Pirate and squid WIP - crits needed

[Pixmaker]

my suggestion is to add some bounced light here and there on the barrels, on the giant squid and the ship's deck. for some reason the light just seems to stop on the sailor. also the moonlight would be a great backlight on the squid, to really make him more threatening. water drops, and highlights on the tentacles would be a nice touch also.

[arielmedel]

I really think you need to add more light reflection from the pirate's lamp, with the distance between the wip and the pirate, there should definitely be some of the lamp's light iluminating the wip, you can add some and the shadow of the pirate would cover part of the wip...

[frog]

Thanks - there was more bounce lighting in previous versions, however I think it's more dramatic with the higher contrast lighting. See these older versions for comparison.

olde version 1:

http://www.itchy-animation.co.uk/sketches/pirate-monster-wip-old.jpg

old version 2

http://www.itchy-animation.co.uk/sketches/pirate-monster-wip-2.jpg

I think in terms of telling the story I prefer to have less light, more contrast, more mystery and more focus on the main elelments - what do you think? I also did try water drips at one point but it seemed to ruin the strong silhouette so I ditched them.

[Pixmaker]

personally i like old verssion number 1. environment is part of the story. with such strong contrast the enviornment gets lost

[arielmedel]

I think a combination of the three would produce a better one, cause each one has something good, the first one makes the wip look more menancing cause you can't see it clearly, number 2's lighting makes more sense, and number three has good lighting on the pirate.

When I recommended more light I didn't mean like lighting the picture up, just some reflections. I think looking at a real source would help. Maybe rent pirates of the caribean and look at how light looks, it'll help you.

Your image looks good, but research on this might help your image look perfect and more professional. :)

[arielmedel]

This is what I mean in a very rough example... Hope you don't mind, just wanna help :)

http://ariel_medel.tripod.com/tirar.jpg

[frog]

Thanks for the feedback - it's pretty unanimous then, I'll tone down the extreme contrast and add some more of the lamp light into the environment. I'll post an update when it's done. :D

[frog]

OK - I've pulled the contrast back and added some highlights from the lamp into the scene:

http://www.itchy-animation.co.uk/sketches/pirate-monster-wip-4.jpg

[Greenham]

This is much better, but I think you still need to add a (subtle) orange tinge to the highlights you've just added. The light from a flame is generally orange (depending what's burning) and should appear orange as it's reflected from the barrels and deck. At the moment, you're trying to cast the ship in moonlight (bluish-white light), and ignore the much more prominent light source, the lamp.

[frog]

But the highlights I've just added are orange. I don't really want to bathe the scene in a bright orange glow, the deck is not the focal point of the image.

We can assume the lamp has a very high falloff ;) and if not then artistic license can take precedence, no need to be too literal.

[arielmedel]

I like the sky very much, could you post images of 3 or 4 steps you used to make it if you can or give a quick explanation?

[pongstah]

Tentacles look flat, maybe put some backlight on them too.

Nice compostion! :D

[frog]

I've made a quick 3D model to help me to work out some of the lighting:

http://www.itchy-animation.co.uk/sketches/lighting-render.jpg

I'll do a version of the painting that incorporates some of this, although I am worried all those shadows might detract from the story and characters, but we'll see how it looks.

[frog]

I like the sky very much, could you post images of 3 or 4 steps you used to make it if you can or give a quick explanation?

Sure:

step 1, draw moon and a circular gradient going out from it:

http://www.itchy-animation.co.uk/sketches/sky-1.jpg

Step 2:

use a custom brush to create some milky way/nebula type texture (obviously not realistic but makes it look more lyrical)

http://www.itchy-animation.co.uk/sketches/sky-2.jpg

Step 3:

added some curves contrast and a linear gradient in overlay mode to darken the top and lighten the bottom

http://www.itchy-animation.co.uk/sketches/sky-3.jpg

Finally, added some stars using a custom brush that scatters them around randomly changing the size:

http://www.itchy-animation.co.uk/sketches/sky-4.jpg

[frog]

I've done a rough version of how the light could look on the floor:

http://www.itchy-animation.co.uk/sketches/pirate-monster-wip-5.jpg

Now I could spend some time integrating it so it looks as if it really is lighting that floor, but I do have misgivings. In terms of composition I think it would be better to leave it out, so that the lighting is used to highlight the pirate's face and the squid, the light on the floor is distracting to my eyes and overcomplicates it - the staging is better in the previous version.

[arielmedel]

Thanks Frog!!!

[frog]

I want the lighting in this image to serve the design and composition, to tell the story and to focus the viewer's attention on the characters, so this is how I planned the composition to work when I did my thumbnails:

http://www.itchy-animation.co.uk/sketches/composition-diagram.jpg

The lamp and colour contrast immediately pull the eye to the pirate, then the high contrast in the moon/tentacles lead the eye up, and finally the monster's eyes, being the next brightest point lead the eye to them. The direction of the squid's gaze leads back down to the pirate in a little circle, hopefully creating an effective composition

The environment also plays a part, and the purpose of the deck and barrels is to provide a little depth, a sense of place and to lead the eye in towards the characters. Even the pirate's shadow, pointing the "wrong" way is leading in to the pirate and the squid, the barrels and the floorboards also lead to the squid.

So having lighting that might be more physically correct is no good if it doesn't serve the design, and in this case the light needs to be on the character, not the deck.

Anyway, I hope this clarifies my thinking, let me know if you disagree. :D

[stuh505]

Hey Frog,

I like the lighting in this last one the best. I still think you have some lighting issues...you need to find a compromise between the high contrast and the reflected lighting. As it stands, the pure blackness of the giant squid just looks like you haven't finished drawing it yet. My second crit is that the pirate looks too purple, and has a lot more brightness and less contrast than anything else in the picture...so basically tone down the pirate, and tone up the squid.

Oh, one more thing..the squid is highlited in blue moonlight, the pirate in warm lantern light...both look good indiv, but they look off together

Something like this
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/8161/pirateeditxe6.jpg

[frog]

Well, I did the ultimate test: I showed the different variations to my wife (always a good test of what a non-technical person thinks), and she agrees with all of you rather than me.

So I'm working on a new version with more lighting around the deck and the squid:

http://www.itchy-animation.co.uk/sketches/pirate-monster-wip-7.jpg

The light on the deck is a rough for now, I'll need to paint it so that it looks like it really belongs there, at the moment it's too soft and airbrushy.

[frog]

Latest update:

http://www.itchy-animation.co.uk/sketches/pirate-monster-wip-8.jpg

[kanikasehgal]

hey frog...

i like the look and the feel of the concept...but i feel that it lacks depth at the edges of the ship/boat..may be because its not complete yet.
Anyways, its quiet nice...

[arielmedel]

I think you went a little too far on the squid lightning reflection from the lamp. Darken it a bit. Also you are forgetting that by the way the pirate is holding the lamp, he would reflect a shadow upon the squid. Don't forget that it's very important... It's looking would but you need to fix that and to balance your lighting, it's looking too bright in places it shouldn't and too dark in places it shouldn't...

[frog]

Latest update:

http://www.itchy-animation.co.uk/sketches/pirate-monster-wip-9.jpg

[arielmedel]

It's looking very good. Someone mentioned that the pirate had too much purple and this makes him look like it's pasted in there. I think you need to incorporate it into the picture. MAybe trow some brown into the pirate's shadows...

Also, I like that you put a rope on one of the barrels, maybe make it bigger, ship's ropes are thick and big. If you add more details like that one it'll help you're image...

Another thing I'd recomment is that at the end you look at it for a while, detaching yourself from what you like about the image, and level the colors so everyting comes together as one picture...

Oh, I just noticed, the pirates edges are somewhat diffuminated and the squid's aren't... make them the same so they look like they are in the same place...

[arielmedel]

He, another one... I feel that the image has few elements, I propose 2 more, a bit of sea as background and fog.. fog will make it look pretty cool, it'll also explain why the pirate looks like he can't see a thing (in a moonlit night)

[JGott]

im not a very good person to talk to about hues, but i do know this , You do have two very strong light soarces A. the moon, and B the light I think they are fighting with each other.
and the boat wouldnt be so Black if you did have those two lstrong ight sources i think the boat would rather be very litten up.



what i would do if i had knowlegde of hues , is get rid of one of the light soarses for a stronger composistion , or lighten up the boat and get rid of the black to balance out the confusion that i get.

but keep up the good work , its better than what i can do with a computer :/

[frog]

I think the boat can be black, the lamp will have a very strong falloff - meaning it is very bright initially but fades and becomes dim quickly.

[Shiaine]

You say the boat can be black. But if that boat would be dark, wouldn't the squid not reflect any light either? Because the boat and the squid are at the same distance. But in this case, the squid does reflect a lot of light. It's a bit of a weird combination at the moment.

I do think that you've chosen very hard circumstances for your painting. I think the best way to solve the problem is to both lighten the boat just a tiny bit and tone the highlights on the squid down a little. Not too much, because a squid would indeed reflect more light than the boat would.

I have to say a few positive things about your painting as well: I love the expression on the captain's face and I like the setting as well. I think the lighting has improved a lot since the beginning as well.

[frog]

The squid could possibly be brighter than the boat because it is wet and therefore would have some strong specular reflection, whereas the wood on the boat would have diffuse reflection - but physics is not what art is about :D I made the squid brighter because he is more important to the story.

I could add another lamp on the side of the ship to satisfy the laws of physics of course. I'll consider it.

[Shiaine]

To talk about the physics part for just a bit more: the squid would have to look wet, for that. Like: little specks of light instead of one big part. But really, I'm just nitpicking. I do think this looks really good so far, and if I wasn't paying special attention to the lighting I doubt I would even have noticed all this stuff.

I must say that I really like how you did the boat with the ropes and the barrels and stuff.

[JGott]

I put my hand over to cover the moon and i think it made quite a difference,
if you could try cutting the moon out for a second and show it on here i want to see what happens to it just for an experiment.( if you want to).

and in doing so i think you would still achieve your triangle effect your going for

because it will be the lantern light, the squid and the face. ( those are you main focus's are they not?

I can already tell it is night out just by the fact he is holding a lantern.

you don't need need to show the moon to tell me its night out :) ( and the moon doesnt have to be in that spot either.) ( the moon isnt one of you characters anyways so dont make it a focus)

honestly, from what i see you are over complicating things by adding another soarce of light :/
i think it will make it easier on your self if you just had the lantern , the squid and the man.



and im not nessasarly saying to move the moon but the balance of the image is very very leftsided sort to speak.




but hey its only a suggestion :/

keep up the good work :D
critique me when you have a chance :D

[arielmedel]

I understand your point and I respect you for standing by it. I only want to say one thing before I stop replying to this thread. In this kind of art, maybe not in abstract art, but in this kind of art, whatever you do that goes by creative license must look natural, which means that you have to trick the viewer into believing that the way you're portaying things is the way things would look. Your piece is great in many aspects but it doesn't do what I just said. It's pretty apparent there are lighting problems, and they look unnatural, not falling within the range of creative license.

Please don't be upset by what I'm saying, but if you don't believe me or the other guys that are pointing out these things, I recommend you find an art tutor, a guy that has mastered this kind of art and he'll help you better than us.

If you're doing this just for fun then forget about what we've said, but if you want to be like those guys making those awesome images for video games, movies, comics or whatever, then you outha listen to these kind of remarks...

Very quick, a story, years ago I wanted to break into the comic book business, but neither did my ability or my creativity would get me there. It didn't matter how much of an artist I wanted to be. They have their standards, at the time I didn't match them. And what I lacked was not a sense of art, it was that I wasn't paying attention to technical aspects.

From that I've learned something, first you got to play by the rules, learn them before making them your own... and I also learned that if I had listened to all the people pointing technical details to me, I'd be in the business now. Now I have other responsabilities so I don't have time to put together a good portfolio (and I also lost the desire to make comics)

Best of luck man...

[frog]

Arielmedel - please don't get me wrong, I appreciate your critiques and I don't find them upsetting at all.

I naturally design my images to focus on what I consider are the important aspects, and I do consider lighting to be very important, in fact I wrote this article:

http://www.itchy-animation.co.uk/light.htm

At the same time, I don't think it's always necessary to be totally literal - that's not to say I can't be wrong or I don't make mistakes, because of course I do. I listen to all the crits, even if I don't agree with them. I've ended up adding all this extra lighting to the image against my own judgement as a result of what people have said on this thread - to explore other possibilities.

But honestly, I don't take any of the comments personally. If I've sounded defensive, I honestly haven't meant to - I'm just voicing my thoughts, that's all.

[frog]

latest update:

http://www.itchy-animation.co.uk/sketches/pirate-monster-wip-10.jpg

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