Request: Character Riggers/Animators

[Larry_g1s]

I've just recently been joining the forum and presently going through Jason Ryan's (http://www.jasonryananimation.com) Ramp Up videos (and as soon as the sites up, his tutorials too). He's using Maya, but has a brief maya overview video. The ramp up videos are fantstic, so I'm very much looking forward to the final tutorials, and eventually translating the principles back to LightWave (got nothing but love for LW). As soon as I can do that...I'll join the monthly contests.

It's really a great forum, you got guys like Jason Ryan (Animation Supervisor at Dreamworks), many Animation Mentor students & grads, etc. who post, and I too would love to see more LW artist on!

I also posted a link to the AM like models & rigs found on the SpinQuad forum sometime back, on one of the threads: http://www.11secondclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=539

- Larry_g1s

[royg]

Why bother when there are some absolutely amazing rigs out there already?

[proton]

For the simple fact that there are none on the site itself. It makes it an easy resource for artists to go to the site, download the latest audio clip, choose from a collection of rigged characters and get a quick start.

If you know someonethat has a great rig in LW ready to go that they have donated to the community, request that they add it to the site.

I see nothing but good things coming from it.

I've sent a few rigs and plan on sending in more...looking forward to seeingsome LightWave users participate in future sessions!

[Larry_g1s]

Why bother when there are some absolutely amazing rigs out there already? I total agree with Proton. I think it can only be beneficial for me to learn some of Maya going through Jason Ryan's tutorials, but at the end of the day...I just really enjoy LightWave as a 3D app. So I look forward to soon representing some animation talent through LW.

[Brötje]

I'm in! I need to brush up my 3D animation skills very urgently! And it would be a nice opportunity to learn something about rigging, in wich I totally suck.

[T4D]

Why not just upload one of the character rigs on the LW 9 content CD ?

there not bad .

[joshcxa]

Awesome idea. I love that site
I found this today. I'm thinking using it. Plenty of facial morphs and the rig seems great!

http://www.nemac4.com/Gen_Rigs/

Edit: I see that is one of the rigs posted in a link to the forum above.

[INFINITE]

Why bother when there are some absolutely amazing rigs out there already?

There are?

[JeffrySG]

Don't really do much animation, myself, but I think this is a great idea! This would only help the LW community!

William, have you posted a request on the NT forums? You might reach different people there.

ps. I wasn't familiar with the website, so thanks for the intro to it also! :)

[royg]

There are?There are, but for other packages ;) I haven't seen a rig (free or otherwise) in Lightwave that can match the responsiveness / control of most of the half-decent free Maya rigs. I just don't quite see the point of people making / submitting Lightwave rigs when someone can just download Maya PLE and use any number of great rigs already. Particularly when this is for the 11 Second Club which is all about learning character animation, something that Lightwave doesn't exactly excell at.

[Shuggs]

I was always curious as to why these types of things weren't available to Lightwave users as there are tons of free rigs for Maya and Max simply because they're more industry standard then Lightwave. If the Lightwave community is to grow, then more things like that AM package need to be available for us. If I had any interest in rigging I'd gladly do this. I'm still trying to learn IK. :D

[Shuggs]

There are, but for other packages ;) I haven't seen a rig (free or otherwise) in Lightwave that can match the responsiveness / control of most of the half-decent free Maya rigs. I just don't quite see the point of people making / submitting Lightwave rigs when someone can just download Maya PLE and use any number of great rigs already. Particularly when this is for the 11 Second Club which is all about learning character animation, something that Lightwave doesn't exactly excell at.

You also have to be sensitive to the fact that Lightwave is a completely different application then Maya. Maya is a monster. The transition from something like Lightwave to Maya or Max isn't that simple. Maya has so many tools for every avenue of the 3D industry plus more, and then some extras just incase you get bored. I found a great site with a lot of free Maya rigs, loaded it up, and couldnt even figure out how to move the rig around.

I always tell people coming into the 3D-world that Lightwave is an awesome program to start from because it doesn't scare you right away. You can get the gist of things (with books, online training, tutorials, etc) in 5-9 months. We're being taught Lightwave at my university, but I have plans to further continue onto Maya/Max through independent studies after I graduate.

So to just tell people 'go use Maya' is a little unfair hence the reason why we need Lightwave models/rigs just the same as the Maya and Max people do.

[bobakabob]

You also have to be sensitive to the fact that Lightwave is a completely different application then Maya. Maya is a monster. The transition from something like Lightwave to Maya or Max isn't that simple. Maya has so many tools for every avenue of the 3D industry plus more, and then some extras just incase you get bored. I found a great site with a lot of free Maya rigs, loaded it up, and couldnt even figure out how to move the rig around.

I always tell people coming into the 3D-world that Lightwave is an awesome program to start from because it doesn't scare you right away. You can get the gist of things (with books, online training, tutorials, etc) in 5-9 months. We're being taught Lightwave at my university, but I have plans to further continue onto Maya/Max through independent studies after I graduate.

So to just tell people 'go use Maya' is a little unfair hence the reason why we need Lightwave models/rigs just the same as the Maya and Max people do.

Agreed. Also it's a myth you can't do character animation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxVuJ7Dryaw)in Lightwave. LW is good for mocap too. Sure there are more specialised CA programs out there but users have different needs and not everyone can afford Maya. LW has a capable (if ageing) basic toolset that will hopefully be updated in the next major release. It's good for the community to share rigs as deconstructing examples is the best way to learn. Rigging from scratch in LW can be hard work at first but CA can still be rewarding and the main principles are broadly similar across all the major apps.

INFINITE,

There are some rigs already out there... check out Jean-Philippe Savariault's Sample Rigs
http://puffandlarkin.com/lightwave/downloads.html
To figure these out make sure you go into scene editor and unlock the main targets to move the limbs. Also not all bones - the leg bones for example - are visible in Layout for some strange reason, but once unlocked you can select them via the scene editor and view them to see how the armature is constructed. Also transfer the figures into Modeler and check out the skelegons which you can use for characters you've modelled yourself. Not tried these rigs myself but they look really useful.

[Castius]

Someone needs to start by posting a model that everyone would like to use. Simple but enough mesh to be exspresive.

[Shuggs]

These are awesome:
http://www.nemac4.com/Gen_Rigs/

Used these for class in place of the model/rig professor gives out. I had 100 times more fun messing with this rig then any other I've had.

[Larry_g1s]

These are awesome:
http://www.nemac4.com/Gen_Rigs/

Used these for class in place of the model/rig professor gives out. I had 100 times more fun messing with this rig then any other I've had.To true. ;)

[T4D]

someone needs to post a rig that's at level of a Maya, Max or XSI rigs becasue you guy are dreaming.

As far as i know,.in LW it can't be do in LW ( I know LW and XSi and Maya pretty well )

doing CA is one thing ( yes it can be done in LW ,.sort like you can build a house with a hammer, but Nail gun is much better :D )

but good and easy CA is not in LW currently
( sorry LW newbies you should have tried a 30 day demo of Maya or Max or XSI before you Got LW for Your CA 3D dreams )

IMO LW's good for everything BUT CA & Major 3D animation projects.

AND DO note I AM using LW currently in a major Project WITH XSI.

[bobakabob]

someone needs to post a rig that's at level of a Maya, Max or XSI rigs becasue you guy are dreaming.

As far as i know,.in LW it can't be do in LW ( I know LW and XSi and Maya pretty well )

doing CA is one thing ( yes it can be done in LW ,.sort like you can build a house with a hammer, but Nail gun is much better :D )

but good and easy CA is not in LW currently
( sorry LW newbies you should have tried a 30 day demo of Maya or Max or XSI before you Got LW for Your CA 3D dreams )

IMO LW's good for everything BUT CA & Major 3D animation projects.

AND DO note I AM using LW currently in a major Project WITH XSI.

TD4, you're right, of course CA in LW isn't as advanced as Max, XSI or Maya (I'm learning animation in XSI myself with the intention of combining with LW and very much enjoying the process). However not everyone runs LW exclusively for CA or can afford the above apps (XSI Foundation or Messiah are the only two economical solutions) and the thread is about CA in LW. You yourself have created pro animations in LW for clients and generously contributed rigs to the LW community so it is at least a capable CA app wouldn't you agree? (IMHO your hammer analogy is a wee bit unfair). Lightwave is very cheap to maintain, has its own strengths as a modeller, texturer and renderer with fast intuitive workflow. Surely that's why 3D artists including yourself keep using it :)

[pooby]

so it is at least a capable CA app wouldn't you agree?

You can make great films in Stop-frame, but it will always look stop-frame, and come with all the limitations. When it was the only way of making 3D characters, It was the best.
BUT now.
CG gives you a massive amount more freedom and allows for practically anything you can think of. The only reason you'd use stop frame is for arty reasons, or because you don't know how to do CG, but not because it's a generally better.

This is the same for LW compared to XSI and Maya etc.

LW was fine for animation when there wasn't a load of better stuff out there overshadowing it, but now its looking a bit feeble because of the comparison to what else is out there.
It's all relative.

[royg]

Agreed. Also it's a myth you can't do character animation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxVuJ7Dryaw)in Lightwave.Absolutely - one can do character animation in Lightwave. I've done a fair bit of it in my time and it certainly is possible. What isn't a myth however, is that there is only one, very limited, undo. Did you delete a keyframe you didn't mean to? Too bad. Did you delete an object in your scene you didn't mean to? Too bad. Did you fiddle around with your timing and want to go back to what you had? Too bad.

My point is, for someone learning character animation I think they should perhaps use a much more user-friendly, responsive rig in a peice of software that is far more condusive to experimentation (regarding testing ideas out, altering timing, deleting keys etc). It doesn't cost anything to get the trial versions of the other packages. Of course, the principles of animation are completely application-independent, but for a beginner they're going to learn faster if they're using a tool that doesn't essentially prohibit experimentation and productive trial-and-error.

[T4D]

Snip_>

However not everyone runs LW exclusively for CA or can afford the above apps (XSI Foundation or Messiah are the only two economical solutions)

snip->
Lightwave is very cheap to maintain, has its own strengths as a modeller, texturer and renderer with fast intuitive workflow. Surely that's why 3D artists including yourself keep using it :)


I agree with everything you said but these 2 statements

1/ CA is more a general term for 3D animation ( if you have gears and motors or complex motion graphics or alot of move, rotation, scale channels IK etc etc, reading, feeding and driving other channels in you 3D scene

THAT is modern 3D animation in 2008 and that is what LW is missing in a big way

CA and rigging is just a term I feel,. and CA is where these things get used the most BUT you can use a good animation system for many MANY other ways that most LW user don;t know about ..

2/ Lightwave is NOT cheap to run,. the plugins you need to be productive inLW ARE NOT CHEAP !!.
maintance in the other packages give you much greater Value for money then a free X.5 update and chasing you tail trying to keep up to date with what's happen on flay and how you use them in production.

YES Lightwave is useful but it's more a plugin to production and other packages then what it used to be.. or should be newtek need a ......

[Skywatcher]

T4D .Simple question ... What's your problem with LightWave ?
If you don't like it. Leave it and stop being negative about it (in all the boards).
You still use it for some mysterious reason. So it's certainly not a plugin.
So if other packages ( Maya,XSi,etc..) are so good why not do all work with that ???
Grow up. ( ...and work on your portfolio ;) . I know, thats below the belt, sorry for that.
But I think you are unfair in your opinion about LW).

[Larry_g1s]

T4D .Simple question ... What's your problem with LightWave ?
If you don't like it. Leave it and stop being negative about it (in all the boards).
You still use it for some mysterious reason. So it's certainly not a plugin.
So if other packages ( Maya,XSi,etc..) are so good why not do all work with that ???
Grow up. ( ...and work on your portfolio ;) . I know, thats below the belt, sorry for that.
But I think you are unfair in your opinion about LW).Agreed. This thread is about LW CA, and making it better. Maya, XSI, etc. might very well be better suited for CA, but LW isn't some weak 3D app., and all of your "LW is a toy compared to "X" app" get's pretty annoying after awhile.

Years back at a CSU Summer arts class where we were using LW, we had a top animator from Pixar come in and lecture. In the down time he started messing around in Layout and animating, he didn't seem to have a problem doing CA in LW. So again, are there better 3D apps suited for CA then LW, probably; but does that mean you can't & shouldn't do CA in LW, obviously not.

[T4D]

Grow up. ( ...and work on your portfolio ;) . I know, thats below the belt, sorry for that.
But I think you are unfair in your opinion about LW).

I'm in Dubai now Not Australia,. & wish i could show you what I'm working on. but ...:deal:
I'm the Head of 3D here & my web images are just my weekend fun stuff that's many years old now..

So I think your comment say's more about you,. then the level of my work.

[Megalodon]

Same old Peter Thomas... never changes and never fails to denigrate LW. Heaven forbid he just decides to say nothing. Oh well....

Gotta slap down that LW and put it in it's place!

[Tama]

Same old Peter Thomas... never changes and never fails to denigrate LW. Heaven forbid he just decides to say nothing. Oh well....

Gotta slap down that LW and put it in it's place!

Yes, he's quite predictable and amusingly bitter about Lightwave.:)

Maybe like the behaviour of a scorned boyfriend of a girl who feels the need to trash her and warn all suitors about how unworthy she is now that he is no longer romantically involved.:cry:

Maybe not...perhaps something darker and more sinister?:twisted:

I have to admit that after reading the cheap shot at his artwork I just had to see what the fuss was about and was a bit disappointed in what I saw.:surprised

[xtrm3d]

Maybe like the behaviour of a scorned boyfriend of a girl who feels the need to trash her and warn all suitors about how unworthy she is now that he is no longer romantically involved.:cry:

or may be he just know what he is talking about ?
befor trashing someone down cause he state his opinion about a software , you might want to look at how much this person did contribute to the said software comunity in the past *.

* in the past, mean at least over 5 to 7 year ago.. and not just the last month or year

[Tama]

or may be he just know what he is talking about ?
befor trashing someone down cause he state his opinion about a software , you might want to look at how much this person did contribute to the said software comunity in the past *.

* in the past, mean at least over 5 to 7 year ago.. and not just the last month or year

It is his behaviour that is being questioned and commented on, not his opinion or whether he is correct or whether he has talent (which he obviously does have plenty of with regards to rigging at least) It pertains to how he continues to overstate his "opinion" like a broken record and as frequently as possible. Perhaps he just likes the attention he gets by finding any opportunity to play the Johnny One Note routine regarding this topic.

And just for the record, just because someone contributes greatly doesn't give them a special status as as forum poster. If the other members of this forum are amused by his tendencies, then he should be a big enough man to handle a bit of having fun poked at him for his predictable posting on this topic which are for the most well informed yet redundant. He just appears to be stuck in some type of compulsive do loop.

I have no disagreement that LW is quite a far cry in it's CA abilties compared to Maya and XSI. Duh!

[Megalodon]

or may be he just know what he is talking about ?
befor trashing someone down cause he state his opinion about a software , you might want to look at how much this person did contribute to the said software comunity in the past *.

* in the past, mean at least over 5 to 7 year ago.. and not just the last month or year

As Tama said... it has NOTHING to do with opinion of LW. Hell, as I said most of us agree with it. I've agreed with Pooby here as well as Jin and Stooch over at Newtek. I am just sick and tired (and have been so for the last couple of years) at T4D's constant criticism of LW. He rarely misses an opportunity to slap at LW and tell everyone how bad it is.

We are just sick, sick, sick of it.

And about what he has done for the community.....? I could NOT care less. Do you remember Brad Peebler? He used to work at Newtek and then he and the original programmers left and started Lux. He got on the LW Yahoo list and started trying to sell his wares. Some of us did not like this as it was a LW list and not a "come here and sell your software" list. But some said "Oh just let Brad sell what he wants because" HE'S DONE SO MUCH FOR THE COMMUNITY. So? He was selling a competing product. The list would not have allowed the president of AutoDesk to start selling Max. Why Brad? Oh... because he's BRAD. "F" that.

Same here. I don't care what T4D has done. Imagine this really nice guy who dates your sister (who for arguments sake has a "loose" reputation) for seven years and then breaks up with her. Then he starts trashing her every chance he gets. Would you like that? Does he have a right to his opinion? Yes. Might it be right? Yes. Does he have to say it EVERY CHANCE he gets? Not really.

That's all we're saying.

[T4D]

must add it's funny poeple with no profile images and don't even show there real names have so much to say about what i post. ??

this reads like people are debating over sporting teams

for me anyway it's software that you pay for !!, ( to make money from OR parttime fun )

it's a tool not a Religion it's not let's support the local team, no matter how much they suck is it ?.

but it seems some have a much different idea on what they get or join when they buy a peice of software ??

well what left to say but " the world is a amazing place " :D

I do love the fact some seem to think my artwork sucks,. LOL :D
I showed this thread to some workmates thanks for the laugh guys ,I should book mark this page .:applause:

[artificiallightmovement]

This thread is turning into a bummer. Go drink some beer, everybody.

[Shuggs]

must add it's funny poeple with no profile images and don't even show there real names have so much to say about what i post. ??


I fail to see the reasoning behind this statement. What in the world does that have to do with anything? People without names or profile pictures cannot state their opinion? Riiiiight.

Anyway.


So, how bout those rigs and characters?

[Megalodon]

Do you just intentionally sidestep the issue or just have no idea?

HOW MANY TIMES have many here said WE AGREE PETER... LW needs LOTS of work. We just don't need YOU telling us EVERY SINGLE TIME. That's all. Plain and simple. And... THAT's THE ONLY PROBLEM! Get it?

LW is not a religion. Why do you try to pigeonhole people who want you to stop berating LW CONSTANTLY into LW fanboys? Do I know that XSI is better for CA than LW. Of course I do - I'm NOT blind.

But my question is... why is it that YOU have to keep pounding this stuff into us year after year? Does your ego require you to put something down in order to elevate yourself? Take a lesson from Pooby. Here is a guy who we KNOW uses and enjoys working with XSI. He has also detailed LW's shortcomings - but he does not do so at every bend and turn in the road. I listen to HIM (and respect him) because he has shown evenhandedness in the "LW to other software" discussions. Whereas YOU must belittle LW every chance you get.

Oh and please keep showing threads such as this to those who you work with. Of course you'll get honest opinions from those who work under you.

And yes, "the world IS and amazing place," filled with lots of people who would rather NOT hear your negative diatribes about LW in SO MANY threads. And I personally have not looked at your artwork and do not care if it is good OR bad. IMO that has nothing to do with what this side discussion has been about. But then you never seem to really listen anyway, do you? You decide to ignore the issue go off on a tangent.

Too bad.

And I've made LOTS of money with LW. Could I have done so with XSI or Max or Maya or C4D or trueSpace or Blender? Yup. But I use LW and enjoy it. It works for me. Is it the end-all be-all of 3D software? Not for me and probably anyone else. But I (and apparently others) don't need to hear you keep reminding us at every turn - which is the entire reason for posting in this thread.

Good day sir!

[Megalodon]

This thread is turning into a bummer. Go drink some beer, everybody.

How do you think I started in this thread?

[Castius]

T4D, you have to admit you have a great nac for posting on these forums and completly throwing them off topic.

I'm still hoping some people will start posting some models.

[ThE_JacO]

This was a very amusing thread. Thanks to all involved for the show.
Now... if it could be brought back to the realms of 3D it would be nice.

T4D was probably wrong in how he posted what he did (choice of thread too I'd say), but that
DOES NOT entitle anybody to question his portfolio or his ethics openly.

If you don't like how a CGS member conducts himself either talk this kind of stuff through in PM and/or report a post that you consider inflamatory.
If somebody's posts get reported enough you can bet forum leaders and administrators do take notice, and we usually have a chat with the person in question, and eventually issue a warning if the contents or the person really got out of hand (outright bans take a long time and a lot of stressing it).

Blurting out personal stuff in a thread doesn't help the thread, the forum, the community and definitely doesn't do much to make somebody change his mind. You basically make an even bigger mistake than the one you're trying to address.

Now please go on with your scheduled programs... what was it again? Boxing? :p

[Shuggs]

This was a very amusing thread. Thanks to all involved for the show.
Now... if it could be brought back to the realms of 3D it would be nice.

T4D was probably wrong in how he posted what he did (choice of thread too I'd say), but that
DOES NOT entitle anybody to question his portfolio or his ethics openly.

If you don't like how a CGS member conducts himself either talk this kind of stuff through in PM and/or report a post that you consider inflamatory.
If somebody's posts get reported enough you can bet forum leaders and administrators do take notice, and we usually have a chat with the person in question, and eventually issue a warning if the contents or the person really got out of hand (outright bans take a long time and a lot of stressing it).

Blurting out personal stuff in a thread doesn't help the thread, the forum, the community and definitely doesn't do much to make somebody change his mind. You basically make an even bigger mistake than the one you're trying to address.

Now please go on with your scheduled programs... what was it again? Boxing? :p

Agreed. I don't care how notarious the man is for calling out LW all the time. Attacking someone's work and portfolio is distasteful. That's just something you don't do as an artist. Everyone should know better then that.

[Tama]

Agreed. I don't care how notarious the man is for calling out LW all the time. Attacking someone's work and portfolio is distasteful. That's just something you don't do as an artist. Everyone should know better then that.

All kidding aside, who cares if T4D's work sucks or not.:) I probably wouldn't hire him for a modeler position based on what I've seen but apparently he has really great skills in other departments such as rigging. :bowdown:

I'd really like to see T4D post a LWave rig even if it is one of his older contributions from 5 or 7 years ago.:lightbulb It doesn't have to be as nice a LW rig as some of the others already posted here but posting LW rigs is what this topic was all about to begin with.:wavey:

[INFINITE]

Hi, yes I checked those rigs out years ago. Fantastic for low poly characters.

Pretty useless for high end work. Dont get me wrong, I love Lightwave, in fact I adore Lightwave but it just doesnt cut the mustard ( Yet ) with character animation. It doesnt have even the basic tools or support for this type of work. Great for zanny wacky cartoon characters but not for serious realistic life like deformation.

If you can show me some great realistic character work done in Lightwave ( with ace deformations using the standard bones and weight system ) I will eat my wardobe of hats ( I've only got 2 : )

Cheers

Lee

BTW havent read the whole thread but guys go easy.

[/url]T4D: Dont take any commments to serious dude, you have done some amazing work over the years. Forums can be very harsh sometimes and also some members ( they know who they are ; ) Just keep doing your thang!




Agreed. Also it's a myth you can't do [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxVuJ7Dryaw"]character animation (http://forums.cgsociety.org/member.php?u=22645)in Lightwave. LW is good for mocap too. Sure there are more specialised CA programs out there but users have different needs and not everyone can afford Maya. LW has a capable (if ageing) basic toolset that will hopefully be updated in the next major release. It's good for the community to share rigs as deconstructing examples is the best way to learn. Rigging from scratch in LW can be hard work at first but CA can still be rewarding and the main principles are broadly similar across all the major apps.

INFINITE,

There are some rigs already out there... check out Jean-Philippe Savariault's Sample Rigs
http://puffandlarkin.com/lightwave/downloads.html
To figure these out make sure you go into scene editor and unlock the main targets to move the limbs. Also not all bones - the leg bones for example - are visible in Layout for some strange reason, but once unlocked you can select them via the scene editor and view them to see how the armature is constructed. Also transfer the figures into Modeler and check out the skelegons which you can use for characters you've modelled yourself. Not tried these rigs myself but they look really useful.

[bobakabob]

Hi, yes I checked those rigs out years ago. Fantastic for low poly characters.

Pretty useless for high end work. Dont get me wrong, I love Lightwave, in fact I adore Lightwave but it just doesnt cut the mustard ( Yet ) with character animation. It doesnt have even the basic tools or support for this type of work. Great for zanny wacky cartoon characters but not for serious realistic life like deformation.

If you can show me some great realistic character work done in Lightwave ( with ace deformations using the standard bones and weight system ) I will eat my wardobe of hats ( I've only got 2 : )

Cheers

Lee

BTW havent read the whole thread but guys go easy.

T4D: Dont take any commments to serious dude, you have done some amazing work over the years. Forums can be very harsh sometimes and also some members ( they know who they are ; ) Just keep doing your thang!

I can't remember if anyone posted this already but Tudor's rig is still available - though it's going back a bit! ;)

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=32891

(I'd post some of my own characters but they are basic IK rigs and not on a par with those on this thread).

Pooby has eloquently summed up the CA issues in Lightwave over the years and given the LW community insight into XSI as an animation solution. Having previously tried out Messiah and despite being really impressed I've decided instead to learn animation in XSI since the inclusion of Point Oven is a gift for Lightwavers (and the modelling tools are also rather impressive). Btw I agree with everything say about LW. Of all the 3d apps it's an expressive toolset which allows fast intuitive creativity and doesn't require fighting through endless clunky inspiration killing panels (yes, my first and nearly last encounter with 3d was Max in 1998). So I really don't see any need to 'migrate' as LW + XSI work so well and LW's recent development is currently so promising. I still maintain animating in LW can be enjoyable and instructive (despite the undo issue!) but I'd be the first to admit I'm no CA specialist and it's most enlightening to see what affordable solutions are out there. Mercifully I'm finding everything I learned about rigging in LW is transferable. If your first loyalty is to your creativity (and whose isn't?) XSI and / or Messiah are presently the way to go.

[T4D]

LW Rig here (http://www.thomas4d.com/T4D_Fred_Demo_Rig.zip) This is very old and is still on my website

INFINITE you said it prefectly I agree completely. but If I posted that,.. it would have started it all again LOL ;)

and yes I don't give a hoot what people say,
Too busy, been doing 3D
too many years
too well know for speaking my mind
too well paid to care :cool:


http://thomas4d.com/assets/images/T4DDemo.jpg

[Larry_g1s]

INFINITE you said it prefectly I agree completely. but If I posted that,.. it would have started it all again LOL ;) The problem would have been how you presented it...which has been the argument of this whole later half of this thread. ;)

Thanks for sharing the rig.

[vonbon]

did this a while back, not my model.

http://www.opaqueproductions.com/Downloads/Setup_Adv.zip (http://www.opaqueproductions.com/Do...s/Setup_Adv.zip)

hehe, animation sucks, and it aint setup all pretty like Mr. T4D

[Patorak]

Rigging sucks in lightwave? Great, I wish someone would have said something before I modeled this figure.

[bobakabob]

Rigging sucks in lightwave? Great, I wish someone would have said something before I modeled this figure.

Why not try some of the rigs above? Have you checked out the LW content CD for rigs? Also check out this thread on the Newtek site http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66137

[Patorak]

Why not try some of the rigs above? Have you checked out the LW content CD for rigs? Also check out this thread on the Newtek site http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66137 (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66137)

Sounds like a plan. I'll try them out and post an update tomorrow.

[Lino Grandi]

This looks like a good challenge. Talking is zero....and easy....showing and doing really matters. So....let's wait for someone to post some "advanced" LW rig....then we can really talk about it. What I'm asking is....can someone post the features of an advanced rig?This could really be an intresting topic IMHO.

[vonbon]

I agree with Lino somewhat.

I would like to see what someone from either XSI, MAX, or Maya considers to be an advanced rig and most importantly the process they use to get there, actually i would like to see all three. Video would be great. Especially want to see one from T4D in XSI, and im not trying to sarcastic T. Just wanna see why xsi is so much better for animation.

Files would be even better since we can download trails of each program "i think", and also each will be with no plugins, just the package u buy from the company.

I think then we should have a better idea of what people outside of the LW community are expecting from LW's animation system or lack of.

Maybe this should be another thread.

[vonbon]

just really payed attention to what the thread was about. Looked at the website and there are no LW rigs. The rigs i see in the resource section, just at a glance without using them i wouldnt consider them "Advanced". actually i think LW is very capable of doing what i see so far.

Im thinking yall talking about Incedible hulk type stuff :p "now that i wouldnt try in LW" or any program, lol. at least not by myself.

question, can i post that rig i posted earlier in the thread. Though it is not my model. I cant remember who made it but i got it off of this website or do i have to have an original model.

or if some has a model, i'll try an rig it, it'll probly look like a mess though, dont know how to make control interfaces and stuff.

[cresshead]

if i were struggling with lw for character animation i'd probably go and start using blender now we've seen what it can deliver in regards character animation with the Big Buck Bunny short...some of those rigs look pretty darn well set up to me.

myself?...well i'm quite usless at rigging but i have 3dsmax to lean on ...so i ususally drag out a biped rig as it's unbreakable and you can apply mo cap with the click of a button, layer animation and canvert back to footstep driven animatiion with another click...
that's why 3dsmax got such attention from me when i chose my fisrst pro 3d app back in 1999.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaFYsVhNWuk

[proton]

Here are a few LW rigs I love animating with:
ftp://ftp.newtek.com/multimedia/movies/w3dw/Rigs/

I tried getting them in the resource section on 11 second club with no luck so I plugged them in their forum:

http://www.11secondclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=1762

[Patorak]

Thanks for the links. Would it be all right to build my rig using the generic rig as a base? As for rigging, during coffee break and lunch, I was observing women walking and I've got a pretty good idea of how I'd like her to move. I was wondering though, is it better to weight map first then bone or bone first then weight map?

[royg]

I agree with Lino somewhat.

I would like to see what someone from either XSI, MAX, or Maya considers to be an advanced rig.Download Victor Vinyals (http://www.luvictu.com/)' demoreel - his business man rig is great.

Files would be even better since we can download trails of each program "i think", and also each will be with no plugins, just the package u buy from the company.Here are some rigs worth looking at for maya:
Moom (http://www.highend3d.com/maya/downloads/character_rigs/MooM-By-Ramtin-5067.html)
Great Dane (http://www.highend3d.com/maya/downloads/character_rigs/Great-Dane-4835.html)
Andy (http://www.highend3d.com/maya/downloads/character_rigs/The-Andy-Rig-4697.html)

[T4D]

http://www.thomas4d.com/legexsample.rar

simple toon Leg rig in XSI

and royg is right there are ALOT of rigging Showreels out there showing many amazing ways you can rig a character in Max, Maya, Messiah, Blender and XSI...

[fez]

T4D,

Sweet demo. Can you easily add bones for bendy effects? Do you have plans to make a suite of Character Rigging tools available for XSI?

[T4D]

T4D,

Sweet demo. Can you easily add bones for bendy effects?

Yes, you have ALOT of options in XSI and Maya etc so there's alot of different ways to set it up.

Do you have plans to make a suite of Character Rigging tools available for XSI?

Yes i have it here and using it ( for many months now ),.

BUT I will not release it publicly untill i have full doc's and tutorials
( I learnt enough lesson with my LW Rigging tools )

[Julez4001]

Lightwave need more rigging and character animated tutorials (BLUR Studios Marvel Superhero genre) available in the same vein as Protons 100 tutorials kick he produced last year.

LW still has (and rightfully deserved) stigma as not being a character animation tool for serious game/movie production. No one is using it for its character animation tool ...they are either importing from XSI, Messiah or Maya. Its 2008 and we are still having these conversations because the contentof them have so much weight and not because we just like to har ourselves talking. Can LW do character animation? Yes... its it easy and intuitive and unforgiving (easy to make corrections)...no.

[Sil3]

Until LW be able to mix in a Rig more than Nulls and Bones, Advanced Rigging will be to forget in LW IMO.

Its not really the Animation part of things that give a bad reputation to LW regarding CA, its the workflow of the tools that wont allow anything more than Basic IK-Fk Rigs that are way beyond of whats needed today (and the past couple of years to be honest).

We are in the time of Strech and Squash and change Volumes and Forms all the time to have a more Organic look, and this demands a lot from a Rig, every software out there can make a 4 Bone Chains and make them IK and then place another two bpones to make the Neck and Head are the easy part, combining that with Morphs, Corrective Morphs, Curves, Expressions etc is whats needed nowadays and if this is clumbersome or almost impossible to do then the appeal to use such a tool is lost... 1999 was almost a decade ago... clients are a lot more demanding today.

[Kid-Mesh]

Interesting thread....

Over at the 11 second club it's really all about dialogue and acting. So the main concern here would be facial morphs and being able to get as many shapes in the face that you can.

The rig's wouldnt have to be suited to peform complex movements for heavy action and what not. Acting is all about subtley anyway :shrug:

Watch some of the clips and check the range of motion on the characters. There is no reason why a LW rig couldnt compete over there. We have excellent tools for morphs and whatnot.

Regardless, all this talk about Maya, XSI, etc being better....jeez. It's not the tool it's the animator/artist...always has been.

Even with the most advanced tools at your disposal. If you dont know what your doing your animation will look like shyt anyway. I'd take an experience home builder with a hammer over a newbie with a nail gun any day of the week.

Anyway...Post a few Lightwave rigs and they will come. So stop talking and get'er done...I wanna play with one!

Especially if it's going to be one of Proton's models :twisted: Hell...why not get Larry aka Spline God to rig it for godsake?

[Shuggs]

On the first and second page of this thread, there is a link I and another person posted that gives access to models and rigs similarly close to those given in the Animation Mentor on-line school. Not only are those rigs excellent, but the one comes with 92 morphs. Everything from the eyebrows to the tongue. I don't know how much more people want in a model and rig than that to be honest. I used the models for a class lip syncing project and it turned out great. There are plenty of rigs already listed throughout the thread. Download all of them and see which ones work out best for you.

Actually here's the link: http://www.nemac4.com/Gen_Rigs/

Get them before the link either A.) Get broken, or B.) The person takes them down. These are excellent, and about as close to the Animation Mentor models/rigs you're going to get.

[erikals]

It does look good, there's a thread talking about it here,...
http://www.spinquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12458

yup, some of the links are down, you can get some files from the above link though.

[Shuggs]

To help even more with those models/rigs:

Plug-Ins: http://thespread.riot-inc.com/_theoldspread/ ( "LayersMC" and "Portable Timeline" plug-ins)
PLG Plug-ins: http://homepage2.nifty.com/nif-hp/index2_english.htm

Zipped Files: http://www.spinquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12458&page=17

Be merry and go animate. :)

[royg]

Regardless, all this talk about Maya, XSI, etc being better....jeez. It's not the tool it's the animator/artist...always has been.

Even with the most advanced tools at your disposal. If you dont know what your doing your animation will look like shyt anyway. I'd take an experience home builder with a hammer over a newbie with a nail gun any day of the week.Please (re)read my post here (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=5196799&postcount=21).

[erikals]

Thanx, and this one... http://whites.sakura.ne.jp/lw/plug_ins/pose_index.htm ;)

[Shuggs]

Thanx, and this one... http://whites.sakura.ne.jp/lw/plug_ins/pose_index.htm ;)

Now that is an awesome plug-in. Is there an English translation though?

[erikals]

Now that is an awesome plug-in. Is there an English translation though?

Nah, don't think it is...
There is Google translator though, helps a bit, :)
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwhites.sakura.ne.jp%2Flw%2Fplug_ins%2Fpose_index.htm+&sl=ja&tl=en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

[Kid-Mesh]

Please (re)read my post here (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=5196799&postcount=21).

My post wasnt directed at anyone in particular especially not you.

[Patorak]

Thanx, and this one... http://whites.sakura.ne.jp/lw/plug_ins/pose_index.htm (http://whites.sakura.ne.jp/lw/plug_ins/pose_index.htm) ;)

Thank you for the link. This is just what I've been looking for. OK, after researching the female in motion. I'm ready! I've completed the weight mapping, blurred them and normalized them too. Next, I'll start rigging. Now, I want to thank everyone again for the links to the rigs. They are great. I've tried them all on my mesh. But, I've come to the conclusion that I need to make a rig. My main goal being that the pelvis will swing like a pendulum when she walks.

[royg]

My post wasnt directed at anyone in particular especially not you.Huh? I didn't think it was - I was pointing you to a post I made that discusses issues with the tool... for a learner or beginner, the tool does make a difference - at least to a degree.

[toonafish]

Huh? I didn't think it was - I was pointing you to a post I made that discusses issues with the tool... for a learner or beginner, the tool does make a difference - at least to a degree.

Of course it does, otherwise everyone would be using Blender or Povray.

[RobertoOrtiz]

Guys Let keep the thread positive.

We dont need to fight the freaking ALAMO all over again every freaking time Lightwave character animation topics are posted here.

[Patorak]

Here's the start on the rigging. How's this for a hip and knee bend?

[Julez4001]

The knee joint deformation is looking good, Patr .... keep up the good work.

[INFINITE]

it would be ace if Newtek actualy spent the time to listen to it's users and perhaps revamp the rigging tools. Even just adding morph shape blending similar to Max would ba a huge difference. There is nothing in Lightwave that can do this correctly, especialy in the Layout viewport.

Newtek could learn a thing or to from Pooby. He is the god of XSI rigging and animation, his facial rigs are out of this world. I personaly dont want to have to move over to XSI but I may do perminantly if Newtek cant solve this problem.

Newtek, listen to your loyal users! Plz! :banghead:

I am still ready to eat my hat, no one so far as shown any evidence that Lightwave can do realistic rigs.

[Patorak]

Thanks. I'll move on to the ankles and toes. Also, I'm pre planning the animation and I was wondering if I should go mocap. I'm thinking about a front and side video of a female dancing. Set up nulls on her joints, then parent my rig to the nulls. If I do this are there any Lightwave glitches I should be prepared for?

[Tama]

Thanks. I'll move on to the ankles and toes. Also, I'm pre planning the animation and I was wondering if I should go mocap. I'm thinking about a front and side video of a female dancing. Set up nulls on her joints, then parent my rig to the nulls. If I do this are there any Lightwave glitches I should be prepared for?

If you plan to use mocap you need to investigate setting up your skeleton hiearchy to accommodate the standard mocap rig.

[Patorak]

If you plan to use mocap you need to investigate setting up your skeleton hiearchy to accommodate the standard mocap rig.

Thanks. Will do. How's this for the ankle bend?

[Cageman]

it would be ace if Newtek actualy spent the time to listen to it's users and perhaps revamp the rigging tools.

Join the OB-forums over at NT and have a look. NT are doing something, but safe to say is:

1. They ARE aware of their faulty tools and of what I've heard, many of the devs at NT are familiar with other 3D-packages as well.

2. What they are doing in order to fix will take some time to do

3. I managed to prove Pooby wrong with something he said LW couldn't do, but can (using DPKit and Node Item Motion). Another guy did the same thing using no third party tools. :) (it was about multiple IK-chains driven by dynamic clothobjects and some IK-chains were dependent on what others were doing as well as what the clothfx was doing).

If you are innovative enough you can get pretty cool things working, even in LightWave, and ever since Nodes and Relativity were introduced to LW, things have become alot easier and the only "workaround" I do is to use some free thirdparty nodes.

[Patorak]

Join the OB-forums over at NT and have a look.

Thanks. On my way over there, now.

[T4D]

3. I managed to prove Pooby wrong with something he said LW couldn't do, but can (using DPKit and Node Item Motion). Another guy did the same thing using no third party tools. :) (it was about multiple IK-chains driven by dynamic clothobjects and some IK-chains were dependent on what others were doing as well as what the clothfx was doing).

If you are innovative enough you can get pretty cool things working, even in LightWave, and ever since Nodes and Relativity were introduced to LW, things have become alot easier and the only "workaround" I do is to use some free thirdparty nodes.

amazing ....clearly you don't have a understanding of what Poopy was showing ? :rolleyes:

it's not about A following B and is relative to C in this one exsample

he was show "A 3D system " where it can be done easily
( eg no workarounds, no plugins, no limits )

great you know a " workaround "that sort of does what poopy showed in one exsample
what about everyone else using LW ?? and all the other projects you may what to use this method but need it be alittle bit different ? ( that is out of the scope of your method )

everyone using poopy's system can do what poopy done without issues and maybe find a drozen other ways to do it. that even poopy didn't know about.

your defending a old software system ??? why ??

waiting for years maybe to have what other have right now,. OR you could spend afew dollars now and a month learning and have all that power now. that's been working -reworked many times though many productions and is bug free right now..
( nothing is bug free but conpaired to LW YES BUG FREE ! )

sorry to bring this back to this,.. but there a people spending far too much time trying to do things in LW that are a waste of time and effort,,.. ( spend time modeling renderng and enjoy the good bits )

But Advanced CA = learn a new platform Max, Maya, XSI or even messiah .

[Cageman]

amazing ....clearly you don't have a understanding of what Poopy was showing ? :rolleyes:

Did you see the example? It was in the OB-forums at NT and not shown anywhere outside OB... Would love if you could comment on it over there instead... even Pooby were surprised how EASY it is to achive that particular rig in LW... but you need to join OB in order to see the example Pooby posted and my imitation in LW.

EDIT: Also, if you read that thread, you should know my stance on what I think about LWs system, it seems you are totaly unaware of what I've been experimenting with the last 6 months when it comes to dynamic driven rigs using nodes, which in turn allows for things being done in a single pass instead of doing A then B then C... I can do them all in one go...

This doesn't mean LW is as good as XSI at all, but it shows that you can do ALOT MORE now then in 8.x and earlier versions.

EDIT 2: I've also done TONS of different rigs being partly driven by dynamics in order to have very fast results for secondary motion. All of my rigs are based around DPKit and Node Item Motion, but Dodgy was able to strip out Node Item Motion and DPKit in the example where I imitated Poobys dynamic rig. He used Anchor instead. So far I have easily adapted my technique to alot of different things, non of which I can show since they are related to work. :/

EDIT 3: Finaly, your ignorance shines through quite severely. You have not bothered to read my posts in the OB (or anywhere else for that matter) because I've yet to use these rigs in CA. I've never even said I do CA in LW... I use these rigs with vehicles and non CA-objects. If you are going to comment on my posts, at least read up on what I post and my use for LW in production related work.

[pooby]

I don't want to get involved in an argument, but Lw could handle my example. Not brilliantly, as you still have to calculate, but I was genuinely suprised it worked.

However, I believe that it was only the DP kit which allowed it to happen, and the combination of using that and the dynamics caused LW to evaluate more than the current items on the current frame which is doesnt normally do.
Ironically, If you just used a static mesh instead of dynamic cloth, it doesnt work with the 2 IK chains.
So, I don't really see that example as any sort of triumph for LW. It's more like I accidentally stumbled upon a loophole.
It would be staggeringly easy to come up with 10 examples that LW couldnt do at all.
I would be quite happy to do that if you wish.

However. I like to give credit where credit is due. So LW scores half a point. (not a full one because of the calculating)i

[Cageman]

However. I like to give credit where credit is due. So LW scores half a point. (not a full one because of the calculating)i

:)

Yep, and as I said in the OB

"I bet you can come up with lots of rigs that LW can't handle in one pass" :)

But what about Dodgys example then? He stated that he did not use Node Item Motion in conjunction with DPKit, but only resorted to use Anchor. Anchor may be evaluated in the same manner as DPKit maybe?

Oh well...

Do you have those LW-scenes where this technique doesn't work? Would love to have them as a reference and possibly examples of what NT should look at.

EDIT: And about LW needing to calculate dynamics is not really a limitation. Pretty much all other apps (as far as I know), execpt XSI apparently, have realtime dynamics. If you are going to do something like this with Maya and nCloth, you'll need to calculate as well.

EDIT2: Just need to add, in case T4D jumps the gun ;), is the fact that my dynamic rigs ARE DESIGNED to be used with dynamics. That is the reason why I use them in the first place, and by doing so, as Pooby said, it seems LW is able to handle things quite differently than "normal" cases. Hence the usefullness of LW for the stuff I do at work.

[pooby]

Both anchor and Nodal motion seem to evaluate the previous frame, So there is an offset - the null isn't absolutely on the geometry, its where it was a frame ago. I'd imagine that this is some sort of internal hack.
Whilst this isn't very accurate, it does somehow kick the IK into evaluating twice which is very useful as the other motion modifiers like follower etc wont allow this to happen.

[Cageman]

Both anchor and Nodal motion seem to evaluate the previous frame, So there is an offset - the null isn't absolutely on the geometry, its where it was a frame ago. I'd imagine that this is some sort of internal hack.
Whilst this isn't very accurate, it does somehow kick the IK into evaluating twice which is very useful as the other motion modifiers like follower etc wont allow this to happen.

Open up Nodal editor and you'll see that the everything snaps to place when draging the timeslider. Same thing if you render, everything works perfect; no visible offsets. The laging seems to be coming from LW not evaluating all things when displaying it, but if a node editor is opened, that last bit is forced into place.

I agree it is an issue, but a very minor one, concidering the facts I just provided compared to what it allows you to do. If it truly were an issue, I wouldn't have been able to use it in real production, but on the contrary it proved very stable and usefull. In this case, there are other issues with LW that's related to baking (no problems baking this with MotionBaker, but baking things enmasse using MotionBaker have shown alot of problems; sometimes I can only bake one item at a time, sometimes baking everything in a single sweep just works).

I'm currently working out an examplescene to send to NewTek that they can use to test the IK-solver with...

[pooby]

I'm not trying to suggest that it's not production-worthy.

My original point, and one that I still adhere to, is that, in general terms, LW's Ik system, and modifiers and the way they share data and evaluate within the scene is awful and doing these kind of things require far too much inventiveness, 3rd party plugs and thinking out of the box to do things which can be done with straightforward ease in XSI (I can't speak for Maya).
It would be a very rare case where I'd want to go back to do anything motion-related in Lw, but there are a few things it can do exceptionally well since the DP kit arrived.

Anyway It's all a moot point. Newtek know this all needs rebuilding and are on the case so there's no point me keep going on about it.

[Cageman]

I'm not trying to suggest that it's not production-worthy.

My original point, and one that I still adhere to, is that, in general terms, LW's Ik system, and modifiers and the way they share data and evaluate within the scene is awful and doing these kind of things require far too much inventiveness, 3rd party plugs and thinking out of the box to do things which can be done with straightforward ease in XSI (I can't speak for Maya).
It would be a very rare case where I'd want to go back to do anything motion-related in Lw, but there are a few things it can do exceptionally well since the DP kit arrived.

Anyway It's all a moot point. Newtek know this all needs rebuilding and are on the case so there's no point me keep going on about it.

Quoted for 100% agreement... until things are fixed, I'll continue to investigate what can and can not be done with the aid of free third party tools. :) If people need to do something, depending on what it is, they should know about DPKit and Node Item Motion combo...just maybe that is exactly what they need instead of speending money on other apps to solve a problem they thought LW wasn't able to solve.

[Shuggs]

It really shouldn’t be necessary for me to have to give a state of the union address but maybe there needs to be one. I’m totally all for letting people voice their opinion as long there are not personal attacks towards other people, but the zealousness of pursuit of said opinions is bordering on ridiculous. Lightwave is what it is and you will either use it or not, but there is no need to aggresively pursue your opinon in other peoples threads, belittle others or debate about X program vs. Y program. Every single app has advantages and disadvantages, and as artists you owe it yourselves to examine and try each package and find something that fits you. Lightwave is not the only program out there that rocks, nor is it a beast of burden. Don’t like X program? Then don’t use it but I’m tired of the vocal minority putting a bad face on the Lightwave community.



I’m not giving as much leeway on threads as I did before, and I will shut them down if it even looks like it might become a shouting match.



The only threads you need to post here are:

1.Wips and Final Lightwave work

2.Queries for help

3.Tutorials and file links.

4.Lightwave related news.



I DO NOT WANT TO SEE:

1. Posts about other applications and how X feature is so much better

2. Posts about how great Lightwave is compared to X application

3.Posts about Luxology vs. Newtek

4. Posts that have nothing at all to do with Lightwave



Stick to the program and being an artist. All I’m asking is to focus on helping others and being a positive force in the community.

Go Lightwave! :D

[Patorak]

OK. I got the biped rig done. Still tweaking though. Next question. This is the latest WIP from Peshkwe and me. Are there any tuts out there on rigging a quadped?

[Emiliano]

It´s a shame that there is not LW rig in this resources.
I will dig our files and donate some complete cool rigs with model.

By the way, I see that the "submit new resource" it´s non working.
Any idea on how to do that?

bests
emiliano

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