Question on making close fitting clothes

[DELTAadmin]

I feel u can not avoid heavy manual tweaking.
It is the way hollywood studios do clothes, some people are assigned to this task only.

[Keith Young]

Hi Chris,

Welcome to clothing hell in C4d ;). I've run into the same issues using Project and have mostly ended up just tweaking by hand (which is can be difficult due to z-buffer issues in the editor window). I usually try to stick with non-editable lofted splines as long as possible to keep from having to tweak every vertex though.

If you have C4D 8 (I only have 7.3 :annoyed: ), then Paul Everett has a plugin that you might want to look at called 'Surface Painter'. Among other things, it looks like it will let you 'paint' splines onto a surface (supposedly better than the project function).

You can check it out here (http://www.tools4d.com/).

I don't have any suggestions on your other questions, but am anxious to hear what the C4D gurus have to say.

- Keith

[Keith Young]

...I had a couple other thoughts ;)...

If you're interested, I have a few free base meshes available here (http://www.renderosity.com/freestuff.ez?Form.Contrib=Spanki&Topsectionid=0) .

You might also want to check out the Ployline to Spline Plugin (http://homepage2.nifty.com/aquawave/cafeteria/polytospline.html) . You can select vertices right on the target mesh and loft them into splines (woohoo! ;) ).

[Keith Young]

Woops, here's the English version of Polyline to Spline page (http://homepage2.nifty.com/aquawave/e/cafeteria/polytospline.html) .

He's got some other neat plugins there to check out as well.

[flingster]

couple of plugs as part of dpack that might help ya
splinedrawmore..allows you to draw splines on surface as far as i can tell and dpprojectpolygon.

if i was you go and download the manual pdf and take a look yourself...
http://www.the3ddesigner.de/
seems to be options on purchase of dpack...don't have to buy complete but can buy just modelling part etc.


as for modelling clothes surely there are tuts for poser stuff that might help ya...convert tut for use in c4d...dunno just a thought...the poser people are always making clothes and selling em...just a thought. also if you do come across any good tuts please post em...i'd be interested in hows etc of hows it done.

:thumbsup: good luck

[Cris-Palomino]

Thank you all for your swift answers. I will look into all of this.

Keith, I will look to see if Polyline to spline works much different than Edge selection to spline which is in R8. Thanks for all the other stuff, too, will look at all of it.

Flingster, dang, I have DPack. Just hadn't worked with all the plugins as I purchased it for one particular one. I will most definitely post anything I come across. Will also post my findings if I'm able to make it work.

Delta, I don't think that I can get away from tweaking, but am trying to find a way not to have to tweak every single point. That I don't think should be necessary. At this point, I am just trying to find out how much unnecessary work I am doing that could be done in another way to make it more efficient.

Thanks again to all.
Cris

[cookepuss]

AFAIK, PolylineToSpline doesn't work with R8. You will have to use the edge selection to spline function instead.

Just a thought, but if you're looking to make skin hugging corset... Couldn't you just copy the polys around that area of the body and use that as the basis for the corset (tweaking along the way)? The issue of cloth thickness shouldn't be a problem, providing you use the MakeThicker plugin. Just select the polygons that you copied for the basis of the corset and MakeThicker once you're ready. Then, to save geometry, delete any faces that'll never be seen, such as the underside of the clothing.

[AdamT]

Originally posted by cookepuss
AFAIK, PolylineToSpline doesn't work with R8. You will have to use the edge selection to spline function instead.

Just a thought, but if you're looking to make skin hugging corset... Couldn't you just copy the polys around that area of the body and use that as the basis for the corset (tweaking along the way)? The issue of cloth thickness shouldn't be a problem, providing you use the MakeThicker plugin. Just select the polygons that you copied for the basis of the corset and MakeThicker once you're ready. Then, to save geometry, delete any faces that'll never be seen, such as the underside of the clothing.

Yes, that's certainly far-and-away the easiest way to create body hugging clothing. Another option of course is simply to use textures.

[Cris-Palomino]

For personal use, yes.

For resale purposes, no. You are essentially tacking your work onto someone else's mesh which is not kosher.

Thanks, though.
Cris

[cookepuss]

Didn't notice the commercial aspect. That'd classify as a derivative work then.

Another viable alternative is to just render the body in left & front profiles and then use the resultant images as background rotoscopes. You could then just as easily HyperNURBS a mesh that way, based on the rotoscopes. That would be extremely easy to do.

This way, if you're concerned about derivative geometry, you can get a tight fitting corset, provided you work well with rotoscopes. None of the original geometry will get used in the final product that way.

[Cris-Palomino]

Could you explain that a little more? I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean. Have you done it, have you possibly any examples of how this works?

I appreciate the input.

Thanks,
Cris

[Cris-Palomino]

Oh, I reread your post. Yes, I think i got it. That will be another option, yes.

Thanks,
Cris

[Cris-Palomino]

Keith,

Your meshes are for Victoria 2? I will see how they fit on V3 and what kind of modifications they need.

Thank you for the kind offer.

Cris

[Keith Young]

Yes, they were form-fit onto an un-morphed V2 (one vertex at a time), but should be pretty close to V3 as well. You might also try a search in free stuff areas for 'Thip' - he did (copyright-free) base meshes for several of those models.

Mine aren't great layout-wise, but may be useful as a starting point. I made them starting from a Cube in Wings3D, but if (when) I do it again, I'll try one of the plugins mentioned above and try to keep the splines around to make it easier (easier to move 10-20 spline points around than 50-80 vertices ;) ).

[AdamT]

Hmm, is it really forbidden to cut parts of the geometry and rework it into a new and different model? It seems to me this poses a lot of questions, like:

could you create *new* points, snap them to the existing points, and bridge them to make a new model?

is it forbidden to project splines on the geometry and use the splines to make a new model? Isn't this just as derivative as the former?

what if you copied polys from the model but completely reworked the geometry to arrive at a new model?

Anyone know for sure what's allowed and what isn't?

[smoke]

I thought that it has to be the original points/faces but I'm probably wrong:shrug:

[Per-Anders]

um... you know you can use the outline tool and then remove the inner spline right?

then on top of that a far better way would be to simply smooth shift up the geometry on the body in the area in question (just a little bit) and then weld the appropriste points to create the effect of cloth accross the form rather than skin (i.e. cloth will bridge certain gaps... simply done by welding removing the points int he gaps or welding them to points outside of the gaps.

[Keith Young]

There's been a lot of discussion on that subject in the Poser world where there are a lot of aftermarket products produced by people who do not hold the original copyrights to the target mesh. I'm not a lawyer and ultimately a court would have to make any final judgments but...

DAZ Productions (who makes most of the character meshes) takes the position that pretty much any method you use to make clothing for/fit one of their characters is basically derivative work. However they don't wish to hamper the aftermarket efforts, so they only get bent out of shape about it if you are producing a competitive product/character.

For Example: Jim Burton created an entirely new character mesh (originally molded around a DAZ Vicky model) and they eventually coerced him to require end-users to have purchased Vicky to own his mesh.

As for clothing, I don't know how you'd make it fit the model without in some way deriving it from the bas mesh layout but basically, if you kill the aftermarket, you kill your own product - no one is going to buy thier characters if they can't count on having expansive clothing and accessories support from the huge base of merchants now making them - so they find themselves in the odd position of encouraging 3rd parties to make clothing/hair/etc. while still trying to protect thier intelectual property rights.

:shrug:

[kiwi]

For clothing I would I select the polys in the area you want then use the split command,and voila a piece of clothing :) If anyone hassle you about the makeup of the mesh of the corset just subdivide it,argument over as its no longer similar :)



I can see how these people can claim copyright to their color maps and painted garments etc,but the Poser meshs are way to similar to really be able to be copy written as its impossible to tell who has plagarised what.What if Bay Raitt or one of the masters decided to patent edge looping,all Poser builders would have to pay a sum to them to use it.I think these Poser builders are garbbing at straws trying to copyright their meshs minus name minus color maps,maybe minus rigs as well.......JMO



If you want a way around it just make a store dummy lke they have in the window of department stores and place your corset on that :)



Stu.

[AdamT]

Well, I doubt that Daz could prevent anyone from selling a mesh that *looks* like their model, even if they wanted to. Vicki isn't exactly the most distinctive form in the world--being itself something of an attempt to capture the "ideal" female figure.

[kiwi]

Ya I agree with that Adam :)



Since we are on this subject,that also means that companies making SLA procedural materials for C4D use etc {without bitmaps included} cannot copyright their settings {I mean the native C4D SLA shaders} of say there implementation of moss or wood etc :),does that sound right to you guys as well?...I just mean settings not code or anything else.



Stu.

[WDupre]

well I dont post here umm (looks to left) ever but Cris showed me this thread.
sla shader settings would probably be considered a recipe under copyrite law and therefore not covered, as recipes are specificly excluded from copyrite.
though there is a court case being decided in texas where a judge has issued a temporary injunction against a recipe website from distributing the recipes from a cookbook so there may be a landmark decision to come which could invalidate the recipe exclusion.

[Cris-Palomino]

I see we're getting into a discussion on derivative works. I understand where DAZ is coming from and as I broker with them, I choose to abide by their rules. It only seems fair to try to do my own bit of work and not directly derive from theirs.

In any case, I recieved a reply from Tech that the points seemed to be embedded only because I wasn't using enough points. I tried to do the circle splines, but things didn't match up and give me a clean mesh. So I went back to a method that Will Dupre had shown me using vertical splines in a radial around the figure, projected and then use cross section. I was having trouble lining up. Will was doing it visually, but I wanted a little more precision.

I used the parallel view and lined everything up. I then placed my figure in a null and rotated the null with kept the view window stationary (if I'm explaining this well enough to be understood). I then created a spline with many points vertically...the length of the corset as it would lay on the figure. Placing it at the center line of the figure, I rotated the figure in 10 degree increments. With the spline outside of the null, the figure rotated while the line stayed in place. I duplicated the spline, from one I had placed in reserve, each time I rotated. This gave me 36 lines around the figure (well, in this case, it was actually 34, I missed one at the start and didn't feel like doing it over). I then created cross sections from these splines and turning off the Y-axis (Will's suggestion), enlarged the loft to extend past the surface of the figure as much as I could without going too far.

This is the ensuing lofted corset base:
http://www.elektralusion.com/images/projects/corsetmeshlofted.jpg

And this is the figure under the loft:
http://www.elektralusion.com/images/projects/corsetmeshwithfig.jpg

Good enough to take to the polygon stage and start working it.

Thanks to all that were kind enough to respond. Special thanks to my friend, Will, who has the patience of an angel. :)

Cris

[Keith Young]

Vertical splines then cross-sections, eh? Hmm... thanks for the tip, I may try that.

[flingster]

i realise some people are selling clothes and accessories for poser characters...is there real money in this...or would you be better just making generic model subjects and selling them?

Cris: thanks for posting the method bud...appreciated.

as for copyright issue...imho and not my legal advisors...it would only be relevant if the method was patented surely...as essentially there are very few differences in topology methods.
i mean if you essentially copy the figure and point location verbatim then this is clearly copying...don't tell me the models from daz are not derivitative work themselves in some sense...either by the modellers experiences...techniques from here and there...just a thought...personally i would have problems with just hacking out something from a daz model then claiming it to be my own work....i mean...but in this case its not what we are talking about...essentially Cris's work is intended to complement daz models and he is not claiming he came up with the base model...those who own a daz model would be worth you reading the small print.

[Keith Young]

I guess this is still sorta on topic ;)...

i realise some people are selling clothes and accessories for poser characters...is there real money in this...or would you be better just making generic model subjects and selling them?

I can only speak from my own experiance - I finally had a 'top selling' item on Renderosity ('V3 Conforming Stockings' was the most popular purchase for several weeks when it came out) of which I've sold roughly 250 of in the past 7 weeks. Some 200 of those sales were in the first 4 weeks.

The killer is the cut that they take (40% for exclusive products, 50% for non-exclusive). Anyway, you can do the math on a $6.00 item - I'm not getting rich, but it supports my habbit ;).

If you come up with a good selling package in the ~$20 range (clothing, textures, whatever), you can make decent cash.

[flingster]

incedible...would never have guessed it...thanks..:thumbsup:

[Keith Young]

V3 Conforming Stockings (http://market.renderosity.com/softgood.ez?ViewSoftgood=18252) ... Each of the horizontal lines is a spline and part of a lofted surface.

[Keith Young]

Ooops, try again...

[WDupre]

thanks for the mention Cris (and by the way he is a She)
you and I are both learning this great program together and I get back just as much as I offer in help.
on the question of whether a mesh is copyritable. the answer acording to the US copyrite office is yes they are. after all of the arguments that have gone on over the past few years an employee of DAZ decided to go right to the source and ask the question. and the copyrite office agreed with them that the mesh and texture both would be covered under copyright. and it has been upheld in at least two cort cases one in the US and one in germany that I've heard of. if the pattern of a mesh is recognizably individual it is can be treated as a piece of artwork or a layout both of which are copyritable.
as far as shrink wrapping that is a different matter and if the mesh is diffferent it would be hard to prove that this was derivitive work. though if the whole figure were copied by shrinkwrapping and sold as an original work a case could be made that this is a sculptural work that is being reproduced.

[WDupre]

I'm sorry, I reread my post and it sounded as if the court cases I mentioned involved DAZ, they did not to my knowledge.

[kiwi]

Thats scary :surprised


It is not totally unfeasible that two people both modelling bikini models,could come up with two meshes so similar if not identical without ever seeing each others work :hmm:,but then I suppose the color map would be the clincher from there.



nice stockings Keith :thumbsup: ,shame its 40%,but I suppose its better then nothing eh.




A bit OT again but when I used to sell my paintings the shop took 20%,but that was quite a while ago.I have even heard of people having an exhibition,having the gallery do the framing and sort out bits and pieces,and then selling all their works and still oweing the gallery money :rolleyes:



Stu.

[AdamT]

Welcome WDupre. Do I detect the presence of another lawyer? I feel a disturbence in the Force! :) I am one, but I have virtually no experience in intellectual property.

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