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RobertoOrtiz
04-17-2008, 06:43 PM
Guys I want to review the the rules for the Daily Sketch Forum,
and I am looking for your input.

Some ideas I am toying with are:


Should we simplify the rules?
Should we eliminate the time limits?
Should we start closing threads 48 hours after they have been posted?
Should we use stopwatches?
Should we do a weekly review?
Should I do more special 3d stuff like the ONUTS?
Looking forward to your ideas and comments.
-R

fdiskart
04-17-2008, 07:08 PM
Here is my humble input:

Should we simplify the rules?
- They seem fine to me; I've never had a problem following them

Should we eliminate the time limits?
- You could leave them as "Suggested Time". There really isn't anything stopping someone from saying they spent 30 minutes when they really spent 2 hours on an image.

Should we start closing threads 48 hours after they have been posted?
- If you want, I think more importantly you should start making the current thread a "sticky". I don't visit this forum daily, and when I do I always have a hard time figuring out which is the current thread.

Should we use stopwatches?
- Elaborate on this, please.

Should we do a weekly review?
- Elaborate on this, please. Isn't the voting, technically a weekly review?

Should I do more special 3d stuff like the ONUTS?
- I know I'm alone in this one since this has been the hottest challenge lately; but this is a daily sketch forum, not a daily skinning forum. I have no 3D experience whatsoever, so it's kind of a disheartening when one of the few forums in CGTalk not saturated with 3D is in risk of becoming like the rest.

This is just my opinion, obviously.

RobertoOrtiz
04-17-2008, 07:38 PM
Oh almost forgot,

I am negotiating a Q&A section with a surprise celebrity illustrator ONLY for Members of the DSF.
Kinda like a perks program I want to start.
(No promises)

Are you guys intrested in this sort of stuff?

and let me address some points:

Should we use stopwatches?
- I was thinking of doing trads that woull be used to track performace.
A record on HOW FAST an artist is over a period of time.


Should we do a weekly review?
- Elaborate on this, please. Isn't the voting, technically a weekly review?

Yes and now...
I want to foster a sence of community among our DSF members.


-R

Wexter
04-17-2008, 10:28 PM
Hi Roberto,

Some ideas I am toying with are:


Should we simplify the rules? No, the rules for me are simple DRAW in the t limit!
Should we eliminate the time limits? No, users can allways post their final work to.
Should we start closing threads 48 hours after they have been posted?
could be, u could make some ntl , for more time (1 week)



Should we use stopwatches? dunno how it works
Should we do a weekly review? or a Month review in one week time limit drawings
Should I do more special 3d stuff like the ONUTS? one per month is fine, maybe some 1 week challenges per month. So it has a speciall review, like the weekly review you prupouse. Members can ask every day for advices of other people in any ds post.
anyway i think the forum is just fine like it is, is the people who is not posting so much this time. but, well i hope more and more entuciast people will come, to increase their skills.... DSF for ever!

CGOutcast
04-18-2008, 01:20 AM
The stopwatch sounds interesting because its pretty much the honor system here as far as time goes lol And i always thought we were only allowed the time specified and always see someone who spent more time winning. This kind of takes the fun out of making what I can in the specified time while some finish up there pieces with double the time, granted there are NTL but its the time constraints that I love about this forum. I love the idea of once that times up its over and you should show what you came up with, like a sketch should be.

gruvsyco
04-18-2008, 01:50 AM
The only thing I would change it is the time limits. It's my main reason for not attempting to enter.

SeifoSid
04-18-2008, 01:50 AM
I always stick to the time Limit. But i think it could be increased a bit. The guest artist idea sounds good, maybe we can have DSF days where you have to reproduce a certain image by a certain artist.

RalphDamiani
04-18-2008, 02:06 AM
I like how everything works here. The only thing that really bothers me is how the voting happens, which is not very practical at all. I need to open each thread individually then look at all the art posted there and then input manually which is my favorite and from where it's coming from. If there was a faster way to put on display all the competing images and then if we could click to vote...That would be a major improvement.

Time limits are fine, though sometimes themes are too interesting for very small time frames that seem to be randomly established. I'd say that 60 minutes should be the minimum for all sketches.

It would be nice if we also had a stars system, so we could motivate the artists we like or the artists that make progress, without needing to rely on the competition itself. Sometimes there are many great entries that go unrewarded because there can be only one winner for each thread.

Memorial-Strife
04-18-2008, 04:22 AM
I think the rules are fine. Although I don't like the idea of a time limit, it may help you to improve your speed in drawing, so I guess is fine too.

However I disagree on the idea of closing the thread after 48 hours, sometimes people are busy and can't post on the first day of the thread. Like someone wrote before, 1 week should be better.

fdiskart
04-18-2008, 05:14 AM
I like the stars idea, I hate to admit it but sometimes I lose motivation if someone posted an above average image; and in a forum packed with the most talented people in the digital art world it's rare when that doesn't happen.

I honestly wish I could participate more; this is by far my favorite forum and the only one I frequent; I only visit the rest when something makes it to the front page.

Circassian
04-18-2008, 06:53 AM
Should we simplify the rules? I agree with wexter, rules are simple
Should we eliminate the time limits? I agree again with wexter
and for users who think its not fair that they respected the time limit and other users who gone over the limit won, according to the rules, It's allowed to go over the time limit, if you post your progress once the limit expires, I think If all users respect that rule, you can vote according to the first one, In the end, its a place to share ideas,techniques, winning is just to add some taste, not a big deal, thats my opinion in the end...

Should we start closing threads 48 hours after they have been posted? Week should be more convenient, sometimes you start a sketch, and you go on & off, sometimes you have the patience to finish it like you want, 48h is kind of limited
Should we use stopwatches? Sounds Interesting If I got it right
Should we do a weekly review? Yes, Why not.
Should I do more special 3d stuff like the ONUTS? I don't mind, as long as there's another topic to draw that day, or if its once a month.
In The end Thank You RobertoOrtiz for your efforts, really appreciated.

SmallPoly
04-18-2008, 07:55 AM
Hi Roberto,
Here are my thoughts:

Should we simplify the rules?
Right now the rules seem oddly organized and are a bit hard to read at a glance. But then again, there aren't that many of them so it isn't really a problem. The bold text in various parts makes my eye jump around a lot and distracts from the rest of the text. I think it could be made more readable by grouping the rules into different sets and rearranging the sentences to have the bold text at the front.

Here's my attempt, though I'm not sure if it counts as simplifying since it came out a lot longer than the current version of the rules:

Topic: "Gang"
Target: 55 minutes

Create a sketch based on the given topic, aiming to finish at the target time. You may interpret the topic any way you like, using any medium you want. Posted images must be 800x600 or smaller, but you can work at whatever size you feel comfortable with.

You may post your entry at any point before the relevant voting thread is posted.

Your post must contain:


Image: Your progress at the target time
Image: Your final sketch
The time it took to finish
The program you used
Feel free to post a short description of your work or make comments.

You should avoid:

Plagiarism: Don't trace or post work that isn't yours."Tributes" to other works are only allowed when explicitly stated (eg. a master studies topic).
Posting very large images: Keep images at 800x600 or smaller so that everyone can see the whole thing at once
Posts violating the rules will be removed.

FAQ:
What is a medium?
The materials you create your art with (eg. digital painting, pencil on paper, paint on canvas, crayon on drywall, etc.)

Where do the topics come from?
Topics are picked at random from the list on the TOPICS thread. >>LINK<< (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php/?t=145003)
(The author will be given credit). So guys keep them coming.

I'm done but still have time! What do I do? Spend the rest of the time polishing your work by fixing its weakest parts.

I'm still not done and i'm out of time! What do I do?
You have two options:
1. Stop at the target and post whatever you have done.
2. Save a copy of whatever you have, then continue working until you finish. If you do this, then you must post both what you had at the target time in addition to the final image.
Try to analyze what parts you dwelled on the most, and what could have been simplified or sacrificed.


Should we eliminate the time limits?
Definately no. It's essential for any artist looking to join the CG industry to be able to work within time limits. Having a time limit encourages the development of efficient workflows and helps an artist's ability to guage what he/she can accomplish in a particular amount of time. For many businesses, good by Tuesday is better than perfect by Friday.

Should we start closing threads 48 hours after they have been posted?
I kind of like having more time to post an entry, 48 hours sounds like it would usually be enough for most people to find the time. Having a shorter deadline could also potentially "encourage" greater commitment --> "better post quick before you lose your chance!"

Should we use stopwatches?
I can see this sort of thing incorporated into the CG Portfolio or its own sub-forum. Depending on what's included (just numbers with links, images as well, etc.), I guess it could all go in one thread.

Should we do a weekly review?
A more in-depth type of review could be interesting.

Should I do more special 3d stuff like the ONUTS?
I had a good time doing both, and like the idea. It's a good way for people intimated by 3d apps to get a bit of texturing experience.

shards
04-18-2008, 10:26 AM
here's some ideas:


Should we simplify the rules?
Seems simple enough to me

Should we eliminate the time limits?
YES!! please!! that is the main reason I’m not participating anymore, the point is to post a topic and do a drawing/sketch/painting a day..it doesn’t matter if you took 2 mins or 5 hours, by setting a time limit for everyone we’re limiting the quality of the works that will appear in the forum, and if the forum is no pleasant to watch then one don’t feel challenged to participate. what I see right now is exactly that: not a lot of users and “poor” stuff because of so little time. Just my opinion anyway.. you can set yourself a time limit and say “hey I did this in 10 minutes” but do not force everyone else to do so. Yes I know that you can still work over the time limit etc but then you get ppl not voting your entry because of that and rather vote on a 10 mins doodle just cause it respected the rules

Should we start closing threads 48 hours after they have been posted?

The threads should be closed after ppl votes for their favorite..if there’s enough users and participation to allow this to happen in 48h then yes..otherwise I would keep it weekly

Should we use stopwatches?
if you’re going for some really fast activity then I suppose it would make sense like 1 min gesture or stuff like that.

Should we do a weekly review?
Would be cool if people felt encouraged to submit crits at some point yeah.

some random suggestion: the voting system still needs a poll kinda thing.or a better way to do it. And some longer activity maybe weekly would be cool too.

daw
04-18-2008, 11:12 AM
Should we eliminate the time limits?
- hmm, guess I have mixed feelings here! but I say YES if it's a reason people don't join in!

Should we start closing threads 48 hours after they have been posted?
- oh no! close it when you can vote on it...

one cool thing I remember was when there was a guest voter I really liked that!

and I miss the matte wars!

RalphDamiani
04-18-2008, 12:07 PM
For all those claiming that time limits should be eliminated, would you mind if time limits were simply suggested and then later at the weekly review awards go to the best looking artwork made within the suggested time limit -along- with the best looking sketch?

This way everyone can join in and have a chance to win, but we don't cease to award artists that can draw good looking sketches within a time frame, which is essencial in the industry, as someone pointed out.

Ivy00
04-18-2008, 01:04 PM
Those worried about the time limit thing .....

You are doing a sketch , not a complete painting. Some of them are going to look like scribbles and some are going to of course be better. If you don't time yourselves how are you going to just let go, loosen up and have fun. I have an egg timer right next to my monitor and it kind of gets the adrenaline flowing with that tick tick tick going in the background :)

Cyanid
04-18-2008, 01:58 PM
It would be nice if we also had a stars system, so we could motivate the artists we like or the artists that make progress, without needing to rely on the competition itself. Sometimes there are many great entries that go unrewarded because there can be only one winner for each thread.

I agree with that!

doomtoo
04-19-2008, 12:12 AM
Even though I haven't had much time to post (or improve), My opinions:
Should we simplify the rules?
-they seem fine

Should we eliminate the time limits?
-I hadn't realized before that you can post at the time + your final- which I think is best. I am kinda slow at art compared to people that have more experience, and posting only what I have after 30min would look un-recognizable


Should we start closing threads 48 hours after they have been posted?
-NO- I like going back over the week of the ones that aren't closed, and choosing which to do- I don't always like the topic on the daily sketch

Should we use stopwatches?
-I don't know how that would fix anything...

Should we do a weekly review?
-I don't understand, but if you mean critiquing everyones pieces, I think that could be helpful

Should I do more special 3d stuff like the ONUTS?
-It looked kind of fun, but for me personally, I would rather work on more daily sketches.

Originally Posted by RalphDamiani
It would be nice if we also had a stars system, so we could motivate the artists we like or the artists that make progress, without needing to rely on the competition itself. Sometimes there are many great entries that go unrewarded because there can be only one winner for each thread.

I agree with that too- it makes it daunting when you have one really nice sketch, but several others that you think deserve some attention too

flowbot
04-19-2008, 10:38 AM
I agree with the Stars System too.
And as for time limits.. i kind of like the time limit, i think its a lot more fun WITH it than without it.
I`ve done 3 sketches for this forum now and since i had to make it in time, i did try out some stuff i usually don't do in sketches.

And as for voting i agree with the idea of having seperate winners or votes.. one for the people that made their sketches in time and one for the people that didn't.

I think of the DSF as an SKETCH Forum and not an "i'd like to produce a huge artwork"-Forum and i think it's the time limit and the ability to be able to depict an idea with only a few lines and within the time limit that makes this a fun challenge! :) And for myself, i'd rather have an unfinished piece of work in the thread which definitely doesn't make the idea or the sketch bad in my opinion! :)

I don't know if this is a good suggestion, but why not make a seperate Thread without time limit? Maybe too much work to keep them all up-to-date i suppose. I think so but i don't know :-|

Geta-Ve
04-19-2008, 03:21 PM
Guys I want to review the the rules for the Daily Sketch Forum,
and I am looking for your input.

Some ideas I am toying with are:



Should we simplify the rules?
I DO think the rules need simplifying. Or at least reviewed. There is much to the rule set that I am sure never gets read.

Should we eliminate the time limits?
Hmmm. Not quite sure about this. On one hand I love the time limits as it forces you to sketch quick, bettering your ability to take from your mind and put to paper as you wish. But on the other hand I can see how some would love the freedom to sketch as long as they want.

I would say perhaps a hybrid, keep the time limit but don't enforce it. For those that want the challenge they will stick with the time limit, but those that want to relax and just draw can go for as long as the like. Though the issue here is that the folks that draw longer than the time limit may have better results than those that don't. How to solve this dilemma? I suppose not allowing them to be up for voting is one way, but that kind sucks, then it is just like, what is the point of drawing in the first place somewhat)

I would say, while mentally reviewing what I have said and the current implementation in my head just now, an idea might be to assign a time limit for each day of the week and just keep it like that. e.g.

Monday - 55 minutes
Tuesday - 45 minutes
Wednesday - 35 minutes
Thursday - 25 minutes
Friday - 15 minutes
Saturday - No Time Limit
Sunday - No Time Limit

The idea here is that from the start of the week you are givin a long time to draw, then each day it decreases 10 minutes until you get to friday where you only have 15 minutes to draw, hectic yes but the payoff is that on the weekends you can draw as long as you wish. Like work schedules of the sort.. Weekends off! :P

This method would be good I think as people can then ALSO pick and choose which days they feel like participating. "Oh it's Thursday I guess I can spare 25 minutes for the DSG"

ETC.

Should we start closing threads 48 hours after they have been posted?
I don't quite understand the idea behind this, but I for one would be against it. I think that the threads should be closed once voting has commenced, but up until that point anyone can throw in a drawing. I think it is silly to restrict the drawing to just the one day or two days or what not.

Should we use stopwatches?
This would be hard to implement methinks. Not everyone has them, and not everyone wants to get them out and set them up. Computer clock works just fine I think. I think this rule/idea would be just too much work to keep track of and would die out fairly quickly. (in my opinion at least)

Should we do a weekly review?
This might be neat, you know, chat about all the drawing we have done during the week here, get some more community involvement going, perhaps even take the sundays out of the DSG just for review day.

I think I am FOR this idea, might be fun!

Should I do more special 3d stuff like the ONUTS?
This idea was indeed fun, but it requires more work on your part to set up, unless you had us model our own things and UV map and such, but then this would be a texturing forum. :P

While, as I said, this idea was indeed fun, I think once a month, or every few months is plausible/doable. So my short answer to this is, yes I think you should do more, just not really often.

Looking forward to your ideas and comments.
-R

To quickly talk about the points you mentioned.. (my coments are in .. pink)

Geta-Ve
04-19-2008, 03:52 PM
After having read all of the previous comments there are a few other things I wanted to say. The DSG is awesome! I love it a lot and have fun when I can participate, but I think, and this is mainly stemming from my own personal feelings, that the participant count is so low mainly because of how inconvenient it is to get a drawing posted here. While the steps and short and simple enough they all add up.

- draw the drawing
- crop/resize if too big for size limit
- upload to cgtalk account or other host
- post the image

erm.. Ok it really doesn't sound THAT hard but there is a lot of little motions you go through that aren't really neccessary to post that need to be done. What I am getting to however, is that I think what the DSG lacks OVERALL is a more integrated/streamlined way of doing things.

The voting system (as we all well know :P ) is wonky at best, needing to travel to multiple pages just to choose your pic, and there is no real orginization here.

In a perfect world a solution would be to upload directly to a DSG repository that perhaps looked something like a cgs portfolio page, all the images there for you to peruse. Voting time would simply be a matter of choosing which image you like. OR whatever.. lol

BAH, I lost my train of thought.

But the jist of all that was there needs to be more orginization. Will post more when I think about it.

EDIT: OH YA! Another idea for the voting system would be to have a simple (or is it?) Star System almost like previously mentioned, where each image could have its own 5 star rating and the image with the best rating (think something along the lines of doodlebug)

Circassian
04-19-2008, 04:53 PM
I would say, while mentally reviewing what I have said and the current implementation in my head just now, an idea might be to assign a time limit for each day of the week and just keep it like that. e.g.

Monday - 55 minutes
Tuesday - 45 minutes
Wednesday - 35 minutes
Thursday - 25 minutes
Friday - 15 minutes
Saturday - No Time Limit
Sunday - No Time Limit

The idea here is that from the start of the week you are givin a long time to draw, then each day it decreases 10 minutes until you get to friday where you only have 15 minutes to draw, hectic yes but the payoff is that on the weekends you can draw as long as you wish. Like work schedules of the sort.. Weekends off! :P

I just want to say that not everybody here has the weekend off, like me unfortunately
so It would be better not to have the time limit related to days of the week, thats just my opinion...

Another thing I can't understand, when do we start timing our sketch, I found it a bit hard To just start the sketch and just continue in such short time limit, 15 min OMG :banghead:
I just keep starting all over again, untill I get something that is ok to continue and tweak it here and there...maybe its because I just started CG sketching and I am just learning; Trial & Error,

I would be fine with any limit if I'm sketching manualy with only pencil,bw, but also because I just started to add color to my sketches, I can't stop myself going over the time limit,

In my last sketch for example I had the warming up on my sketch book, and when I got what I wanted, I started from scratch on ps without any scanned image, I know in dsf you can submit your work on any medium, but for me its the way I can learn how to do it the cg way, learn by trial and error...

Thats why starting a weekly review can give me, or anybody in my level, feedback, comments & critic, specially from winning users, the stars sytem also a good idea...
Thats what I'm thinking :lightbulb

Geta-Ve
04-19-2008, 05:42 PM
I just want to say that not everybody here has the weekend off, like me unfortunately
so It would be better not to have the time limit related to days of the week, thats just my opinion...

Another thing I can't understand, when do we start timing our sketch, I found it a bit hard To just start the sketch and just continue in such short time limit, 15 min OMG :banghead:
I just keep starting all over again, untill I get something that is ok to continue and tweak it here and there...maybe its because I just started CG sketching and I am just learning; Trial & Error,

I would be fine with any limit if I'm sketching manualy with only pencil,bw, but also because I just started to add color to my sketches, I can't stop myself going over the time limit,

In my last sketch for example I had the warming up on my sketch book, and when I got what I wanted, I started from scratch on ps without any scanned image, I know in dsf you can submit your work on any medium, but for me its the way I can learn how to do it the cg way, learn by trial and error...

Thats why starting a weekly review can give me, or anybody in my level, feedback, comments & critic, specially from winning users, the stars sytem also a good idea...
Thats what I'm thinking :lightbulb

That is the great thing about short time limits it forces you to get better, does it matter that the sketch didn't turn out how you wanted? Not at all! You may not like your results the first few times (happens to me all the time) but the more you sketch the easier it will be to put mind to paper.

After awhile you will look at a topic, and think, ok I want to do that, and bam you will just do it.

Also I sympathize with not having weekends off, but the whole point in the dedicated days IS to be able to choose when you want to participate, if you know mondays will always be XX amount of minutes you can dedicate that amount of time out of your schedule.

I would have thought that with you working weekends, no time limit would be perfect. You can take as little or as much time as you want. :shrug:

EDIT: Also I usually start timing my sketches from the moment I put pen to paper (or in my case stylus to cintiq) before that I either mentally prepare what I want or grab some reference from the net.

gahfe
04-19-2008, 09:08 PM
sorry for my english

Should we simplify the rules?
The rules are simply, but arent clear for the new users.
A new user must read a long FAQ thread to understand the control of the time limit.
I think if every post comment about the honor system, and the weekly limit would be better.
Also talk about the sketch of the week selection.

Should we eliminate the time limits?
the actual hybrid between time limits and NTL is the best system

Should we start closing threads 48 hours after they have been posted?
nonono, please no

Should we use stopwatches?
no. the honor system is great

Should we do a weekly review?
yes, but is a little complicated

Should I do more special 3d stuff like the ONUTS?
once a month is ok

would be cool a colaborative proyect, that work some lke those:

-one user post a 5 mins draw a second user take that draw and add a 5 min more.

-one user post 20px 20px and another post the other 20-20

-or trace by trace

other special topic can be some kind of game:

- one user say "i need a monkey" and the first one than draw a monkey say "i need an octopoluto beast" and something like this

again, sorry for my english

shapemaster
04-20-2008, 08:15 AM
hi ,roberto! its nice to see that u try to make the dsf better, but i have little to complain.
one thing that bothers me though is the quality of some work in here. please, i dont mean to offend anyone and i do understand that there are beginners in here, but some of those sketches really hurt to look at. i've seen several times that someone says something like "heres my sketch, time needed: 5 min!" followed by a stickman... what's that supposed to mean?! id rather brake the time limit and post some decent work than show something thats going to be ignored anyway.
i'd really appreciate it if you did some kind of quality check. thats my only complaint.
oh yeah, please no more 3d in this forum!

Geta-Ve
04-20-2008, 08:23 AM
hi ,roberto! its nice to see that u try to make the dsf better, but i have little to complain.
one thing that bothers me though is the quality of some work in here. please, i dont mean to offend anyone and i do understand that there are beginners in here, but some of those sketches really hurt to look at. i've seen several times that someone says something like "heres my sketch, time needed: 5 min!" followed by a stickman... what's that supposed to mean?! id rather brake the time limit and post some decent work than show something thats going to be ignored anyway.
i'd really appreciate it if you did some kind of quality check. thats my only complaint.
oh yeah, please no more 3d in this forum!

The point of the DSG is not to produce work that others like (though that is a good goal to work towards) the point is to get better at drawing. You say you don't mean to offend anyone but that is exactly what you mean. The fact that beginners are MORE than welcome here should tell you something.

Ugh, your post really put me off man.

shapemaster
04-20-2008, 11:06 AM
The point of the DSG is not to produce work that others like (though that is a good goal to work towards) the point is to get better at drawing. You say you don't mean to offend anyone but that is exactly what you mean. The fact that beginners are MORE than welcome here should tell you something.

Ugh, your post really put me off man.

hey, my complaint wasnt directed at beginners, but people who dont put any effort in their sketches, sorry if that was misleading. i mean, in some sketches you can clearly see it was created in a matter of seconds, even if you had more time than that ...
ok, forget what i just said. i see that this is gonna lead to nowhere and your reply only the beginning of a heated argument ... so just forget it. ill keep my thoughts because, honestly, i dont really care and you keep your answers and lets make peace ok?

RalphDamiani
04-20-2008, 01:22 PM
Oh yes, by all means get rid of the size limit. 800x600 is a very unfriendly format, at least for my pieces. Sometimes having to shrink the image loses all the carefully placed detail for pieces that have longer time limits.

SmallPoly
04-20-2008, 02:02 PM
Oh yes, by all means get rid of the size limit. 800x600 is a very unfriendly format, at least for my pieces. Sometimes having to shrink the image loses all the carefully placed detail for pieces that have longer time limits.

I'd think a good way to handle it is to stick a smaller version on the forum and provide a link to the larger version like a lot of people do with the 2D/3D showcase posts. Then again, given the nature of this forum I'd doubt most people would actually be using 800x600, or even 1024x768 for their monitor. I seem to recall websites being able to read that information so I wouldn't be surprised if CG Society recorded monitor resolution statistics.

Nekoi-chan
04-20-2008, 03:19 PM
Well this is what i think, although I don't participate much:

Should we simplify the rules?
-they are good like this

Should we eliminate the time limits?
I agree with this :
For all those claiming that time limits should be eliminated, would you mind if time limits were simply suggested and then later at the weekly review awards go to the best looking artwork made within the suggested time limit -along- with the best looking sketch?

This way everyone can join in and have a chance to win, but we don't cease to award artists that can draw good looking sketches within a time frame, which is essencial in the industry, as someone pointed out.


Should we start closing threads 48 hours after they have been posted?
-Only when the thread goes to voting.

Should we use stopwatches?
-I don't know. But sounds interesting.

Should we do a weekly review?
-Some feedback would feel good, yes.

Should I do more special 3d stuff like the ONUTS?
-I think this thread should stick to 2d.

jpedro
04-20-2008, 03:42 PM
okay, here's my two cents:

->Should we simplify the rules?

i think the rules are quite simple and it is good that every topic-thread has a short summary to kick things off.

i have to agree that the FAQ thread is probably quite messy to go through for someone who is looking for some quick answers. it's currently more of a feedback thread. imo, a FAQ thread starts with some questions and immediate short answers in the very first posting, for example like this:

--------------------------------
Q: What is the DSF?
A: The DSF( Daily Sketch Forum) is a weekly activity where CGtalk members of all levels post sketches to topics . The Goal is to give you a platform to share your sketches, keep you motivated to draw on a regular basis and to finish tasks within given time limits. in short, it's a great way to practice, improve, give and receive feedback and good fun.


Q: How are topics selected?
A: There is a thread here(link), where you can make your own suggestions for topics. The Forum leader selects the topics for each week.


Q: How do time limits work, and what are they good for?
A: Every topic has a time limit. The goal is for you to learn to finish work within a given timeframe as is often required in a real job. it will also help you to get quicker and give you an idea of how long it really takes you to finish a piece from the very sketchy, to more polished, to "it's finallyfinished" stages of your work.
if you reach the time limit, save your work and post that version. if you feel inclined to spend more time on it, then go ahead. you can then post that version as well along with info on how much more time you invested.


Q: Other than that, what's in it for me?
A: If that isn't enough, a winner will be chosen each week by poll whose sketch will be put on the front page.

....and so on and so forth....
-----------------------------------------------


-> Should we eliminate the time limits?

No, i think they are good( see my suggested FAQ answer).

-> Should we use stopwatches?

i would also have to ask if you had anyhing specific in mind?...to me it's enough to look at the CPU watch when i start and try and finish it within the limits. 5 minutes give or take doesnt really matter. if you forget time and noodle on for 20 minutes or even longer(happens, i know best...which is another "pro timelimit argument" imo), i may post it anyway but will say so as well. i don't expect the sketch to be considered for voting then either.

->Should we do a weekly review?
No, i would simply encourage more feedback and crits in the respective threads. keeps the things together better.

->Should I do more special 3d stuff like the ONUTS?
i would prefer to keep this section 2d. maybe some character sheet topics and character turnarounds would be cool though, which some of the 3d guys can then go ahead and model.

okay, that's it. thanks for putting in the time Roberto!

best wishes,

Jan


edit, forgot this one:
- Should we start closing threads 48 hours after they have been posted?

no. like many others here i also have to say that it's good to have the opportunity to do sth. when the time is fitting, and often times it'll fit best on a week end. it would be a shame if good topics slip through your fingers because of a quicker closing.

Geta-Ve
04-20-2008, 05:46 PM
hey, my complaint wasnt directed at beginners, but people who dont put any effort in their sketches, sorry if that was misleading. i mean, in some sketches you can clearly see it was created in a matter of seconds, even if you had more time than that ...
ok, forget what i just said. i see that this is gonna lead to nowhere and your reply only the beginning of a heated argument ... so just forget it. ill keep my thoughts because, honestly, i dont really care and you keep your answers and lets make peace ok?

Fair enough. And to be doubley fair I do actually understand what you are saying, it is just, at those times when you see pieces that aren't as good as others, simply ignore them. No one is really forcing you to comment and or vote on them so no biggy right? :P

Anyhow, my apologies for my heated reply.

sketchius
04-20-2008, 11:43 PM
Should we simplify the rules?
I think the rules are fine as they are now.
Should we eliminate the time limits?
No. I think the time limit is great. It provides a good challenge in that we have to come up with the concept and composition quickly. Without time limits sketchs go more into the realm of resolved works.
Should we start closing threads 48 hours after they have been posted?
Personally, I'm busy during weekday nights a lot of the time, so it's nice to be able to catch up on the weekends.

NGVertigo
04-21-2008, 12:34 AM
I've rubbed two cents together and now you've incured the wrath of my infernal blathering... grab a coffee if you wanna brave this. :P


* Should we simplify the rules?

Most people have said there's no need to change rules, a few at least have said they could be simplified. I'll put more about this at the end of this post to see if some rules can be adapted to these new ideas.


* Should we eliminate the time limits?

No, do not eliminate the time limits. I'm finding most people are deterred by the time limits in that it's too restraining for them to finish their work, it puts pressure on people when comparing what people can do in a certain amount of time, or it seems like a contest.

This time limit challenge is more for ones self then it is against others, I believe. You should see what you get done in the time limit and if you have additional time and like where it's going, finish it out. I'm more interested when I get to see people who have something finished at the time limit along with what they feel is the finished piece too. I like seeing the comparison between them.

One should not feel deterred because it's restraining. We're creative people, limits are challenges we thrive upon. If we're told we get 3 things, we tend to rattle off 27 diffeernt ways to make them into something interesting.

Comparing what each other can do, in say for example 45 minutes, is rather silly as we all vary in skill and background. I've never felt this to be any contest. Contests mean you win something. The voting is a novel concept, nothing more. There's no criteria and the only things people go by is whether it was in the time line and if they like it on a personal level. Really, it strikes me as more of a popularity thing.

flowbot said it, and I agree with it:
I think of the DSF as an SKETCH Forum and not an "i'd like to produce a huge artwork"-Forum and i think it's the time limit and the ability to be able to depict an idea with only a few lines and within the time limit that makes this a fun challenge! And for myself, i'd rather have an unfinished piece of work in the thread which definitely doesn't make the idea or the sketch bad in my opinion!

I think people are taking this already suggestive notion out of whack and it needs to be reminded it's for fun and a personal challenge. Relax, we're just doodling and bouncing things back and forth here. :)

So for those that haven't tried it under the time limit, try it out. I'm really interested in what people try to accomplish with something like that.


* Should we start closing threads 48 hours after they have been posted?

Lot of people seem to think that they're schedules vary too much to do this. My personal opinion, 3 days. I think it's reasonable to do it within three days.

It'd work for me because I check every morning. I've got a folder of bookmarked websites I check out whilst I have my nerve juice aka coffee.

Some people suggested things like leaving a thread open for a week... All of them? What about threads that happen on Friday or Saturday? They have 'til the following to accept sketches? That'd delay the voting thread even longer. Even my three day idea overlaps on this, I know. But even still, I think there should be a stipulation like this. It'll motivate the willing even more.


* Should we use stopwatches?

How would this be any different from basically being honorable and showing when you stopped and showed your work on the alotted time? If there's a means to accurately prove we've abided by time limits and stop watches, by all means, I'd like to know.

This sounds to me more like an idea for someone to personally challenge themselves. Which is a good thing too. But as a means to prove it to others, I don't see it any different then the honor system.


* Should we do a weekly review?

This is too simple a question. of what? The top voted? ALL the sketches in a week? whew, have fun. Now, if we're talking feedback or more critiques, that's not a bad idea, but it wouldn't be much to critique since these are just sketches. Wouldn't critiquing sketches be like... giving a toddler a college entrance exam or something? Barely born and possibly harshly evaluated? This is one notion.

I'm not sure what a weekly review would mean. I guess if you made a seperate thread and said "Here, post your sketches from this week if you want review or critique"... That could work. But, still... poor lil' toddlers.

"It would be nice if we also had a stars system, so we could motivate the artists we like or the artists that make progress, without needing to rely on the competition itself. Sometimes there are many great entries that go unrewarded because there can be only one winner for each thread."

I like this idea. This goes along with more personal critiquing from individual artist to artist. Do like a 5 star system or something. It'd be nice if you could have a module on the member's post that could track this, but that might be too complex.

I think the only thing that jarrs a rating system is people's ability to discern quality of skill over personal preference would be a bigger issue. Hypothetical situation: People say something sucks for example. Why? 'cause the artists erred on a couple of shadows? or 'cause they didn't like that person's style at all? It just doesn't move them... Get what I mean?


* Should I do more special 3d stuff like the ONUTS?

These are sketches and for sketching. Not saying challenges can't cris-cross amongst the different challenge forums, that's fun to do. But I think it should be categorized better. The ONUTS thing was more of a texture painter challenge then a sketch one, at best.

But some have mentioned some great challenges that go outside the box and can still be fun and work in this forum.

jpedro suggested character sheets and character turnarounds. Even character packs. This is more advanced then sketching, though, but it's still in the realm of fleshing out an idea to a more rendered visualized idea. and of course, it can lead to other 2D or 3D challenges in other forums.

Gahfe had some great ideas, I believe:

-Doing a thread where every user posts 5 minutes of work on the same sketch. Let's set up an example.

1) A new "topic" thread is made. topics in this thread would be posted as quick 5 minute sketches.
2) Rob would choose a topic sketch and post it in a new thread for the challenge.
3) members would post saying they want to do it first and not post any images yet. This gets an order of "who does what" established.
4) the first member saves the image, does 5 minutes of sketching to the "topic" sketch, then reposts it.
5) The member who posted dibs next will take the image modified by the member before them and add their 5 minutes.
6) Let this go on 'til say... 11 members have posted or a week has gone by.

You now have a thread showing a starting concept by one artist followed by a progression of other artists and the end result on display.

-one user post 20px 20px and another post the other 20-20

... Artist Checkers, anyone? :D I think you could do something similar to what I suggested to the 5 minute concept. Same formula, just fill in a square. If you had 11 more members complete the original suggestion, you'd have a nice 3 by 4 checkers image, maybe...

-or trace by trace
While I could improvise on that, I'm not quite sure what he meant. But I'm interested.

- one user say "i need a monkey" and the first one than draw a monkey say "i need an octopoluto beast" and something like this

This strikes me as a more independent challenge amongst artists. This is asked of from different members, not necessarily issued by the Forum Moderator. Unless Rob gives all the suggestions and that might be a bit much.


* Some Additional ideas...

- Perhaps make a seperate threads/forums for people who want to take a sketch to the finished stages of a painting or piece of art. People seem to think there's a need to finish and polish a lot. So either make it clear there's a place for polished work and a place for sketch/rough work, or just call it the 2D challenge forum.

- Make sections for the current threads this week. I've seen forums on other sites and even when listing the threads, they still have title bars to break them up if you want to organize them. Could this be brought in?

- Insert the Date in numeral order, possibly year/month/day, at the beginning of a thread name. I'd feel it'd be easier to sort out what thread's what if I could see that better. The forum defaults things to Last Post Time, so it takes a lot to sift through to find what you were following. That and if you were sorting by Thread title, numbers would show first, you'd have the most current challenges up front.

Here's a sample from another thread I copied the rules from.

You have ##mn for your sketch. IF you go beyond the assigned time limit , you have to post WHATEVER you have done after the time has expired, along with the FINAL drawing.

* Post only your FINAL piece on this thread, based on the topic on the thread.
* Only final pieces can be posted on the thread. They must have been done AFTER the topic has been announced.
* RESOLUTION : The image can have any aspect ratio up to 800 x 600
* They can be done on any medium.
* If you wish, you can add a brief text description about your piece.
* Only original compositions. No "tributes" or plagiarizing, unless is it an integral part of the challenge.
* You can post an entry at anytime for the topic presented on this thead BEFORE the voting thread for THE WEEK has been posted.
* The artist also has to post total length of time it took and program used.
* Any piece caught breaking the rules will be taken off the thread.
* The topics will be picked at random from the list on the TOPICS thread >>LINK<<
(The author will be given credit). So guys keep them coming

Here's a revised idea of the rules:

* You have ##mn for your sketch.
* They must have been done AFTER the topic has been announced.
* Only sketches within the time limit can be posted here.
* Final work is to be posted here (and make a link to the final piece of current topic thread)
* RESOLUTION : The image can have any aspect ratio up to 800 x 600 or a thumbnail linked to the actual image.
* They can be done on any medium.
* If you wish, you can add a brief text description about your piece.
* Please state if you wish feedback or critique and if you want to be rated.
* Only original compositions. No "tributes" or plagiarizing, unless is it an integral part of the challenge.
* You have 3 days before thread is closed and to be voted on.
* The artist also has to post total length of time it took and program used.
* Any piece caught breaking the rules will be taken off the thread.
* The topics will be picked at random from the list on the TOPICS thread >>LINK<<

Okay, time for tea... please, tear this a new one. I rambled a lot. I'd feel hurt if no one blathered back. :D

sketchius
04-21-2008, 01:57 AM
I agree with NGVertigo. I don't think this should be a forum based around competition or even producing quality art work. It should be able growing as individual artists and also trying to help each other grow.

As far as the time limits go, I encourage you all to ask yourself this: Will I learn more from trying to visualize an idea within X minutes, or will I learn more from taking a sketch to completition? For me, I feel like I am improving more when I have a time constraint because it forces me to prioritize the parts of the sketch... I mean, isn't that the point of a sketch--To lay a solid foundation for a longer piece? You may not always going to have two or three hours to sketch something out. Working within a time-limit teaches you to integrate adaptation into your process where you work a concept from the general to the specific, revising when needed.

Anyway, maybe the voting thing isn't so great of an idea because it turns this into too much of a competition (although it's cool to see the sketch of the week on the front page to encourage people to participate here). A couple people brought up the idea of just having a 'suggested time limit'--I think that would be cool, but it might be tricky to work it into the voting.

Also here's an idea more in terms of the basic format. What if once in a while, instead of working off of a small phrase, we're given a full paragraph describing a scene or a character, and we try to get it as accurate as possible to the text. On one hand I love how we have it now where the meaning of the theme is open to interpretation, but on the other hand it I think it would be cool to try to adhere to a more specific concept. Seems like some of the threads are kind of like this but maybe it could be pushed further.

Another idea, on some threads there could be some (optional?) restrictions like black & white only, line only, limited pallete, etc. Seems like it can be helpful to try and work under rescricted conditions or to try on a new style of working.

Geta-Ve
04-21-2008, 06:29 AM
Another idea, on some threads there could be some (optional?) restrictions like black & white only, line only, limited pallete, etc. Seems like it can be helpful to try and work under rescricted conditions or to try on a new style of working.

I very much like this idea. This could even be in place of the NO TIME LIMIT threads. It would be like sure you don't have a time limit, but you can only use these 8 colors, or what not.

RobertoOrtiz
04-21-2008, 04:58 PM
Memorial-Strife (http://forums.cgsociety.org/member.php?u=323406)

The rules are fine, they look pretty simple to me already.

The time limits are ok, they help you improve your speed in my opinion.

No, don't close the threads 48 hours after, some people may not have time to draw in that period, they may be busy. It's better if they closed after 1 week

stopwatches, I really don't understand what that is.

A weekly review. You mean like posting all the drawings that have been done in the week in one thread? sure, why not.

The 3d stuff would be cool.


Nekoi-chan (http://forums.cgsociety.org/member.php?u=148391)
[/url]



Should we simplify the rules?
They are simple as it is.
Should we eliminate the time limits?
No.
Should we start closing threads 48 hours after they have been posted?
only when the voting thread is posted.
Should we use stopwatches?
It could be interesting.
Should we do a weekly review?
That would be nice.
Should I do more special 3d stuff like the ONUTS?
I think we should stick to 2d.
[url="http://forums.cgsociety.org/member.php?u=137507"]RockstarKate (http://forums.cgsociety.org/member.php?u=148391)

I haven't participated too much, but I would like to more often.

Should we simplify the rules? Rules seem fine.
Should we eliminate the time limits? I like the mix of short and long time limits.
Should we start closing threads 48 hours after they have been posted? Close when voting begins
Should we use stopwatches? What is meant by that exactly?
Should we do a weekly review? Could be cool.
Should I do more special 3d stuff like the ONUTS? Yes.
My main comment would be to simplify the voting. I know you've had something in the works for a long time, but honestly what stops me from participating more often is how annoying and time consuming it is to vote. Wouldn't it be possible to just have a vote at the end of each thread and then have a vote by a poll for the sketch of the week? I don't know if that's the best idea, but there has to be some way to streamline the process.

ysvry
04-26-2008, 04:22 AM
time limit stays , thats the fun part seeing if you can do something meaningfull in a short time. people who are slowpoke sketchers just can say they didnt make the time and still send theire work in.
keep threads open as im not checking the ds every day or even weeks. I sometimes like to draw as much challenges as fast as possible, i saw that pisses off some people cause they think i didnt try my best, well I sometimes need a harder challenge i just do it for my own fun. all drawings doesnt need to be fotorealistic to be good an original ideer also goes a large way.
as much as there are artist there are tastes and styles. Why i didnt draw so much was that i didnt like the gothic (were so into death and fake romantism) themes. try to choose some more open ones. that people can interpret in many ways.
A niceaddition might be that people can use other mediums like fotos 3d renders etc as long as its theire own products and done within the time limit. just my 2 cnts.

keep up the good work.

Zeoyn
05-04-2008, 10:19 PM
Should we simplify the rules? I guess the rules are pretty simple
Should we eliminate the time limits? No, if one wants to evolve as an artist should take this as a challenge.
Should we start closing threads 48 hours after they have been posted? No, I think one should be able to post until the voting starts. At that point the thread should be locked.
Should we use stopwatches? Not important. If there is anyone interested in faking their time, than it is possible to deceive the stopwatch. So it is better to trust people.
Should we do a weekly review? I guess all the comments should be made inside the threads. That way it will be clearer for everyone. I also think that commenting should be encouraged.
Should I do more special 3d stuff like the ONUTS? As long as it is not happening everyday, some experiences might be interesting and fun for everyone.
Another point: How can we encourage people to vote? There are a lot of people commenting on this questions but only a few are voting. It is really sad when a Sketch of the Week is decided by only 5 people with 2 votes... VOTE! VOTE! :bounce:

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