Mclaren LM

[DiMENSiON]

Here's a good tutorial that explains how mesh smoothing works, and should help you with modeling your car.

http://www.munkmotion.com/tutorials/nsx/1a.htm

I'm no expert, but I think lots of people detatch their doors, hoods and trunks as seperate meshes.

[Goldeneye]

Haha thanks. I guess you didn't notice that I linked to that same site, or that I used it as a basis for what I did. :)

[FrageNSTEIN]

It is not a bad model, but lemme take a guess at what it looks like you may be doin wrong, and you tell me i am right...

It looks like you may be starting with a box or plane (or whatever) that has TOO MANY edges/divisions. When you do that it makes it very hard to smoothly place all your vertices to make it all look nice. If you take say... ONE quad/poly and stretch it over an area like the hood... then line up just THOSE FOUR VERTS, THENNNNNN add new divisions, and line THOSE up, it sohuld be easier. Do not add edges until the edges/verts you HAVE are where they should be.

I may not be correct on this, but let me know if that WAS what you did.

Drew

[Goldeneye]

Hmmm maybe box modelling isn't what I'm doing then. Basically what I did was Make a box, delete all faces but one, then extrude and snap the vertices to the guidelines that I created from the top, front and side view of the car.

Any suggestions to improve what I've done?

My trouble is that I don't really know how to add detail without propogating the divisions throughout the rest of the mesh. So a little division on the lights to make them round means I now have extra polygons down the entire length of the car and across the hood as you can see from my polygon/wire pic.

[FrageNSTEIN]

You do not HAVE to divide as far as it will go like this...

|-----|------|-----|
|-----|------|-----|
|-----|------|-----|

If it is an area that does not curve too much, you can do this sometimes....

|-----|------|-----|
| |------| |
|-----|------|-----|

^^Where you have like, 2 polys connecting to the side of one larger poly....

Hard to explain all this without showing like... realtime... but maybe you wanna see one of my wires... idk, it may help.

Edit: Disregard those text drawings, HTML screws em up... just lemme know if you wanna see a wire. Interestingly enough, i'll let you know the first car i tried was an LM, looked ALOT like yours... I scrapped it after a while, but everything helps in the learning experience.


Drew

[Goldeneye]

Yes I would definintely like to see your wires. I can subdivide a face that's connected to another face without propogating the subdivision because the mesh becomes detached. Ie. there is a vertex halfway along the undivided edge that doesn't connect to the undivided face. (makes sense?) So if there is a work around that doesn't use 3 sided poly's or even a way to make those work well when mesh smoothed, I'd really like to see it. Thanks.

Oh, and yes, I understand you picture. It's what I just explained in the paragraph above. Doesn't the extra vertex in the centre "column" cause problems because it isn't attatched to the faces in the first and last "column"?

[FrageNSTEIN]

Are you using MAX's Editable Poly? If not, do... and use Meshtools... it is a free dload that you kinda hafta install urself, but it helps ALOT with polymodelling, UNLESS you are using max FIVE, in which case you prolly do not need that.

Anyway...

Ferrari Enzo Wire (http://members.cox.net/drew.haynes/folio/enzo/enzo02.jpg)

[Goldeneye]

Oh seeeat! I think I may have solved it! I guess the "divide" button in the edge sub-selection does the trick.

Yes, I'm in 3D Studio Max 5 using edit mesh on a box.

Let's see your wireframes. Just out of curiosity.

[FrageNSTEIN]

I already posted them, one message back, but uhmmm, you might wanna use editable POLY instead of editable mesh when doing high poly.... just a suggestion.

Drew

[Goldeneye]

Heh, sorry wasn't paying attention. Thought it was part of your siggy. Thanks for the help.

What's the editable poly? How do I do that? Is it a modifier? Where is it?

[FrageNSTEIN]

Uhmmm, the way I start is by makin a box or plane "primitive", then go to the modify tab, and RIGHT CLICK on "Box" or whatever it says on the white space, then select "Editable Poly"

Drew

[Goldeneye]

Oh! That's new! Wow look at all these new options! Thanks :) I'll have to see what I can do with this. What's the benefit of editable poly over edit mesh modifier?

[FrageNSTEIN]

Well, MESHSMOOTHING, which is what you will add for it to be smooth at the end, is GREATLY affected by how edges are used. Mesh uses more edges because everything is technically 3-sided, and those loads of weird edges can make meshsmooth smooth strangely... so using e-poly, u can have more control of how many edges are used and where they are.

I g2g, but i will check back here later tonight,

Drew

[Maximus Groff]

:beer: Thats damn good for a start!

Keep those images coming!

[FrageNSTEIN]

Let us know when you get something new to show...

Drew

[Goldeneye]

Thanks for the support guys. (gals?). Anywya. I'm restarting the mesh and I need a few pointers.

1. When is it okay to use non-quad faces?
2. How do you model sharp bends in a surface. E.g. for a hoodscoop would I make a chamfer edge or should I use the crease button in the edge sub-selection?
3. Question described in detail here (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61755)

Thanks again for your interest. I think I may have to re-restart my model because I got a little insert vertex happy and ended up with some 6 sided poly's. :)


What a I learned.

Meshmooth messes up your intended borders and stretches stuff out of wack. Can be fixed with a few things. Crease, Weight, or Smoothing Groups. Which is better? I don't know. I tend to stay away from weighted verts because they pull in the new verts from all directions, not just the side of the weighted vert that you want to affect. This was trouble around the corners of the side window and the rear window. I got around it by adding extra verts near the corners. This solved the problem of the shape, but caused many new and strange surface (topology?) problems.

Here's my second fruitless (well almost, still learned a lot) attempt. I went with a less is more approach and hoped the meshsmooth would work it all out.

[Goldeneye]

At least the wheel modelling is going well.

See it here (http://exchange.digitalfoundry.ca/display.php?id=377&actual=yes).

[FrageNSTEIN]

I personally prefer chamferring edges more than anything else. In the case of complex models like my enzo, I chamfer everything all at once at the end. Use tight chamfers too, and be prepared to target weld some weird spots if necessary.

Drew

[Goldeneye]

OKay. I see on your enzo wireframe that your windows have a bunch of faces around the edge. Is that from the chamfer? Or did you make that first so the meshmooth would be tighter around those parts?

[Goldeneye]

It seems that "inset" helps when trying to keep the mesh from moving too much when meshsmoothed. Did you do that on your front lights?

[Goldeneye]

Do you mind posting a pic of the enzo wireframe with the shaded model underneath (no textures) just so it's easier to see what you did in some places. Or some closeups of say the headlights, front scoop and side windows?

Thanks.

[FrageNSTEIN]

Sure, I can get some renders. I have to leave in a little while, but lemme try to get em up before I go...

Drew
BTW: While i get that stuff, check out my new post in WIP called "This pretty good?". It has my enzo rendered HUGE. And my website has a flatshaded animation of the enzo, and pics.

[Goldeneye]

Ohohoohoh ohoh oho owww..... I'm pwned. :) Very nice pic.

A few questions whenever you have time.

1. How did you model the lights (the "bay" that they sit in). Is the glass welded to the rest of the mesh? If so, how. I can't seem to get more than 2 faces to come off of any 1 edge.

2. How do you model the pieces of the body? Or rather, get the lines between each piece of the body like on the nose or around the doors?

3. Who taught you? Did you take a course? Self taught (I assume much of your skill is self taught)

Here comes the plug.

I have a website that I run with a friend where people can upload art and literature. It's basically a Deviant Art, but I didn't know about DA when I made the site. I would be honoured if you posted some of your work on it. Maybe bring some class to the joint :). If you're interested, follow the link in my siggy or go to http://www.digitalfoundry.ca.

[FrageNSTEIN]

Sure thing... and about my experience....

I just turned 17 so I am still in high school, which is why I have any time to do this stuff. I started doin 3d about one year and a month ago, and I am self-taught pretty much altogether.

About my car... I modelled the "bays" as part of the same mesh, but the glass is a simply a piece sitting there unconnected. I basically modelled how I wanted the lens while it was ON the mesh, then detached that part, then filled it again and made the bay, if that makes sense.

I will check out ur site first thing in the morning.

Drew

[Goldeneye]

Yeah that's what I did for the lights. I detached the cover and then extruded the bay. back with more updates when they're ready.
Damn just turned 17. Everyone seems to have figure out 3D studio so quickly. I've had the program for several years but never really modelled anything serious until now. Maybe that's why I'm so far behind. Oh, I'm 19 in a few days BTW.

[Goldeneye]

Here's the latest. I'm still having trouble with a few things. How do you get corners to stay in place when meshsmoothed without using the crease spinner? Chamfer works on long edges but a chamfer corner doesn't seem to want to stay put. If I could get that to work, this would be a piece of cake... a large troublesome cake.

[FrageNSTEIN]

You've chamferred the edges of the actual corners themselves, and not simply the surface facing outward?

Drew

[Goldeneye]

I think I've figured it out. I looked at a wireframe of someone else's McLaren and saw that they break up long surfaces into smaller parts even if one face would suffice. That coupled with a chamfer edge seems to make for nice rounded edges that still retain their original shape. I'll post an updated pic soon.

[FrageNSTEIN]

Sounds cool; I started my next car today. It is BASICLY a Porsche 911 GT3, but it will be pretty modified, and it will not look exactly like any specific 911/Carrera.

Drew

[Goldeneye]

Well I made a breakthrough indeed. Thanks to the wireframe pic I consulted. My wireframe is still quite different, but I learned a bit about how many polys you need to keep a shape after meshmoothed. Here's what I have so far. The front scoop, hood and front wheel well are the only parts that have the "new mesh". The rest is the old mesh. I didn't chamfer the edges yet because I still have to make some changes, or at least I may and therefore I don't want to ruin my mesh yet. I've also got to fix the small lights in the front because they are too wide.

[Goldeneye]

Here's an update. I detached each piece and gave them "thickness". Only what I've nearly finished modelling is shown.

[tyio]

wé, c'est bien, l'entrée d'air au dessus n'est pas comme çà, je crois,
Dès qu'il y a l'epaisseur, c'est mieux :scream:

Fait un petit rendu avec Hrdi, pour le fun et pour voir les defauts de reflections avant de faire les petits details comme les phares

[FrageNSTEIN]

Ur gettin there... it still has problems and they probably will not go away, but for someone who has not done much of this... this is very good, and I am confident that most flaws in this model will be recognized and you will probably avoid them in the future.

Good job!

Drew

[Goldeneye]

Thanks for the comments guys. :) Yeah, there are still problems with the mesh, but I think I'm gonna finish this one and fix the problems with a new car. My main problem now is knowing when and where to subdivide the main mesh to get small details like inset lights and gas caps, etc.

Tyio: En français. Excusez moi, mais mon français est très limité. :D

J'ai pour vérifier HDRI, je ne sais pas beaucoup à son sujet. Les commentaires rapides ont apprécié. De toutes mes images de référence, l'entrée d'air supérieure du McLaren regarde assez beaucoup exactement comme celui, excepté peut-être un peu moins à affleurement du toit de la voiture.

And now for something completely different. In English in case I made no sense in French.

I've got to check out HDRI, I don't know much about it. Quick tips appreciated. From all my reference pictures, the McLaren's top air intake looks pretty much exactly like that, except maybe a bit more flush with the roof of the car.

Fragenstein : Thanks, nice to know someone has faith. :surprised If you have any tips on the problems you can see in my model, it would be VERY HELPFUL to me now and in the future. It's annoying how some of my smooth corners smooth the same way as other pieces, namely the upper inside corner of the headlights. I checked it out and it's because of the meshmooth but I don't know how to fix it yet without adding more verts.

Nonetheless, I am not deterred. I'm actually very surprised at how well for a first try at real modelling this turned out. Most of my other stuff is limited to simple shapes and complex shaders to make stuff look cool. Thanks for your support guys/gals.

[true_to_XSI]

good stuff dude
thanks for the good adivce i will try it out
i think it looks better then mine
keep going cant wait till the update

[FrageNSTEIN]

Not sure EXACTLY which part of the headlight you are referring to?...

Oh, btw.. do you have access to brazil, preferrably 1.0?


Drew

[Goldeneye]

Oh nevermind the headlights. I fixed it with a bit of ugly modelling that got the job done. Here's the latest. It's almost ready to be tweaked and textured.

Yep Frag, I do have brazil 1.0.

Here's the latest. Click it to view my art community website.

http://exchange.digitalfoundry.ca/users/Goldeneye/0.0.8.9.9.1.Composite.jpg (http://exchange.digitalfoundry.ca/)

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