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HDhead
04-14-2008, 07:21 PM
The time of (very large) plates is here. RED EPIC camer (http://www.hdhead.com/?p=142)a (http://www.hdhead.com/?p=142) just shown today for the first time at NAB shoots at 5k! They also showed a smaller Scarlet which is a 3k camera.

ingramworks
04-14-2008, 07:33 PM
Wow, and here we are all ready and excited to get out Red One finally, and here comes 5k. 'Course, no use for what we do, yet, but damn those will be some big files. We're a lot more interested in the Scarlett, very interested in seeing what those will be all about.

EDIT: Finally saw the early specs on the Red website, and the Epic certainly does look epic, and seems to start at around $40k from what I'm starting to hear. Although you will be able to get a full value trad on a Red One when they come out. But that Scarlet just blows my mind. Hearing it will be under $3k but be able to shoot up to 3k and near the same quality as the Red One.

Dias
04-14-2008, 09:13 PM
I wonder how much HDs 60 seconds @5k in RAW format take... :D

Anyway it must be a lovely resolutions to work with in compositing. :bounce:

Venkman
04-14-2008, 09:22 PM
I just had to do a green screen with an old interlaced (eeeeew!) DV cam. But this camera makes me drool! WOWZERS!

Syndicate
04-14-2008, 11:25 PM
For those wondering about the fixed lens problem with scarlet....

http://www.cinevate.com/website/index.php

Brevis adapter can give you a lot of flexibility. For me, I was GOING to buy a HV30, but now I'll just save the extra cash and buy the scarlet when it comes out.

Scarlet should have more features/refinements by release anyway.

I couldnt sleep until this announcement was made haha.

beaker
04-14-2008, 11:45 PM
I wonder how much HDs 60 seconds @5k in RAW format take... :DRoughly 6 gigs.

beaker
04-14-2008, 11:47 PM
For those wondering about the fixed lens problem with scarlet....

http://www.cinevate.com/website/index.php

Brevis adapter can give you a lot of flexibility. For me, I was GOING to buy a HV30, but now I'll just save the extra cash and buy the scarlet when it comes out.Remember that the priority of preorders will be given by current Red owners. So you may not even be able to get the camera for another 2 years.

Dias
04-15-2008, 06:39 AM
Roughly 6 gigs.

6144MB / (60s*30fps) = 3.4Mb per frame for 5k RAW format?

Are you sure?

My Nikon D70 take around 5Mb in RAW for 3k*2k photo.

beaker
04-15-2008, 07:07 AM
Yes. It says on the page that Epic is 100MB/s. Currently Redcode raw for the Red One at 4k is 28-32 MB/s.

Andrew Howe
04-15-2008, 09:50 PM
Maybe I'm beeing a bit n00bish here, but what use is a 5k camera really?

From what I know 4k is more than sufficient for cinema. Sure, 5k would be good for real high-end stuff like IMAX and whatnot, but for all practical purposes, do we really need cameras to record at any higher resolutions? Apart from the obvious penis envy and all that, of course.

beaker
04-15-2008, 10:14 PM
The big reason is that it gives you breathing room. S35 is a good example. A large percentage of films are shot on S35 but crop everything to 1.85 or 2.35 even though the medium is 4:3. Also in film if we need to do a push in or crop you just scan it at a higher resolution(4-8k). With digital you can't do any of this without severly softening the plate.

The other nice thing is that it looks like Red is positioning this as a higher end camera for vfx since it has a higher data rate so the raw data isn't compressed as much.

timsep
04-15-2008, 10:18 PM
Hey all! well here's my beef with this whole 4k, 5k res stuff. Right now I'm workin with footage shot on the Red cam, the problem lies with the fact that we are flying between pc and mac on this this project, so we chose to go to .tiff's so everyone can read the files, no issues. The fun part is that the footage is easily eating up 2 750gb hard-drives, and were talking about 50mb a piece per tiff images. Sure the stuff looks amazing, but hell, I can barely work on HD footage in After effects with out it getting slow, this is just nuts! Unless a compositing package comes out that handles this stuff better I have no clue what I can do.

cavekid
04-15-2008, 10:19 PM
I'm looking forward to Scarlet too, ...but here's hoping the build quality is a little better than RED1 and that they revise the sensors so they have a universal shutter rather than the nasty rolling shutter system, ...don't get me wrong, RED1 has some nice footage, its has great dynamic range (we've used it mixed in with 35mm and you can't tell the difference, plus it pulls a sweet key), and their rolling shutter seems less extreme than other CMOS based cameras, ....but man, its a pain when you're trying to matchmove somthing into a shot (plus all the vertical lines in your shot become diagonal).

Will be interesting to see what Sony, Panasonic, Canon and JVC do now RED are looking to kick arse in their markets. Some exciting cameras for better price points ahead I'm picking. :)

beaker
04-15-2008, 10:44 PM
The fun part is that the footage is easily eating up 2 750gb hard-drives, and were talking about 50mb a piece per tiff images.You should look at using compressed tiffs with lzw compression or exr. It will bring the files closer to 25-28 meg a frame.

yenvalmar
04-16-2008, 01:24 AM
Hey all! well here's my beef with this whole 4k, 5k res stuff. Right now I'm workin with footage shot on the Red cam, the problem lies with the fact that we are flying between pc and mac on this this project, so we chose to go to .tiff's so everyone can read the files, no issues. The fun part is that the footage is easily eating up 2 750gb hard-drives, and were talking about 50mb a piece per tiff images. Sure the stuff looks amazing, but hell, I can barely work on HD footage in After effects with out it getting slow, this is just nuts! Unless a compositing package comes out that handles this stuff better I have no clue what I can do.

thats what i been doing anyhow.

Daniel-B
04-16-2008, 04:53 AM
Maybe I'm beeing a bit n00bish here, but what use is a 5k camera really?

From what I know 4k is more than sufficient for cinema. Sure, 5k would be good for real high-end stuff like IMAX and whatnot, but for all practical purposes, do we really need cameras to record at any higher resolutions? Apart from the obvious penis envy and all that, of course.

Also, with the bayer filtering going on in the camera, 5k really is only a bit more res than 4k. I don't know the specifics, but 5k isn't really 5000 lines of resolution, but closer to 4 due to bayer filtering. Yes, the image is 5000 pixels wide, but I'm talking about actual resolving power of the camera.

HDhead
04-17-2008, 06:41 AM
Also, with the bayer filtering going on in the camera, 5k really is only a bit more res than 4k. I don't know the specifics, but 5k isn't really 5000 lines of resolution, but closer to 4 due to bayer filtering. Yes, the image is 5000 pixels wide, but I'm talking about actual resolving power of the camera.

That's a valid point. There was a very good discussion regarding this issue several months back. I forgot where I read it but if I run into it I'll post a link. The conclusion was that the truth is a little fuzzy. It's true that the method of determining picture resolution by counting discreet pixels doesn't apply to Bayer pattern but it's not as black and white as one may think.

HDhead
04-17-2008, 06:47 AM
Hey all! well here's my beef with this whole 4k, 5k res stuff. Right now I'm workin with footage shot on the Red cam, the problem lies with the fact that we are flying between pc and mac on this this project, so we chose to go to .tiff's so everyone can read the files, no issues. The fun part is that the footage is easily eating up 2 750gb hard-drives, and were talking about 50mb a piece per tiff images. Sure the stuff looks amazing, but hell, I can barely work on HD footage in After effects with out it getting slow, this is just nuts! Unless a compositing package comes out that handles this stuff better I have no clue what I can do.

I would guess you are converting R3D files to 16 bit linear tiff files in RedCine. Your files will be smaller if you use 10 bit log DPX files.

It's not really that AE can't handle it. It's that the computer is having a hard time moving these large files and rendering at that size. It can get slow but rememember that not that long ago working at 2k on a desktop machine was unthinkable.

aglick
04-17-2008, 08:25 PM
I just got back from the show and spent ALOT of time with RED guys - employees, camera owners and post facilities who have been posting and doing DI on RED projects.

My takeaway from the folks I spoke with is this: the main reason for developing a 5K sensor is to acheive more vertical resolution for DP's who want to shoot with 2:1.0 anamorphic lenses.


PS - check out our new redBOXX (http://www.boxxtech.com/).

Adam
BOXXlabs

HDhead
04-18-2008, 06:14 PM
My takeaway from the folks I spoke with is this: the main reason for developing a 5K sensor is to acheive more vertical resolution for DP's who want to shoot with 2:1.0 anamorphic lenses.


That's interesting. Did you watch the Sodebergh's 2.40 shots in the 4K theater behind the booth? It still looked very good although much of the imager is cropped out for that aspect ratio. Not having anamorphic lense distortion in out of focus elements was great but odd because we're all used to it.

aglick
04-18-2008, 11:07 PM
yeah, i went through and watched it a coupl eof times... ;)

I can see how an extra several hundred (give or take) lines (errr pixels) of sensor resolution would make poeple happy if they were shooting 2.40 or simmiliar...

Ivan D Young
04-19-2008, 07:16 AM
Actually the new cameras are great news, but the bigest piece of news that has not go more attention is the RedRay Player, 4K playback on a 9gb DVD, yes that is a regular DVD. With 1080p downsizing from 2K and 4K to TV, HDTV, and Projectors, now that is freaking news.

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04-19-2008, 07:16 AM
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