CGTalk - A question for the professionals : Mac or PC?

Lordstormdragon

04-16-2008, 01:46 AM

...because of one simple concept: cost factor.

The only studios I know of that (for certain) use Macs in production are the crews working on low-budget cartoons, such as South Park or Adult Swim cartoons from Cartoon Network. The quality of animation in South Park is intentionally low-budget, obviously, although this does't affect South Park's status as the Greatest Cartoon on Earth, of course.

But big studios would be foolhardy to aquire or use Macs in their pipelines. The reason schools have Macs is the same as it was in the early 80's: Apple gives them special financing in the hopes that teaching Apples to youngsters will make them "Mac 4 Life" people.

The same math holds true now as it does then. In 1984:

Commodore 64
64KB RAM
1MHz processor
$300

Apple II
48KB RAM
1MHz processor
$2400

Nothing has really changed for Apple. They use inferior hardware and have a preposterous markup involved. Today, you can equal a Mac Pro's power for a similar fraction of the cost using other hardware, and most big studios know this because they know how to do basic math, or if they don't then they hire accountants who know basic math.

So any studio purchasing 100 Macs would be at an instant eight-fold disadvantage to any other studio using non-proprietary computers. AMD or Intel, Nvidia or ATI, it doesn't matter really. When it comes to financing, a studio could use non-Apple computers and pay for their workers salaries based on this difference alone. In turn, Apple-using studios would have to either cut wages for their employees to make up the difference or somehow be more productive or effective, which a non-Apple company could also do anyway. Anyone actually researching the issue scientifically would come to the same conclusion : Macs aren't worth the ridiculous and fabled Apple markup. There is no quality gain, no production benefit for spending more money for no reason other than to have an Apple logo on your system.

When it comes to software, Final Cut Pro gained it's popularity for one simple reason : they put "pro" in the title. Adobe doesn't care about such marketing gimmicks, they just make excellent cross-platform titles which rock. Premiere and After-Effects have powered teleivision and movies for years behind the scenes, and almost every show, movie, or commercial you've ever seen went through one of these. Final Cut Pro brings nothing new to the table except the ease-of-use which is common ground for Mac users, which can be interpreted as being a wonderful thing, but which in reality means that they have to dumb things down considerable to cater to the non-technical average Mac user.

I'd have to agree with your girlfriend on this one. She should have no problem building a powerful workstation for a fraction of the cost of one single Mac. AMD and Intel both make solutions to do so from the processor end, and the GPU war between ATI and Nvidia only helps prices drop in the long run.

Tagger

04-16-2008, 11:23 AM

When it comes to software, Final Cut Pro gained it's popularity for one simple reason : they put "pro" in the title.

HA! you're so funny! ... unfortniatly you're talking out of your **s :)
hell, i use pc's and mac's all the time and i don't have any preference for one or the other but the stuff you say is way out of proportion

and btw. do you know howmuch a mac costs compaired to a decent workstation? you talk like macs cost 50x more then pc's (get your head out of the 90s) while the price of a decent mac and a decent pc are well compairable and deffinatly not to a point where a company will have to pay their staff breadcrumbs, if that were the case every graphics and audio company in the world would be broke.

Lordstormdragon

04-16-2008, 06:08 PM

... I won't tolerate personal attacks. And I never said anything about Macs costing fifty times more than a non-proprietary computer, the number I gave was eight. I also don't take insults seriously from someone who can't even form a complete sentence.

The question was about professional Mac use, not personal opinions.

earlyworm

04-17-2008, 01:15 AM

When it comes to software, Final Cut Pro gained it's popularity for one simple reason : they put "pro" in the title. Adobe doesn't care about such marketing gimmicks, they just make excellent cross-platform titles which rock. Premiere and After-Effects have powered teleivision and movies for years behind the scenes, and almost every show, movie, or commercial you've ever seen went through one of these.

I doubt it gained popularity purely based on putting 'pro' in the title. I'm under the impression that Premiere's marketshare in the world of professional NLE is quite a bit less than Avid and Final Cut. I can name a number of films that never saw a single copy of either Premiere or After Effects (now that's not to discredit them as tools, just to point out your over-exageration is quite large).

Sorry I can't be more helpful on the original question Saiato, but it's not really as straight forward as "Apple Mac's are used in the media industry because they're better at graphics and stuff", because often times a Mac may not be the best/better tool for the job.

Maybe once your girlfriends knows more about what she needs the workstation to do then that might help the decision, as Premiere or Final Cut may have certain pros or cons when working in different types of situations. And while I personally don't think it'll affect her chances of finding work or getting the job done, I sure there are many producers and potential clients out there with "Macs equal better at graphics and stuff" floating around in there head.

timothyc

04-17-2008, 05:57 AM

Hi Saiato

I see you are based in the US. It's true. Macs are practically universal in the film industry. (From your post I take it your girfriend is studying Film Production in general, not anything to do with 3D animation or VFX.)

IOW, computer use is more about word processing, spreadsheets and databases. There are alot of specialist, commercially available software packages specifically for things like Camera Neg reports/rushes logging, script supervision (script continuity), AD and prod management (scheduling for Call Sheets, Script Breakdowns, Wrap Summaries , etc etc). If her course uses alot of this kind of software (perhaps she can ask?) I recommend she go for a Mac for compatibility's sake. Bummer, I know.
TC

Rickmeister

04-19-2008, 02:30 PM

To get back to the original question. Its not about the tools, its about how you use the tools. So if a Mac works for you, than you use a Mac. If windows does the trick for you, that use a windows.

Personally I do find working on a mac smoother. But what I create on a mac I could do it with the same effort on a windows pc. Though, I think/feel a Mac is more stable, and i've had less chrashes on it.

People who say that macs are way overpriced, or people who say that mac is the only way for graphics artist clearly still think like a decade ago.

Lordstormdragon

04-19-2008, 07:25 PM

...if his girlfriend would suffer for preferring Windows. I think we all concur there is a sufficient market for Windows users worldwide...

As for pricing, Macs are STILL vastly more expensive than building your own system from scratch. I recently saw a page comparing a MacPro tower to a Dell, where the Dell was more expensive. This is probably true, but comparing a Mac and a Dell is comparing apples and apples.

You could build a comparably powerful workstation for 1/3 the price of a MacPro Tower, with better parts up and down the scale. I could break out pricelists, but I think his girlfriend is already in the know...

redcomet77

04-24-2008, 07:53 AM

youre comparing too much on a mac system. you use pc's with windows os then compare youre savings on a dell or any other branded pc, i think its biased to compare youre savings against a mac considering the fact that your clone pc cant run OSX if not cracked or bootleg.

and to saiato, final cut is standard in the industry and i advice that your gf take a route to learn the software. Now why is final cut the standard? i dont really know the statistics, but in a production house i used to work, everytime theres a deliberation on purchasing equipment, mac systems mostly convinces the bosses. Why? media composer is expensive :D

Lordstormdragon

04-24-2008, 09:56 AM

Comparing too much? That was the point of this thread.

Clone PC? What's "clone" about brand-name parts that outperform others? PC stands for "personal computer", which is exactly what a Mac is just as well as a Windows-based PC or a Linux PC. The only computers that aren't personal are those without operating systems; servers and render nodes and such. The only "Clone PC" around is the Macintosh: it borrows every nuance of technology from others' hard work.

Final Cut the standard in the industry, because you claim to have worked at one studio? Final Cut is the MS Paint of video editing. It's no more the standard than notepad.exe is the standard for text-editing.

Media Composer is expensive? It's the same price as a Mac. That's absurd, especially considering nobody runs "Media Composer". Avid isn't exactly a high-end software company. The "bosses" wouldn't be convinced at all.

My point in being so deliberate is that every single claim Mac users make against Windows and Linux is simply and easily refuted, if one does any research at all. Mac users have been suckered into a marketing scheme, and hey, who doesn't like to be controlled by misinforming (lying) commercials and overpriced hardware? It's just good fun to throw your money away.

redcomet77

04-24-2008, 11:04 AM

Well lord...yes its too much comparison, considering saiato is just asking what route to take best for his gf to build her film career. And others have already implied the standards that the industry is using (kudos to earlyworm, tagger, rickmeister etc.). And the answers were simple(like macs are :D), thanks to them.

well, in our part of the world final cut is a standard, now whether that applies in your country or not i dont know. but as far as im concerned, im better off using an editing workstation on a mac rather than a built up pc, i just dont want to mind the hassle of too much research. Now if a branded pc is way cheaper than the best mac, id greatly consider, why? guess. Souped up pc's always has been a problem of mine when it comes to editing workstations. I dont know, maybe i just happen to follow hardware requirements and yet things get quirky. When i had an HP, it was easier, just call for them to fix technical problems. i opted not to get deeper on tech jargon, my apoligies. Yet again maybe i get sleepy doing too much technical research that id rather get hardware that works and experiment more on after effects.

Media composer is the same price as a mac? so it is expensive :) Nobody runs media composer anymore? too bad. Well i guess i better email avid and tell them to drop xpress pro and rather price media composer as xpress pro :) As you have pointed out that they are as priced as a mac, the bosses wouldnt just approve that the software is priced as a system.

Besides im just trying to give advice to saiato. in my perspective, it is better to build your way from final cut because it, as lord... have said, is notepad to text as fcp is to editing in a mac, and then build your way up to the microsoft word equivalent of editing. If you have enough funds to buy a workstation and an editing system that is more than a notepad equivalent, say a wordpad equivalent, then by all means buy it. But if youre gf's a student i highly doubt it.

If you go fcp, get a quad G5, thats more than enough and i think prices are considerable now than mac pros are out. And if youre gf opt to budget your workstation, i think premiere or xpress pro is the way to go. Whether its branded or not, i dunno, ask the experts. In my experience, get a branded one if windows based. The life line's better and spares you from headaches.

Lordstormdragon

04-25-2008, 07:52 AM

Whether its branded or not, i dunno, ask the experts.

That's why he brought this thread up in the first place. I gave my expert opinion, and based it off facts on top of that. Your opinion is based on your limited experience in the Phillipines, which is a nice land, but a very tiny place in the world perspective. I live in Seattle, at the brain of United States CG. I don't mean to be elitist, but your experience is very limited if you believe that Macs are in any way superior to Windows or Linux computers.

(kudos to earlyworm, tagger, rickmeister etc.)

Giving "kudos" to people who agree with you doesn't make you or them "right".

Souped up pc's always has been a problem of mine when it comes to editing workstations.

The Mac is just a not-so-souped up Personal Computer, as I explained earlier.

When i had an HP, it was easier, just call for them to fix technical problems.

You had an HP, and you're basing your experience off of that? The fact that you had to call them for technical problems means you really don't know enough about PC's to be qualified to support any OS, much less make selling points regarding them.

RedComet, I consider your opinion valid. I just consider it wrong, entirely misinformed, and very non-professional.

Tagger

04-25-2008, 12:13 PM

Final Cut the standard in the industry, because you claim to have worked at one studio? Final Cut is the MS Paint of video editing. It's no more the standard than notepad.exe is the standard for text-editing.

Media Composer is expensive? It's the same price as a Mac. That's absurd, especially considering nobody runs "Media Composer". Avid isn't exactly a high-end software company. The "bosses" wouldn't be convinced at all.

Ok, if you're saying that FCP isnt a standard or avid isnt high-end or stuff like that, they you know nothing, absolutely NOTHING about the industry.

Personaly i visit a lot of companies, do a lot of editing, talk all the time with both senior and junior editors all the time, both in traditional filmmaking, broadcast and cg/vfx, basicly on a daily basis both localy and international and they ALL agree that fcp and avid are industry standards, even the few that don't use it in their pipeline. And if they decide on buying new suites and it turns out they need mac's for that, they just buy macs, they hardly even question that appart from some possible network/renderfarm issues. So you must be living in some superindustry where all the rest is wrong :)

Your opinion is based on your limited experience in the Phillipines, which is a nice land, but a very tiny place in the world perspective.
that's just arrogant and borderline racist, why couldnt the Philipines have decent editingstudio's? there's a lot of great editing beeing done outside seatle which may be hard to believe, but it's true.

Tagger

04-25-2008, 05:12 PM

Well i guess i better email avid and tell them to drop xpress pro and rather price media composer as xpress pro :)

your email must have worked because they did that a couple of weeks ago ;)

Velk

04-25-2008, 06:46 PM

Wow so much bias and missinformation. Tagger is right on the money here, Avid and FinalCut Studio are firmly entrenched industry standards in both the film and broadcast worlds.

As far as PC vs. Mac... Go with which ever one fits the pipeline of the tools you will be using or the company you will be working for. I don't think your girlfriend will suffer by not owning a Mac though she may be well served to learn the interface and poke around FCP in case she tries to get a job with a company that uses Macs.

Lordstormdragon

04-25-2008, 06:48 PM

How does any comment about a geographical location imply any loathing, scorn or hatred of someone's race? I'm Korean, not American. I said nothing about his race, you're the only one spewing hate and insults here, Tagger.

And my professional, educated opinion still stands, and here is my justification: she already uses Windows-based PC's. Which puts her far above (in intelligence) than a Mac user, who struggles with basic functions like turning off or on the computer, working with multiple mouse buttons, etc. His girlfriend is already in the upper tier of PC users, and to suggest to her that she needs to dumb herself down just to get a meager low-end job working with low-end software and tools is downright silly, and "borderline sexist". See how easy that is to turn around, Tagger?

I know that people become easily offended during inflammatory topics like this, because you feel that I'm insulting your intelligence. I'm not. I know for fact that you all have the ability to learn (thus, intelligence) because you learned how to read and write. Now, you just need to learn the differences between toy computers and work computers. These things take time, nobody expects Mac fans to learn how real computers work overnight, and neither do I.

Don't take these comments as a personal insult, I meant to be informative to Saiato, not argue with you underachievers about your preference of PC's. Attempting to defame or disregard my opinion here is unneccessary.

Velk

04-25-2008, 08:22 PM

Lordstormdragon, to postulate that Mac users have somehow an inferior level of intelligence is arrogant, boorish and frankly stupid. There are no upper tiers of computing here, only the best tool for the given job. Maybe you live in a place where Windows based systems are the best for what you do and thats fine. None of the systems people are suggesting are "toy" computers by any stretch of the imagination.

Tagger

04-25-2008, 08:47 PM

well, this discussion kind of drifted away from the initial question, this isnt about the girlfriend anymore, we already stated that a PC is a very valid option for her ... hell, i was the first one to say that :)

the discussion landed on a path where you made out to be that mac WASNT a valid option and as a user of both systems i don't see the difference between it, i even think it's stupid that people use the term "a mac user" or "a pc user", but if you have to clasify people i would say i'm a "pc user" because i only use mac for professional purposes, hell, i'll use whatever they want me to use ...

what i state isnt realy any discussionmaterial, it's just fact, if you can't get your head around it, then it's no loss. I'm not a cg-guy who happens to edit every now and then (i'm not saying you are, hell, i don't even know what/who you are). I'm an editor first at this point, which means that i'm neck deep in editing on a daily bases and i NEED to know how the nuts and bolts of it are, and i can't help it that there are a lot of fcp's and macs in the industry, that's just the way it is, worldwide. And i just don't get why you have to put up a front AGAINST mac, didnt you get enough candy as a kid ? i dunno, but arguments like that are just stupid and pointless.

the nice thing about editing films is that you don't realy need all the technical mumbo jumbo (ok, you need your basics, that's true), the biggest technical issue is getting your material on your drives on the app of your choise and the os of your choise and you can do it anywhere, hell, you can capture it in a compressed codec, put the rushes of an entire feature film on your laptop and go sit on the beaches at the bahamas or even ... the philipines of all places (ok, finecutting will be hard with your crappy laptopspeakers and the sun in your screen, but hey, at least you'll get a tan or something), simply because editing is NOT the same as CG, editing is about storytelling, not about getting your images technicaly correct and knowing your computer inside out, so the location where you're based has very little to do with you as an editor, i know a lot of people that know shit about computers that make great edits.

bottom line ... forget about what OS you want to use, think about what app you want to work with and build your computer accordingly. The initial post mentions she already has a pc, then fine, nothing wrong with that AT ALL ... i repeat for the 3rd time or something PC's are nice !!!
If you're talking about how companies work, 80-85% of the companies use either fcp or avid. (don't pin me down on these numbers). If you're freelancing, it's all up to you, but most freelancers are using one of those two programs as well, without saying that the alternatives are "bad" or anything, that's just the way the world turns atm, the reason beeing that freelancers usualy are hired by those companies so they just master themselves in the apps that they use (and if that turns out to be premiere or anything, then they'll just learn premiere). If you only want to edit films then you work in direct contact with the producer/director so then you don't have to feel obligated to follow that path

don't take these comments as a personal insult, i'm just stating facts :)

aglick

04-25-2008, 09:21 PM

**edit** **funny...it took me a while to write this and while I did, TAGGER basically posted the same response as I did - only in a different context. **edit**

I think a distinction should be made between editorial work and VFX work.

There are a good many FCP systems out there doing offline editorial for film. This is undenyable. Certainly more FCP seats than PC's running Adobe Premier in this space.

For higher end editorial of cinematic films, tools such as Avid, Smoke and Fire are standard. While some Avids run on MAC, most run on Windows. Snoke and Fire are Linux-only (older systems run on IRIX only)

On the other hand, I would say (and this is not a scientifically based accounting) that at least 80% of all VFX work (this includes 3D & compositing pipelines) for cinematic release is done on PC's running windows (or to a much smaller degree, linux). Another 5% perhaps are done in Inferno or Flame.

There are MAcs in the VFX space. And improvements in MAC performance in the past few years have allowed more MACs to handle this type of work. Obviously, there a several high end apps that will run on both OSX or Windows. I am simply stating the fact that there are far more Windows PC than MACs doing VFX for film.

Bottom line AFAIC:

If you want to be an editor, it would probably behove you to learn FCP and Avid (on either Windows or MAC).

If you want to be in VFX, pick a few tools and learn them on whatever platform they run on.

It's not a question of which is "better". It's a matter of picking the right tools for what you want to do.

Lordstormdragon

04-25-2008, 09:50 PM

...I humbly apologize for my harsh words. My experience has been different, but as you stated I come from a VFX background and not an editing background, and my limited use of FCP has made it pretty clear to me that it's nothing like Maya. Tagger, please continue putting me in my place, I can take a personal critique as well as an artistic (if you'd consider my work as "art", which I rarely do!) one.

And when all is said and done, we all end up crunching our video down for horrible "television" sets anyway, or even worse thanks to YouTube and such.

Let's all be friends, opinions don't mean we're opponents and I hope I didn't make any of you feel that way here.

redcomet77

04-25-2008, 11:33 PM

My experience limited? I highly contest that. Were a small country with few big studios, who got the quantels, the infernos, the flames, u know the words. And yes you do not mean to be an elitist, you are one. But, like what i was stating before for saiato, if his gf was starting off, what would be the best path for her? i gave my 2cents. Mind you, im a windows user myself. Im only stating, that based on my little experience on a tiny place in the world, fcp is THE norm from big to the smaller than the smallest studios here. Only broadcast stations here centers on avid.

And look, Tagger, velk and boxxlabs are stating the same thing. I guess i know more than a little about the industry dont i? My experience may not be so limited. I guess when we say "standard" it meant no matter where you are. Though, i think that may still be debatable.

Anyway, i was agreeing to the first posters before me so kudos is the wrong term, wrong grammar hehehe.

your email must have worked because they did that a couple of weeks ago ;) WHAT! Dang, damn bosses:twisted:.

And how come my country is listed here? Dang, misconfiguration on my account. Man im really shitty with computers :D Oh well, ill just enjoy the beach and sun (its bora baby!)

PS: its an open question, if windows based, do you custom build your editing workstation or just get configured branded ones?

Lordstormdragon

04-26-2008, 12:11 AM

...apologized for being a jerk. Don't make me regret doing so, and don't become one yourself.

As for workstations, it is always cheaper to build and configure your own, period. But sometimes specialized companies like Boxxtech or ArtVPS do a better job, especially in the case of the RenderServers which are delightful for highly specialized mental ray rendering, or in the case of the Apexx units from Boxxtech which are amazing too.

You get what you pay for, unless of course it's a Mac, and then you get 1/8th of what you paid for! (grins)

That's just for fun, people. Grin, and laugh at the egotistical dragon guy from afar!

leigh

04-28-2008, 04:25 PM

A late addition to this thread...

The only studios I know of that (for certain) use Macs in production are the crews working on low-budget cartoons, such as South Park or Adult Swim cartoons from Cartoon Network....

You can add Framestore-CFC to that list. Because the good folks over here were "foolhardy" enough to make the entire painting and texturing department Mac based. I'm sure they'd enjoy your suggestion that they're simply suckers for a marketing campaign. And I'm sure there are many other studios that can be added to the list - I'm just mentioning FSCFC because I'm currently employed here.

And my professional, educated opinion still stands,

Professional and educated? A more apt description would be "personally biased without any real basis in reality". For a self-proclaimed "professional" you certainly don't seem to know very much about this industry at all.

and here is my justification: she already uses Windows-based PC's. Which puts her far above (in intelligence) than a Mac user, who struggles with basic functions like turning off or on the computer, working with multiple mouse buttons, etc.

Pretty rich coming from someone who claims to "not tolerate personal attacks" - the lame apology you posted later in the thread simply doesn't make up for this preposterous, and ultimately childish claim, which truly invalidates your contributions to this thread since it does little more than present you as an immature, bigoted fool (or perhaps I should simply state that it was the final nail in the coffin after your other arrogant and utterly misguided posts). You've pretty much managed to blindly insult every person who has chosen to use a platform that you simply dislike, for whatever personal reasons you have. Because frankly, you've not really made any cogent, truly objective post in this thread.

I especially enjoyed your mention of the multiple mouse buttons - it just goes to show how out of touch with reality you actually are. It never ceases to amaze me how software/platform fanboys can go around spewing absolutely clueless hatred, without realising that they're making fools of themselves. Next time, try to do some research so as to avoid looking like a total cretin.

Lone Deranger

04-28-2008, 06:51 PM

Hi Saiato,

first of all, sorry to see your thread having collapsed into chaos thanks to pretentious jerks like Lordstormdragon. A quick glance at his gallery can tell you his "background in VFX" would be rudimentary at best and his opinions therefore shouldn't be weighed to heavily.

Now... here's as unbiased an opinion as I can give you... :D

As Leigh already pointed out, here at Framestore 95% of the texture and matte painting departments are using Macs with the odd PC running Linux on the side. In addition to this, there is an increasing number of Mac workstations being installed in other departments as well. This includes all of our Avid suites, where they are used for running FCP. The amount of MacBooks, MacBook Pros, iMacs and Mac Pros my collegues at FSCFC are buying personally has grown exponentially since Apple's switch to Intel processors. I've mentioned in other threads that it's mostly glowing Apple logo's with just the odd ThinkPad or Dell scattered about here or there. When I started here 10 years ago it was a very different picture.
The reason for this is simply the convenience of running just about every OS under the sun. With OSX for many turning out to be the jewel in the crown.

It always makes me chuckle when people state that using Macs limits one's choice of software tremendously where as in fact Mac users nowadays have the greatest choice of all, being able to multi-boot into any world of software they prefer.

In light of this I would recommend your girlfriend to consider the still increasing market share of Final Cut in VFX and Macs in general (Mac sales are currently growing at a rate of three and a half times that of regular PC sales, despite the economic downturn). And wether or not the route she is about to take would leave her at a disadvantage if she is not capable of running OSX only software on her PC.
At the very least I would advise her to find a way of seriously trying out a Mac for a few weeks. Borrow one from a friend, or visit an Apple Store and attend their classes on Pro software. That way she can find out for herself if she likes OSX and Final Cut.

Hope this helps you out! :)

My girlfriend is currently studying Visual Arts with an emphasis in film at her university. She is a PC user, however she is constantly critisized by people who say that in film, Macs are the standard and the only way to go (Final cut Pro instead of Adobe Premier, which she uses). Because this is a professional forum, I was hoping someone could shed some light on this issue: is a PC user at a disadvantage in a film career? In her specific case, budget is an issue and she is looking to build a work station.

Thank you for your input =)

ps.. well said Leigh!

leigh

04-29-2008, 12:20 AM

Premiere and After-Effects have powered teleivision and movies for years behind the scenes, and almost every show, movie, or commercial you've ever seen went through one of these.

I can't believe I missed this hilarious tidbit earlier. Seriously, get clued up, then share your "educated" opinion.

Just... wow.

Lordstormdragon

04-29-2008, 01:42 AM

Meanwhile, keep watching your iPod commercials and Mac vs. PC Applebates to acquire all pertinent information.

I'm too busy playing with my new Apple, which never crashes and has no viruses, bugs, or errors, ever. Who needs a RMB or MMB, anyway?

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/928/vtechlearningapple55232wu5.jpg

I really didn't mean to degenerate this thread with my opinion, but alas there are so many "fanboy" types who simply like Macs because they look cool and have zippy, dancy commercials, while knowing nothing about what's going on under the hood and doing no research whatsoever into the hardware involved.

I'm not saying that you folks fall into that class. I'm mostly sticking up for my platform-of-choice, and if I'm a bit ruthless about it then I'll try to tone that down and stick to simple graphs and pie-charts to express myself. I anticipate that you'll delete all this nonsense anyway, or perhaps ban me for having an opinion differing from yours after you went out and attacked me yourself, but sometimes that's the way the cookie crumbles. If it didn't crumble, it wouldn't be a cookie! Unless it was like, Chewy Chips Ahoy, which aren't very crumbly of course...

Or perhaps I'm wrong about that too. Maybe I should go purchase some Chewy Chips Ahoy before making such a statement? Don't want the Chocolate Chip Cookie Fanboys lashing out at me, now do I...

"If you're not laughin', then you're no fun."
- George W. Bush

redcomet77

04-29-2008, 08:55 AM

now leigh is talking :D the discussions are getting pretty hot

Tagger

04-29-2008, 10:19 AM

funny how you keep talking about "people using macs that don't have knowledge of the hardware" while you don't even know that macs do have multibuttoned mice :)

and if it'll make you feel better, i sure as hell made macs crash.

buying a mac based on the "design" alone or whatever is stupid. but it's even more stupid to judge a computer because of it's fan base. Because that's what it is, a computer, a worktool that helps you make content one way or the other, and the only question to ask is "will it get the job done", because the topic of this thread is all about "will x or y get the job done" as a professional app (for editing film in this case).

you're turning it into something it's not, this isn't your personal forum to proove that people who buy macs are ... whatever. because you're at the same level as the people you seem to label as "mac fans", you're just on the other side of the fence, so again, get your head out of your ass and start thinking as a professional, PLEASE

leigh

04-29-2008, 10:50 AM

I'm too busy playing with my new Apple, which never crashes and has no viruses, bugs, or errors, ever. Who needs a RMB or MMB, anyway?

Okay, apparently you missed your cue here (I gave a hint earlier but somehow it slipped under your radar - perhaps all those cookie crumbs obscured your display). I use a three button mouse with my Macs. Most people do. Sorry to shatter your illusion of reality here, but someone had to do it sooner or later. After using PCs for about 20 years, I really just couldn't switch to a one button mouse, so I opted to stick with familiar convention.

I really didn't mean to degenerate this thread with my opinion, but alas there are so many "fanboy" types who simply like Macs because they look cool and have zippy, dancy commercials, while knowing nothing about what's going on under the hood and doing no research whatsoever into the hardware involved.

I'm curious as to how is this worse than a fanboy of another platform making laughably false statements without doing any research whatsoever into the hardware he's taking a dig at? How can you knock something that you clearly know absolutely nothing about? Now I hope you're sitting down, because this may come as a shock to you, but for the last few years, Macs have had almost exactly the same hardware inside them as PCs. I know, I know, this is quite a paradigm shift for you at this time. But hold on, there's more - and you may want to have some sugar water with your cookies to wash this one down: Macs even have Intel chips in them, just like PCs. Isn't that amazing? I am sure you may be in such a state of shock now that you may need counselling, but don't worry, I am sure that in time, and with the right medication and treatment, you'll recover.

All you're really doing is making yourself look like more and more of a cretin. Perhaps you're just a sucker for punishment, but you've been caught out, and frankly outclassed. So have the good grace to bow out and save us all the pain of watching you embarrass yourself even further. That's my professional, educated advice to you.

Lone Deranger

04-29-2008, 02:02 PM

So after having "some" sense knocked into you by the more knowledgable people in this thread you're down to the childish act of mockery through image posting (and quoting Bush of all people :surprised)? While in the same post claiming you don't want to degenerate this thread with your opinion? Do you even think twice about just what it is you post?

And where do you see the Mac fanboys in this thread? I read over all posts again and I count eleven people giving neutral and decently expressed opinions and one individual (that would be you!) spewing vitriol against Macs and anybody who points out your (many) inaccuracies. Is that, as say you say, 'sticking up for your platform-of-choice'?
Nobody here mentioned anything bad about "your" platform. What's there to stick up for? Classic case of defense through offensive I suppose.... (There's a Bush quote for you).

So all in all, well done chap! You've done a wonderful job of self-indoctrination and self-humiliation. Or was it the poisonous fumes wafting over from downtown Redmond?

ps... I don't think Leigh will ever allow you or your posts to be deleted/banned. Why deprive people the comic relief of watching you make a complete ass out of yourself? :D

Meanwhile, keep watching your iPod commercials and Mac vs. PC Applebates to acquire all pertinent information.

I'm too busy playing with my new Apple, which never crashes and has no viruses, bugs, or errors, ever. Who needs a RMB or MMB, anyway?

I really didn't mean to degenerate this thread with my opinion, but alas there are so many "fanboy" types who simply like Macs because they look cool and have zippy, dancy commercials, while knowing nothing about what's going on under the hood and doing no research whatsoever into the hardware involved.

I'm not saying that you folks fall into that class. I'm mostly sticking up for my platform-of-choice, and if I'm a bit ruthless about it then I'll try to tone that down and stick to simple graphs and pie-charts to express myself. I anticipate that you'll delete all this nonsense anyway, or perhaps ban me for having an opinion differing from yours after you went out and attacked me yourself, but sometimes that's the way the cookie crumbles. If it didn't crumble, it wouldn't be a cookie! Unless it was like, Chewy Chips Ahoy, which aren't very crumbly of course...

Or perhaps I'm wrong about that too. Maybe I should go purchase some Chewy Chips Ahoy before making such a statement? Don't want the Chocolate Chip Cookie Fanboys lashing out at me, now do I...

"If you're not laughin', then you're no fun."
- George W. Bush

ambient-whisper

04-30-2008, 02:39 AM

i personally cant wait till the performance of macs is a tiny bit better on the 3d side. if i boot into windows, i get about double the performance on the same machine. apple likes underclocking its hardware to make machines run quieter, and drain less power. i personally want every ounce of power that my machine can squeeze out.

anyway the reason i say this is because when working with references, textures, models, or anything, the multiple applications that you can use to tag, organize your material for really quick access later is something that just isnt found on the windows side.

i dont ever have to complete typing a word and ill get results in the search bar. thats something that is soo overlooked by many people. i want to load in a wood texture, start typing, find the image im looking for and just drag drop into the application. no need to ever use heavy resource applications like bridge.

same thing goes for reference images or links that i might have to artists works.

theres nothing on windows that i found to be close to as useful as applications like "together" or "mac journal".

the performance and availability of software in windows is undeniable though :/.

thats why its good to have both :D

even if i dont use my mac to do most of the work, if any sometimes, i use it as a companion machine where i load up references, use it as my music player, do all my email through ( again, searching in mail kicks ass ), manage calendar data, journal information i need, keep my personal photography organized, etc. considering that i have a wireless network in my macbook pro i can easily grab stuff off the windows machine, so it never really miss the functionality of one when i get move data around easily. plus a lot of these applications are connected, which makes it really easy to share data between applications. thats one downside to most applications in the windows world. most applications seem to live in their own world. a lot of walls exist in the windows environment. doing things like accessing my aperture library from within the mail application is useful at times. it makes sure that i dont need to open up aperture, save out any images, so i then can use inside mail. i just go right for the images. same with address book. it shows all my contacts, and smart contacts folders so i can mail anyone within a given company quickly. yet, they are separate applications. they just share databases, which rocks.

id love for windows to kick ass in this aspect as well. ( i haven't bothered with vista so im not sure how its improved, but considering they never got their journaled file system in place, i dont think its anywhere as good as the one in osx just yet ). that and the fact that windows gets bogged down big time when registry gets big. its just not a problem on osx. so keeping your personal data, and references, etc makes sense on mac. you wont be formatting very often, if at all.

another thing that is nice on osx is how shortcuts that you add to the sidebar of finder exist in all applications. so moving around the hard drive is soo fast. i cant remember how many times ive asked developers to add simple ways to bookmark locations within their applications for windows so i can access my local and network drives for any given job faster. its always a pain in the butt as some houses have really deep networks.

so while some users keep fighting over applications, i think there should be a lot more to consider in the grand scheme of things

Lordstormdragon

05-01-2008, 01:19 AM

Indeed, I am aware of all the technical and hardware aspects of the Mac PC. I know it can run a multi-button mouse, and the newer ones have a multi-sensing mouse button which performs multiple tasks. I was aware of Intel hardware being used in them before Apple was, for that matter. I am not blind to any of these aspects.

But considering the nature of Apple's marketing campaign of misinformation, slander, lies, and general fallacy, I found it amusing to try their technique. And it works. That may be the only thing Apples does right!

Making fun of toy computers IS fun. Watching you all get riled up over it is just as much fun. It's all about comedy, my friends. I know it hurts to be outwitted and outsmarted, and I know sarcasm is a difficult language to learn...

But on a serious note, in response to Ambient Whisper, I've never had any problem doing all of the things you've listed on my Windows machines. It's just like in the Mac vs. PC commercial, when the movie-star kid claims that cameras hook up easily to USB on a Mac, but that PC's can't do that. Autcomplete works on Windows, Ambient Whisper. In fact, the only thing Macs/Apple has done that is remotely original is the newer magnetic power-plug on the MacBooks. Of course, Apple stole that from someone else too, but it does work well and should be standard on all laptops, methinks.

It's ridiculous. And therefore, should be ridiculed!

ambient-whisper

05-01-2008, 01:50 AM

auto complete isnt the same as typing a word and the search automatically updating itself based on your letters that you entered.

searching in windows is a long process/routine that just gets stupid slow on a pc that has lots of files in it.. on osx its near instant. the difference is absolutely huge in both design and implementation.

it seems like you havent tried it before. i suggest you go to a futureshop/best buy or whatever, open up the finder application and in the upper right corner start to type some letters.

Lordstormdragon

05-01-2008, 02:58 AM

My best friend is a Mac-fan, and he has a MacBook Pro... I'll give it a shot, just so I can be objective next time.

leigh

05-01-2008, 10:58 AM

Lone Deranger

05-01-2008, 12:30 PM

It took you two days and that's the best response you can come up with?

The two days is how long it took for his message to reach the CGTalk servers all the way down from that huge pit he's dug for himself. Electronic signals can only travel so fast. Then again, he's got a PC!! It defies the laws of nature and in it electricity travels 8 times faster than light. :D

You are indeed entertainment LadStormDragon. The 'C' in your CG Artist label stands for Comedian. Please keep going. :beer:

AmbientWhisper, that's a lot of slow down you seem to be experiencing (twice as slow). Can't say I've seen it that bad myself.
Anyway, I agree with you on the togetherness of applications in OSX.

A really cool feature of OSX is the drag and drop interactivity between cocoa applications. For instance being able to drag an image from the Safari web browser directly into PhotoShop (no need to save/load or copy/paste). Or selecting some text and dragging it onto the desktop gives you a richtextfile document with the clipping in there.
Or Automater and it's ability to string the functionality of applications together in an easily executable macro. I could go on.. the list is long... Awesome stuff.

Lordstormdragon

05-01-2008, 04:26 PM

...so don't give up now! A few more recruits, maybe a dozen, and combined you may approach some semblance of potency. I can help you guys, it's pretty basic so just leave the fear behind and relax.

First, take one apple in your hand. Say it with me aloud, "One." Good! You're halfway there. Math is fun! Now, take an apple in your other hand. Now say aloud, "Two."

See? That's called counting. Note that one and one doesn't make five, nor three, but two. It's much simpler than it seems, but evidently they don't teach such high level functions in other nations. I don't like living in America one bit, but at least here you can assume that anyone you meet can already count to two. Note that I used apples in my lesson, to help your minds familiarize themselves with the heavy math. It's because I love you that I am so selfless and patient.

Other things they teach here: sarcasm, wit, cleverness, the thirst for knowledge, desire to better oneself instead of wallow in mediocrity, and most importantly, The Art of Debate.

I know it hurts to lose a debate and look foolish in front of other people, but I assure you both that healing is possible. You can recover from this spiritual and moral blow. Being wrong, unprofessional, and entirely unoriginal are all states that you can improve, given time. Nobody is expecting miracles from Mac fanboys, especially not your boss. He knows these things take a lifetime to accomplish.

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/5156/stevekoolaid2aj9.jpg

Although, the comment about After Effects and Premiere being used on almost every production ever was so funny that I could believe that to be a joke.

You already said that, and it was numbingly weak the first time too. Repetition doesn't make a joke any more funny, or an insult any more potent.

It took you two days and that's the best response you can come up with? The old "oh haha, I was just joking" routine? *yawn* Go crawl back under your rock

It took you eight hours to type that? Seriously? Who says that anymore? It's 2008, not 1978, kiddo.

<insert image of frantic back-peddling here>

They don't let you post images on a Mac? Oh, come on... THAT is farfetched.

You are indeed entertainment LadStormDragon. The 'C' in your CG Artist label stands for Comedian. Please keep going.

Jealousy and insecurity aren't exactly marks of distinction (in my country, anyway) Loner, but keep trying and I'm certain you'll find work soon. I suggest perhaps making an online portfolio, or a demo reel, or maybe just do some artwork to develop your skills. Be patient with yourself, it'll come to you!

I thank you kindly, both, for your very professional opinions. Defeat always feels horrible, especially in a public forum, but nobody will hold it against you. We're all friends here!

Tagger

05-01-2008, 04:51 PM

but keep trying and I'm certain you'll find work soon. I suggest perhaps making an online portfolio, or a demo reel, or maybe just do some artwork to develop your skills. Be patient with yourself, it'll come to you!

wait, i don't realy get what you mean by that? are you suggesting to an employee of one of the biggest fx houses in the world that they have to find work ??? in what universe does that make sense ?

anyways, you lost this discussion a long time ago, and the more you keep trying to "defend" yourself the more people are saying you're wrong, so at this point it's kind of like talking to a rock or something, only difference is that a rock can't help beeing a rock :)