Paralumino Plugins v2

[jimjam]

As suggested in earlier posts, EPS import would make Trestle mighty attractive.

JimM

[PaulS2]

Glad to see you continue development.

One of EI's weaker areas is bringing in data created elsewhere. It's ability to talk to other applications which might be stronger in certain areas. Jen's wire problem of a few days ago, for example.

Development should heavily concentrate on flawless import and manipulation of eps/ai format. Nothing else should be as important regardless of the extra effort needed to make it work right. The major apps which I use all have it working to a large degree - it is a standard which is expected to be used. Like it or not.

A little disrelated to your products though very related in some ways. I use MrsBebel a lot and really like that it works off of geometry but can only imagine how much more useful and powerful it could be if it could import eps and allow for some manipulation and editing of the curves and the profiles.

[Reuben5150]

Glad to see you continue development.

One of EI's weaker areas is bringing in data created elsewhere. It's ability to talk to other applications which might be stronger in certain areas. Jen's wire problem of a few days ago, for example.

Development should heavily concentrate on flawless import and manipulation of eps/ai format. Nothing else should be as important regardless of the extra effort needed to make it work right. The major apps which I use all have it working to a large degree - it is a standard which is expected to be used. Like it or not.

A little disrelated to your products though very related in some ways. I use MrsBebel a lot and really like that it works off of geometry but can only imagine how much more useful and powerful it could be if it could import eps and allow for some manipulation and editing of the curves and the profiles.

I'll second all of that,

3rd party plugin developers have existed to provide features "missing" in the host app, they have had a good crack at just about everything, sds, dynamics, particles, volumetrics, etc etc, so why has the eps issue being avoided SO MUCH ! ???

Maybe we should have a vote on here.

[juanxer]

(if you decide to produce an EPS parser for your plugins, I wonder if that effort could be taken advantage of for some concept I proposed time ago: an EPS-based shader. The idea, if achievable, would be to have infinitely zoomable resolution-independent EPS texture maps. StrataVision used to be able to directly load EPSs as textures)

[PaulS2]

Sorry Brian - this is going to go off on a tangent.

Let's forget about all of the 3D users who already have a 3D app and are happy with it - let's take a look at someone just getting interested in 3D.

They have there copy of photoshop and maybe illustrator.....their clients have them work with 2D versions of their graphics and logos. Now this person gets the idea that 3d might be nice to explore - they aren't looking to create the next Star Wars - they just want to add a little bit of dimension to their clients stuff....you know 3D....depth.

So they look at EI as an option. There is no way they can do this with EI...it just hit me as I was thinking about Brian's request. This potential client of EI's ...the very most basic thing you might want to do with 3D. EI can't do it. You cannot take a client's eps file - their logo and do the most basic of basic 3D functions with it.

Writing this, I am a little in disbelief:-) No wonder C4D has taken over on the Mac.

Looking at this further. Client sends logo in eps format. In C4D, one imports it...fiddles with the curves to their heart's content (somewhat similar to Illustrator - which they know) - adding fillets to corners, etc, etc. Extrudes and adds bevels to it with the Extrude tool (extrude tool makes it look like cheap, crappy 3D...my opinion only:-)....success!! Completely inexperienced user now can take 2D drawings and make them 3D wonderful.

Same deal using Max on the PC....though much more expensive.

In EI's case - first they have to hunt for a modeler. What? Have to buy a modeler now?? What, EI doesn't import those files well?? I'm outa here....yes, Camera looks great but I can't do what I want to do so that doesn't matter.

Maybe User has a copy of EIM - imports eps file and takes the next couple hours smoothening out all of the broken curves because EIM's beveler just doesn't like those curves broken.

While in EIM, user want to fillet the corners in the curve - finds the edge fillet tool in the wire editting pallet. Works great...nice fillets:-) Now wants to go and edit the curve some more with bezier toolset....O000ppps, can't do that. It has now become a rational spline and the bezier tool doesn't work on those. Moan!

I really don't mean to beat on EI...I like it and I use it and I have found solutions for all of these problems with wonderful work-arounds:-) This is just taking a comparison from a different point of view on making a simple 3D shape...the most basic and yet EI has problems. I does not surprise me it has lost a huge part of it's user-base....this isn't defeatest thinking. This is just reality. I want EI to prosper.

So Brian, your pluggins are exactly what EI needs to have working smoothly and seamlessly with outside applications. Actually the host, EI should have this basic functionality right from the start.....seeing how it doesn't, EPS and ai imports with some manipulation are absolutely essential. I also hope Tesla solves some of this very basic, rudimentary functionality from day one.

[Vizfizz]

First off...thanks for all the comments so far. I really want to hear everything. However let me first put out the following disclaimer.

Development on v2 of our plugins is not yet confirmed. Matter of fact, it may never happen. The Igors are not convinced that a v2 of these plugins are justified due to the relatively poor reception of v1 and the impending release of Tesla. From their perspective, they believe that I didn't push the products well enough and thus they ceased active development with Paralumino. However they still do a fine job of supporting all existing products by ensuring bugs are fixed and occasionally throw in a new feature here and there for very specific user needs.

At first I was quite confused with their position. It wasn't that sales were that abysmal, but it wasn't enough to really impress them for a v2. (You've got to consider EI's current state of health and the "golden age" of EI plugins just isn't there anymore...even though it is getting better) The Igors took a big risk to volunteer their time to create these plugins (based off my vision) in exchange for rights and ownership along with a substantial royalty on each sale as payment. To be fair, perhaps I could have pushed the plugins harder or produced more personal samples of the product, but I keep asking myself what else could I have done? Its not like I could have taken out magazine ads, gone door to door, or rented a Siggraph booth.

So this leads me to this thread. Personally I believe the Paralumino project is a team effort. Its a team between developer and user. I want to hear how this team effort can be strengthened. Try to remember that developers aren't running a charity organization. Developers want to meet your needs, but also must make a living.

I still believe that the Paralumino plugin lineup could really meet the specific needs of the motion graphics market and the entry level artist. This of course leads me to my position which is that I feel the feature set of these plugins are still lacking fundamental capabilities to really push them over the edge of success. There were a lot of features that were just not implemented. We're really close to having it right, but we're not quite hitting the mark. Thus the solution for v2 to really be successful is to combine a new marketing campaign with the right feature set. The question that bothers me though is: Should these features just be offloaded to Tesla?

Can these plugins have a healthy market with the advent of Tesla? What kinds of features would make them more successful? More animation features? Who would buy them if those features were implemented? You?

Thanks for you feedback.

[monday1313]

i haven't bought those plugs yet, but if you could import EPS files(which i get sent all the time-just like the previous example given), make geometry with them in animator and animate the import parameters of the plugs, that would be worth throwing done some money for...

[Vizfizz]

I'll second all of that,

3rd party plugin developers have existed to provide features "missing" in the host app, they have had a good crack at just about everything, sds, dynamics, particles, volumetrics, etc etc, so why has the eps issue being avoided SO MUCH ! ???

Maybe we should have a vote on here.


Zakwerks had the EPS formula right, but chose to go to an outside product and thus discontinued Invig and Vector Lathe in favor of his pro modeler. You can't blame him. Why not share his workflow with all applications rather than just one? It makes more business sense.

The Igors had a bad experience with EPS with a different client and thus do not want to embrace it. Perhaps if someone started a thread on the EI forum as to why they don't want to embrace EPS they'll take the time to clarify their position. (They wont answer that question here. They only want to focus on the EI forums...its easier for them since they're answering a lot of EI specific questions there.).

I fought like crazy to get EPS into Trestle and failed. Once the Igors make a decision, its very difficult to change their minds. Personally I agree with you. I think if Trestle had EPS input in addition to the way these plugins all interact with each other, it would be a formidable product. I just don't see why they wont embrace this concept unless they don't want to be seen as "copying" Zak's lead.

Its strange. Its like there is a flashing beacon right in front of their eyes saying "success" and they choose to ignore it.

[Vizfizz]

Something else to consider. I know that the EPS argument will be beaten to death until everyone is blue in the face, but lets also try to consider other options outside of EPS too.

[PaulS2]

Something else to consider. I know that the EPS argument will be beaten to death until everyone is blue in the face, but lets also try to consider other options outside of EPS too.


There aren't any other options.....it's a standard and all app use it. EI, without it, continues to be an island.

There is a big difference between 'live adjustable' pluggins in EI and having similar tools in a seperate modeler. I'm assuming Tesla will be seperate for some time.

I much prefer to be able to work on the fly - adjust a curve here, a profile there and have the live pluggin trickle down. Much more creative and fluid.

But there are some functions which require some heavy calculations...these are best left to a dedicated modeler.

There will always be a place for interactive pliggins which you offer which Tesla won't take the place of.

I can only imagine how useful something like MrsBebel (I know this isn't your's Brian but it's one I have most experience with) could be if one could bring in eps files, edit the files with a good robust toolset, another interface window to draw out profiles...and then use these curves and profiles for it's geometry and also for other pluggins.

These are basic, basic 3D tools. I am somewhat shocked that this idea needs to be sold to anyone:-)???? It's like saying make me a picture but I'm not letting you use any drawing tools!...like a pencil or a pen.

[futagoza]

Something else to consider. I know that the EPS argument will be beaten to death until everyone is blue in the face, but lets also try to consider other options outside of EPS too.

How about SVG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalable_Vector_Graphics) wich should be also a modern standard, supported by lot´s of 2D app´s?
Or do the Igor´s don´t like to fiddle with Vector Graphics programming in general?

Regards
Stefan

[Vizfizz]

Paul...

Personally I love the stackable plugin approach that the Igors implemented in the lineup. Its amazing and artists can produce shapes and forms with great ease. The problem is its not "focused". Even though Bebel isn't a Paralumino product, I consider it and Encage as extended family because they both integrate so well in the Paralumino workflow.

The key to all these plugins is Trestle. It serves as the "hub" to all these products by supplying polylines and polygonal shapes. Matter of fact Trestle could feed anything and everything within EI with just a little more work. The new plugin API could also encourage greater workflow capabilities with non-modal windows and realtime host interaction.

I also agree with you Paul that Tesla will not "remove" the need for this capability within EIAS. If a "mograph" type module and more refined drawing capabilities were integrated into Trestle, EI would have new found capabilities that would exceed anything on the market.

But how do I convince the Igors of this?

[Vizfizz]

How about SVG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalable_Vector_Graphics) wich should be also a modern standard, supported by lot´s of 2D app´s?
Or do the Igor´s don´t like to fiddle with Vector Graphics programming in general?

Regards
Stefan


An interesting option. However are there drawing applications out there that can save out SVG? It just seems like a shadow of EPS. What benefits would it have over EPS?

[PaulS2]

Paul...

Personally I love the stackable plugin approach that the Igors implemented in the lineup. Its amazing and artists can produce shapes and forms with great ease. The problem is its not "focused". Even though Bebel isn't a Paralumino product, I consider it and Encage as extended family because they both integrate so well in the Paralumino workflow.

The key to all these plugins is Trestle. It serves as the "hub" to all these products by supplying polylines and polygonal shapes. Matter of fact Trestle could feed anything and everything within EI with just a little more work. The new plugin API could also encourage greater workflow capabilities with non-modal windows and realtime host interaction.

I also agree with you Paul that Tesla will not "remove" the need for this capability within EIAS. If a "mograph" type module and more refined drawing capabilities were integrated into Trestle, EI would have new found capabilities that would exceed anything on the market.

But how do I convince the Igors of this?

Completely agree in what you say.

How do you convince the Igors?:-) Talk to Brad - he has control over the whole show so it seems. If not, then we are in big trouble!!:-)

Get Brads agreement to focus a littler more on Motion and Still graphics - have him nudge the russians a bit:-). EI needs some way to import EPS curves within EI, manipulate them and make them useable for pluggins such as your's. If the Igors aren't going to do it then maybe someone else can be worked with to create an import module/pluggin for EI.

[Vizfizz]

(if you decide to produce an EPS parser for your plugins, I wonder if that effort could be taken advantage of for some concept I proposed time ago: an EPS-based shader. The idea, if achievable, would be to have infinitely zoomable resolution-independent EPS texture maps. StrataVision used to be able to directly load EPSs as textures)

An interesting idea, but not in the scope of this thread. Not trying to shut your idea down, but right now I want to focus how we can bring v2 into existence. Thanks for your comment though.

[futagoza]

Commercial app´s like Coral, Illustrator, Canvas etc. and freeware apps.
Benefits?! Good question. I´m no programmer for me it´s just another popular exchange format. I mentioned it only because you asked for alternatives...

[Reuben5150]

Can these plugins have a healthy market with the advent of Tesla? What kinds of features would make them more successful? More animation features? Who would buy them if those features were implemented? You?

Thanks for you feedback.

I don't see why not, these are *interactive modeling tools which can be animated* the advantage is right there, i don't see Tesla affecting Paralumino sales at all.

Sorry to hear the plugins have not do as well as expected, i can only guess the reasons.

You know, a few years back David Argemi told me EI had thousands of users worldwide, so unless they all swiched to c4d :rolleyes: there should be lots of potential customers out there.

Maybe work on some promos ;)

[Vizfizz]

Well the Igors have always felt that EPS import is the responsibility of the "host". I suppose that would be fine, but by not having the ability within the scope of the Paralumino lineup, you'd loose out on a lot of animation capabilities...not to mention, what's the point of providing general EPS import into a product like Animator? EPS import is more attuned for import within a modeling application. (Aka Tesla)

The beauty of Zak's products were that models could be resolution independent. If you needed to fly in closer to your shapes, you could increase the tesselation and get a sharper model within the plugin without having to re-import. Of course, this would slow down the rendering process because Camera would had to regenerate the model for every frame...but usually once you found the right "settings" you could save out a static model to speed up rendering.

Maybe a compromise could be made if EITG provides a dynamic eps import into Animator and our products could be retooled to work with them. I just think it would be easier if it were all handled within Trestle.

[Vizfizz]

Commercial app´s like Coral, Illustrator, Canvas etc. and freeware apps.
Benefits?! Good question. I´m no programmer for me it´s just another popular exchange format. I mentioned it only because you asked for alternatives...

Thanks. Its a good suggestion. Perhaps easier to work with than EPS? Who knows.

[Vizfizz]

Rueben,

Sales aren't horrible, they're just not spectacular and with the Igors volunteering their efforts up front, sales need to be spectacular to justify further development and for us to reclaim the time invested. Thing is, for those who own the products, they're quite happy with them...they just want more functionality. That functionality lies in being able to create more sophisticated 2D shapes and profiles. The Igors got the "3D" part down pat.

Scrim, Swage, Bebel, and Revolver in their core functionality are nearly perfect. What's not perfect is how they obtain the 2D shapes that drive their functions.

Trestle is the weakest link, but its also the key to success. I've been trying to tell them that since the beginning.

[Vizfizz]

How about the idea of dedicated "pre-sales"? If I can get a v2 feature list that can be agreed upon with the Igors, would any of you pledge to purchase (or upgrade) if those features were implemented? I know that's stretching it a bit, but somehow I have to show a large enough interest to get the Igors to move forward again.

And since the EPS question will come up...if Trestle could directly read wires from Tesla/EIM would that be a sufficient compromise instead of supporting EPS directly instead?

I only ask because EPS is going to be a tough sale for me to convince the Igors.

[PaulS2]

If EIM/Tesla was dealing with eps imports a little better than it does now (the fillet example I gave earlier)...and the export of wires was fixed (Jen's experience) that would be a very good start.

[MarsViolet]

For what it's worth, I myself haven't used EPS for years. Instead I use PDF for everything I used to use EPS for. PDF is seamlessly integrated into OS X, and nearly every app I use can open, place and save to PDF, though not all of them support EPS, and even fewer support SVG. Illustrator will export SVG, but I've only got one or two other apps that have any idea what to do with SVG files (curiously, Safari can display them).

[monday1313]

i'd agree to pre-order the paralumino bundle if it can support EPS import.

i don't use EIM and as far as i know don't have a machine capable of installing it.

[barnabythebear]

Hi All,

Well, i hope to be getting Trestle and Scrim next week for my work seat of EIAS!

I haven't used them so I can't comment fully but i would like to see:

Filleting in Trestle - select a point on a corner and create a fillet with a specified number of interpolated points (like Max). Doing this point by point looks like a bit of pain.

Ability to automatically bevel the start and or end of a closed Scrim profile (like Swage does).

I'm not sure this is possible but it would be cool to actually draw a bezier spline in Trestle. This could/would them be frozen into a chosen number points. This may even lessen the need for eps import if the tools worked well?

Thanks

nige.

[futagoza]

For what it's worth, I myself haven't used EPS for years. Instead I use PDF for everything I used to use EPS for. PDF is seamlessly integrated into OS X, and nearly every app I use can open, place and save to PDF, though not all of them support EPS, and even fewer support SVG. Illustrator will export SVG, but I've only got one or two other apps that have any idea what to do with SVG files (curiously, Safari can display them).

Well, i think PDF requires a license for the PDF Library SDK. And i somehow assume Adobe isn´t that cheap, to implement PDF support in Tresle. (Well just a thought).

Regards
Stefan

[Vizfizz]

Hi All,

Well, i hope to be getting Trestle and Scrim next week for my work seat of EIAS!

I haven't used them so I can't comment fully but i would like to see:

Filleting in Trestle - select a point on a corner and create a fillet with a specified number of interpolated points (like Max). Doing this point by point looks like a bit of pain.

Ability to automatically bevel the start and or end of a closed Scrim profile (like Swage does).

I'm not sure this is possible but it would be cool to actually draw a bezier spline in Trestle. This could/would them be frozen into a chosen number points. This may even lessen the need for eps import if the tools worked well?

Thanks

nige.

Filleting (Or Rounding) in Trestle could be a reasonable feature request. I don't see why that couldn't be integrated. I'll put it on the list for consideration. Hopefully the Igors will agree.

As for beveling or capping Scrim geometry. Well Scrim creates lofts. There isn't a 3D package I know of that "caps" a lofting call. Extrusions can be capped and beveled and we see that functionality with Swage and Bebel. But the entire purpose of Scrim is to loft geometry between two or more open or closed profile curves. Capping & Beveling just isn't intended for that type of geometry creation.

Bezier drawing splines in Trestle have been considered by the Igors and if I can convince them to continue with "v2", you might see this feature emerge. Having Bezier drawing capabilities would go a long way to reduce the need for EPS provided that the Igors include the ability to support true holes in 2D structures. A single chain of points (as it currently exists) is fine for simple shapes, but not for creating truly complex 2D structures.

Although EIAS possesses a Text tool, having the ability to do text in Trestle that integrates well with the rest of the product line would be vastly superior. However, exported wires from Tesla from its text tool could work just fine.

[scottfox]

a lot of you have seen my reel, 98% of every 3d thing on it was modeled using an EPS
graphic from adobe illustrator, imported into ZAX Invigerator Pro and exported as a FACT
directly into EI. Zax does not JUST have the eps thing down, I can import numerous eps shapes
at once into it. Model a whole scene at once. And most importantly to me I can take a given shape
and isolate up to 6 'subsections' of that shape that then import into EI as a parent with 5 child shapes, which makes shading them in EI really flexible. Even a built in modeler would have a tough time (for a beginner) doing that.

That said, eps NEEDS to be included in Paraluminos products. I use mr revolver and thats it (which would be PERFECT if its points had bezier handle control. ITs still an A- though). Paul S says it pretty well. Its a computer graphics STANDARD! If EI wants NEW users, and I firmly believe this, the majority are going to come from where I did. A graphic designer\illustrator who wants to add a little dimension to their illustrations OR a 2d after effects user who may have invigerator, but cant stand its animation toolset or its renderer (which to me, are awful)

I forget who said maybe they dont want to 'copy' Zax. WHY NOT?! Microsoft 'copied' apple. Fedex copied 'UPS'. A LOT of hi end modelers DO THE SAME THING with a lot of their tools that others do. So, I don't buy the 'we cant copy' thing. Right now, the
simple combination of Invigerator and v7 makes a better mograph app than cinema 4d. I can list
a top ten reasons why if anyone cares (my review of EI touches on this and should be released later this week)

Paraluminos products are PERFECT for EI. They just suffer from "programmer goggles"
If a DESIGNER could program these things they would sell to virtually every EI user.
What did EPS ever do to the Igors? Did EPS pick a fight with them in high school? : )
At first, I thought there was some expensive licensing fee to use eps's in your app.

Count me IN as a person willing to 'pre-buy' the whole set of plugs if eps was incorporated well. As for more imagery and advertising Brian, they are just teases
to people like me who cant grasp fully how to use them in their workflow. Most of the
imagery I have seen is pretty nice so what I would do is pretty simple (in theory). Incorporate EPS
as the BUILDING BLOCKS of the plug-ins and even re name them like zax used to.
EPS Trestle EPS Revolver EPS Lofter etc etc. Those names alone make most any new user want to read more about them KNOWING full well they can create eps vectors in their sleep and with little extra effort create cool 3d looks and effects as well! Artists don't like to constantly have to re learn new ways of doing things, Eps format is a warm and comfy
way to bridge the 'intimidation' gap between the 2d and 3d for most artists. For NOW at least, the hi end\ hi learning curve complicated 3d world belongs to maya, max, xsi and to some extent Cinema. Paraluminos products, if done right are a terrific gateway to 3d for a whole lot of potential new users. (and a bunch of us old ones too)

What can we do here? EPS is such a standard in computer graphics that it just confounds me that EI, the igors and whoever else does not incorporate it heavily throughout the app
AND of course in the Paralumino products. With EPS capabilities, those plug-ins become
a temporary life raft for EI in lieu of Teslas release. Even with Tesla, ive yet to see a modeler in any app, hold a candle to invigerators options. Its usually simply an import and 1 adjustable boring bevel.

Here is my last clue. IF EI\Paralumino\Igors want MORE users and MORE market share try this... USE STANDARD AND WORLDWIDELY ACCEPTED FORMATS (eps) dont try and make up your own, or pretend they dont exist.... :)


I hope this was constructive.........

[PaulS2]

"IF EI\Paralumino\Igors want MORE users and MORE market share try this... USE STANDARD AND WORLDWIDELY ACCEPTED FORMATS (eps) dont try and make up your own, or pretend they dont exist...."

I do like the kick-A_ _ tone of your post!:-)

I completely agree.

From what i can see, a lot of motiongraphics need to be created fast and look good. EI is perfect for this. Amazing speed with very high quality motion blur, AA and shadow maps. I don't think any app can touch it for these features.

[Vizfizz]

Scott,

I can not tell you exactly why the Igors resist EPS. The best thing to do would be to ask them on the EI forum. (They wont answer it here) They stated that they would be willing to discuss their experiences with their previous client and why the experience turned them off to the EPS format in general. If their reasons are logical, then fine, we need to respect their decisions and perhaps I'll be able to convince them of directly supporting wire imports in the Trestle editor from Tesla.

As most have already identified, Tesla does not impinge on Paralumino's market because Paralumino animates the model construction process, where Tesla will not. (Or at least it wont for a long while and if it ever does, Animator will be on its way out).

So would someone simply create a thread on the EI forum and ask why they don't like the EPS format? Particularly for the Paralumino product lineup?

Thanks.

[Vizfizz]

"IF EI\Paralumino\Igors want MORE users and MORE market share try this... USE STANDARD AND WORLDWIDELY ACCEPTED FORMATS (eps) dont try and make up your own, or pretend they dont exist...."

I do like the kick-A_ _ tone of your post!:-)

I completely agree.

From what i can see, a lot of motiongraphics need to be created fast and look good. EI is perfect for this. Amazing speed with very high quality motion blur, AA and shadow maps. I don't think any app can touch it for these features.


Paul.. you know as well as I that the "Kick-A" tone of voice will not work on the Igors. If you do that, you will instantly shut them off and they will never respond.

[PaulS2]

I wasn't refering to directing that at the Igors:-) No one likes to get there A_ _ kicked for any reason regardless if it might be deserved.

I just liked the general liveliness Scott put into his post.

[sacslacker]

I find myself having to use C4D a little bit now and then and I have to say, their implementation of Mograph is incredible. Having stackable effectors with different modifiers really make it intersting. The thing is, it's a lot like your products and how they stack.

If you guys could implements a tool like that, I'd think it'd sell pretty well too.

[scottfox]

thanks Paul, I don't want my 'tone' misunderstood. It's more of a passion. I wan't EI
and Paralumino to do very well. For the first time in a long time I see EI so close to
being a complete 'mograph' monster for the new and not 'indoctrinated' artists out there
I want to help any way I can to truthfully get the word out for an app that just does not
have a lot of marketing $ right now. My comments are mostly for the Igors. Certainly not
Brian or Brad in particular. I should have made that clearer.

Money is power when it comes to a lot of things, Cinema has it in spades. I personally feel
c4d is trying to have it all ways. Be a hi end character animation and visual effects package with all the complexity that that kind of package brings to the table, and, Oh yeah were ALSO an easy to use (?) mograph app. I feel like cinema is one of these politicians in the Democratic primaries in the US. Their gonna solve all your problems and there going to be everything to both sides while they try and get your vote. Dont question what its going to cost, or even IF they can actually get it done.

Like I have said before, I, or a lot of people, can get a mograph artist up and running in EI in a day or 2 tops. Thats huge for EI to tout, its ease of use and powerful output.

More specific to this topic is Paralumino, I feel for Brian, he is giving it a great shot and really listening to us. I feel the igors are a tad bit elitist in their tone and opinions. We small minded left brained only artists could never think of a more effective solution for
a 3d issue. We just want it all and are unreasonable in our 'demands'. Here is something I would LOVE EI to do (Brian is already kind of doing it here)

Because we artists are not sophisticated enough to understand how complicated a feature may be to implement. ;) Have the Igors list say, the top ten features they feel, and from our input, we feel are most important for EIAS. Then have the igors estimate the
amount of time required to include said feature. (1 week, 1 month 3 months whatever)
Then have Brad give us users a sort of "time money budget" of say 6 months or 9 months. Whatever it may be. That way we can pick and choose the new features based on the urgencies we have as users knowing we can only use X amount of time.
That way the Igors can never again tell one of us who request a new capability that,
we may want that but have no idea the labor involved.

With Paralumino, its simple. We want eps added to the tools in an effective way. How long will that take\how much. Get them to commit to it\if we commit to a certain amount of pre sales. Problem solved. Im a believer in goals you can see being more effective than hidden ones, eg - lets say Paralumino needs 300 committments to pull this off, or however many. Make that public, and as we commit, lets grow the excitement for it by watching that number shrink and shrink.

I am done for now guys.........

[arketype]

Brian,

I do not think everyone understands exactly what your plugins offer. Most people see them and think "oh it's a modeling plug". But they aren't. They are ANIMATION plugins.
I do no think this is really apparent.

You also mention how Trestle is the "hub" or beginning, and the other plugs "feed" or "stack" on top. I believe this is also not well understood.

My suggestion- get Scott Novasic to do some Mograph tutorial videos (using Paralumino plugs of course). Show everyone what they can do. Scott is obviously very busy, but I am sure people would be willing to pay a little $ for the tutorials to make it worth his while... and release a few short Mograph video tips for free for promotional purposes. Sorry for volunteering you Scott ;)

Also- get all of your plugins together with their "cousin-plugins" over at EITG, and sell them together in a mega-bundle (You would have to work it out with EITG obviously). Every geometry animation tool there is (written by Igors) that can work together in the way you describe should be in there. And make it affordable through a significant bundle discount.

As far as importing files that can be edited you need file formats compatible with Illustrator. That's what everyone is REALLY saying. If EPS is trouble, what about some other format that Illustrator can read and write?

"Straight" .ai would be great (of course). But what about DXF? It's supported quite well by illustrator- And this might allow some interoperability between your Plugs and CAD output too.....just a thought.

EIAS obviously has what it takes to be a Mograph powerhouse with your plugins. So get together with Scott and Brad and make it happen... :)

Dave

[Vizfizz]

Hi Dave,

Well somethings you should realize. I've constructed product video tours for Trestle, Scrim and Swage. I believe they were quite instrumental for those who did purchase v1. I suppose its probably time to do an updated version. Perhaps another round will help cement the work flow.

The Paralumino plugs are geometry plugins. Essentially they are modeling plugins that can also animate. This is what makes them unique in the EIAS universe. They are the only plugins that can actually animate geometry on a vertex level. Until that functionality is added in Animator's core feature set or in the future for Tesla, EIAS animators are stuck with only object oriented animation capabilities. I would have thought this capability alone would have made them a success, but perhaps you're right...perhaps I haven't done my job well enough and the Igors were right to withdraw from doing more.

As for a mega bundle...well...once again I've tried that tactic with the Igors as well. I pushed multiple times to release a product called "ParaModeler" or maybe "ParaMotion" that would have put everything in one bundle for a single price. The Igors shot it down. Its primarily their product (by majority) so they have the right to set their own pricing structure...but it does make it more difficult to sell.

Remember the Paralumino plugins are owned by 3 people. The two Igors and myself. Its an automatic majority for them. I'm pleased that they acted up my ideas to the degree that they did by volunteering their time, but I'm at a loss on how to get them to start back up again. All I can think of is to bring the potential customer into the picture and hopefully together we can convince them to strongly embrace a v2.

[scottfox]

'Paul.. you know as well as I that the "Kick-A" tone of voice will not work on the Igors. If you do that, you will instantly shut them off and they will never respond.'

I guess throwing me under the bus is easier than dealing with the igors :(

Your telling me\us that they are that fragile. If they were any of our kids we'd put them in the time out chair for their stubbornness.

Lastly, my comments are not intended to "WORK" on anyone. They are simply my ideas
and 14 years experience with EI talking. I am passionate about my career and visa vi
Electric Image. If they have NO other choice but to hire people that are, well, the way they appear to be, then it saddens me. Polite and reasoned responses to our requests and concerns is not TOO much to expect from EI and its representatives. Brad is awesome that way... Usually a corporate attitude trickles down from the CEO through its employees... (Phil and Matt are great as well, nice guys!) FYI- Brad, im available to do some promotions work for you :)

I do hope to be leading the soon to be created Creative Cow EITG forum in the next few months after Teslas release. That Ron Lindeboom over at the Cow Loves EI. I can guarantee you that most of the users and participants over at the Cow will want to know why eps capabilities are missing from EI in 2008. Lets ask the Igors why. I guess....
Hope Im not thrown under 2 busses for asking that question to our friends.

[Vizfizz]

Scott...

You don't really know the Igors very well do you? Something I've learned. The Igors don't like programming and feature selection by committee. Its cultural. They will listen to user requests to a degree...and even act upon them with zeal, but only if the feature requests are logical, non repetitive (meaning they don't utilize redundant workflows to accomplish a single task) and they fit within their specific vision for the product or within their skillsets.

This tactic proved to be very beneficial when developing the stackable plugin concept within EI. It provided a very efficient and creative workflow for the products and I was very impressed by them. However, by doing so, they ignored multiple ideas that were equally good, but outside of that workflow. I feel EPS may have been in that catagory.

So...your passion is great, but be careful. It could wind up negatively impacting the cause. But no.. I'm not trying to throw you under a bus.

[Vizfizz]

Also..please realize this is not a "bash the Igors" thread. I have complete respect for their skillsets and their approach to programming. I'm appealing to the users to assist me in showing Igors that the Paralumino plugin line up is worth expanding. But in order to do that, it must be approached with tact otherwise I'm putting the final nail in the coffin by starting this thread in the first place.

[scottfox]

"So...your passion is great, but be careful. It could wind up negatively impacting the cause."

Fine, I am out of this. Whatever the "cause" is. For me and my love of EI to negatively effect anything is tough to swallow.

Thank you Paul and anyone else that felt my passion and energy is not only Positive but
needed.

[PaulS2]

One thing which really has to be understood about the russian culture (of which the Igors are) - it is quite forceful, gruff and to the point - very little in the way of social niceties. I can speak from personal experience as I'm russian and grew up in a russian community.

The Igors are great....very talented individuals but having english as a second language and then coming from a culture which a smack is the same as a kiss can come across a bit hard...and the wrong way.

Western culture is overly politically correct, shallow at times and I'm sure we come across like glib children sometimes - we want, we want!

Anyway, that's my two cents - the Igors usually are fair but can be a bit rough to deal with at times - usually say what is on their mind in a very direct (maybe a little too direct) way. I'm not harping on them or expecting them to change their ways - they probably have valid points for not wanting to go into EPS land...though maybe not valid in a broader sense.

Scott...you're fine - don't worry about it!:-)

[Vizfizz]

"So...your passion is great, but be careful. It could wind up negatively impacting the cause."

Fine, I am out of this. Whatever the "cause" is. For me and my love of EI to negatively effect anything is tough to swallow.

Thank you Paul and anyone else that felt my passion and energy is not only Positive but
needed.

Scott....the cause is to expand EI's capabilities and standing within the 3D community by providing tools that are desired and needed. Trust me, I know what you're going through. It was my "passion" for EI that motivated me to start Paralumino in the first place. But it was also my passion that tended to get in the way quite a bit with Igors. I have found the Igors must be approached outside of the emotional and one must be focused on fact. There is no need for the dramatic because it simply wont work. Try to realize I need people like you to help get my point across (especially with your skills). I'm just trying to prevent you from making the same mistake I made.

Cool?

[scottfox]

Thanks Paul,

••••Also..please realize this is not a "bash the Igors" thread. I have complete respect for their skillsets and their approach to programming. I'm appealing to the users to assist me in showing Igors that the Paralumino plugin line up is worth expanding. But in order to do that, it must be approached with tact otherwise I'm putting the final nail in the coffin by starting this thread in the first place.••••••••

Ok, you really think my posts are that shallow? With no substance, reason or tact?
Ive been run over again :(

No, this is NOT a bash the igors thread, it is however, a bit of a "convince the igors"
thread. We all pretty much agree, to sell more Paralumino Products AND EI licneses
EPS is the way to go. If the Igors say it CANT be done, thats a lot different than, we
dont want to do it. Thats the answer I would like to hear from them. Straight forward
yes or no. It sounds like the russians prefer that kind of direct questioning.

Brian, I have not commented on the Igors talent at all.
My posts appeal to the simple fact that EPS is a Standard in the CG industry, period.
To ignore implementing it is not in the best interest of EI OR Paraluminos plug ins. I have said that all night here. No one appears to dispute that here at all. So what are we left with. The people who ACTUALLY have to do the work to implement it. Im sorry, but I simply broke this down logically to the source.

My main point on topic, is we should not
HAVE to convince them that EPS is a standard in our industry. Its too obvious to all of us.
So now what. If they need convincing of this we've already lost to some extent.
Remember, EPS is not only a standard in our industry, its the easiest and most familiar
format for tens of thousands of artists. Why do you think I magnated directly to eps invigerator and vector lathe and now invigerator EPS! I am not alone on this, 3d modeling is hard to grasp for a huge number of artists, so even if your product accepted polylines or whatever there called, most new users and myself included, still might not see that as easy to use. You come from the hi end of the 3d world Brian, I don't. Yet were both succeeding. (you more than me of course) I feel my perspective is often looked down upon by the elites of 3d. People like Zax understand it too a tee.

To sell more Paralumino products, in my opinion, you need to make sense to the entry and mid level user for 2 good reasons. #1 there is a larger user base available to see your products and instantly see a use for them. EPS driven also has the benefit of carrying with it the "easy to use" reputation. #2 is simple, Hi end users STILL will use the products as well, easy to use does not turn off a lot of people, especially if you can create some of the beutiful output your products are capable of. A win win.

[Vizfizz]

The effort to expand Animator's abilities through the Paralumino plugin lineup must be forged in fact and presented in such a way that the Igors can see a clear and beneficial means for their investment in time.

My first approach with them was probably too self centered...and puffed up with bravado by me telling them our product lineup would simply sell like hotcakes. Well, it didn't exactly do that. We have well over a 100 users, but the Igors expected a better response to help pay for their time. Realistically, given the time they invested, versus the amount that was sold, we're still in the red.

I want to change that for them so they are once again excited to enhance the product line and maybe, just maybe, be able to convince them that EPS support is indeed warrented.

As I mentioned before; I thought I tried quite hard to sell the plugins. Perhaps I didn't do enough. I want to try again. However, to do so...the Igors need to realize that certain features are fundamentally required to really make this a successful second attempt.

[scottfox]

just saw your post Brian, Im totally cool with you my friend. Please dont overlook my thought out reasons for why eps should be implemented. I have left a lot of commentary on that. I too, if you look at it, am a too the point guy. I dress it up some with honest emotion, but Im not waffling on my points OR reasons. The "time out chair" thing I could have left out, sorry.

Im not an out of control personality, although there is a fine line you ride when you exhibit your passion.

If this thread was titled, 'an open letter to the Igors' I would approach things a little differently. Paul described them as I see them and I will leave it at that.

How we WORK with them is the main issue.

[Vizfizz]

Scott...

I never said your posts were shallow. Nor did I say you were bashing on the Igors. What I saw was the same approach I took with Igors at first and got shot down. I basically said to them, "how can you not see that EPS is the way to go" and was quite adament about it.. yet look where it got me.

Ultimately I wanted to detach the Igors from the subject to as much of a degree as possible because of exactly what happened. We're dealing with potential personality and cultural differences that makes communication very difficult. I spent nearly a year learning this about them and I must come to understand and accept them. Sometimes I feel they take advantage of that position and it can even be seen as a form of chokehold on EI at times, but they are EI's primary source of code and getting them angry wont help any of us... let alone little Paralumino.

At this point, I'd be willing to do most anything to get development back on track for these plugins. I just don't know what exactly to do to get them to start listening again.

[scottfox]

money Brian. Get a dollar amount from them. Do a pre sale to try and meet that.

To the point, right. :)

[Vizfizz]

Scott...

Yes.. you're probably right. Perhaps if I throw in a Mactel machine for them to program on it would seal the deal. (Since I don't think they have one yet)

But in order for a pre-sale to succeed, we'd need to have a confirmed, dyed in the wool, features list that everyone could agree on...other wise, who would promise to buy?

[scottfox]

your plugs already have a "feature set" correct? arent we just talking about adding
eps at the FRONT end of an already nice toolset? I dont think its really that complicated
Brian. Add a few things to them if it makes sense, but EPS is king here.

You add eps and I guarantee you, that in places like the Cow and everywhere I go, I will be pushing your tools right alongside EI as must have motion graphic tools. Reviews, tutorials the whole 9 yards. Im also going to be a leader on the Zaxwerks forum and After Effects forum on the cow as well. Lots of opportunity to push an easy to use affordable and powerful set of plugs for EI. I have to be, and will focus hard on letting my enthusiasm
be BACKED UP with facts and comparisons. I have no interest in being simply a cheerleader.

[scottfox]

dont want to scare you here Brian, but I started a thread over at EITG on this topic for the Igors.

[Vizfizz]

Well...I started this thread to potentially motivate more interest. Hopefully it will be productive and not just a war of words.

Any write up support on the Cow would be appreciated. I just need to realize that I can't do all of this myself.

[scottfox]

with EPS functionality, I have a win win situation. #1 a great tool to work with #2 a tool
I can honestly push to others.

Im looking forward to being a little more well rounded in the creative community.

[MarsViolet]

I have to admit that I've been aware of these plug-ins for a long time — I could be accused even of buying plug-ins flippantly just to play with them as toys — and yet I never bought these ones because I didn't (and still don't) quite get what I'd use them for. I'm not sure what it is that's not clear about their purpose other than in general I just don't quite get it. Where would I use them? Maybe I just haven't poked around the web site enough.

One thing I can tell you is that I have an adverse reaction to abstract names and weird GUIs. Scrim, for example. The hell does that mean? It may well have some deep meaning in motion graphics or CG Land, but to me it's like when cop looks at me and whispers "5150" into his radio. Actually, I know exactly what "5150" means since I hear it every weekend, but. . .

But my point being that it would be easier to sell these things if the trade-specific terminology were toned down. I've been using EI for years, but I still have to stop and think when somebody says "torus" or "null."

For example: . . .designed to scan its child entities and loft a surface between its children. My brain shuts down when faced with such abstraction. First, I have no children, and the only entities I ever see are when I've been on a bender and wake up in the cemetery. Eventually I do manage to crawl back to my loft, but . . . there are no children there. . . .

[MarsViolet]

One more thing. It's a little too hard to buy stuff. There should be "add to cart" and "check out" buttons on the main product pages, plus prices right there. Make it easy. I would even add the text, "You can be using this plug-in in minutes."

There's a reason the chewing gum is right next to the checkout stand in the supermarket.

Also, while there's some really great sample images, I often — no usually — don't know at a glance which aspects of each image were created or enhanced by leveraging the plug-in. You need a from this to this with before and after renders.

In other words, it has to be so obvious that even a caveman such as I can see it.

[Reuben5150]

If they have NO other choice but to hire people that are, well, the way they appear to be, then it saddens me. Polite and reasoned responses to our requests and concerns is not TOO much to expect from EI and its representatives.


I do sometimes think they have too much control over developement at EI, maybe, and as Paul mentioned they are often misunderstood and also misunderstand "us", PR is definitly not their strong point, i suspect thats why they stopped posting on here.

I guess they need people who are experienced with the EI code, about as rare as rocking-horse sh*t.

[richardjoly]

Well, this is one of the best thread I've read in months! I just love to feel the passion in each post. Excellent points were made. Now, to get back at the Paralumino plugins, I was one of the earlier adopters. It was more of an encouragement to developers than a tool to fill a need. In fact, I must agree with Mark, Scrim, Swage and trestle are not names that gives a clue to what it performs. I would not be able to suggest anything better for english is not my primary language (I'm writing with software help) but the names alone won't attract potential users. The interactivity of each plug wasn't clear either at first but I must say that the numerous videos available answered my questions.

I have no formal studies or training in the 2d or 3d area. I learn in books, in this and other Forums and I just LOVE it when I can see real world example of a plugin use.
Scott, I admire your talent and I'm pretty sure, as Dave mentioned, that you could come up with excellent Mograph examples that would really make a difference in promoting these tools.

As for suggestion, the ability to import an image in Trestle would be nice. Now, don't bash me, out of using EPS, that's all I could come up with...

[PaulS2]

Just a quick comment....the Igors mention on the EI forum that EPS is a PITA but .ai is do-able...anywhay, that's what I got out of their comments.

Actually .ai is far more prevalent and what I was refering to when EPS was mentioned. Basically a common Illustrator vector format. EIM is the only 3D app which I know which requires EPS versions - I would far prefer to see that changed to .ai as it would eliminate a conversion step for me. All my clients use .ai - none EPS.

[Vizfizz]

Then obviously I haven't done my job then. If its still misunderstood as to what these plugins can do then I better start over again. I thought for sure the videos I created explained their capabilities quite straight forwardly.

As for names...well.. I can't really say that Invigorator is exactly descriptive either, but if you wanna blame someone for the names, blame me. Each name is just based on an english word that means something along the lines (metaphorically) of what the plugin can do or creates.

Trestle: Beams or structure framework used to build bridges or other infrastructure.
Scrim: Cloth or a flexible wall used in theatre to define shapes or environments.
Swage: A metal workers tool used to forge, squeeze or bend steel into unique shapes.

The other plugin names, Braider, Runline, Revolver were more straightforward, but save Mr. Revolver none of them are exactly "direct".

A lot of EI plugins have strange names that aren't exactly descriptive.

Dante, Encage, Bebel, Zeus... but we've grown to accept them. I guess I just didn't want bland names like:

Profile Creator, or Extruder, Or Lofter....

It seems so unoriginal.

Oh well

[Vizfizz]

Paul

As I wrote in the EI forum:

I’ve grown so accustom to working in Illustrator and exchanging data between .ai and .eps files that the two formats just became sunonomous. I’ve always known that they are different, but yet when I’ve been screaming at the top of my lungs for “eps” support I’ve really been saying I want to import illustrator files into EI and Trestle.

I’m sorry Igors for all the frustration I’ve put you through over this issue. Once again, it came down to misunderstanding and communication. If .ai import could ever become a possibility I think several people would be quite pleased.

[Vizfizz]

Come to think about it. I don't think invigorator even used .eps files. With Invig, users had to convert all selections to outlines before saving in "illustrator" format. Invigorator didn't use an automatic eps parser to convert text shapes into outlines on the fly...the user had to do it for the software manually.

Somewhere the term "eps" got used in the initial conversation of creating Trestle and its been used ever since. No wonder the Igors have been so resistant.

[MarsViolet]

Profile Creator, or Extruder, Or Lofter....

It seems so unoriginal.

On the other hand, "Paralumino Extruder" sounds pretty hardcore, like something that would break on the Millenium Falcon and prevent the hyperdrive from working.

[PaulS2]

There's the beauty of communication - keep at it till things smoothen out and understanding is present.

Hopefully they can get behind .ai!

[MarsViolet]

Actually .ai is far more prevalent and what I was refering to when EPS was mentioned.

Yeah, and isn't .ai really .pdf anyway? Or a subset?

[PaulS2]

Then obviously I haven't done my job then. If its still misunderstood as to what these plugins can do then I better start over again. I thought for sure the videos I created explained their capabilities quite straight forwardly.

As for names...well.. I can't really say that Invigorator is exactly descriptive either, but if you wanna blame someone for the names, blame me. Each name is just based on an english word that means something along the lines (metaphorically) of what the plugin can do or creates.

Trestle: Beams or structure framework used to build bridges or other infrastructure.
Scrim: Cloth or a flexible wall used in theatre to define shapes or environments.
Swage: A metal workers tool used to forge, squeeze or bend steel into unique shapes.

The other plugin names, Braider, Runline, Revolver were more straightforward, but save Mr. Revolver none of them are exactly "direct".

A lot of EI plugins have strange names that aren't exactly descriptive.

Dante, Encage, Bebel, Zeus... but we've grown to accept them. I guess I just didn't want bland names like:

Profile Creator, or Extruder, Or Lofter....

It seems so unoriginal.

Oh well

I also have to agree on using cool sounding names which mean very little - I still get confused on which pluggin does what. I know other software has had users which had negative response to creative names which also meant very little.

Tell me what 'Banji' does!:-)

Mindlessly simple, easy to understand always works best for me.

[MarsViolet]

Yeah, and isn't .ai really .pdf anyway? Or a subset?

I guess this answers it:

Illustrator file format Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Illustrator_Artwork)

[splitpoint]

Brian,

You keep mentioning videos demostrating the products but I've gone over your site and I can't seem to find those videos. So, maybe your videos would do the trick of showing what's possible but if they aren't in a place that anyone can see them they probably aren't doing you any good. I'd love to check them out.

Also, I have some of the plugins and I'd like to see some improvements in the documentation. A couple tutorials being made available would really help.

Lastly, I held off for a long time buying Trestle, Scim, and MR Revolver because there should have been a bundle made available which contained all of those plugins along with Braider and Swage at a discount. You've already mentioned that Igors didn't want to do that but I would've purchased all of the plugins if there was a bundle that made it attractive and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Based on the plugins that I've used I think the plugins are useful as they stand. AI or EPS import would be handy but if there were some more tutorials available showing what can be done I think you might sell some more product. Also, I agree with what has been said regarding the gallery - more specific info is needed for which plugin created what geometry along with an outline of steps showing how "easy" it was.

I'd really like to see a demo of how Uwe's car was modeled.

[Vizfizz]

Al,

With the new webstore, I've incorporated all the videos as direct download links within the plugins description. Originally, they were videos that actually had to be selected in the shopping cart and downloaded. (Though completely free). Now they're just streaming videos.

Now that I've rebuilt the webstore...its time to rebuild the website. It needs a face lift. I'll also include direct links there.

Here is an example of what I'm talking about:

http://www.paralumino.com/x_cart/product.php?productid=16138&cat=0&page=1&featured

Product video tours are selectable within the product's description. Take a look.

[Vizfizz]

There's the beauty of communication - keep at it till things smoothen out and understanding is present.

Hopefully they can get behind .ai!

I just hope the constant head banging on this subject, along with other things, just hasn't turned them off completely. I guess I'll just have to reinforce my resolve with additional sales effort. Hopefully they will appreciate that.

[MagicEgger]

Brian,

I have a suggestion..
Before everything..
Why you dont contact Zax and get Vector and Invigorator to be released by Paralumino?
EIAS will have EPS fast, You could ask Igors to help you to port to UB.
Its the easiest step without burn tons of cells brains How to figure out EIAS EPS prb.

Try it.
Lots of chances to work.

Thanks

Tomas

[splitpoint]

Al,

With the new webstore, I've incorporated all the videos as direct download links within the plugins description.

Ahhh, it's on the store page! I was looking for them on the product description page accessed by the Scrim, Trestle, Braider, Swage buttons on the left when you first enter the Paralumino site. You should probably fix that when you next update the site.

I'll be sure to check 'em out. Thanks for pointing that out to me.

[Vizfizz]

Brian,

I have a suggestion..
Before everything..
Why you dont contact Zax and get Vector and Invigorator to be released by Paralumino?
EIAS will have EPS fast, You could ask Igors to help you to port to UB.
Its the easiest step without burn tons of cells brains How to figure out EIAS EPS prb.

Try it.
Lots of chances to work.

Thanks

Tomas

Interesting suggestion. I can try, but if I were to do that I would essentially be killing Mr. Revolver, Bebel, Trestle and Swage in one fell swoop. The point of the Paralumino products, in my viewpoint, was to find a potential replacement for those products because Zax wont support EI directly anymore. Not to mention, Paralumino wouldn't be able to really provide tech support for those products or modify them to any reasonable degree. I'd rather support the Igors than Zax.

The solution is to hopefully expand the Paralumino product line to replace the lost functionality of the Zax line and make it even better with the Igors stackable plugin technology. The two workflows together would be considerably stronger than one alone.

[richardjoly]

No offense meant Brian.

I understand the idea behind the names you choose and all of them are fit for the product. We are just looking for any reason why the sales were not as expected.
If "Profile Creator", "Extruder", or "Lofter" are unoriginal (and they are) at least they give me a hint of what they do. Names are names, I just think that PowerParticles is a better name than Dante for marketing a particle generator. Again, good examples of what the product can do is a better seller.
Invigorator is a strange name, I agree. But almost everybody needed that plug. He could have called it R2D2 without loosing one sale. I need Obj2Fact. Call it C3PO if you want... (He is a translator...) The fact is Trestle, Scrim, Swage, braider etc. are GREAT products. People just don't know what they can do with them.

The videos you made are excellent to understand the functionality of the products. If I remember well, you covered every buttons and options. It helped a lot but I am not a creative guy. If I could see imaginative "Real world" examples of animations done with Paralumino products the style Scott Novasic has with Invigorator or the Crouzet brothers over at Guet-Apens and not just a still (nice but still a still...) I would be more encouraged to try the product. Knowing how to operate a camera will not make me a photographer. Seeing work done by others might inspire me.

Of course if EIAS had better marketing strategies for itself, all the plugin developers would have an easier job. In the meantime, where do you advertise your product? CgTalk EIAS forum, EIAS website and forum, the EI list, the EI Platter and lets forget Postforum... How many users is that? Many, I'm sure but not all of them. With a new voice on Creative Cow and the future marketing of Tesla I hope the EIAS plugin developers have a better chance.

[MagicEgger]

Ola,

“I can try, but if I were to do that I would essentially be killing Mr. Revolver, Bebel, Trestle and Swage in one fell swoop”

I really think they dont make the same thing..
I have both Invigorator and Vector Lathe (EIAS 2.9), for me Invigorator means = Animated Logos only.

Thanks

Tomas

[juanxer]

Actually, I think we all meant Illustrator's .AI or .ART when mentioning EPS (wasn't the Illustrator format sort of a simplified EPS, anyway?).

EIM accepts .ARTs and .AIs without problems.

[Vizfizz]

My position on the Paralumino plugin lineup is to provide a tiered approach to 3D modeling and animation through the EIAS inventory. My discussions with Brad reveals that he too wants to tier the EI product line to provide 3D capabilities to all users. Both novice and advanced alike. He wants "consumer/prosumer" customers and "professional" users...and each tapping into specific markets. Broadcast Design, Film VFX, Architecture, and Graphic Design.

Knowing this I can extrapolate what the future of the EIAS lineup might look like even though I am not EITG's marketing manager.

EIAS will ad Tesla into the mix and that will in turn increase the price of EIAS. This increase in price may push EIAS out of range for some users. Believe it or not folks, increasing the value of EIAS base price isn't a bad thing. But, to stay competitive EI could potentially continue to just offer EIAS sans Tesla as an entry level product. Tesla is expected to be sold as a stand alone product as well. This is a classic "Trojan Horse" tactic to get EITG technologies into potential markets because its new and modern and eventually be capable of tapping into Camera as well. And if you think Tesla's price will remain fixed, think again. As Tesla's features increase, I'd expect its price to increase as well.

Within the EIAS product line up you can expect to see Camera as the center of the EIAS world. A lot of effort has been placed in keeping Camera current and competitive as a renderer.

As Tesla evolves, technologically it will eventually outshine Animator. A determination must be made by the EITG administration on how to deal with this. Either continue to retrofit Animator or re-reroute animation responsibilities to a more modern package (Tesla). There is a third option in this scenario. Don't abandon anything, but eventually position both applications to address the hobbyist to professional divide.

This is where I believe the Paralumino product lineup could be positioned. I will be the first to admit that the technologies within the Paralumino lineup will be primitive in comparison to Tesla, but that doesn't mean the would not be desired.

The Paralumino products, especially with Illustrator compatibility, would provide entry level EIAS users with a methodology to create 3D geometry within the animation package without having to learn a sophisticated 3D modeling application. The additional bonus of the Paralumino product lineup is it possesses animation channels that Animator can use to modify and animate geometry on the component level. Something that Tesla cannot do, and something Animator can't do when importing static models.

Thus, and in conclusion, if the Igors would permit a bundled package of the Paralumino plugins, it could:

1. Serve as a logical 3D bridge for 2D graphic designers embracing 3D for the first time.

2. For Broadcast Designers who want to integrate 3D into their workflow within a single package.

3. For Animators and VFX artists who want to expand their animation capabilities within Animator.

4. To provide a means of integration for all plugins that utilize geometry in their pipelines. This ranges from Placer Deposit, to Dante, to Bebel, to Encage, to Pathfinder, to Contortionist and so on.

Trestle, I believe, can be the key to it all. Especially if Illustrator and Tesla wires can be imported into the Trestle drawing editor.

[arketype]

Interesting suggestion. I can try, but if I were to do that I would essentially be killing Mr. Revolver, Bebel, Trestle and Swage in one fell swoop.

Well we certainly don't want that! ;)

We all know this is tough. "lifting one's self up by one's bootstraps" so to speak.

If I am not mistaken formZ still only supports .ai version 3...
but v3 always works ;)

Supporting simple .ai lines in these plugs would obviously give users a great amount of freedom and control. Complex 2d shapes could just be drawn in illustrator and imported.

Of course Illustrator can export to dxf and Transporter can convert dxf lines to fact......

But what is really needed is .ai lines imported directly into Trestle with cv's intact for editing within the plugin.

Truly a killer feature for Mograph.

[ediris]

So as PaulS mentioned .ai files is doable. I think the debate is finally closed.

I dont have any of the products that Paralumino has but one thing that comes into mind is the ability for Bezier curves in Trestle since is the hub of the others.
An yes i will get one bundle at least of Paralumino set.Cant wait to use them together with Mograph Module for my work. I think motion grpahics is not just logo animation( that is silly to say)but if it comes to that is finding the many way to get to your logo in,is where it takes place in either a rusty , grunge, calm enviroment.

Scott get the word out i really want EI to rock the motion industry. But i think is gonna take more than throwing yourself under a bus.;)

Brian , that was you commenting those useful video tut. Nice to see you live.

One more thing so i could use it with other plug ins to make a an .ai file into a dante particle?
Or i could align a geometry to another geomtry kind like many spheres attached to a single sphere?
How about the ability to interact with rodeo . eg where you can loft some curves and create a garment that reacts to forces in rodeo?
What about displacement maps or Deformers where you can attach to polys geometry and you can edit them depending on where do you want to influence the geometry created in any of your plugins?
Just some situations i have being thinking they will be useful.

Cheers.

(excuse my poor english)

[sacslacker]

I'm not very experienced with EI so I'm not the most informed but competing with C4D in the motion graphics world is going to be pretty tough no? It has an incredible toolset in this area. Super robust export to AE, Mograph, etc. It's renderer isn't Camera that's for sure but as far as motion graphics go, it seems to have quite the robust toolset. For a little over $1000, you get a ton of stuff including body paint, Illustrator support, Mograph, etc. IF the price for EI gets to that price point and is attacking the motion graphics community, I'd think they'd have to come up with a really unique workflow to answer C4D's capabilities in this area.

I'm not dumping on EI, just trying to be realistic. I seriously tried to use EI for all my work a while ago and just couldn't. Now, I take full blame for being too new at the application but I didn't have nearly the learning curve when I recently had to work in Cinema 4D. I think that is another hurdle that has to be overcome. I literally was up and running in a couple days with C4D.

[Vizfizz]

Brian...

C4D Core is $900. Mograph is $395. The XL bundle is $2,195. The Studio bundle is $3495. To me that sounds rather pricey.

EIAS is $795. Adding Tesla will likely add $300 or so to that price point. Thus making the two products roughly equal in their core price points. Each package requires additional plugins and products to round them out, but if you were just looking for a "Mograph" bundle, EI plus an aggressively priced Paralumino bundle (without Tesla) would be less expensive than C4D and Mograph by a couple hundred dollars. The advantage C4D has is Body Paint. The advantage EI has is a better Renderer. (Though that is a matter of opinion).

[ediris]

Ok
Trestel ans Scrim combo 200$
Braider and Swage combo 185$
EIAS Upgrade 445$
DUo Dongle 50$

vs

Cinema competitive upgrade 795$
Mograph module 395$

How much different is one product beside the other. Camera or Bodypaint.
I am not interested in getting Tesla i will still uase my old EIM. But how about
some shaders for EI or some UV editor. Well it kepps going on and on.
ANd dont even think in adding some particle generators to EI

[Vizfizz]

Well as far as pricing goes, I'd like to see an entire Paralumino bundle that includes everything in one shot.

Trestle (2D Drawing), Scrim(Lofting), Swage(Extruding), Revolver(Lathing), & Braider (Surface wires). Support Plugs that are free and included are: Path2Line, Wiremaker, Superlines & Runline.

Support Plugs that are not free but work great with Paralumino are: Encage (SDS Surface), Bebel (Beveling), Placer Deposit (Instancing), Pathfinder (Animate to path), Contortionist (Deformations on path), Flexpath (Deformation on path), and the particle systems for particle surface generation like Dante and Power Particles (If they go UB).

As for a price point, well...I'd want to make it as competitive to Mograph as possible. But realistically, it might have to be a touch more. The other issue would be getting the Igors to agree on providing a master bundle.

I have ideas for other modules that would be nice...but one step at a time. lol

[sacslacker]

Brian...

C4D Core is $900. Mograph is $395. The XL bundle is $2,195. The Studio bundle is $3495. To me that sounds rather pricey.


Good point. I was off a bit in my price comparison. I think your idea for bundling your plugins as a motion graphics suite is a great idea. That's basically what MoGraph is; a bunch of utilities that work seemlessly together.

Oh, and you're right, EI Camera > Advanced Render. =)

EDIT: Not like my opinion holds the weight of anyone in this thread by the way.

[Vizfizz]

Everyone's opinion matters.

[scottfox]

a couple of things. Brian, Invigerator is formally known as "EPS invigerator" which IS a great name. You are invigerating, or breathing life into an eps file.

for anyone that thinks invigerator just models text has not viewed my reel. Whether you like my work or not, I do model a lot of objects with it. My Zaxwerks demo reel was requested of me by zax. Its longer than my current reel. Lots of samples. I am very proud of my ability to use that tool to its fullest. And show some of it off on his website. (fyi - it looks like I will also be a leader on the Zaxwerks forum on the cow as well, if Ron doesn't change his mind on me :)

over on the ei forums, I gave my best shot at convincing the igors that ai import for the paralumino products would SELL like hotcakes. Plus I would imagine spur Brian and them to make even more custom tools. I agree totally with Brians view of where EI is going. Thats what confounds me with the igors. EI is only 2 major features away from being
a mograph monster. 1 a multithreaded Camera 2 ai import at the plug in level -- Either with Paraluminos offerings (YES YES YES) OR incorporated into ubershapes with some Zaxwerks like abilities. I even offered essentially, to promote the hell out of it on the Cow with reviews and tutorials etc. My review (and YES it WILL eventually get done and published) makes a credible argument for EI as a motion graphics app to consider as in my opinion your Best 3d option. My audience at the cow is huge and much more mograph friendly than CG Talk. Brian had a MUCH tougher audience to write a review for. I couldn't do it anywhere near as well as him. Im less technical and more visual and as I LIKE to call myself - logically passionate.

Lastly, Brian and anyone else -- about cinema 4ds pricing First off as Phil tells me all the time, NO ONE ever pays full price for EI. I guarantee you, for $795 you will get EI & Tesla. (probably retail at $999) Tesla standalone ($595 firm)

Everyone forgets cinemas little hidden 'fees' Core $900 Mograph $400 Dynamics (to equal EI you will need to buy dynamics) $4-500 and last but NOT least NET RENDER $500 for unlimited network rendering that EI charges BUTKIS for. The score is - EI\tesla + Paralumino = roughly $995 Cinema $2300-$2400 Add in ease of use, Cameras quality
and price and we have a winner. I CAN SELL THIS. How frustrating that I cant seem to get EI as excited about ITSELF as I AM about it :(

The igors are just not understanding the 2 tier products concept. This is not 1994 anymore, EI has to compete in the areas its strongest in. I am so frustrated this is killing me.....

With respect to Brian, id love his products to be the solution, but even I am having all kinds of trouble understanding them and their use. It all stems from the creation of these "wires"? motion Paths? I agree that better naming will help, but without ai integration their appeal to a large group of people is improbable. A huge majority of people in my industry are provided logos and designs created in illustrator. To attempt to copy their look in a plugin without ai import would be a waste of time AND inaccurate. Even WITH bezier handles in the interface.

No one seems to care what I think, I am half ready to write my own business plan, present it to ZAX, an old friend from back in 1993-4 and find a way to GET IT DONE. I will invest my own cash into this, I believe in it so strongly. With respect to Brian
as I said before, he is so close. And its cliche' but yet so far. He's the investor and
owner of Paralumino, I dont know if my dollars and promotions would help him or even
be considered. EI is the only major 3d program without an integrated modeler. Even with tesla, it will not have one. This is a major business opportunity that needs to
happen, and for motion graphics beginners to mid level designers alike. The 3d climate
is perfect right now for this and EI is the perfect vehicle for it. I just may explore
this, I dont know much, but I do know EI and I do understand designers. Tune in later,
I am aware of a few other people who may be willing to invest in making this happen.
You never know, EIMG may not be too far away. (thats Electric Image Motion Graphics)
I will talk to who I need to, and investigate this further. Wish me luck...

The Igors, god bless em, just dont get how well EI will sell with that capability, they KEEP referring to the fact that Tesla will have it. NOT in a way any mograph guy would like however, but I am just a user who wants it all to them. Im not paid to evangelize for EI, but people like myself, well, if were ignored too many times will simply fade away.
I used EI for over a decade without saying a word until recently. I feel I can help in a positive way......

[ediris]

Hey Scott i can help from Europe to promote EI since there are just a few users in Europe that uses EIAS (mainly Spain where the industy is mostly 3dMAX,Maya,XSI and some C4D) once i get some money from a client i will start doing a lot of work using EI and Paralumino product line , i want to help from this side of the world.
Adios amigo.

PS: What about Cristobal Villa i rember he did some intensive 3 day course in Barcelona on EIAS long time ago, i didnt go it was way to expensive for me but you can also talk to him to promote EIAS in Spain.

[PaulS2]

Scott - good attempt.

I know your frustration in trying to get some motion happening in a certain area.....I have certainly been there.

When you get hired to create some animation, I'm sure one of the criteria in you getting the job has to do with how well you can come up with solutions....artistic, visual and motion solutions. Myself, I take pride in coming up with solutions to clients problems.

I'm sure if you told your client every reason why something couldn't be done (and there are always many why something can't be done) and showed no interest or passion in what you did you wouldn't last long with this client.

People want solutions...not excuses. Vital, passionate ideas and individuals moving forward is what life is about - they don't walk around with a huge list of no's. Sure, mistakes can be made when trying new ground - hopefully not too many. Yes, experience tells us to be careful - the only guaranteed safe thing there is is to do nothing.....but that's not very interesting for any of us.

So, good shot...you, Brian....the other's who spoke up. Good on trying to instill a little bit of passion and interest into that big hole of no's:-)

EI as a company will survive if they can be vital, passionate and interested in what they are doing. If too many no's are presented, the young passionate companies will attract all of the attention away from them.....C4D, Modo come to mind.

[arketype]

Hey Scott-
Great posts.
Please keep up the enthusiasm, but also be patient.

A note about comments from the two Igors and my take...
They understand software development in the EIAS arena very well.
They definitely heard our arguments, and understood. I think they have been very receptive to my input in the past, and responded to our posts in an interested yet conservative manner.
They have NOT said "no". They have only said "let's wait a bit".

Here's why...

1) Tesla is a wild card...who knows what it's going to be capable of or what features really need to be added/ supplemented by a 3rd party....
2) Brian and the Igors have limited resources (especially time) and more is on the to do list than there is time- focus is critical. So the $$/time equation MUST make sense. Their experience in this area has taught them repeatedly that profits for EI plugin development are slim, but it can be worthwhile. They are only being cautious.
3) They are currently very busy in early v8 development.

That being said... I think Mograph is a great market for EIAS.

The missing key is .ai import and editing within Paralumino plugs.
We should talk more about how this might happen/ how to most efficiently add this functionality.

one last opinion...
I have to disagree with you that MP camera is that important for Mograph.
Every test I have run on EIAS shows very linear performance increases using Renderama when animating (multiple frames simultaneously).

Looking at C4D's MP Cinebench results you will see that every time you double the # of processors you will get about a 50% performance improvement. So MP performance of C4D on an 8 core mac pro might be somewhere around 3.5 times faster than a single processor, not bad and this is typical of most rendering engines. Renderama is almost 100% efficient. It will be very nearly 8 times faster on the same Mac pro.
So "true" MP performance for animation may actually be SLOWER than renderama's multiple frame method of rendering.
MP Camera will be important for people like me, Ian, and Paul S. who do lots of high resolution stills, but the MP solution for animation seems to be here now. It's name is Renderama. ;)

I am very hopeful for the future of EIAS with people like you and Brian willing to stick your necks out and promote the platform.
Dave

[Vizfizz]

Scott...

Don't give up on me yet. I'm not quite "done" in trying to get this passed. As for your comments on naming and marketing, I'm quite open to "retooling" the approach for more "visual" people. I consider myself to be one...but maybe I did get too technical with its presentation. I do have to ask though...have you seen my product video tours on Trestle, Scrim and Swage? I go over everything and explain each button and its capabilities. I am willing to remake these in your image if it help sells more products. :) Perhaps we can do something together or maybe through combined financial effort we can entice the Igors to surrender their majority and give rights of ownership to the two of us... then simply hire them to do what we ask. We take all the risk...and they just get a paycheck. Thing is I've tried that in the past too.. and they refused. The word stubborn comes to mind.

Unfortunately the Igors are setting up this scenario as an either/or condition. As I've suspected, they've set themselves up as Judge and Jury as to what's best for EITG and quite frankly its been that behavior that has been weighing EI down for years. Camera remains the Igors swan song and they wish to remain in rendering Nirvana and as more and more artists and programmers leave EI we find ourselves in a rather limited gene pool. Stagnation and homogeny sets in. This is what I've been dealing with for quite a while now. They just may simply be denying this development in order to prove a point.

I'm off to go and respond to the Igors post. Should be interesting.

[Vizfizz]

Oh.. and Dave... I fully realize the Igors and deep into V8 development. I would not ask them to drop that in favor of this until v8 is done. That would be counter productive. The problem, and you can see it in their posts is they simply do not believe in what we're pitching.

The reason for this, I believe, is because they don't have a solid grasp of these markets and using the programs in a production setting. Its a classic developer vs artist argument.

[ediris]

Hi Brian i think i know what is the missing link here. Is because people are not use to the plugin interface in EI. Thay are more used to the interface and things happening as they go. Is being done evrywhere that is why i suggest enhancing Animator there is a lot of thing that can be done to become apealing to new users. I dont care if the UI buttons are cute or not. But make it less mathematical correct. I insist animator needs a new look and feel.
Paralumino plugins are depending upon the sales of the host application.So their hands are tied up but they are also programming for the next version of EIAS. So i think there is too much pressure on them for their revenues.

[futagoza]

It´s pretty interesting to follow the discussion here and at EITG´s Forum.
Question for Scott and Paul:

When you are so sure that the MoGraph Industrie folks would jump on the EIAS bandwagon if it or the Paraluminum plug´s would have .ai import (and you see that this would probably not happen in the near future?!) why you just simply tell the MoGraph users at the Cow not about an Zax ProModler solution in combination with EIAS. As understood you work many years with this product and you or Paul stated that folks want to start with simply things like extruding beveling an .ai file? And wouldn´t the Paraluminum plugs not fit within this Workflow ProModeler/Tresle etc.?

Regards
Stefan

[Reuben5150]

As I've suspected, they've set themselves up as Judge and Jury as to what's best for EITG and quite frankly its been that behavior that has been weighing EI down for years.


I wondered when someone would have the balls to say that, now it just need repeating to the right people.

[Vizfizz]

Hi Brian i think i know what is the missing link here. Is because people are not use to the plugin interface in EI. Thay are more used to the interface and things happening as they go. Is being done evrywhere that is why i suggest enhancing Animator there is a lot of thing that can be done to become apealing to new users. I dont care if the UI buttons are cute or not. But make it less mathematical correct. I insist animator needs a new look and feel.
Paralumino plugins are depending upon the sales of the host application.So their hands are tied up but they are also programming for the next version of EIAS. So i think there is too much pressure on them for their revenues.

Thanks for the comment. Unfortunately in order to remove and eliminate the popup plugin interface for this kind of capability, several core infrastructure technologies need to implemented into EI. We've identified two in particular that are critical. One technology is called "Hidden Plugins" and the one we've called "Mesh".

Hidden Plugins would allow the EI infrastructure to access micro programs inside the main application without accessing the typical plugin interface and API. Thus all of Trestles functionality could be added and it would seemingly appear to be apart of the host application.

Secondly "Mesh" is required to teach Animator how to understand component level objects. (Aka CV points and vertex selection) Without this, Animator is blind to understand clusters, spline curves, lattices, and vertex manipulation.

Animator was never intended to be a component level animation package. It is an object level animation package. Aka..it only understands the object as a singular device with a single center pivot point. Nothing more.

Getting Mesh and Hidden Plugins into Animator is a monumental task. It could take v9 and v10 to accomplish it... all the while no new tools could be completed cause it would probably be all hands on deck for that. With our limited talent pool for Animator programmers...the process could take longer.

Paralumino plugins are attempting to resolve this conflict by providing a simple, but reasonable alternative until such advances are made (if they're even made at all). This also taps into the core of the Character Animation debate. The reason why Animator makes a poor choose for CA is because it lacks the necessary component level tools to truly manipulate a character.

I don't want to over tax the Igors either...and I'm willing to wait my turn...but I just don't want to be shot down just because they think its impractical... especially when so many others are saying its not.

[Vizfizz]

It´s pretty interesting to follow the discussion here and at EITG´s Forum.
Question for Scott and Paul:

When you are so sure that the MoGraph Industrie folks would jump on the EIAS bandwagon if it or the Paraluminum plug´s would have .ai import (and you see that this would probably not happen in the near future?!) why you just simply tell the MoGraph users at the Cow not about an Zax ProModler solution in combination with EIAS. As understood you work many years with this product and you or Paul stated that folks want to start with simply things like extruding beveling an .ai file? And wouldn´t the Paraluminum plugs not fit within this Workflow ProModeler/Tresle etc.?

Regards
Stefan

I'll chime in...

Its because people have grown quite accustom to having one package or a "family" of packages by a single entity to meet all their needs whenever its possible. People don't normally like having to mesh multiple programs together to accomplish a singular task unless that package is truly "open architecture" which EI is not. This is what I identified in my review of EIAS. The decentralized and segregated approach to programming is no longer desirable by today's market place.

EI fails to attract new users because users get frustrated trying to make it work with so many other applications to accomplish very specific and simple tasks that are already apart of the core packages of EI's competitors. If Paralumino was developed to the degree I'd want it..it would eventually be offered as a bundle package at the time of purchase... much like Mograph for C4D.

Can we ensure that people will hop on the EI bandwagon should this happen? Not entirely... but I can tell you we'll give people far more reason to honestly consider EI again.

Finally...the reason why I think its important to make it a pure EI solution is because it lends credibility to EI's ability to meet the needs of the customer. Anytime you have to say, "Sorry, you need to purchase another program outside of our product lineup to get the task done" the potential customer goes... "Forget that.".

[Vizfizz]

As suspected the Igors torpedoed the whole effort on the EI forum.

With this turn of events, I would suspect you'll never see development on the Paralumino lineup again. I'll be lucky if they even provide support anymore. I'll do what I can... but I absolutely need your help. Please voice your opinion in the EI thread....and I'll will bring Brad into this if I can.

[juanxer]

...MP Camera will be important for people like me, Ian, and Paul S. who do lots of high resolution stills, but the MP solution for animation seems to be here now. It's name is Renderama. ;)(If a Preview Render mode that transparently takes advantage of Strip Rendering was implemented, my guess is most needs for an MP Camera could be obviated. Let's hope something turns up in v8, as this has been mentioned before. The fact that this Renderama approach produces so linear gains per processor while multithreading lags far behind ought to be trumpeted somewhere :))

[futagoza]

As suspected the Igors torpedoed the whole effort on the EI forum.

With this turn of events, I would suspect you'll never see development on the Paralumino lineup again. I'll be lucky if they even provide support anymore. I'll do what I can... but I absolutely need your help. Please voice your opinion in the EI thread....and I'll will bring Brad into this if I can.

That would be very sad! Well even if it´s not my business, but have you considered also something like "GetACoder.com". Maybe this could help for future projects...

Regards
Stefan

[ediris]

Ok Brian than at least work on the HiddenPlugin feauture, i know that animator is not intended for a component level animation,but that should be the main focus of EITG.
What about if they sell licnses of Camera that way we could do the sme then C4D, get into the big studios with C4D Bodypaint we could do the same with Camera that way people could use EI form time to time in the big studios and slowly we will get into the big studios again.
More money and more programmers that can bring EI to the 90`s golden age.

[Vizfizz]

Yes I suppose I could... if I want to start completely over from scratch. Quite frankly, that's taking too many steps backwards and I have far too many other things I could be spending my time on. I'm doing this purely out of loving concern for this application. But I'll play the martyr now and say, "Maybe its just not worth it.". That's not to illicit sympathy, but rather to just simply say maybe its time for me to just go back to being a simple EI user. If the Igors want to carry the banner as to what's "right" for EI maybe I should just let them. They could be right as far as I know...but I just think its unfair of them to dictate the way they do.

Perhaps EI will come in and arbitrate. It would be worth their while...yet at the same time, I'm sure they don't want to piss off their primary coders. I just wonder if EITG can see how such narrow vision is negatively affecting their company.

[dieGolum]

it be great if one of the Paralumino's tools could trace the movement of polygons or vertices and turn them into path in order to use with Swage. It is a function that has MoGraph module from Cinema 4d, and is very usefull for MoGraph effects.

Cheers:)
Diego

[scottfox]

While I too am frustrated, I feel for Brian most. Someone asked me about invigerator.
Yes, it is an option I have used heavily. But I crave more control and options within EI.
Im getting my enthusiasm stomped out slowly by the igors, as well...

[richardjoly]

It is worth it Brian and you will never be a simple EI user.

Both of these threads started with simple questions: what features would you like to see in version 2 and on the other forum the Igors were asked if EPS import was feasible.
We learned that .ai was and it was great news.
Until it degenerated.
Bad things were said and one thing leading to another it started to slide in a bad direction. Both of these threads should be closed. Enough was said.

My english is not that good. Lucky for me. I might have said things I would regret. But as it takes me 20 minutes to write a paragraph (I rewrite it 15 times and pass every word trough the dictionary to write something intelligible...) I refrained.

- So we now know that .ai could be considered.
- Not by the Igors for a foreseeable future.
- Scott is VERY enthusiastic and a little edgy when things are not moving fast enough. This burning flame well channeled will benefit us all.
The Paralumino Plugins are hard to market outside our small sphere. Creative Cow will certainly help at least a bit. We all should bring ideas here to boost current sales.
- The idea of investing (pre-sale?) to hire a programmer seems something to investigate.
- Why rewrite everything if Trestle is missing the most? A new program to input "stuff" for Scrim, Swage and revolver could be done outside the current arrangement with the Igors without sacrificing all the plugs (Here, you see, I really don't know what I'm talking about...) Just trying to be positive...

Anyway, all that came out is not negative, it was just mighty tiring...

Brian, it seems lots of things are in the lower part of the sine wave for you right now. It will come up again. Just take a step back, take a break and let the dust settle. We still need you here.

[Vizfizz]

Brian, it seems lots of things are in the lower part of the sine wave for you right now. It will come up again. Just take a step back, take a break and let the dust settle. We still need you here.

I'm an old man in this industry Richard. Perhaps its time to pass the torch to the next would be EI evangelist and focus on areas where I don't need to deal with such nonsense. Any volunteers? Its too much unnecessary stress to deal with those who refuse to reason. Continued video training is still a possibility for Paralumino though.

[jimjam]

Brian. I'm jumping in here late without reading everything that came before but I'm shocked at your last post.

You've been just an incredibly positive asset for EI in this forum and Paralumino. I've been genuinely impressed with how much you have given and how much you've contributed to my own knowledge of the industry and our favorite apps.

I read a bit of this thread yesterday, used your link to your plugin videos and spent about 2 late hours last night watching them.

I was truly blown away with what you were showing. Fricken hell. I hadn't really understood the potential of those Paralumino plugins. But your videos made it clear.

Please take a little break. I'm sure I speak for most at EI when I say I've been EXTREMELY thankful for your efforts and would be VERY discouraged if you lost heart and stopped trying.

When I met you at Siggraph in San Diego, the thing that most struck me (besides your professional ability at presentations and amazing portfolio of Hollywood work) was your strong passion for the future of Electric Image. And this from a man who could easily go other routes.

Since I haven't read all the posts prior to your last one, my message may be out of line. But I certainly hope you know how much your herculean efforts, strong passion grounded in vast experience, and fair-handed governance of this forum has meant to the EI community. Bravo and Encore.

Now back to a busy day at work.

Jim Mulcahy

[3dData]

Brian, stick around a while longer. I know how frustrating it can be when every idea is met with a negative response (I can't think of any suggestion that wasn't downplayed by the programmers). I'm surprised that EI didn't step into the discussion before it went really south. Having enthusiastic users is vital to EI's continuation, as it is for any software.

[arketype]

Brian,

Why not go in the "other" direction?

Hire a programmer to write a Fact wire exporter plugin for Illustrator itself.
Export to fact straight from Illustrator.

Just a thought... ;)

Dave

[3DArtZ]

Brian,

Why not go in the "other" direction?

Hire a programmer to write a Fact wire exporter plugin for Illustrator itself.
Export to fact straight from Illustrator.

Just a thought... ;)

Dave

I agree with this method. This is the best way to get things done, in general.
I would also suggest, one could setup a pay into fund and once the initial cash goal is reached from the community, a programmer could be hired to start work. If the cash target is never reached, then the money is returned to the initial investors....

Also why are the igors called "the igors"? are there several of them or what????

Mike Fitz
www.3dartz.com (http://www.3dartz.com/)

[Vizfizz]

Hey Jim...

You and Richard are probably right...I'll probably never be able to let this rest. I just need to regroup and try again to get my point across. I'm going to create a graphic diagram of exactly what I'm thinking. It should be able to visualize a pipeline that will make sense for both tiers of EIAS users. It will show, exactly, how all of this could become if people just listen.

EIAS is a fragmented myriad of plugins and codes and so forth and it needs unification. I think the Paralumino line can do that...at least for now. Perhaps as time progresses, we'll see the necessary infrastructure enhancements to Animator we need and Tesla will evolve into a 2nd Gen application. But its all gonna take a lot of time and money. Right now we need a means to bring it all together in one happy family.

Stay tuned... I will create this diagram and post it here.

[3dData]

FACT export from Illustrator. I like it!

[arketype]

Also why are the igors called "the igors"? are there several of them or what????
www.3dartz.com (http://www.3dartz.com/)


Yes. There are two of them. Igor & Igor.

They work as a team in developing EIAS features.

For simplicity they appear on all the forums under a single name "Igors".

[Vizfizz]

Ok.

I've created this pipeline graph to show the potential EIAS pipeline on a global scale. I need to make an even more detailed graph showing the capabilities that could be found in the "Integration Overlap" section found in purple.

Essentially its not dramatically different from what we have now. There is what I call the "Core Animation & FX District". This is essentially where most of us spend our time inside the EIAS pipeline. Its in blue and its outlined in black to show that its a single work area. We commonly know this environment as Animator.

Then there is the "Modeling District". This is in red.

The integration overlap is where "Sparks" resides.

"Sparks" is my code name for the Paralumino bundle or module of products that I would like to see as a potential add on to EIAS. The traditional names of the sub modules in Sparks are: Trestle, Scrim, Swage, Revolver, Bradier, Runline, Path2Line & Wiremaker. If Sparks were adopted I'm fine with renaming the sub modules into something less undefined.

Sparks purpose is to provide both Animation and Modeling subsystems inside the "Primary User Experience" (or Animator) and its positioned to compete directly with the likes of Mograph and to act as an integration bridge to Tesla (which is outside of the Primary User zone) and 3rd party 2D applications.

Sparks would also provide new modeling and animation capabilties inside Animator in order to unify both districts. When factoring in the 3rd party plugins, there its no easy method to supply existing geometry driven plugins with data without going through a multi step process. Sparks would attempt to eliminate that.

Next up...understanding Sparks' integration in detail.

[Vizfizz]

Without an internal modeling subsystem inside Animator you are limited entirely by static model imports from Tesla. These models, though infinitely more complex, are "vertex locked" once they enter Animator. Sure, you can deform the model through deformations but deformations can only provide one resource for animation. Plus deformations are not always precise.

The solution is to provide a system that is capable of manipulating the geometry of an object on the component level. Until specific infrastructure appears in Animator (aka Meshing and Hidden Plugs) we won't possess that capability for at least two more upgrades.

Sparks attempts to provide the infrastructure for more direct modeling and animation inside Animator now. The "hub" of Sparks is Trestle. Trestle provides a method to create wires and 2D polygonal shapes inside Animator. If Trestle was outfitted with Tesla wire importing capabilities and Illustrator file import capabiliites along with a few more internal Trestle drawing tools, the user would then be capable of potentially reconstructing basic geometry that is no longer "vertex locked" inside Animator. Are you going to model characters in Sparks? No. But what you will use Sparks for is to create geometry for nearly everything else...all inside the application and all non-destructively.

The stackable Sparks pipeline allows information from plugin to feed into the next plugins. The Igors were exceptionally spot on when providing this capability in all the sub-modules. ..but not only does it work in all the sub modules of Sparks, it works for nearly ALL plugins that utilize wire and 2d polygonal geometry.

Thus with Sparks you could:

Have custom animatable geometry to feed into Dante or PPP to act as wire or surface emitters for particles. Or how about using Trestle wires to act as source curves for Pathfinder, Flexpath or Contortionist.

I also posted this a while back to show how Trestle, Swage and Placer can do great things together:

http://www.paralumino.com/gallery/images/swage/Swage_Placer.jpg

We just need more development of this integration technology. Ultimately Sparks could be enhanced with more Motion Graphics modules that would trump MoGraph in spades. The possibilities become near infinite.

[richardjoly]

I don't get the direct link from 3rd Party Plugs to Camera. Don't they all have to go through Animator?
There is also a direct link from Tesla to Camera: wishful thinking?

The 3rd Party Apps direct to Spark is very interesting. .ai2Spark...?

[jimjam]

Very clear and helpful, Brian, as a reference point for discussing the global EIAS pipeline.

JimM

[Vizfizz]

As it stands now... the Igors are extremely resistent to expanding this technology because they find it redundant. Because initial sales of the plugins were sluggish, they don't want to invest more time. Sales were sluggish for a number of reasons. Namely lack of better promotion (my fault) and lack of a complete feature set (Igors).

I cannot stress enough how important these tools are for EIAS. It provides the Animation system with an additional level of depth to those wanting to customize their system. I've given this quite a bit of thought and quite personally, I can't see a better integration system that is nearly available now. It just needs that last bit of spit and polish.

[Vizfizz]

I don't get the direct link from 3rd Party Plugs to Camera. Don't they all have to go through Animator?
There is also a direct link from Tesla to Camera: wishful thinking?

The 3rd Party Apps direct to Spark is very interesting. .ai@Spark...?

Hi Richard...

Yes, I should clarify that. With the advent of EIAS v7, there are new capabitlities for 3rd party developers to write shaders that affect the rendering process in vitro so to speak. The new Depth of Field capabilities in EIAS v7 actually post processes DOF before anti aliasing and DOF can be achieved much faster than traditional multiframe DOF techniques.

Thus.. I placed a link directly to Camera for 3rd parties.

[Vizfizz]

Richard...

Yes.. thanks again.. you are right. EITG / Brad does eventually desire Tesla to have a direct link to Camera.

There yah go.

[richardjoly]

The direct line was there Brian, bottom left of Tesla to Camera. I just wanted to make sure it was or could be true.

[Vizfizz]

Heh... its early..

Where's my coffee?

[splitpoint]

FACT export from Illustrator. I like it!

Great idea....If you use illustrator. I'd be using Corel to save to AI format.

[ediris]

This images looks impressive from my point of view. These multiple faces could be texture ,oh my god is incredible how come is not saling like hot potetoes. I do not understand the entertaniment industry anymore,this sneak preveiw of the modules all together look a milion times better than the mograph module i am sorry for any C4D fans but it just blow me away.Is amazing how ignorant i feel now.I wonder how come nobody has come out with a bounch of video tutorials showing how these tools can work for you adding some other plug ins. This Paralumino kick a.. all over the place.
I hope they continued enhancing the tecnology and future version will be available soon.


this tols add so much flavor to Animator.Well We can wait for two more versions i only hope that other 3d developers still be in business.

[Vizfizz]

Ediris,

I'm way ahead of yah. I've had video tuts out on this stuff for over a year. Take a look in the store:

http://www.paralumino.com/x_cart/product.php?productid=16138&cat=0&page=1&featured

http://www.paralumino.com/x_cart/product.php?productid=16135&cat=260&page=1

http://www.paralumino.com/x_cart/product.php?productid=16136&cat=260&page=1

[Vizfizz]

There are also these older product video tours when we first designed Mr. Revolver for Konkeptoine and Paralumino. These kinda started them all.

www.paralumino.com/CG_Talk/revolver/Revolver1bp.mov

www.paralumino.com/CG_Talk/revolver/Revolver2bp.mov

www.paralumino.com/CG_Talk/revolver/Revolver3bp.mov

www.paralumino.com/CG_Talk/revolver/Revolver4bp.mov

www.paralumino.com/CG_Talk/revolver/Revolver5bp.mov

This shows integration with deformations, Encage, and Mrs. Bebel.

[arketype]

Brian-
I am always amazed when I see examples of these plugins... especially when used with other plugs like Placer. Your examples below show something quite extraordinary.

I think the only thing holding back sales is a lack of promotion and understanding of the products.

As Peter said..... Promote and get some sales, you and the Igors will get some $ and then further development makes sense for them.

.ai import is important, but you should not hold back your marketing efforts because of that missing feature. These are amazing products even now. People should know about them.

I would suggest contacting user groups to do some demos. Maybe even just After Effects users who are not using a 3d app regularly. With v7 PSD and RPF EIAS is an even better companion to After Effects than it used to be.

More of my 2 cents ;)

Dave

[Vizfizz]

Appreciate it. What's bothersome is at one point the Igors had given me a sales quota to obtain before they would even consider further development. I met the quota. Where's the new development? Missing. Denied. Or in their words: Zero Potential

Now I can keep selling....doing more video tuts and so forth, but if I'm gonna sell another batch of quotas only to be told no again afterwards...what's the point? The Igors won't even agree to that because they don't believe in the product.

Find me someone to get them to believe and I'll keep going.

[Vizfizz]

The thing is the Igors are comparing Paralumino to the success they had back in 2002-2004 with Konkeptoine. (EIU 3 & 4) That was EI's last hurrah so to speak (for plugins) but the climate today is considerably different. I've been doing this one man song and dance for EI for quite sometime now and yet nobody wants to join in. It feels like everyone wants me to do the heavy lifting so they can partake of the spoils.

Realistically...if one were to calculate the amount of money I've put into this effort from a stand point of time...and my "hollywood" rate, the Igors investment of programming time would be minor in comparison. Now through in setting up a business, paying taxes, running a website, paying out royalties (which I gotta get calculated lol) and running my main film business (Persistence of Vision) and I'm just swamped.

Help me here people. Get involved.

[arketype]

It is likely that no single person or intellectual argument can persuade them.
But money talks.... If the products are a success and sell like hotcakes how can they say no?

If they do continue to say no, then at least you can honestly say you did your best.

The products are viable as-is for the foreseeable future- make the most of them.
Go out and sell!

[arketype]

Help me here people. Get involved.

I understand you are very busy Brian,
But Paralumino is your company not ours.
You cannot ask the EIAS community at large to do your job as a publisher and promote the products you have available for sale. It is your job to develop a marketing plan and pursue it.

You need to get creative. With your Hollywood standing, you should be able to get audiences with user groups and at other graphics functions. Go out and show the products.
Get others who specialize in this industry like Scott Novasic to use your products and tout them in his press. Pay him a commission if you can figure out how to calculate his sales.
Buy a book about guerilla marketing...
Do what you have to do as a business owner to make Paralumino a success.

All the "extra" stuff like this forum, etc. that you do for EIAS needs to take a back seat to the health of your company, at least right now.

You have a strong vision of what is possible, and the support of those in the EIAS community... go make the products and your company a success.

[Vizfizz]

I fully realize its my company... and trust me I'm doing what I can to generate marketing and sales. :) When I mean "get involved" it applies not only to Paralumino but also EI.

Your statement does reflect the Igors primary argument. They feel I'm spread too thin with my other primary business. They feel Paralumino is just my hobby. While I don't call it my "hobby" it does play secondary to POV which keeps Paralumino and myself alive. Its much in the same vain as Brad and Digital Connect. If it wasn't for DC, EITG would have probably sunk by now.

Also..when I mean "get involved" I mean for people to take an active interest in the companies that try to keep EI alive too. Dave... you and I are active. You've created HDR Capsule and Lighting Studio.. that is an active effort and its helped in the overall scheme of things to boost EI's lifespan. Paralumino does the same thing. What I don't see much of in the EI community is the sense of unity for the package. Where are the user groups? Where are the websites dedicated to EI? Where are the demo reels? Maybe they just don't exist because of EI's attrition. The point I'm trying to make is I've been making a herculan effort so far and I could use a little help. I'm not trying to leech off other people... Every 3D application out there has huge amounts of visual material and users to sift through... EI does not.

As for this Forum... well right now EI is being exposed to thousands if not millions of people through this forum...and where is Brad? Where is the real EI presence? Scott's new position at Creative Cow will open up a whole new front for EI and it all happened because Scott decided to lend a hand. That's what I'm talking about. We are all ambassadors for this product. I'm just looking for someone to step in and help lend a hand...not run my company.

Energy begets more energy...and I appreciate your contribution.

[arketype]

I completely understand Brian.
Many of us have "day jobs" that keep us alive. And for the most part I think we enjoy them too ;)

I intend to remain involved and help where I can.

I think Scott's interest and his upcoming opportunity at "The Cow" could be a tremendous opportunity. I am sure you are talking to him about the implications ;)

There may not be many user groups dedicated to EI, but there ARE user groups who's members could be introduced to EI and Paralumino. (After effects/ motion users certainly). You and Scott (and Peter Lehrack, too) have the unique credentials to go and talk to these groups about EI and Paralumino, give a way a "door prize", and have software on disk available for everyone to buy right then and there...Bring a few box copies of EIAS with you. I am sure Brad wouldn't mind a few extra seats being sold.....

Maybe you are doing this already and we just don't see it (I know you did a big previz demo last year). Keep it up. Get the word out. Post weekly Paralumino tips and tricks videos showing cool stuff you can do with your products, and post links here, on the Cow, etc. Most people who see your product videos react with astonishment and enthusiasm ;) Just keep spreading the word. I still think the main barrier to success is exposure.

We will all do our part to continue supporting your efforts as best we can :)
Dave

[gdogfunk]

Well, what would it take, financially, to make it happen? I've read reference on a few posts that EITG needs cash to add new features faster, hire programmers, etc. What kind of dollar amount? I have a relative who is in the financial markets and has his own investment firm. A few weeks ago, I actually approached him about finding funding for EITG - just in passing to see what he would say. He responded that it's been awhile since they had a software deal and to let him know more about it. I explained the former industry dominance and the potential to regain that marketshare. I haven't gone back to him yet, because I just didn't know where to begin. With a solid plan on paper, money could be readily accessible.

Ryan

[dwu67]

Yes, there must also be a number of more successful EI users and others out there who might be willing to make a certain amount of financial investment. If we pool our resource $, and at the very least get our $ back plus basic interest after a period 1-2 yrs in exchange for enhanced features, faster development and eventually bigger market share for EI, and maybe even potential profit share from that.

For the very busy working people, sometimes it is easier to invest $ instead of time. Would that be a possibility?

[scottfox]

Im nervous to chime in again, my passion is being mistaken as anger and impatience to some, and I personally am having trouble with that. People who know me understand that I pride myself on being 'passionately logical' (ive said that before)

I dont have a lucrative job, like Brian does, to get me by right now, so my time spent pushing EI is precarious at best. I need to constantly find new clients to pay my rent, and THAT takes marketing and word of mouth. My opportunities to write for DMN (digital media net) websites or the Creative Cow came about through me pushing myself. (ironically, the Cow heard I was writing for DMN and saw my reel, next thing you know they want to pull me away from DMN and be exclusive with them. I had only written ONE review up until that time. That transition has been why theres been a delay in getting my new EI 7 review finished. (I would love to include info about a mograph module for EI in it, but the timing does not seem to be there on this) Selfishly, I am writing for my own exposure first, for people to see my face, my bio and my website/reel for work. Secondarily, is I feel a deep fondness for EI,After Effects and Zaxwerks(my secret modeling weapon) and the 16 year journey I have been on with them. I am very blessed to have done very well over the years with these tools, and I have an opportunity to give back so to speak by defending the app if needed, but more importantly by pushing its strengths to a whole new generation of potential users who have never even heard of it, but are slowly getting brainwashed by Maxon (for mograph) in schools and in advertising.

So, where are we\I going with all this talk. Part of me wants to finance my own programmers to get me what I want in the app. Part of me wants to learn Maya better and move on.

I have offered GREAT exposure for EI at no cost. And CONTINUED regular exposure via tutorials, reviews and even a new forum which would compliment cg talk, given the user base of the Cow, vs CGTALK --Cow= cg artists who tend to be generalists --CG TALK users in most cases appear to be pretty specialized in the 3d and Vis Effects realm. For possible NEW users, the Cow is ideal. Not to mention, the President of the Cow is a big fan of EI. We hit it off talking for 7-8 hours over 3 days about EI and CG. The time is imho right for this. I also have spoken on EI and have been invited to do it again, at
the DMALA monthly meetings. (digital media artists of LA) 2000 members and growing.
I got EI to give away a copy of their app at the meeting. Also, my reel done in EI, I brought 25 of them, flew off the table in less than 30 seconds at break. (about 150 people at that meeting) good for me, yes, good exposure for what EI is capable of? You be the judge.

But, here is where I am now, EI does not seem to care much. Some nice people online appear to some. But no one else has the energy or time to really pledge support to this big opportunity. Brian knows, EI\Brad knows, and no one has commented to me in a meaningful way, how this could help them or partner with me on it to get the word out.

warning! sarcastic comment coming ---- I guess EI's marketing department is doing
a great job on their own.

I asked EI if I could work part time for them evangelizing\marketing.
I may try pushing again on that front. Ron, of the Cow said apple paid him 20k for a banner add on his site! Someone put 2 and 2 together here. I am able to write with integrity, because I BELIEVE in what I am saying. Same with Paraluminos products, great tools missing something obvious. A bridge from ai into trestle. This would make it marketable to virtually everyone on the Cow, as a combination with EI. Ironically I am also going to be a forum leader on the Zaxwerks group on the cow. I think EI might be mentioned a time or 2 there as well. What do you guys, think given the tools I use.

I just got a call while writing this from a guy EITG referred to ME, who uses XSI. He cant
stand a number of complicated things about XSI, was shown my reel, and asked me about EI and a bunch of other questions. He is going to buy EI now. How flippin ironic is that?.....

Dont mind me, Im just the free evangelist : )

Going back to just being a user, is so very tempting given the Igors and EITG. (at this moment anyway)

[arketype]

Scott,
Your enthusiasm and willingness to stick your neck out is exactly what EI needs. ;)
Please keep it up. I think the the discussion on EITG started off great but it didn't take long for some tension to build...

First and foremost take care of your self. Your experience and continued work in the motion graphics field will help EI just by having you associated with it. Your upcoming work on the Cow will be great exposure for EI and that's what it needs desperately, exposure and new users.

Also, please understand that the Igors do come from a different culture but have been with EI through good times and bad. They are currently trying their best to reinvigorate the package with very modern features and have shown support for some pretty far out feature/ infrastructure additions. Sometimes they will even throw in a little freebie or two with out anyone asking (or someone asking nicely). But they are not completely "altruists" as they would say, and EITG is a small company and they do have limited development resources and they have to pick and choose what major features get added. Be assured the Igors are hard at work on a daily basis to make Animator and Camera even stronger.

Your experience and ideas around Motion Graphics features would be very valuable.
I would suggest starting a Motion graphics thread and posting your ideas here to get people interested.
A top 10 list is always a good start.
Maybe top 10 things that EIAS already has to be a great MoGraph app, and a top 10 Mograph feature requests list.
I would not be surprised if the discussion that followed your motion graphics thread reached into the thousands of posts. Specific feature requests with lots of details are the easiest for developers to pick up and run with too ;)

Lastly, from what I have seen, EITG does listen to it's users and I think they may be interested to see a mograph pack become available. Whether that's from Paralumino, Ramjac, Northern Lights, or EITG or even some combination, I don't think it matters, as long as it all works and fills the needs of professionals in the field like you. I think this would really strengthen the platform, and with EI's new PSD and RPF features EI can really integrate with After Effects in new ways for motion graphics.

So go for it. :)

Dave

[hobnoble]

At my small company we have two seats of EIAS. Much like Scott we spend 75% of our time animating logos and broadcast graphics, with the occasional product or facility visualization. Our projects for the most part don't require a strong modeler like Tesla; in fact since EIM's demise we now create about 80% of our basic models in ProModeler, which is entirely sufficient for most of our projects. I must say it would be very nice to be able to bring in logo outlines directly into Animator without having to go through an external modeler.

Frankly, we never really considered trying the Paralumino products because of the verbage, which I believe is one of the disconnects with people doing motion graphics that Scott is alluding to. In our minds we create logos, graphics and animations not geometry. Even though we certainly deal with geometry every time we build a model, the descriptions of the products just sounded very abstract and technical to someone who just needs to take a flat two dimensional logo and bring it to life with a dynamic look and animate it with a few other elements to bring it to life.

I have read this thread with great interest because it seems to directly pertain to what we do, and illustrates the potential that EI has. I know we are not the typical user for the software, but I know there is a potentially large market for a product that can "dumb down" the process of animating logos and basic graphics without having to learn or deal with a complex modeler. I would hope that EI can find a way to continue to evolve back into a world class suite, and also support new ideas to help their partners discover new markets for growth - especially those that may impact my business.

[scottfox]

Hobnoble, thanks for speaking up!! As I see it, given the 'Product roadmap" of Tesla
which is eventually the all inclusive Hi End app (which I will own and use as well)
That leaves EIAS in PERFECT position to become THE motion graphics application of choice.
We can still use Pro Modeler, but with a dedicated and well thought out Mograph module
EI can become a c4d killer (in motion graphics) And thats really its only competition.
C4d is still trying too hard to be Maya, with fur and hair and god knows what else, leaving
EI roughly at $500 a mograph module at $249 totalling $749 vs C4d $900 + mograph $400 +dynamics $500 and + NET render (for unlimited render nodes EI has for free) $500 and were at $2300 so more than 3 times as expensive, and do I need to mention Cameras speed for animation and its obviously superior CAMERA quality and to ME, its a no brainer. Just need to get the word out to the right people, NOT to your typical hi end 3d snob.

Please join in as often as you can, your the kind of user I STRONGLY believe we need to target, the ease of use issue is so very true, even in the naming of things.

All I can say now is that WE (you can guess who) are meeting with and talking to all the right people and we'll see where it goes. The possibilities are prety exciting, but we need to here from more people like you.

DAVE, thanks for the post, believe it or not, I am pretty relaxed through all of this, I just need to work on my online 'person' I do not want the label of angry when I feel blessed in my life. I dont mind edgy though :)

I would like to help EI as much as possible, I just cant spend the amount of free time I will need to spend to do it right without some form of compensation however small it may be. (this has nothing to do with my EI 7 review I am releasing very soon) I am on my own now and I (like other self employed) have to pay the rent. I would love to offer as much time as the very generous Brian Pohl, but, well --- we'll see what happens, I have some very cheap options I may propose to Brad that could be a win win when it comes to the massive amount of people I can expose EI too. Whats the harm, Im gonna continue to love and use EI daily in my workflow and speak well of it when it deserves it of course.

Tune in later

[Vizfizz]

Hobnoble,

Thanks for your comments. I am starting design on a new website. I will take your suggestions into strong consideration. I want to make Paralumino products accessible to as many people as possible. Hopefully it will have some kind of impact on the programmers to continue forward. Its the only thing I can do.

I am pitching the Sparks concept to Brad on Friday so perhaps we'll see something come out of that.

In the meanwhile I'd like to ask folks that are on the LinkedIN network to send me an invitation so I can connect you to my network. I am going to start using Linkedin to assist with potential sales.

Thanks again.

[plsyvjeucxfw]

Hey Brian,

I'm sure you've done this, but I'll mention it anyway. You might want to surf over to the Zaxwerks site and see what kind of Tone and Verbage he's using. Also color and overall themes. He is emphasizing that his products make the work "Easy", "Quick", with "Fantastic Results." He's got a few short tutorials (not hidden on the shopping cart page) that show some of the workflow. Your enhanced videos may be all right for customers, but quick, short pieces, to showcase the product's value, may work better for nibblers.

Zax however, seems to have given up on supporting EI directly. I guess he found a more lucrative nitch with After Effects users. Still, I think any enhancement of EI's Mograph capability would be ideal.

Hopefully v8 will address easier key frame scaling, offer shuttle controls, allow easy ease-in and outs, etc. These are not CA related enhancements, they are Animation enhancements, and are needed for workflow improvements.

Don't despair. EIAS is a marvelous product. I've been struggling through an Introductory Maya class, and I'm not impressed. It's complexity leads to requiring a college degree to use it, along with several internal quirks and inconsistencies, as well as buggy behavior.

Thank goodness for EI, the solid work horse with the magnificent renders. All we need is to improve a few weak areas, and spread the word. I've been showing some of my pieces to other students and showing them the EI web site. EI's uncluttered interface attracted their attention almost as much as the final renders. I've e-mailed Brad and Phil about this, and hopefully EI's work flow will be used as a selling point in the future.

[Vizfizz]

Hey Kurt.

I totally agree with you. Maya is not a broadcast design package by any means. Its an entirely different beast, designed from the ground up to be integrated in film vfx pipelines. EI is a far superior product for fast, efficient broadcast design work and hard surface animation, while Maya is more akin to character work and organics.

I'm listening to all this advice and I am acting on it. My only hope is its enough to motivate the developers for v2. Right now I'm not that hopeful...but I'll keep my resolve.

[ediris]

Brian you must know this in advanced , every thing is invented just look at your competitors what strategies do they use , what type of marketing, what kind of layout their websites has,how easy is to navigate them. Evrything is out there you dont have to be original just follow the same recepie. By the way those videos i have seen them all i have downloaded them twice. ;)
Adios amigo.

[jimjam]

Just a note.

It might be worth keeping in mind that Tesla could alter the situation in some way.

JimM

[Vizfizz]

Yes..that is true... but it still doesn't address the integration issues I've pointed out. Unless Kish is writing a direct bridge from Tesla to Animator we'll need something...and as far as I know, no bridge has been built yet. Not to mention it wont address the animation issues that Sparks could provide.

Plus...we're still not sure what Tesla's pricing structure is finally going to be like. There is Spatial licensing fees and programmer expenses...the base price of Tesla may force a higher price point than expected. It would be nice to get Sparks positioned affordably below Tesla.

[estudiodesign]

Meanwhile (after following this thread and stunning the last few days) I wonder how it could happen that
I missed to have a closer look at those paraluminos plugs (trestle, scrim, swage) earlier.
Ok...I was on the website but somehow I failed to see their potential....maybe this was due to my own inattention.
Especially the very most important fact, that this geometry, being built directly in Animator, is ANIMATABLE,
seems to be stressed to less...I know it is noted there, but I personaly didn`t get it at first sight.

But now after watching (the very well hidden ;-) videos I get a better idea what the plugs are about.
And that`s so amazing !!!
It`s totaly obvious why you are so excited concerning having this tools more expanded and
even combined with AI-import (!!!)
This would make work so much easier and could open a myriad of possibilities.
I hope it will happen this or that way.
Great work...Please don`t give up Brian (and Igors) !

One more thing:
I guess I`m not the only one who would appreciate to have a kind of master-bundle.
I mean how likely is it that a designer (especially one experienced in modeling) can live
with only one of this tools. And I don´t know if it is clever from a psychological view to force users to buy
seperate tools for several single modeling tasks.
From a 3D-modelers view operations like extracting, revolving, lofting etc. are so basic operations that
just combining them makes modeling effectively and less limitated.
(Well, I don`t want to stress this AI argument further here...)
So in my opinion it would make most sense to have it as a complete toolset somehow.
But I guess there are good arguments for having that toolset modular too.

Well, knowing now what I`ve read and learned in this thread the last days, I guess the only reason why I don`t run and buy this plugs right away, is because of the fact, that I don`t know what exactly will happen now...
On the one hand it`s fine to know some new and amazing tools with so much potential and on the other hand I fear to end up having bought several parts of a horse going to be slaughtered or left alone by it´s own programers...;-)

But let`s just think positive...

Cheers
Tom

[dieGolum]

But now after watching (the very well hidden ;-) videos I get a better idea what the plugs are about.
And that`s so amazing !!!

But let`s just think positive...

Cheers
Tom

Please where are these videos?

Diego

[estudiodesign]

Hej Diego,

go on www.paralumino.com.
Under Plugins (left corner, above) click on "Trestle" (for example)
You`ll get a product description...under that there`s a button called "Browse shop".
Again choose "Trestle".
Then on the right side of that product description there is a link called "Trestle PVT"

Cheers
Tom

[DickM]

Brian, Your plugs look great after watching the movies. You should have these movies on the plug ins pages themselves. Next to the gallery button or something. Very hard to find in that little link off to the right on the shop page.

Stick around please. All your hard work is very much appreciated!! :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Vizfizz]

Yes.. the new web design will have them clearly in site. In the meanwhile, all the video links are also in this thread. I'm going to create a new video that talks all about how these plugins can help your workflow.

Originally the plugins were created as just "Geometry" building plugins...but once I started seeing the greater motion potential I knew we had something greater. So yes...more emphasis will be placed on that potential.

Thank you everyone for you feedback.

[Vizfizz]

Tom..

I have no intent on having these plugins reach the "glue" factory. ;) They will be re-marketed to show their greater potential and they will not conflict with the advent of Tesla.

[ediris]

Hi Brian

Have you study the option to bundle it with the application.that way all the parts get beneficials.
Some tips that might help is to :
Starting with a killer intro of the Paralumino logo, that is what the product is selling.
Resize the images say 50 percent
On top the main text of the product line.Plugins,Shaders,Freebies,etc
At the center of the page the icons of each product. instead of having the info of each product on a separate page have them in the same home page with a read more option or a pop up animated that describes the product.
at the bottom of the page some of greates stills of the gallery and some movie clip.
Most important is to show how easy is integrated with EIAS. that is one of the most important aspects imop of the paralumino home site.

Have some costumer experiences with the product. Maybe some interviews with current users.

Get some motion going,instead of placing movie clips get some stills along with rollovers
that will show the info of everyproduct.

Second but not last have the option to get EIAS and Paralumino in one complete package or the Paralumino in one complete package called however you want to call it sparks or animatron .

[bbuxton]

I would like to chime in at this late stage in the thread.....

The 'Sparks' suite is something I have watched for a long time. I've not bought into it quite yet because of it's lack of '.ai' import. Personally I have no interest in importing illustrator files into animator directly but I am very interested in a set of plugins such as this making use of '.ai' files (from within the plugin! - the project window gets busy enough without loads of profiles, text outlines etc).

I also prefer the idea of these plugins to the Zaxwerks offerings. However...could Zaxwerks be consulted or hired to implement the '.ai' import functions within the 'sparks suite' ? Has anybody asked?

The lack of this feature is the only deal breaker for the suite. I'm sure that like myself there are many users (and potential new users) out there that would buy this suite in a snap. Guarantee this feature and I will pre-order today!


BB

[Vizfizz]

Last time I talked to Zaxwekrs, they pretty much stated that they would only support EI through ProModeler. No more internal plugins. Invigorator and Vector Lathe were discontinued do to "lack of interest". But that was about a year ago.. I can't imagine that improving much since then.

[bbuxton]

That's a pity.

I like the way ProAnimator works but the rendering is horrible, also I hate using cycled objects. Not that I often need motion-graphics tools.

I already have/use a lot of modeling tools but like I said '.ai' import from the plugin would be very compelling just for the convenience.

Perhaps it would help to cite a few advantages over applications like FormZ, SharkFX (ViaCad) or Modo.

Thanks

BB

[dieGolum]

Hola,

I've been watching the Paralumino's video product tour and I have seen that are fantastic tools for Motion Graphic.

Just need more videos in order to understand how they work and the possibilities they have.

Thank you very much to the programers and designers tool.

Cheers
Diego

[estudiodesign]

Hej Brian,

thanks for your answer...I just didn`t get what you mean by:
"I have no intent on having these plugins reach the "glue" factory"
Just a linguistic/translation problem for me...can you please clearify ?

Thanks ;-)

Tom

[bbuxton]

The 'Glue factory' is where you send old horses when they have outlived their usefulness.
Basically their bones/remains are boiled down to make glue. Horrible really :cry:

BB

[estudiodesign]

Thank you,

yes...horrible indeed...but in this special case very good news :beer:

Tom

[scottfox]

Brian gave me a personal tutorial of the current Paralumino Plug-ins this afternoon. (jealous :)

I have to say, WOW. I was not aware of a lot of things these tools can do. Whats really nice about them to me, is that he showed me some basic things first, that I could get some use from. Then pretty quickly combined them with Mrs Bebel (a must have with his tools as far as I am concerned) and a combination of swage and scrim and shuffled them around and
I got lost pretty quick. Thats a GOOD thing though. What it made me think is that these were 'deep' enough to keep me busy experimenting as I got better and better with them.

I gave him my best constructive criticism as to what I wished it could do etc, but there was not much I felt was needed.

The obvious was ai import. another thing I wanted to see if I cant have ai import was at least a jpeg import so I could trace logos or designs. (not ideal, but worth it for what the plugs can do) unfortunately and surprising to me is that the plug in architecture does not allow for this!? So the third thing would be to write a plug in for illustrator that exports the lines in a way trestle can import. The last thing I wished to see was, like invigerator,
an ability to take the shape you have created and 'split' it into 3-6 groups which then allow for easy texturing. Especially good for mograph work.

The fact that Brian was wiling to show me in person says a lot for his comittment to these plug ins.

I just hope we can convince Brad \ Igors that the simple (in theory) task of programming ai support into trestle would open these plug ins AND EIAS to a HUGE new market of designer\animators. motion graphics pros.
I believe the key is to argue why doing this IS NOT redundant with the ai import into Tesla.

Brian B, I agree with you, you said it better than I did, and Ive been spending way to many hours on this thread! :)

[Vizfizz]

And now surprisingly, the Igors started another thread on the EI forum about this very subject.. :) Round 3 anyone?

http://www.eitechnologygroup.com/forums/viewthread/570/

[bbuxton]

I think everything needed has been said here - 11 pages. :banghead:

I don't think it is possible (or realistic) for users to request or campaign for sorely needed features. Perhaps that is why I use far too many applications - particularly for 3D.

BB

[Vizfizz]

True.. it has been said here...sans the Igors presence that is. If we can't get through to them it will only mean more frustration...even within the core application itself. A better way of working between developer and customer is required. I just wish we could figure out what that was. :)

[bbuxton]

The hardest thing to accept is that the application (EIAS) is not the centre of things, the work is.

If one tool doesn't to a job well or makes it laborious and uneconomical to do, then another must be used. If the Igors don't get this and it's direct consequence on the EIAS user base, then you must look elsewhere.

Perhaps it is not possible to have '.ai' import within Trestle. It maybe adequate to implement '.ai' import into something simpler such as wiremaker. This may widen the scope in terms of who you get to do it.

Beyond that, look forward to a world where all 3D motion graphics looks like it has been rendered in Cinema 4D. :cry:

BB

[Martin Kay]

I have to admit that I've been aware of these plug-ins for a long time — I could be accused even of buying plug-ins flippantly just to play with them as toys — and yet I never bought these ones because I didn't (and still don't) quite get what I'd use them for. I'm not sure what it is that's not clear about their purpose other than in general I just don't quite get it. Where would I use them? Maybe I just haven't poked around the web site enough.

One thing I can tell you is that I have an adverse reaction to abstract names and weird GUIs. Scrim, for example. The hell does that mean? It may well have some deep meaning in motion graphics or CG Land, but to me it's like when cop looks at me and whispers "5150" into his radio. Actually, I know exactly what "5150" means since I hear it every weekend, but. . .

But my point being that it would be easier to sell these things if the trade-specific terminology were toned down. I've been using EI for years, but I still have to stop and think when somebody says "torus" or "null."

For example: . . .designed to scan its child entities and loft a surface between its children. My brain shuts down when faced with such abstraction. First, I have no children, and the only entities I ever see are when I've been on a bender and wake up in the cemetery. Eventually I do manage to crawl back to my loft, but . . . there are no children there. . . .

Interesting thread... I have to agree with you MarsViolet. As a c4d user I'm probably just too stupid, or perhaps the real reason is that I just don't have time or patience to struggle to understand what it is a plug in does let alone how the deuce it integrates with EI...
You expressed surprise sometime ago Brian, at my reluctance to get involved with trying your plug-ins. Frankly they were gobbldegook to me- but I'm only familiar with EI in very basic terms.
The problem with you guys trying to 'sell' all this stuff is that you are too much on top of it all- you don't see it from the point of view of the average punter- like myself.

Martin K

[ediris]

Beyond that, look forward to a world where all 3D motion graphics looks like it has been rendered in Cinema 4D. :cry:

BB

:) You killing me man. Is true BB i cant stop laughing everytime i read these post. Well it looks like the order came from above.
I sense a lot of anger torwards talking to the public like we dont appreciate what they have done. We are a small comunitiy so i appreciate Brian getting the voice out for Paralumino product line.
Thanks Brian.

Edgard

[Martin Kay]

I also have to agree on using cool sounding names which mean very little - I still get confused on which pluggin does what. I know other software has had users which had negative response to creative names which also meant very little.

Tell me what 'Banji' does!:-)

Mindlessly simple, easy to understand always works best for me.

Yes the sla procedural shaders had the most stupid set of names ever and they still mean nothing to me to this day.

[Vizfizz]

Martin,

Then its users like you that I must refocus to reach. The plugins are quite easy to use, but perhaps its true that I need "new eyes" to help me see. That's why I am talking to all of you. All of you are my "new eyes"...

[Martin Kay]

Yes I suppose I could... if I want to start completely over from scratch. Quite frankly, that's taking too many steps backwards and I have far too many other things I could be spending my time on. I'm doing this purely out of loving concern for this application. But I'll play the martyr now and say, "Maybe its just not worth it.". That's not to illicit sympathy, but rather to just simply say maybe its time for me to just go back to being a simple EI user. If the Igors want to carry the banner as to what's "right" for EI maybe I should just let them. They could be right as far as I know...but I just think its unfair of them to dictate the way they do.

Perhaps EI will come in and arbitrate. It would be worth their while...yet at the same time, I'm sure they don't want to piss off their primary coders. I just wonder if EITG can see how such narrow vision is negatively affecting their company.

I feel reluctant to point out the blindingly obvious Brian, but patently you are flogging a dead dog. Those people with positions of power and influence quite naturally have their own personal private agendas and will ever continue to confound their 'underlings' with the sometimes seemingly 'odd, illogical and nonsensical' decisions they continue to make. Its all about agendas.
I worked for about thirty years in the 'exibition' industry- myself and a few colleagues thought the boss's agenda was to build the best set of professional quality, well equipted and up to date cpmprehensive services in the locality- but actually it wasn't... The agenda was purely to make money, actually 'x' amount of money- a fixed target. The consequences were that although the business was nationally renown for its level of competence, ultimately it failed through lack of directorial interest and investment.

Martin K

[Vizfizz]

Martin,

I refuse to believe that EIAS or the Paralumino product line is dead. If its not possible for the users of an application to unite to bring about the type of tools they desire in an application, then what hope does EI have? What type of hope does any user of any application have for that matter. Yes, money is to be made...but money cannot be made by ignoring the customer nor should it be the only factor.

As I've mentioned before, the client to customer relationship does not end at the point of purchase....it begins there. Agendas or not, if this basic truism is not followed, then no agenda in the world will be able to save that company. I refuse to believe that EITG is that blind. Nor is it their desire to just merely survive. If they are that blind or have no concern for the user, then yes, it will be time for me to say my goodbyes but I haven't seen that yet.

As for the Igors, well, until all resources and appeals have been exhausted, I will continue to appeal. I genuinely sense they are confused about this situation because it conflicts with their perceived understanding of the market and their russian sensibilities about efficiency and redundancy. They also don't want to waste their time. But where I have failed to get the message out, they've failed to supply a complete tool set. None of that is impossible to correct, but it does take a certain level of commitment to try again. Rome wasn't built in a day so to speak.

[PaulS2]

I've followed along on this thread as it is a good indication of how things will be for EI into the future...I think anyway.

Yes, common sense and business sense and all of the 'reasons'...they are endless but put all of the reasons aside. Where is the pride in creating the very best tool possible? Where is the excitement seeing users working with tools one has developed? Has life in 3D become strictly practical and free of risk?

Which of us haven't gone way past what was expected to get the best possible result...and then do it over and then over again. I sure am not the only one who has that work ethic around here.....it would be wonderful to see developers always share in that same work ethic. That same pride..that same willingness to create the very best possible. It certainly happens but this last round seems to be a little off.

Yeah, it's tough...tough way to make a buck. But, if that's the only reason it is done now then time to move onto something a little more fun.

Brian, this isn't directed at you.

[Vizfizz]

Paul...

I have far more confidence in Brad bringing around change in EI than his father did. His willingness to ensure v8 and Tesla are strong indications that there is a desire to see this product continue. Not to mention that Brad seems to have some strong personal motivations to see EI succeed. Money will always be a factor, but I don't see it as EI's only motivation. I still get the impression that they care for their user base. I think their developers are concerned too, but as we can see, there is a certain level of resistance. It shouldn't be this difficult.

EI's history has always been one of turmoil and it has a hard time shaking the "victim" mentality it aquirred after the big ILM breakup and Play snafu. They need someone to provide new vision for the program and to put the "fun" back into using the application. That person may not be Brad. I'm doing what I can to provide some of that vision from the users' perspective. Heck, I'd even do it for the company at large, but right now the thought of moving to San Antonio doesn't quite mesh with my immediate plans to produce, direct and animate films. I guess on some level, I'm trying to influence EITG to incorporate certain capabilities and technologies cause I would love to use EIAS on feature films again. (Namely mine) But in order to do that, certain features are required. (No my films aren't dependant on Paralumino plugins, but if Paralumino can help bring health to EI, then a greater good is achieved.)

[PaulS2]

I hear you.

Mutual respect between user and developer....and you are right, it shouldn't be that hard.

[Martin Kay]

Martin,

I refuse to believe that EIAS or the Paralumino product line is dead. If its not possible for the users of an application to unite to bring about the type of tools they desire in an application, then what hope does EI have? What type of hope does any user of any application have for that matter. Yes, money is to be made...but money cannot be made by ignoring the customer nor should it be the only factor.

As I've mentioned before, the client to customer relationship does not end at the point of purchase....it begins there. Agendas or not, if this basic truism is not followed, then no agenda in the world will be able to save that company. I refuse to believe that EITG is that blind. Nor is it their desire to just merely survive. If they are that blind or have no concern for the user, then yes, it will be time for me to say my goodbyes but I haven't seen that yet.

As for the Igors, well, until all resources and appeals have been exhausted, I will continue to appeal. I genuinely sense they are confused about this situation because it conflicts with their perceived understanding of the market and their russian sensibilities about efficiency and redundancy. They also don't want to waste their time. But where I have failed to get the message out, they've failed to supply a complete tool set. None of that is impossible to correct, but it does take a certain level of commitment to try again. Rome wasn't built in a day so to speak.

I agree with all you say, but, obviously EI have to make money to survive and currently the company probably is in a desperate situation of not knowing what to do next for the best, eg getting more bums on seats. Possibly they have decided on what to do next, but it may not be what's going to save them. There's some debate on what features EI needs next and I don't see any concensus of opinion on this.

As an exercise, image you are constructing a new 3D program- what features do you need and in what order do you develop them? What are the very fundamental requirements and what features will appeal to most users?



Martin K

[Martin Kay]

Martin,

Then its users like you that I must refocus to reach. The plugins are quite easy to use, but perhaps its true that I need "new eyes" to help me see. That's why I am talking to all of you. All of you are my "new eyes"...

Brian, I'm sure your plug-ins are potentialy great, although lacking the ability to use imported vectors. Personally I prefer to see all modelling in one application, even if that means three applications...or maybe four applications... I realise animators have different requirements inside Animator.

My main problem is in a few areas lacking in EI Animator itself- lack of a working texturing system, no useful visual feedback. There are probably many other basic things required but I can't think of them now as I haven't used EI for some time now.

I don't see how EITG can, in the short term, compete with the likes of Modo, so perhaps EI should appease it's current user base, which I see as animators like Scott (who has a fantastic show reel). This necessarily means losing people who want to produce just stills work as there are more attractive more rounded and well thought out alternatives than EI for that stuff.
I would suspect that Animator wants scrapping and rewriting from the ground up as I can't see, from what I've heard that many of the requirements are easily done. That leaves Tesla which in my opinion needs to be useable by any 3D person, not just EI users alone as obviously again it narrows the user base and restricts income.
I don't see me using EI again- there are better, more practical alternatives for what I occasionally do.
Would I buy Tesla? I probably don't need it, but it won't cost much, so I might if it fits in with everthing else I use.

Incidently, in my view, cost has almost nothing to do with purchasing decisions- ie EI is cheap so come on down and get it.... I think c4d has got very expensive and I have baulked at upgrading to the latest Vs number. Modo is certainly very cheap, but I'm still not sure enough about it to stop me paying to go the c4d Vray direction.

(Modo occasionaly goes haywire and needs restarting, which I find disconcerting having been used to the reliability of c4d. I too don't feel that comfortable with the materials system- again probably unfamiliarity)

Martin K

[scottfox]

••••I don't see how EITG can, in the short term, compete with the likes of Modo, so perhaps EI should appease it's current user base, which I see as animators like Scott (who has a fantastic show reel). This necessarily means losing people who want to produce just stills work as there are more attractive more rounded and well thought out alternatives than EI for that stuff.••••

Hi Martin, thanks for the kind words about my reel. The way I look at EI related to this thread is this.
The current users, are users because the software works for them as is. With v7, it just cements that even more. So adding some more specific tools, via plug in, that are mograph friendly wont effect or hurt a single current happy user. What I feel it WILL do,
is attract more users from the "new to 3d" crowd. (with marketing and exposure) Its closest competitor in this realm is C4d. EI, is infinately easier to use than cinema. Cinema cant help it, they have pushed and pushed to be invited into the Maya Max XSI clubhouse that their interface, while logical to its fans, is still very Complicated to the "new to 3d" crowd.
So, your comment about "more attractive more rounded out alternatives" kind of misses
the audience. And the point of this long thread. YES yes yes, C4d is more well rounded than EI. But that plays INTO our point here.

To use an analogy, ------ would you rather buy a computer, pc or mac, that has a ton of technology in it to START WITH, technology you dont currently need or use, AND costs a ton of money. --------- OR ------- would you rather spec that computer to have everything you need to do a great job NOW. At a much lower price point. Less complicated to learn, every bit powerful enough to do what you need very well RIGHT NOW, and heres the cherry on top, PLUS you can ADD those technologies you did not buy right away, at YOUR OWN PACE and comfort level as time goes by.

Thats your cinema vs ei right there. Cinema has everything, whether i need it or not, want it or not. They cleverly market modules, but just to EQUAL EI with Paralumino you need the Dynamics, Net Render unlimited, Advanced renderer, and the mograph module. we quickly get to 4 times as expensive as EI. New users are going to need and want all of those. EI includes them in an easy to use way. Not to mention, Camera blows away cinemas renderer, and beats cinemas "advanced" renderer.

Is EI perfect? no... I agree with your texture comments, its weird, but I still get by quickly doing what I need even with that annoying aspect of things. Remember, Im\were talking MAINLY about Mograph and Broadcast design professionals here on this thread. And the need for simple ai import into trestle. To be honest with you, in many ways EI's
biggest competitor for this market is Invigerator Pro Animator. Those users crave an easy to use tool (like invigerator). But once they "master" invigerator they quickly see its real obvious weaknesses. Rendering Animation, speed etc etc. Also, this is an industry where individual animators dominate the market vs 'a pipeline of artists' that share projects and therefore all need the same tools. (like some of the hi end companies here in La La land) What I mean there is, these people dropped $395-$595 for one of the invigerator products. EI and Paralumino combined is roughly $795. A number that is MUCH easier for an individual to begin with, than $2500-$3000 something. Again, Cinema is a more ROUNDED app as you put it. But think like a designer, not a mid to hi end 3d animator. Their needs are different. Most individuals and individuals working for small companies can slide $795 into their budgets a LOT easier than 2-3K Plus training videos and DVDs. Ei has those for FREE. And Like I said before, if those people then grow into 3d and become more and more of a mid to hi end user, Tesla will have been out for a while and can be added to their capabilities. NOT FORCED on them from the beginning.

Another advantage as you can see by my new logo, modeled in Rhino, they can choose whatever modeler they prefer. This is about selling more seats of EI, and the market easiest to appeal to with what they have right now, is Broadcast designers and 2d motionagraphers looking to integrate 3d at their own pace. Learning curve is what helped Zax succeed, and EI wins on that level based simply on the fact it DOES NOT have all those added \ rounded features of a cinema or maya. No real character animation clutter, or 3d modeler clutter. Now, if they want that hi end 3d modeler they have a choice, something the other packages dont offer as well as EI can.

Im tired again, when is EI gonna put me (or BRIAN) on the payroll :) :) :) What little it may be, ha ha ha.......

[ediris]

I like to add that is the artist what matters here not the software. Either package EI,C4D whatever sotware you mentioned i could bring Blender to the table (which i have seen some excellent work lately).
EIAS might not be their cup of tea for guys like Martin.K , or Paul.S that has tons of tools and he chosses Rhino for modeling your logo Scott over other modeler for whatever reason it might be , but he is got the talent.

As you Scott are talented in the mograph department. But EI is defenetly not for everyone and is not as easy to learn as you mentioned. Every software takes a time to get used to it.

Sure Camera is far superior than Cinema render, or Maya w/out MentalRay or even with Mental ray but is the artist and her or his skills that will make them stand from the crowd.

i am just saying stop focusing on feautures needed i am sure evryone has find how to live without .ai import into trestle. If it cant be done now than we will have to wait until is available, just like EIM, we waited so long for these piece to come out and what happened, it didnt change anything. Now the developers are waiting for Tesla...same history .

Your skills as an artist are gonna always be there. The software is like having to draw with a marker or a pencil some people like to draw with a pen some people like to draw with charcoal.

Back to the drawing table.

[Martin Kay]

••••I don't see how EITG can, in the short term, compete with the likes of Modo, so perhaps EI should appease it's current user base, which I see as animators like Scott (who has a fantastic show reel). This necessarily means losing people who want to produce just stills work as there are more attractive more rounded and well thought out alternatives than EI for that stuff.••••

Hi Martin, thanks for the kind words about my reel. The way I look at EI related to this thread is this.
The current users, are users because the software works for them as is. With v7, it just cements that even more. So adding some more specific tools, via plug in, that are mograph friendly wont effect or hurt a single current happy user. What I feel it WILL do,
is attract more users from the "new to 3d" crowd. (with marketing and exposure) Its closest competitor in this realm is C4d. EI, is infinately easier to use than cinema. Cinema cant help it, they have pushed and pushed to be invited into the Maya Max XSI clubhouse that their interface, while logical to its fans, is still very Complicated to the "new to 3d" crowd.
So, your comment about "more attractive more rounded out alternatives" kind of misses
the audience. And the point of this long thread. YES yes yes, C4d is more well rounded than EI. But that plays INTO our point here.

To use an analogy, ------ would you rather buy a computer, pc or mac, that has a ton of technology in it to START WITH, technology you dont currently need or use, AND costs a ton of money. --------- OR ------- would you rather spec that computer to have everything you need to do a great job NOW. At a much lower price point. Less complicated to learn, every bit powerful enough to do what you need very well RIGHT NOW, and heres the cherry on top, PLUS you can ADD those technologies you did not buy right away, at YOUR OWN PACE and comfort level as time goes by.

Thats your cinema vs ei right there. Cinema has everything, whether i need it or not, want it or not. They cleverly market modules, but just to EQUAL EI with Paralumino you need the Dynamics, Net Render unlimited, Advanced renderer, and the mograph module. we quickly get to 4 times as expensive as EI. New users are going to need and want all of those. EI includes them in an easy to use way. Not to mention, Camera blows away cinemas renderer, and beats cinemas "advanced" renderer.

Is EI perfect? no... I agree with your texture comments, its weird, but I still get by quickly doing what I need even with that annoying aspect of things. Remember, Im\were talking MAINLY about Mograph and Broadcast design professionals here on this thread. And the need for simple ai import into trestle. To be honest with you, in many ways EI's
biggest competitor for this market is Invigerator Pro Animator. Those users crave an easy to use tool (like invigerator). But once they "master" invigerator they quickly see its real obvious weaknesses. Rendering Animation, speed etc etc. Also, this is an industry where individual animators dominate the market vs 'a pipeline of artists' that share projects and therefore all need the same tools. (like some of the hi end companies here in La La land) What I mean there is, these people dropped $395-$595 for one of the invigerator products. EI and Paralumino combined is roughly $795. A number that is MUCH easier for an individual to begin with, than $2500-$3000 something. Again, Cinema is a more ROUNDED app as you put it. But think like a designer, not a mid to hi end 3d animator. Their needs are different. Most individuals and individuals working for small companies can slide $795 into their budgets a LOT easier than 2-3K Plus training videos and DVDs. Ei has those for FREE. And Like I said before, if those people then grow into 3d and become more and more of a mid to hi end user, Tesla will have been out for a while and can be added to their capabilities. NOT FORCED on them from the beginning.

Another advantage as you can see by my new logo, modeled in Rhino, they can choose whatever modeler they prefer. This is about selling more seats of EI, and the market easiest to appeal to with what they have right now, is Broadcast designers and 2d motionagraphers looking to integrate 3d at their own pace. Learning curve is what helped Zax succeed, and EI wins on that level based simply on the fact it DOES NOT have all those added \ rounded features of a cinema or maya. No real character animation clutter, or 3d modeler clutter. Now, if they want that hi end 3d modeler they have a choice, something the other packages dont offer as well as EI can.

Im tired again, when is EI gonna put me (or BRIAN) on the payroll :) :) :) What little it may be, ha ha ha.......

Hi Scott, I don't know what kind of 'new to 3D' users are going to choose EI- they're more likely to go with one of the many new and more popular packages like Carrara, Modo or Strata which is popular with designers. More likely EI would more easily get older users to come back to the app.

Mostly I'd say c4d is easier to use than EI, but c4d has its own oddities- it's what you get used to- all software has its quirks, especially Modo. It's true that c4d has a lot of stuff you may never need to use for basic stills production, but more important it has what you need- the basics, which EI doesn't. I want at least to be able to select and save a set of polys that I can designate a texture to- EITG should spend some time on that feature and make it work. It's like having a flash car with no engine- you can't get far.

So, EI will remain a specialist product for animators, but not appealing to the mass market, new to 3D folk, or those that have wandered off looking for necessary solutions elsewhere.

Martin K

[Vizfizz]

Hi Martin,

Well I guess all we can do is take a wait and see attitude. :) There are a couple of things going on that may change your mind in due time.

[Reuben5150]

So, EI will remain a specialist product for animators, but not appealing to the mass market, new to 3D folk, or those that have wandered off looking for necessary solutions elsewhere.

Martin K

Oh i dunno...

I my case i found EI to be one of the easiest apps to get along with, once the basics were learned... i could have gone with c4d or LW, at the time EI was at v4, and got a great deal on it.

I don't do lots of commercial work, i have a client list about as small as it gets, but slowly working up to something that might become fulltime... and even then i would have no intentions on "switching apps", there's still life in the old dog yet !

Its true "as ever" that some workarounds are needed, sometimes, in order to get the job done, its whether people can be bothered anymore i suppose, once it was worth the trouble just for the renderer, now there are so many other apps out there which are "feature rich" and plastered all over the net, advertising !!!

Once Tesla hits the scene, EIAS as a package will be much more "rounded" i think, and will appeal to a wided crowd than just its current users.

Btw, i think Modo,c4d, and Xsi are all overrated but marketed very well, thats where EI should focus a bit.

just IMHO

Reuben

[ediris]

Oh i dunno...

I my case i found EI to be one of the easiest apps to get along with, once the basics were learned... i could have gone with c4d or LW, at the time EI was at v4, and got a great deal on it.

Reuben

Very true Reuben once the basics were learned , how long i have being with EI compared to the many apps i have learned in a few months. Up to now i cant do an import without losing any data i have to bring OBJ2FACT to do an import with UV intacts.
So you see , is not as cheasp as evryone says. And just jumping from plugin to plugins i dont think is gonna attract to anyone. Will Tesla change he Panorama there is now, i dont think so. Will i be using EI anymore? yes. Lets just hope for the best of the versions to come and all the ¨Hidden Plugin ¨ technology Brian mentioned.

I will say that Animator should be sold bundled with some shaders ,a particle engine and Paralumino Plugins when that happened it will sale like french fries.

[Martin Kay]

Hi Martin,

Well I guess all we can do is take a wait and see attitude. :) There are a couple of things going on that may change your mind in due time.

I really hope so. I'm looking forward to seeing the new modeller.

Martin K

[Martin Kay]

Oh i dunno...

I my case i found EI to be one of the easiest apps to get along with, once the basics were learned... i could have gone with c4d or LW, at the time EI was at v4, and got a great deal on it.

I don't do lots of commercial work, i have a client list about as small as it gets, but slowly working up to something that might become fulltime... and even then i would have no intentions on "switching apps", there's still life in the old dog yet !

Its true "as ever" that some workarounds are needed, sometimes, in order to get the job done, its whether people can be bothered anymore i suppose, once it was worth the trouble just for the renderer, now there are so many other apps out there which are "feature rich" and plastered all over the net, advertising !!!

Once Tesla hits the scene, EIAS as a package will be much more "rounded" i think, and will appeal to a wided crowd than just its current users.

Btw, i think Modo,c4d, and Xsi are all overrated but marketed very well, thats where EI should focus a bit.

just IMHO

Reuben

Hmmm, I don't think Modo is that overrated... it renders quickly, has great sds modeller and has good GI. It's problem is stability for some, but I'm still finding my way with it. Not totally sure of my direction at the moment. I'd like to use EI, but c4d is much more practical despite the odd shortfalls in image quality. Re marketing- I don't think EI has a product worth marketing currently- I mean its only part finished. It would probably do more harm than good- better they get their act together a bit first.
Another thing I'd like to see in EI is a bit of feedback during rendering- stills that is.

Martin K

[Reuben5150]

I think part a big of the problem is that EI has no modeler, it was possibly underestimated how important this is when they dropped the spatial license.

Hopfully Tesla will have a major impact on how EIAS is viewed as a package.

i can only comment on modo's SDS, it was the GUI i had a problem with, been a long time since i looked at the app.

Reuben

[PaulS2]

If Tesla comes out with very robust Solids, Surfaces and SubDs all in one package it will be unique amoungst modelers. It was way before it's time when it came out - too bad it was very complex to use. Could have taken over the world.

It has a chance to do it right and come out with a big splash! If it is done right and everything works well and doesn't require a lot of handholding it might bring a little needed attention back to EI.

[juanxer]

After re-reading the documentation at Paralumino about the plugins commented here, and thinking about the Igors' take, my question is: could a basic animated Bezier primitive be grafted into Animator in some way? Not a Bezier ÜberShape ("BezierShape"?) socket but an Animator-native real non-modal fully in-main-windows-editable one, even if by some sort of transparent-to-the-user animation path hack. Although most live geometry generators are based on analyzing child polymeshes, would that be a good foundation for them to take advantage of? I think that would make having an Animator-based AI-to-Bezier importer more sensible, and perhaps there could be some commonality with the PS/TT text-to-3D one (actually, in such a context, that one ideally ought to be able to spit Bezier-based text outlines, too).

As I see it, it ought to support open and closed shapes, a few boolean tags to characterize paths as hole shapes and intersections, and a minimal Photoshop-like path toolset. That, and probably some path-to-poly parameters for "legacy" poly-based plugins to take advantage of it too.

I think such a tool would satisfy the Igors' convictions, be a better fit and a good base for further developments in very different areas. Of course, this could be a daunting programming problem to solve, but…

[Martin Kay]

I think part a big of the problem is that EI has no modeler, it was possibly underestimated how important this is when they dropped the spatial license.

Hopfully Tesla will have a major impact on how EIAS is viewed as a package.

i can only comment on modo's SDS, it was the GUI i had a problem with, been a long time since i looked at the app.

Reuben

Its not always so obvious where a tool should go. Where does a tool that converts vertexes to polys go, in the vertex set or the poly set...? I think in the polys set- ie polys from vertexes- but you could argue opposite, ie in the vertex set- vertexes to polys...

Martin K

[sacslacker]

If you don't mind me posting a perspective from a person who at a time had to learn C4D and was trying to learn EI; I found C4D was many times easier to learn and get going on. I was actually very surprised. I hear a lot of opinions that EI is going to be much easier than the others (specifically C4D) for those new to 3D (or in my case new to EI and C4D) and I just don't agree. I think EI might be easier for those who have been using it for a long time but not so much for those that are new. Not to mention there is a ton of training material out for apps like Maya, C4D, etc.

I'm totally not trying to bash EI or be obtuse but I think if you're seriously looking to break into the "new to 3D" market this would have to be addressed.

Also, I wouldn't say XSI is overrated. I'd argue that we're seeing some of the best innovation coming from Softimage lately. To me it's still one of the best SubD modelers out there and it's the only application that has even tempted me to move from Maya. Unfortunately I'm not made of money and I've got a siginificant investment in Maya for my personal work!

Seriously, you can't be objective about where EI stands if you don't take a long hard look at these other appllications and understand it's not just hype, they are honestly moving forward at a far greater pace.

Again I don't mean to sound like an arse.

[PaulS2]

I completely agree...and I say it from someone who uses EI and likes it and has a copy but doesn't really use C4D much.

If a totally inexperienced (in 3D) photoshop artist downloaded both demos and tried to create a 3D version of a simple graphic they have in mind they would succeed in C4D but fail miserably in EI.

At this point in time EI is not for new 3D users. There is no modeler and import is just hit or miss without Obj2Fac. I'm really hoping Tesla comes out being extremely forgiving in it's use but still keeping the power it always had....if it does, there is a chance to penetrate a new-user market. If not EI will continue to be a good value for experienced 3D artists.

I also agree that EI is not cutting edge technology though some of it's older technology is still top flight in regards other 3D apps. In some areas it was so far ahead some apps are just now catching up.

[scottfox]

Way off target here guys. A new thread should be started if you haven't fully grasped what this thread has been about in WHOLE. Ai import into Paraluminos trestle. And the market that it appeals to most.

I said in one of my posts, a new 3d artist would most likely choose Cinema, Maya etc. They are currently more full featured, modern, and rounded 3d Apps. I understand that.
So, please, understand me on that. I agree with you. EI is generally not even in that
conversation due to lack of an integrated 3d modeler alone.

FIRST - answer these questions -- Are those of you responding. Professional Broadcast Designers? Work in TV? Zaxwerks invigerator users (as your MAIN modeler) Need to turn around animations in 4-8 hours starting with an illustrator logo? Work somewhere were $700 can get approved much easier than $2500-$5000 can? My guess is no. The market for these tools are ME, and MY field of expertise. I know it like the back of my hand. This thread has goten so long that these points have been lost a bit.

To whoever said you need to know about other 3d apps before commenting on them. Again, I feel some of this directed at me, I have used Cinema and I know a lot about it (in my 16 yrs) I just recently finished 10 40hr weeks of Maya Unlimited training in Hollywood at the Gnomon school for Visual Effects (cost me 9k) in January of this year. (you want to hear about Cinemas issues, spend time with some of the industry experts, teachers and 3d users at gnomon.) But thats 3d career artist vs 3d career artist. Ei was certainly not mentioned much at all for all the reasons I stated before. I chose Maya as my "serious 3d app" because I wanted to take my 3d work, (slowly) to another level of detail. Maya vs Cinema. Is a more applicable comparison, toolset vs toolset.

Cinema in a way, is a 'mini maya'. It has hundreds of features, details and settings, related to these features. The modeler alone is a difficult tool for most broadcast designers to grasp. EI does not have that to clutter up its interface, or for a designer to use. That alone makes EI, as a whole, easier to use. You can not tell ANYONE that
learning a tool that has 1000 details, features and settings, is EASIER to learn than a tool
with 200. (just an analogy) This is simply logic, not emotion. Sure Cinema has a ton of learning dvd's you can buy. That helps prove my point, the users I am talking about dont have the time, or want to spend the money on, dvds to learn features for something they are using for a design element or simply a logo. Check out Ians FREE tutorials, they are short, easy to follow and cover most of the major things you need to know. Even those videos explain more than a Broadcast designer needs.

now PaulS is even mistaken a bit on this threads target, let me quote him on another thread he posted very recently.

"I do use EI quite often in my work. If any (still) project has even a hint of it being animated I will always use EI.

EI's basic toolset for animation is quite fool-proof and I can turn out stuff very fast....and there tends to be very few technical issues to deal with. Stuff like AA, motion blur, etc is always right.

High res always gets done in EI - I don't even try anywhere else. I've never had one hi-res project present a problem in EI.

EI's procedurals are the best I have ever used - they look believeable and contain a richness not found elsewhere.

I have been spending time with Rhino/Brazil which I really like. Rhino is a fabulous modeler and Brazil, while being in beta and having the occasional issue, is very feature rich. Having one of my favorite renders in one of my favorite modelers has spoiled me but EI still has much to offer."

Ai import into Trestle and trestles use with other tools and plug ins in EI makes EI a very nice tool for Broadcast designers.

I have said it and explained it a lot in this thread, as has Brian, so I feel this threads original point and purpose has changed. I love a good debate, but I just cant keep repeating myself....

[Reuben5150]

Seriously, you can't be objective about where EI stands if you don't take a long hard look at these other appllications and understand it's not just hype, they are honestly moving forward at a far greater pace.



This has gone way OT but i'll make one last point/s

The "other" companys moving farward faster is nothing new, most EI users are aware of this, i also don't think that EI constantly playing the catch up game is a game they are gonna win anytime soon and this is the wrong strategy for them IMO, but THEY ARE still moving forward at least.

Don't be too quick to assume others have never looked over the fence to the "big boys" field and are unaware of what their other apps have to offer, i find this quite annoying Btw

Xsi has a very visually pleasing GUI....

Thats it, no more OT from me.

Reuben

[ediris]

Nothing is persaonal in this thread at least i want to think so. We just a small comunity of artist . Well as a Senior Broadcast Designer I have worked for a Spanish Network animating logos,Bumpers all that good stuff and several TV Shows. So everybody knows his or her stuff here. The point is to find a future for EIAS.
I might not be so clever with my expression at times, but one thing i know isa how to survive with the tools you give me. I have used a lot of 3d application in my life and i am not young either. All our comments in some way or another are just trying to help EI to make a better product.
We are not gonna sell more licenses if trestle can import .ai files nor an integrated modeler. That might help a little but is not the foundation of the problem in EI. but perhaps the lack of strategies that is missing whithin EITG.

And please when we talked about other apps we are not refering to nobody we are talking how can we improve EIAS to make a better product base on our experiences as artists.

Hidden plug-in technology
A way to cuastomize the interface,i am texturing i dont need to have two monitoras i just click on texturing mode and all my tools are ready to texture with EI.Is those things that are missing .
Camera is excellent but we cant live in Rendering mode the whole time. In my experience with other application i found Lightwave and EI to be a pain in the neck. They both awesome applications but you have to make them work for you.
I hope i dint cause any harm.
Keep doing some good images.

[PaulS2]

Way off target here guys. A new thread should be started if you haven't fully grasped what this thread has been about in WHOLE. Ai import into Paraluminos trestle. And the market that it appeals to most.

I said in one of my posts, a new 3d artist would most likely choose Cinema, Maya etc. They are currently more full featured, modern, and rounded 3d Apps. I understand that.
So, please, understand me on that. I agree with you. EI is generally not even in that
conversation due to lack of an integrated 3d modeler alone.

FIRST - answer these questions -- Are those of you responding. Professional Broadcast Designers? Work in TV? Zaxwerks invigerator users (as your MAIN modeler) Need to turn around animations in 4-8 hours starting with an illustrator logo? Work somewhere were $700 can get approved much easier than $2500-$5000 can? My guess is no. The market for these tools are ME, and MY field of expertise. I know it like the back of my hand. This thread has goten so long that these points have been lost a bit.

To whoever said you need to know about other 3d apps before commenting on them. Again, I feel some of this directed at me, I have used Cinema and I know a lot about it (in my 16 yrs) I just recently finished 10 40hr weeks of Maya Unlimited training in Hollywood at the Gnomon school for Visual Effects (cost me 9k) in January of this year. (you want to hear about Cinemas issues, spend time with some of the industry experts, teachers and 3d users at gnomon.) But thats 3d career artist vs 3d career artist. Ei was certainly not mentioned much at all for all the reasons I stated before. I chose Maya as my "serious 3d app" because I wanted to take my 3d work, (slowly) to another level of detail. Maya vs Cinema. Is a more applicable comparison, toolset vs toolset.

Cinema in a way, is a 'mini maya'. It has hundreds of features, details and settings, related to these features. The modeler alone is a difficult tool for most broadcast designers to grasp. EI does not have that to clutter up its interface, or for a designer to use. That alone makes EI, as a whole, easier to use. You can not tell ANYONE that
learning a tool that has 1000 details, features and settings, is EASIER to learn than a tool
with 200. (just an analogy) This is simply logic, not emotion. Sure Cinema has a ton of learning dvd's you can buy. That helps prove my point, the users I am talking about dont have the time, or want to spend the money on, dvds to learn features for something they are using for a design element or simply a logo. Check out Ians FREE tutorials, they are short, easy to follow and cover most of the major things you need to know. Even those videos explain more than a Broadcast designer needs.

now PaulS is even mistaken a bit on this threads target, let me quote him on another thread he posted very recently.

"I do use EI quite often in my work. If any (still) project has even a hint of it being animated I will always use EI.

EI's basic toolset for animation is quite fool-proof and I can turn out stuff very fast....and there tends to be very few technical issues to deal with. Stuff like AA, motion blur, etc is always right.

High res always gets done in EI - I don't even try anywhere else. I've never had one hi-res project present a problem in EI.

EI's procedurals are the best I have ever used - they look believeable and contain a richness not found elsewhere.

I have been spending time with Rhino/Brazil which I really like. Rhino is a fabulous modeler and Brazil, while being in beta and having the occasional issue, is very feature rich. Having one of my favorite renders in one of my favorite modelers has spoiled me but EI still has much to offer."

Ai import into Trestle and trestles use with other tools and plug ins in EI makes EI a very nice tool for Broadcast designers.

I have said it and explained it a lot in this thread, as has Brian, so I feel this threads original point and purpose has changed. I love a good debate, but I just cant keep repeating myself....

Thanks for getting this back on track - totally agree.

The market you are refering to is largely untapped and I would love to see EI and these pluggins made much, much more accessable through a good robust .ai inmport to Trestle.

[ediris]

Trestle is own by the Igors and Brian. The igors said it cant be done. Brian says it can be done in this life. We are going in circles here guys.

[arketype]

Trestle is own by the Igors and Brian. The igors said it cant be done. Brian says it can be done in this life. We are going in circles here guys.

Just some clarification here....
The Igors did NOT say that it couldn't be done....
But they have NOT committed to doing this either.

The Igors said that .ai import would be a "serious" bit of work, and that it should be taken as such. This is not a frivolous request, it will take weeks, maybe even months to program something like this and do it properly. This simply means planning, research, and adequate resources must be allocated for this to be successful.
In addition, they want to be sure that this is not a duplication of programming efforts already underway with Tesla.

The Igors have not said "yes" or "no", they specifically said "let's wait and see what Tesla brings us".

Personally, I would like to see Trestle augmented with .ai import, and I hope it happens.

Dave :)

[juanxer]

If the Igors think .ai import is a core app thing, how would they react to us asking them exactly that: an Animator-based simple .ai-to-FACT importer? I know it's not the same as an animatable profile solution, but at least that would be the easiest way to get Illustrator data into EI. Being Tesla an optional purchase, and possibly an expensive one, they can't argue that it would be a redundant tool.

But then, perhaps waiting for Tesla is a good thing if there is any chance of code reuse and repurposing (I wonder if there is any chance of cross-pollination between both Tesla and EI 8).

[ediris]

Hi Dave, i dont have any of the plugins Paralumino is offering i am gonna get them when i get paid from my last project .ai import or no import. They are a great set of tools personally i will want a Motion_Bundle. That will be sweet. I send an email to the igors and they talked about to wait for Tesla see how the business awaits for EITG. I am broadcast designer or even for any artist that likes to spend less time modeling and more animating shapes is a sweet tool to have. But for these plug in to be used they have to go through Animator so i go back again. Is not trestle is the host that needs enhancements,and sales has not being good either for EIAS and Paralumino.

[sacslacker]

Don't be too quick to assume others have never looked over the fence to the "big boys" field and are unaware of what their other apps have to offer, i find this quite annoying Btw


That wasn't my assumption at all. Actually, I'd think that people who are using EI and have been for a while are quite experienced and would likely have experience with other apps. I'm aware of the history of work from several of the users here and highly respect their work.

Actually, I'd like to see EI do better so I was offering my thoughts. I'm a new EI user but I'm not new to these apps and I wouldn't make assumptions like this. I was pointing my comments more towards EITG and "the Igors" since what Brian is proposing sounds to be a better plan than adding a modeler to EI. I could be wrong. Writing 3D software isn't my game. Just my opinion.

I seriously don't think adding .ai, .eps or whatever is really the key to bringing EI into the forefront. Sorry to say that. Would it be nice, totally. Would that make new users say WOW, Now I really have to buy EI. I doubt it. My reaction would be, great, most of these other apps have this ability and EI just caught up. Does that make sense? I'm seriously not trying to dis EI. I love the work that people have done with it. Their renders are killer. It's the reason I bought it and I don't normally try to tank something I have a vested interest in succeeding.

Anyway, sorry for the misunderstanding. Forums are easy to say things that don't translate correctly.

[Vizfizz]

If the Igors think .ai import is a core app thing, how would they react to us asking them exactly that: an Animator-based simple .ai-to-FACT importer? I know it's not the same as an animatable profile solution, but at least that would be the easiest way to get Illustrator data into EI. Being Tesla an optional purchase, and possibly an expensive one, they can't argue that it would be a redundant tool.

But then, perhaps waiting for Tesla is a good thing if there is any chance of code reuse and repurposing (I wonder if there is any chance of cross-pollination between both Tesla and EI 8).


Yes thank you all for getting back on track. Its CGtalk's policy to prohibit application comparison threads because they usually get a little hostile. So back to plugins.

The issue at hand for the Igors is trying to have them understand that effort on such a product would is warranted. They're also a bit afraid that it might be beyond the limitations of a plugin. We both want to see better sales results than last time. Its a bit of stalemate between us right now. They think I didn't market it well enough, and I think there are necessary core features, one in particular, that is necessary to add in order to truly attract the sales they desire. Trestle can handle this request...but it will take some work to make it multi contour compatible. Zax made it work..and made it work well. We can take one step better if they choose to cooperate. Its just a matter of finding the common ground and hopefully coming to an understanding.

I would argue against host/Animator import for the primary main reason that you would loose all ability to modify the CV points of the curve once it gets into Animator. We want to make sure we can still retain animation capabilities on the CV level and retain the ability to reshape the curve. That is the beauty of Trestle right now. Any form of import on the host level will be static because it will be converted into a fact model. You can't do anything to that but translate, rotate, and scale it. (And standard deforms) Vertices will be locked.

The argument against Tesla is: Once again, you're requiring two applications to do the work of what needs to be done in one (animator). You'd loose out on CV point animation capabilities and the price would probably be higher. (oh and more complex to learn)

[Vizfizz]

Actually, I'd like to see EI do better so I was offering my thoughts. I'm a new EI user but I'm not new to these apps and I wouldn't make assumptions like this. I was pointing my comments more towards EITG and "the Igors" since what Brian is proposing sounds to be a better plan than adding a modeler to EI. I could be wrong. Writing 3D software isn't my game. Just my opinion.


Tesla is absolutely necessary to the overall EITG strategy. Paralumino opens up a secondary tier of marketing for EITG that can be specifically focused at Broadcast Designers. It also assists in reducing the component level animation limitations in Animator. Its not perfect, but it is available in relatively short order.

Tesla will still be needed to model the complex geometry, but Paralumino could offer a solution for nearly 85% of the hard surface modeling needs you'd have within Animator. Add in the animation capabilities and you have a big plus for their further development.

[Reuben5150]

That wasn't my assumption at all. Actually, I'd think that people who are using EI and have been for a while are quite experienced and would likely have experience with other apps. I'm aware of the history of work from several of the users here and highly respect their work.

Actually, I'd like to see EI do better so I was offering my thoughts. I'm a new EI user but I'm not new to these apps and I wouldn't make assumptions like this. I was pointing my comments more towards EITG and "the Igors" since what Brian is proposing sounds to be a better plan than adding a modeler to EI. I could be wrong. Writing 3D software isn't my game. Just my opinion.

I seriously don't think adding .ai, .eps or whatever is really the key to bringing EI into the forefront. Sorry to say that. Would it be nice, totally. Would that make new users say WOW, Now I really have to buy EI. I doubt it. My reaction would be, great, most of these other apps have this ability and EI just caught up. Does that make sense? I'm seriously not trying to dis EI. I love the work that people have done with it. Their renders are killer. It's the reason I bought it and I don't normally try to tank something I have a vested interest in succeeding.

Anyway, sorry for the misunderstanding. Forums are easy to say things that don't translate correctly.

No problem,

Yes its always the buzz-word latest and greatest features that tend to grab the attention, this is why the constant catch up game isn't doing much good, they are always one step behind.

New ideas, concepts, ways of working, innovation and focus in areas where EI could really do well, mograph is obviously one of these areas and is quite capable as is, already proved by Scott.

Its because of the slightly underdeveloped state of ElectricImage (as i still like to call it) that it has so much potential, EIM and Camera were built on a great foundation, they got it right form the start, unsure about animator now though... but anyway...

[ediris]

Dont you think Aniamtor will be more attracted if you bundle it with PARALUMINO PLUGINS for extra price. These way you guys will be getting some of that money you invested in, and EITG will sale more licenses?

[juanxer]

I would argue against host/Animator import for the primary main reason that you would loose all ability to modify the CV points of the curve once it gets into Animator.
I understand. What I'd hope is that, perhaps, once such a host-based importer was around, it would be easier for the Igors to add some way to copy any imported mesh to the Trestle editor. I admit this is a very roundaboutish way to arrive there, but them being so adamant and things… (and an .ai importer able to do too the same extruding and beveling contortions the 3D text tool does would be a welcome thing to have in the base package, actually).

I'd still push for having a true spline-based drawing tool inside EIA in the future.

[Vizfizz]

Well just so we're clear...

At this moment in time, Animator lacks the infrastructure necessary to handle component level animation. Essentially, Animator only understands object level animation. Meaning, if you import a fact into Animator, it is an object. You can rotate it, scale it, translate it, and deform it. However, the "construction history" and the vertices of the model are inaccessible to the user in order to be modified. If you want to do that, you have to bounce back into Modeler/Tesla or your 3rd party package to change things.

Animator was never really intended to understand the component underpinnings of an object because of the split program paradigm. (Animator/Modeler) There are no drawing tools, no model editing, no splines, no clusters, no lattices, or any kind of objects that possess components. (Aka control vertices, hulls, isoparms, bezier handles or objects like that) The EIAS advisory board has identified that in order for Animator to possess these capabilities, a new infrastructure technology called "Mesh" has to be programmed into Animator. This is a huge undertaking. It would literally mean addressing the way Animator thinks. It would probably take at least one or perhaps two upgrades to get Animator to think on a component level. Such a task would also absorb most of the developers time and may reduce the overall number of other critical features that users want. Like a multi threaded Camera for instance. So...until this happens, EITG is relying on Tesla to handle the necessary component level model manipulations. Enter Paralumino.

Paralumino, through its plugs-ins, has begun to introduce control vertex animation capabilities. Each CV on a Trestle polyline can possess its own animation channels. Thus, curves and profiles can be animated to alter the shape and construction of an object anytime, without going back into Tesla/Modeler. The implementation is crude, but it does provide a level of animation capabilities that are not currently found in Animator, and likely wont be found in Animator for quite some time.

Even if EITG implemented host AI import, the resulting file would be a static Fact model. It would be incapable of being altered inside the host package. Ultimately, EITG would have to write a plugin itself to accomplish something Trestle already has a head start on. Otherwise, EITG would have to embrace the "Mesh" infrastructure which could take a considerable amount of time to see the light of day.

The Igors' central argument is redundancy. They don't believe having these tools in Animator are going to be attractive from a sales perspective because similar modeling (not animation) tools will exist in Tesla. Scott and my argument is it doesn't matter. Users have been asking for some level of modeling capabilities within Animator for simple and easy geometry construction AND having extra animation capabilities on top of it. The market this best addresses is the Broadcast Design market. These users need a method to generate hard surface geometry quickly and easily, and they want to do it inside of one package. Right now, users must take a curve from illustrator, bring it into Telsa, export it out as a fact, import it into Animator, all the while knowing its just going to be static overall.

Direct AI import into Trestle is the only logical means to bring AI files into EIAS in a simple one step, one program process. Illustrator is the defacto standard for drawing logos and we need ways to get that into EIAS without having to jump through multiple programs. It should be easy and straight forward. Trestle can meet that need if given the opportunity.

[Vizfizz]

If Trestle gets approved for v2, it is also my intended goal...whether with the Igors or with a different programmer... to create another plugin that would be like Image2Mesh, but possess the ability to paint the greyscale map within Animator itself. There have been rumors that Image2Mesh is going to be ported to UB, but I haven't seen it yet. I2M, is a wonderful plugin and it would be even more tremendous if one could actually modify and paint the greyscale map in Animator itself (or load one in for editing).

Granted, I'm not a programmer, but this is something I'd like to see. It may require another infrastructure technology to emerge called "Hidden Plugins" to pull off...but wouldn't it be great to have the ability to paint your own grey scale maps in Animator and turn the results into a generated mesh like terrain? Yes.. it would be nice.

[scottfox]

What a tease Brian! I loved IM2. Very useful. Remind me though. Whats the difference

between IM2 and the 'subpixel' displacement I hear about....

or tell me about it later, as I myself am now off topic:argh:

[sacslacker]

Being able to see displacement live in the viewport would be a very handy feature as well! Bleh, I can't seem to keep on topic today. Doh!

[barnabythebear]

Hiya All,


Ok here is my idea - why not ask Blair to add .ai import into Transporter for the time being?

He re-wrote the app and is also responsible for the fbx import so he seems to be the i/o guy?

It's not a great solution but you'd get your profiles into EI and also into Scrim & Swage etc.

ta

nige.

[futagoza]

would then Tresle handle Bezier curve information? On the other hand why not export .dxf from your drawing application, like i mentioned before, thus not needing .ai import in Transporter, etc....

Regards
Stefan

[barnabythebear]

Stefan,


I imagine that Transporter would allow you to control the tessalation of the wire/profile, and use the 3D view to fine tune it?

At least it's a direct ai - fact conversion, rather than ai - dxf - fact

But, as i said, it's not perfect!

ta

nige

[estudiodesign]

The point seems to be that you can only reform, manipulate or animate those
profiles when they are directly built in Trestle (at least at this point) or when they are imported through Trestle, as far as I understand.
For all other solutions EI seems to lack the infrastructure.
And being able to ANIMATE those profiles/geometries afterwards is the main point that makes the difference against simply having some nice curves imported.
Just take a look at the videos on the paralumino site if you haven`t yet.

Brian, maybe you should type your last post in red colour.
Because it explains very clear and compact what this thing is about ;-)

Cheers
Tom

[barnabythebear]

Hi Tom


True, but there seem to be other issues such as quality of import and 'bevelability' of wires etc.

nige

[ediris]

Hi Nige, since you are using Trestle, i dont have it now but will it be possible to :
1.Export a dxf file from your modeler of choice or vector graphic app.
2.Pass it through Transporter
3. Edit this Polyline.

Will these be possible? If so than we will be save for now until Trestle can import some .ai files directly.

[barnabythebear]

Hi,

Well, i have only just got Trestle so i'm no expert but i thought i had imported an exported trestle wire back into Trestle but I can't repeat the steps now...:-)


EDIT:

OK, i must have had a 'senior' moment. You can't get a wire into Trestle. I had miss-understood the master plugin system within Trestle....doh!!

I have to say though import or no, these plug-ins are FANTASTIC!!! I will certainly be getting another set for my home seat of EI. My primary use will be as modeling plugs - not animation, and I can't see my workflow changing when Tesla comes along as it's so nice to have this stuff in Animator.

ta


nige

[ediris]

Glad to hear you are using them Nige , i dont see myself getting Tesla neither for now but i am sure you will be animating with those babies when you get the chance . I am still waiting for my paycheck.:(

[Vizfizz]

Hi Nige, since you are using Trestle, i dont have it now but will it be possible to :
1.Export a dxf file from your modeler of choice or vector graphic app.
2.Pass it through Transporter
3. Edit this Polyline.

Will these be possible? If so than we will be save for now until Trestle can import some .ai files directly.

DXFs converted by Transporter form a standard FACT file for import into Animator. The results are static. The FACT file can not be edited or CV animated by Trestle. However, all the rest of the Paralumino plugins can use the FACT as a child object for a wire. Thus you could use it for lofting with Scrim or extruding with Swage. It can even be used for lathing with Revolver. But nothing for Trestle.

As you can see, there is currently no method to import outside 3rd party curves, wires, or polylines directly into the Trestle drawing editor and this is what I find excessively incomplete. Trestle can save and load its own native polylines to disk, but nothing can read them except Trestle. Thus Trestle is an island. This limitation is what has to change in order for the product to truly take off.

Illustrator is the logical first choice for supplying Trestle with contours from an outside source. It would also be logical to allow Trestle to directly load and edit wires directly exported out from Tesla/Modeler.

[ediris]

Ok since Paralumino plug ins work with any path or group of lines , my question is can those lines be for example a simple logo. I imagine a simple logo could be traced with some animated geometry along its path(the logo) and be formed of several goups and then parent those bezier curves and lines to an exturder i donot rember which one is for extruding geometry inside Paralumino.
Is it possible?

[Reuben5150]

ediris, if i understand your question right then the answer is yes.

Btw, A cool thing about SWAGE i did not know is that it does animated extrusions in realtime, i was quite shocked to see this happening on screen, its this kind of visual feedback EI users have wanting forever... as long as the poly-count is not too high then you can preview your stuff realtime.

see here - http://www.affinity3d.com/temp/SwageRTE1.mov

Some of the geometry seems to jump around a bit, i don't know whether this is a bug or what, haven't rendered it out to see...

[Veehoy]

Trestle can save and load its own native polylines to disk, but nothing can read them except Trestle. Thus Trestle is an island. This limitation is what has to change in order for the product to truly take off.
Maybe a stupid question, but....wouldn´t a plugin for Illustrator that writes to this proprietary format do the trick? Or is this "Trestle" polyline file format to limited?

[ediris]

Yes that is what i meant could those lines work for extruding as well?

Aout the jumping in between frames i will say is the graphics card. i dunno but it looks very nice.

[Reuben5150]

Yes that is what i meant could those lines work for extruding as well?

Aout the jumping in between frames i will say is the graphics card. i dunno but it looks very nice.

Well, Swage only extrudes paths or lines, Mrs Bebel can extrude surfaces and polys.

[Vizfizz]

Maybe a stupid question, but....wouldn´t a plugin for Illustrator that writes to this proprietary format do the trick? Or is this "Trestle" polyline file format to limited?


I will certainly look into this possibility.

[Vizfizz]

Ok since Paralumino plug ins work with any path or group of lines , my question is can those lines be for example a simple logo. I imagine a simple logo could be traced with some animated geometry along its path(the logo) and be formed of several goups and then parent those bezier curves and lines to an exturder i donot rember which one is for extruding geometry inside Paralumino.
Is it possible?

Absolutely possible. Here's a quick breakdown of capabilities:

Scrim: Lofts polyline/wires to form surfaces.
Swage: Extrudes polyline/wires along a path.
Revolver: Lathes polyline/wires around a central axis.
Braider: Analyzes geometry and creates polyline/wires that follow surface topology.
Trestle: Draws 2D polylines/wires that feed Scrim, Swage, and Revolver along with other 3rd party plugins.

Free plugins include:

Path2line: Converts an object motion path into a polyline for use with Scrim, Swage, and Revolver.
Wiremaker: Analyzes geometry and creates polyline/wires based of edges or polygons.
Runline: Included with Swage to cut up polylines into various user defined lengths.
Superlines: Creates shader based "false"geometry on wires at render time.

Konkeptoine Geometry Plugins that work well with Paralumino:

Mrs. Bebel: Extrudes surfaces with custom profile bevels. (Not path extrude)
Encage: Smoothes crude/rough geometry with SubDivision surface protocols.

[Vizfizz]

Rueben,

From what I saw in your example, you used Braider to analyze a model to create surface wires and then used them as a base path to extrude geometry along with Swage right? My guess is there might be overlapping areas of geometry that is causing the flickering.

Swage will extrude in realtime and it works pretty well...

[Vizfizz]

This is a simple example of animated extrusion in realtime. :

www.paralumino.com/CG_Talk/Swagetest.mov

www.paralumino.com/CG_Talk/Swagetest2b.mov

Here a simple wire was exported by EIM I believe and used as the extrusion path for the profile to follow. Everything here was being done in realtime in the EI camera window.

[Reuben5150]

Rueben,

From what I saw in your example, you used Braider to analyze a model to create surface wires and then used them as a base path to extrude geometry along with Swage right? My guess is there might be overlapping areas of geometry that is causing the flickering.

Swage will extrude in realtime and it works pretty well...

Hi Brian,

The setup was swage>runline>braider- i've still not rendered it out but i get the feeling it will still happen, anyway still trying out a few things.... maybe i should read the manual ;)

[richardjoly]

Another animated extrusion. The idea of the Hilbert cube was from the work of Stephan (sacenator) in the WIP section.

http://www.rdn.qc.ca/eias/Project_Hilbert2.mov

[AzOne]

Wow, Richard that's amazing.
Please submit it to the EI gallery. So it's all Swage?

[jimjam]

Possibilities...

Could Tesla conceivably save out wires and models in the Paralumino plugin format?

JimM

[richardjoly]

Thank you Aziz. Yes, it's all Swage and sooooo easy to do...
The Hilbert path was made in FormZ and exported as DXF (polylines).
It is really rewarding to play with these tools because of the instant feedback of your alterations. Originally it was supposed to be only one round extrusion but it was so simple to do, I made three... And I regret not having the star shape rotating as it moves...
Very powerful toys.

[dieGolum]

Olé, Richard triple ex good example, excellent execution.

More More please:applause:

Cheers
Diego

[Vizfizz]

Possibilities...

Could Tesla conceivably save out wires and models in the Paralumino plugin format?

JimM


Hi Jim,

Right now EIM (and potentially Telsa) wires can be saved out as a FACT file that can be used as child entities for Revolver, Scrim, Swage, Runline and Superlines to work on. Unfortunately EIM wires can not be loaded directly into Trestle for CV point editing. This is another import capability I'd like to see after AI files are supported.

However right now the old EIM has a small bug in it in that exported EIM wires contain 64 CV points per segment. So in the simplest terms if you were to draw a straight line with just 2 points and export that wire out of EIM to Animator, the exported Fact model would possess 64 CV points along that line. That would produce a huge amount of geometry with any of our plugins. You can only imagine if you were to draw a more complicated shape in EIM...the exported wire would possess hundreds of CVs and the result would be a polygon nightmare in Animator.

Hopefully Tesla will allow for variable tesselation for exported wires. That will improve things dramatically for us. And if I can't get the Igors to assist in creating v2 of Trestle, perhaps a tool can be added in Tesla to write out polylines in Trestle's native point format. I don't know yet.

[jimjam]

Thanks for clarifying, Brian.

I'm becoming more and more tempted by your Paralumino plugins, by the way.
The animations being shown in this thread are excellent advertisements.

Any update on when you'll be able to share more about Tesla?

JimM

[bbuxton]

Inspired by this thread I have taken yet another good look at the offerings at Zaxwerks.

I really do like the way the ProAnimator package works - namely the quality of the text/ai extrusions and also the animation presets. The big let down is the rendering. I can't see myself going for this without options to render elsewhere. Sadly there seems to be no way to get the animation out of ProAnimator & into EIAS or other 3D application. If only ProAnimator exported the animation, could this not be done via BVH?

BB

[futagoza]

Wouldn´t there ProModeler come in handy, instead of ProAnimator, to do the animating and rendering in EIAS?

Regards
Stefan

[bbuxton]

No the speed and simplicity of ProAnimator's animation (presets) is appealing but not the rendering.
If animation paths could be exported then that would mean I could perhaps tweak animation in EIAS. Mostly I just want to render in EIAS - no way do I ever want to use Zaxwerks renderer, to my eyes it's horrid and far too limited.

BB

edit: Getting 3D text/logos into EIAS is not a problem for me (I have good modeling tools, but I am not very good at motion graphics animation).

[ediris]

Hi Jim,

Right now EIM (and potentially Telsa) wires can be saved out as a FACT file that can be used as child entities for Revolver, Scrim, Swage, Runline and Superlines to work on. Unfortunately EIM wires can not be loaded directly into Trestle for CV point editing. This is another import capability I'd like to see after AI files are supported.

However right now the old EIM has a small bug in it in that exported EIM wires contain 64 CV points per segment. So in the simplest terms if you were to draw a straight line with just 2 points and export that wire out of EIM to Animator, the exported Fact model would possess 64 CV points along that line. That would produce a huge amount of geometry with any of our plugins. You can only imagine if you were to draw a more complicated shape in EIM...the exported wire would possess hundreds of CVs and the result would be a polygon nightmare in Animator.

Hopefully Tesla will allow for variable tesselation for exported wires. That will improve things dramatically for us. And if I can't get the Igors to assist in creating v2 of Trestle, perhaps a tool can be added in Tesla to write out polylines in Trestle's native point format. I don't know yet.

1.Ok so will it be ¨easier to develop¨ a Tesla loader inside Trestle, for CV edit and animation than the famous .ai importer?

2. I guess what i was looking for is a combination of ASwage and MrsBevel so it could do an extrusion based on a path or polyline and at the same time rounded caps.That could be amazing for version2 of SWAGE or whatever you guys want.

[Vizfizz]

The need for wire import from Tesla into Trestle would at least give a certain amount of construction compatibility between applications for the purposes of animation. Its not much, but even the smallest amount would go a long way here.

As for Caps...well right now Swage can already construct rounded caps if that's the way you want to draw them. Swage's capping function is a bit different than most.. I'll agree. But it does work pretty well once you get the hang of it. I'll admit that Bebel is more intuitive.

[scottfox]

•••••Sadly there seems to be no way to get the animation out of ProAnimator & into EIAS or other 3D application. If only ProAnimator exported the animation, could this not be done via BVH?•••••

Why would you want to. I have to politely disagree with your thoughts that Zax Pro Animator is good at the animation part of things. Its horrible. Way too limiting and awkward in its methodology) Trying to reinvent the wheel is not very easy.
I wouldnt bother with it. (to each his own i guess)

I love the modeling, get pro modeler and animate in EI. That and turbosquid have gotten me pretty far. ( I do want to add tesla however )

Obviously in this thread, I am lobbying hard to make Paralumino's tools EASY to get into for the 'new to 3d' artist. Im no programmer, but man oh man it just baffles me why getting ai import into these plugins or ANY plugin for that matter is so bleepin hard. They did it way back in 2.9 Why not now...

[bbuxton]

I'm primarily a modeler and not so good at animation which is why preset animations are so appealing. I realise that preset animation is limited in the same sense that stock models may hold some appeal to animators.

Without the animation tools in ProAnimator, Promodeler is a poor substitute for the tools I already have and with such poor render quality is never going to be an option.

This really does illustrate how diverse Paralumino's market is for these tools.

BB

[Navstar]

I know Zax is working on FBX support, so you can get those cool ProAnimator animations to render in other software. He's also working on dramatically improving rendering speeds.

[scottfox]

Im not well versed on what FBX actually transfers and if its "editable"

Like Ive said before Im a huge fan of Zax (as a person as well) and Invigerator pro. I just find the presets in Pro Animator to be a bit cheesy. Like Zax says, it may take hours to do in a 'real' 3d program and he's right. My question on most of his presets is why would I need to do that. And what happens when my client wants adjustments to the presets. Your back to 'hand' animating those. The nature of presets in most any application is how you tend to see them a lot. Most of us see some of the best animation out there, and can not detect any preset looking movement. How many of us have seen trapcodes Shine and 3d stroke used to death, and not very creatively. In fairness, I have also seen it used well and creatively. (the best 'preset' program in my opinion is clearly, Particle Illusion. They have thousands and their easy to adjust and make your own)

On the other hand, when I was doing more 'corporate' video work, videography so to speak. Where the budgets were not very high, a client would generally let ME come up with the idea and realize that major revisions would cost more. I could get away with a more 'typical' look.

I have had a number of conversations with Zax about capabilities with invigerator. I wanted him to incorporate a lathing option and possibly more.

To me he still has the single coolest export option that I can not do without, and thats the ability to 'slice' my model up into up to 6 individual 'models'. Id love to have that increased. Your ability to individually animate 6 models that combine to make 1 shape
really allows for hi end complexity in hard surface animation.

I see where he's going with this, he already has a large majority of the 'entry level' 3d artists in his pocket. Why not try and attract people wanting to go farther into a 'true' 3d
application. I wish him all the best.

my 4 cents

[juanxer]

One thing Zax' range of products have that I've seen nowhere else is the ability to pre-thin a profile so that, when growing a bevel unto it, you can avoid the resulting object being "fatter" than the original profile (as most extrude+bevel tools around do).

[PaulS2]

That is an outstanding ability and one of the reasons I keep considering getting it.

Mrs Bebel also has that, to some degree, in the newest version - or in a special version which I have. I'm not sure on that. I had asked the Igors to put it in and they had but it seems to work only some of the time....but better than nothing. It's a similar thing but not exactly the same....Zax's is far more robust.

[scottfox]

Love that thinning feature as well. Also the ability to have two profiles at once is very useful as well.

[CGTalk Moderation]

This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.