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View Full Version : REDRAY player plays back 4K on regular DVD!


Ivan D Young
04-19-2008, 07:30 AM
This has not gotten more attention, This is probably the biggest story from NAB that no one is talking about. RED, the company of RED camera fame, are releasing in early 2009 a player that will have 4K and 2K output to displays from SD to 4K, ON regular 9gb DVD! The player will also down rez from 4K all the way down to 1080p, so if you don't have a Sony 4K projector just use your 1080p Set.
That is incredible if they can actually get it to work. If you are not aware of the RED camera and what they have done in the last two years with that, then this will sound like black magic to the uninformed. Their cameras can shoot 4K and 2K all digital files, the big draw back is there is not a player that can playback 2k and 4K files, without going proprietary. So they are going to create their own player, this will intersting to watch. This has huge implications for the film and media industries at large and no one caught on, wow!
here is the link to website.
http://www.red.com/nab/redray
http://www.red.com/

R10k
04-19-2008, 07:54 AM
Plus, it also looks cool ;)

This sounds very interesting indeed...

sujoystick
04-19-2008, 09:35 AM
I like the disclaimer at the bottom "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone with a bad attitude" :-P

noouch
04-19-2008, 10:14 AM
I guess we'll have to wait until after NAB to get more detailed information about this?

P_T
04-19-2008, 10:55 AM
Unless the price is comparable to bluray with good library of films, I don't see it taking off, so I guess we'll see until there's more info on this player.

The thing is, after 1080p, I see a diminishing return in the value of higher resolution for the average consumers. If that's the case, the 4k res contained in the dvd is redundant and I personally wouldn't wanna pay extra (IF I do have to pay extra), for something I'll probably never see.

However, if it does take off, this would probably put physical media on the forefront again.

I just wonder if and how they will try to take on Sony which would already have saturated the market with PS3 even more by next year, my guess is, it will only be a niche product for the privileged few.

Ivan D Young
04-19-2008, 03:56 PM
This is not to take on Sony in the consumer market per se. The player is going to cost somewhere near the $1,000 mark, but is intended for the playback of the 2K and 4K content being shot with the Red Cameras. The other posibility with this is that, a small theather could use this player to connect to a 2K or 4K projector and play large content at a significant cost savings on equipment. As far as general content, other HiDef content would have to be converted into whatever Red and their REDRAY player are using to get any benefit out of this. I don't see the genral public swithcing to this any time soon. But for anyone who has access to Red footage like, filmmakers, VFX houses, presentation media, conventions, corporate, and maybe very high end home users this will be huge. Red has not said whether they will open up their format to more people and third party users, so we will have to wait and see I guess. If they did then maybe Sony could be in trouble maybe in 2-3 years though. What is interesting is that in the coming months Adobe and Avid and a couple of other companies will start to process Red Footage natively (R3D format) so maybe the ability to author for this REDRAY could be wide spread. Wait and see.

Per-Anders
04-19-2008, 11:20 PM
OK, but no-one seems to be answering (or asking) the question of how much 1080i/p video with uncompressed audio you can expect to play back from a 9gb dvd? (given that normal consumer burnable DVD's are only single layer, i.e. 4.7gb)? Because there are plenty of formats out there that can play 1080p or higher res, and putting such formats onto a DVD and reading them (and outputting to DVI etc) isn't that huge of a problem, but if they're managing to put a full 120+ minutes film length on there in 1080p with acceptably few compression artifacts then that's really quite something, otherwise maybe I'm missing the furour?

cavekid
04-20-2008, 01:52 AM
I don't know the exact storage for a dual layer dvd, but here is the general rule of thumb for storage on an 8GB flash card in RED, it can hold around 6 minutes of 4K footage and 20 minutes of 2K footage, ...that is in its Redcode RAW format.

I can see a lot of you scratching your heads and going "well thats useless", ...but for those of us doing vfx at 4k, it will be very sweet to project 'one to one' our dailies (to check matte lines, roto work, etc), ..well, if we can afford a 4k projector that is, ...at the moment theres not many options there (and expensive is the word that leaps to mind), ...but again, having a relatively cheap (if you can call $1k that) playback device could get projector and screen manufacturers more interested in higher rez displays.

As has already been said, it is not a consumer aimed product, it is aimed at those working with 4k footage, for 1080 there are other options.

earlyworm
04-20-2008, 08:08 AM
The likely scenario for 2 hours of 4K playback on a DVD dual layer disc is that it'll be compressed along the lines of H264, MPEG4, DivX, Xvid etc. Assuming a audio stream encoded @ 256 kb/s, then that's 9013 kb/s (1126 KB/s) needed for encoding a 4K image.

Incidentally my 1K reel (1024x576) encoded at around 17,000 kb/s using H.264 exhibits quite a bit of compression artifacts. Be interesting to see how they can get 4K into less, or maybe my compression settings where finely tuned enough.

Saturn
04-20-2008, 09:36 AM
Guys you missed the point it's not for standard costumer like you and me but more for studios.....

Don't expect to have this in your living room

Per-Anders
04-20-2008, 05:32 PM
I don't know the exact storage for a dual layer dvd, but here is the general rule of thumb for storage on an 8GB flash card in RED, it can hold around 6 minutes of 4K footage and 20 minutes of 2K footage, ...that is in its Redcode RAW format.

I can see a lot of you scratching your heads and going "well thats useless", ...but for those of us doing vfx at 4k, it will be very sweet to project 'one to one' our dailies (to check matte lines, roto work, etc), ..well, if we can afford a 4k projector that is, ...at the moment theres not many options there (and expensive is the word that leaps to mind), ...but again, having a relatively cheap (if you can call $1k that) playback device could get projector and screen manufacturers more interested in higher rez displays.

As has already been said, it is not a consumer aimed product, it is aimed at those working with 4k footage, for 1080 there are other options.

Ah OK, yes I can see that, but I guess the name RedRay just inferred the idea that they may be using some technology to get more data onto a DVD (which would have been something to get excited over for non RED camera users), but I guess it's just a jokey nod to BluRay then.

earlyworm
04-20-2008, 10:41 PM
Well I can understand it's use as a playback device for dailies and the like, but it's the 2 hours of 4K on a dual layer DVD that is odd, that suggests to me they're looking at a system for distribution of 4K material in cinemas.

So it's maybe not something that consumers will buy, but something consumers will see films on. Although I think by the time of it's release the original spec will have changed quite a bit and this aspect of the device might not even make it to release.

Sidenote - Are there any graphics cards capable of 4K? If you could playback from a computer at 4K, then why would you need this device?

Oh well, that's enough meaningless speculation from me.

Syndicate
04-21-2008, 06:23 AM
From what I know you would need a nice RAID setup to play (and scrub) 4K video on a machine these days. Remember that RED RAW contains a LOT of data. We arent just talking 29.97 fps H264 here... we are talking 120 fps of uncompressed 4k video!! :D

Bear in mind it doesnt say that you can do 120fps (yet.. as features are subject to change) but with the MysteriumX processor I'm pretty sure that will be possible.

What would be cool is if the player was able to generate a proxy feed (actually I think you can do this... set 1080p mode instead of 4k) that you could feed into a blackmagic card... capture that into Finalcut or whatever.... then tell final cut to read the 4K data directly from the drive when you are rendering. This would allow you to use your HD's (RAID etc) for the actual recording of the output instead of read/write 4K at the same time.

This would essentially be the best workflow. There are obviously times when you need those extra pixels for some hard core plates, but the ability to play back the footage at varying resolutions (at required fps) is amazing.

Im still set on Scarlet so this drive might come in handy.

my 2c.

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