Top 10 things v8 'needs'

[DickM]

10.) Full Hair/Fur/Cloth solution
9.) Vertex weighting
8.) Much more advanced Morphing system
7.) Lattice Deformer
6.) Spline Ik solution
5.) Soft Ik solution
4.) more advanced Ik tools
3.) New giu & customizable hotkeys- examples: dock-able palettes for quicker access... Panes instead of separate windows...etc
2.) Better bone falloff and weight maps
1.) INTEGRATED MODELER

[PaulS2]

Sadly, I have hardly been using EI these days - there are aspects of it I really like. The Aniso shader is the best I have ever come across in any app, it reads EIM models perfectly, it is simple to use and can handle hi-poly/hi-res very well but the apps I use to get much more done take advantage of all of the processors in my computers when rendering tests and stills. The new features are very good.

Once I had experienced a good multi-processor support implementation in Modo and in Brazil4Rhino for rendering...and the speed increase in productivity, it's almost impossible to want to go back even though EI has some advantages.

I think EI is the only 3D app which does not have multi-processor support - this is a vital 'run of the mill' feature. Yes, I've heard it will take considerable work to implement but it needs to be done.

[Vizfizz]

CJ and Richard,

A lot of your CA requests are being considered, however, the beta team & developers found a considerable amount of internal infrastructure work needs to be done in order to accomplish those high level CA and vertex level features. v8 will hopefully begin to address those infrastructure requirements at some level, however there probably wont be a huge jump in CA tools until v9. Some of the things that I've seen that are being put into place for v8 includes UI improvements, 64bit support, more API enhancements, a large number of user requested workflow tools, additional render capabilities for Camera, OpenEXR, and so forth. From what I can determine, the intent with v8 is to round out the package and provide a more solid base to expand the program on.

As with any upgrade, a balance must be struck between new tools and overhauls to the older legacy infrastructure. We all know EIAS was originally intended to be a hard surface animation package. If too much is done in overhauls, as opposed to new tools, users may not see the benefits of upgrading and may pass over v8 and wait until later. EI can't afford to do this, so a balance between UI, tools, and infrastructure must be struck.

Tesla is also an interesting development as well. If it turns out to be an amazing program, I wouldn't be surprised to see EITG consider expanding it, rather than Animator, with more "organic" animation tools because it will possess the internal vertex level capabilities so many CA users require.

[yhloon]

So Tesla 2/3 = EIAS 10?

[juanxer]

I'd suggest:

-Being able to Preferences-set preview renderings to transparently use Renderama's frame strip rendering (and showing the results in Animator as normal previews do): that ought to alleviate the need for true multithreaded multiprocessing where it hurts most. Having previews produce Layer Shader files if render settings are so set.

-Some way to provide a "one button-occlusion pass" or something that can be integrated into the Layer Shaders output without needing to adjust materials and save an occlusion pass-oriented version of the project apart. Or at least some way to temporaly override all objects' Materials and set them as neutral. It's mostly about having a "one button-Ian's OP recipe" :).

-In this forum there have been many UI suggestions that make sense before: screensets, making all Info windows user-floatable, keyboard shortcuts remapping (I'd add to that more-than-two button mouse mapping), mousewheel support, etc. I'd see about revising all Info windows so that sizes are regular enough (say, Material Info-width and half-width) for them to be neatly piled aside.

-I'd steal from After Effects' UI as much as possible.


That more-than-8 bpc output is being considered is very encouraging.

[PaulS2]

"-Being able to Preferences-set preview renderings to transparently use Renderama's frame strip rendering (and showing the results in Animator as normal previews do): that ought to alleviate the need for true multithreaded multiprocessing where it hurts most. Having previews to produce Layer Shader files if render settings are so set."

I like this - I know a multiprocessor supported Camera is a lot of work...but essential. If this approach is do-able and fairly transparent it might be the perfect compromise. But, it needs to be a workable and transparent approach - as you mentioned.

[3DArtZ]

CJ and Richard,

A lot of your CA requests are being considered, however, the beta team & developers found a considerable amount of internal infrastructure work needs to be done in order to accomplish those high level CA and vertex level features. v8 will hopefully begin to address those infrastructure requirements at some level, however there probably wont be a huge jump in CA tools until v9.

Vizfizz, I'm not saying this about you, as I know you are only the messenger pulling for all of our request...
but do you know how frustrating this is?

EI should be busting its arse to catch up and also give the long time users who have stuck
with them some acknowledgment for being loyal to them.

[AVTPro]

EI should be busting its arse to catch up and also give the long time users who have stuck
with them some acknowledgment for being loyal to them.
co-sign


Anyway, no particular order.

1. Full ZB renders support (50% gray displacement, subpixel, internal subD surface support.)
2. Hiding geometry speeds up interface. (High/Low Res switching)
3. Better skinning Wmp fall off. Auto wmps after skinning
4. Set Driven Keys/Direct connections
5. Deformers: Wrap and Lattice.Infleunce objects
6. Morph tweening and sculpt
7. Better Bone technologies (stretchy, joint oriention, mirror heirarchy)
8. *Virtual Slider control-Custom attributes interface/ built in FK/IK
9. Vertex Animation import
10. cloth/hair/fur/Muscles

[Vizfizz]

Vizfizz, I'm not saying this about you, as I know you are only the messenger pulling for all of our request...
but do you know how frustrating this is?

EI should be busting its arse to catch up and also give the long time users who have stuck
with them some acknowledgment for being loyal to them.


3DArtZ,

Personally, I think you're being a bit unfair. (But understandably so) No one, except maybe Alonzo, wants CA for EI more than I do. Trust me. I know this news is frustrating. Before I really got a handle on what needed to be done for EITG to transform EIAS into a CA powerhouse, I was a little put off by the news myself. Then I started seeing the amount of work required in relationship to the amount and type of assets we have in getting the job done.

I can assure you that Brad Parscale is VERY committed in making EIAS competitive again. We will see modern CA tools emerge in our camp eventually whether its in the form of EIAS enhancements or the transformation of Tesla into a potential CA tool. However, try to realize that EI is busting its arse. Seriously, they are. The folks at EI are doing everything to stay in the game and if you look at the history of the program, there are several instances where they could have rightfully abandoned ship....permenantly. But, they're still with us, and plan to stay with us until they're back on top again.

There are lots of things EITG must balance to keep viable. Every release must be carefully planned and tactically considered, because one false step could mean the end. Therefore, if version 8 came out with all the necessary infrastructure enhancements to handle CA to the level we wanted it, but didn't include a single new tool, how many people do you think would upgrade to the product? Very few. Most would wait it out until the next version came about. That's not good for a company with limited financial resources.

Animator just isn't equipped to properly handle objects on the vertex level. An entire new "mesh" subsystem has to be written to allow users to manipulate geometry on that level and that's not all. The programmers have identified at least 3 to 4 additional instructure requirements necessary to accomodate our requests. Throw those on top of the other demands users are making and EITG rapidly gets overwhelmed. We're still wanting 64 bits, better memory management, a multithreaded Camera, a new interface, and so forth. So EITG is forced to balance each upgrade with infrastructure enhancements, new tools, and workflow upgrades. Each tends to rely on each other. New tools are dependant on infrastructure enhancements, UI and workflow upgrades tie into new tools a bit, and so on.

So there's a fork in the road so to speak with the advent of Tesla. Here we're getting an entire new modeling programming, rewritten by the original author of Modeler, on a new infrastructure, new kernel, and with modern OS features. A decision must be made as to what makes more practical sense. Divert CA animation requirements to Tesla and groom it to become the next flagship application or rebuild Animator. This has been a big debate in the EITG war room for a while now. Which is going to be more beneficial? There are big advantages for each.

Brad is dedicated to keeping EIAS alive and going forward with Tesla. The questions that remain are in deciding which direction to go, and where to specialize each application into what it does best.

Everything that is being done for EIAS v8 is needed and the enhancements being put in place will make it an even stronger package still. There will be tools in there that will benefit the CA user, but I don't see v8 as the CA be all end all. There is just too much that has to be done.

[cjberg]

I must be missing something? In the Plug-in SDK, there is vertex access? Maybe "properly" is the operative word?

Cj

Animator just isn't equipped to properly handle objects on the vertex level.

[Vizfizz]

CJ,

Though I'm not a programmer, I understand it as such:

Within Animator, there is no direct select method of manipulating an object on the vertex level within the actual work windows themselves. Yes, the plugin SDK allows vertex manipulation, as seen in Paralumino's geometry tools and through the various morphing tools EI has, however this does not address the complete problem.

In CA we want minute control over every aspect of our models and direct interaction with them. Tools like various spline manipulators, lattice control verts, clusters, vertex selection and so forth all require a method to select those items inside the work windows themselves. Image if you had to open a plugin window everytime you wanted to move and animate a cluster or control point. Not very effective...not to mention it could potentially slow workflow down to a crawl.

The meshing subsystem required in Animator would keep track of all these control points and vertices on a level that's managable and realistic. Remember, Animator was never originally designed to do this. There was no need to control an object on the vertex level because of Animator's reliance on an external modeler. Animator moves objects around on the object level ... not on the component level. The 'mesh' subsystem would create that component level for us.

[AVTPro]

There's no need to add connection editor without virtual sliders or custom attributes. It's about workflow. Every CA project has "production" concerns. Things like increased interactivity and speed when geometry is hidden impacts "production jobs" as it does "CA projects".

Brian's right about me. As much as I want CA features, I clearly posted on the beta board that CA features are useless without improved "production ehancements". Every CA project has production/management concerns. Toon need occlusion and multipass just as much as cars renders. CA is dependent on a solid kernel and workflow infrastructure for smoothly handling the characters calculations. CA features are not one component onto itself. It's workflow dependant on a interwoven chain of features of the total pipeline.

I ditto'd 3DArtz was to say "Hurry Up and Don't forget to say thanks for waiting" :)
I say that knowing there's a lot more users more loyal or singluraly dedicated than I.
Though I have used EI since verson 1.5 , I use other tools besides EI.

Last point, EI isn't only app with a restless mob of users. ZBrush Mac Users have be waiting for a OSX release for a year after PC users. Not a word from Pixologic. (excluding Aurick)

Least we got Brian :)

[NorthernLights]

Marketing
Sales
Marketing
Sales
Marketing
Sales
Marketing
Sales
Marketing
Sales
Nuff said.

[Vizfizz]

Thank you Blair.. that is right on the money. We'll get those features eventually... but without those two features you listed... it won't happen.

[DickM]

Well without some of these features, sales might be tough. Tough thing to balance I'm sure. But I agree, EI's marketing definitely needs a lot of help.

[3DArtZ]

Marketing is like a gun.
The bullets are the features and direction of the software that you
can shoot direct towards the users/potential users.
Right now, EI's gun shoots plastic bullets.

[Vizfizz]

I wouldn't say EIAS is shooting plastic bullets. It just has a limited caliber and a marksman that isn't quite proficient yet. In the right hands, even small caliber munitions can kill. If we want more...we either have to up the caliber or get a better rifleman.

Personally, I'd rather we have artillery... but perhaps one day.

[Vizfizz]

So why don't we move on from this tired topic of what EI doesn't have and move onto something more productive.

v7 has some great new tools (lets use them), v8 is promising more (and I'll share those as soon as I can), Tesla is around the corner (I'm trying to get Brad to give us some sneak peeks), Sonica is beta testing, and I'm running a contest to give away an iPod. Half the reason EIAS image suffers so much is because of how much EIAS users like to keep pointing out what's still missing. I'll agree its important to identify what we still need, but at the same time, its counter productive especially after a recent release. It makes us look like an ungrateful bunch. I think its more the psychology of wanting EI to be back on top that gets us always pointing out its flaws.

I think the developers are making good strides, though I'm always eternally optimistic. Can I get an amen?

[PaulS2]

Being a software developer has to be a tough job.

There isn't one piece of software I own who's user-base isn't like this (at least to some degree) or forum isn't full of 'what's missing'.

It doesn't matter which forum one visits, it is always full of complaints and "I wants"...some have a little more positive voices mixed in but the EI forum isn't particularily different than others. Just not as busy.

[3DArtZ]

PaulS,
hold on, I'm not complaining about a minor this or that.
EI itself, through VizzFizz has mentioned that:
Originally Posted by Vizfizz
CJ and Richard,

developers found a considerable amount of internal infrastructure work needs to be done in order to accomplish those high level CA and vertex level features.

this is no small complaint. One could read this as EI being the betamax of 3d software. Basically the developers just "didnt get it" when the other guys were making the infrastructure changes and updates to thier apps.

Now I know that no one likes a crybaby playing like a broken record player. But I've got a lot of EIAS pride and built up frustration that the software I've been pumping money towards is just finally seeing what needs to happen.

If I could go back 5,6 or 7 years, I'd move on. But Ive got too much invested in workflow to just go somewhere else. So, coming to the end of my crying.... Its about friggin time EI and please hurry up!

Mike Fitz
www.3dartz.com (http://www.3dartz.com)

[Vizfizz]

Paul,

Perhaps.. but to be honest, our CGTalk forum has been doing quite well. The number of posts are increasing and EI's Forum has been getting more and more visitors. I think the interest is there its just easy to always want more. Last time I checked with Brad, EI's site was averaging 1500-2000 hits a month. That's respectable.

[Vizfizz]

Mike,

Frustration noted....and I don't want you to think that I think you're being a whiner. You've got a rightful reason to be concerned. I'm just trying to point out that EITG is moving...probably more so than it has in years. That may still seem small against its competitors, but I really think Brad has considerably more focus on what needs to be done than Dwight ever did.

The infrastructure work is important. But it has to be done on a limited staff...plus there also has to be new tools in the mix in order to sell the next version. Ultimately an infusion of 250k would be really nice and it would fix a lot of problems...but that's not available right now...but it could be especially if we keep addressing these major issues. I think Tesla will go a long way to help EITG get back online. Getting our modeler back will get EI out of the "specially application" status and provide a complete solution again.

[Vizfizz]

this is no small complaint. One could read this as EI being the betamax of 3d software. Basically the developers just "didnt get it" when the other guys were making the infrastructure changes and updates to thier apps.

www.3dartz.com (http://www.3dartz.com)

I wouldn't place the "blame" on the developers, but rather a complacent management team and a parent company that went belly up. Combine that with a disgruntled user base and a little black listing from industry groups and you've got our current situation.

I'm here to tell you that EITG is not the same company anymore...but it has a legacy it has to deal with. Brad's position on that is; "that was then, this is now". He's sticking with it and promises change. Gone are the days of frivolous spending. From what I've seen, and after talking to him personally, I believe he can do it. It just takes resources. That's the tough part.

[AVTPro]

PaulS,
hold on, I'm not complaining about a minor this or that.

this is no small complaint. One could read this as EI being the betamax of 3d software. Basically the developers just "didnt get it" when the other guys were making the infrastructure changes and updates to thier apps.
Its about friggin time EI and please hurry up!

Mike Fitz
www.3dartz.com (http://www.3dartz.com)

I hate this phrase but I am going to apply it here. "I feel your pain"..argh. I said it. Only because really, I do. I have been there.

When your livelihood, creative aspirations, money and plain pride is riding on software that has had setbacks it's despairing to say the least. Especially when it was the leading software on the Mac for Professional 3D work in Hollywood. It's was painful even incorporating other software because of EIAS LOVE.

Set backs happen but so do "Come Backs". EI is setting itself up for a come-back with the internal restructuring needed to take it higher. Tesla is that very internal restructuring frame work for a "Come Back". The lost of EIM was a setback and so was the "Play" managerial era. Brad seems to be the Play ComeBack. Sometimes just takes the right people. Brad seems to be the Steve Jobs of EIAS...so to speak :)

As Apple Mac users we have seen "great" companies tedder on the brink of obsolence and come back up to the top of the heap with a vengenence as a hot commodity, moneymaker, Earth shaker. But it's a process. Doesn't happen over nite. Sometimes you have to go down to come up.

When your on the "Down Low" you have to count the good points (the blessings). The small steps are really big ones. Kernel rebuiding is a much bigger accomplishment than adding CA featurettes after the core is in place. Adding 10 CA features will be much easier and effective once old code has be rehashed. Long as they are doing it EIAS has good future.

Here's the real truth, Electric Image users are still landing major industry clients, getting work done, doing commericial and movies. The gallery rocks. New release are coming out with key SOTA rendering feature. Awards are still being won.

Gotta to count the good with bad. There's still lots of great things happening with EIAS. I still use it for CA. Yes, I have incorporated other software where it lacks so I am not as stress. I had to find a UV editor and modeler after EIM but there's still plenty there in EIAS 7.0 that I use currently and things are getting better.

Before I used Maya, I used Wing3D and even Blender. There's inexpensive means to supplement (UV, Modeler) and reduce anxiety until the "really" good stuff hits again :)

Movies are still being made in EIAS...Ok...well being planned ...bout to be..ha.

[AVTPro]

I wouldn't place the "blame" on the developers, ...and a little black listing from industry groups and you've got our current situation.


True. it was a set-back having nothing to do with the quality of the software.

As heresay would have it, Info was leaked to the masses that EI was an affordable, production oriented SFX software used by a leading FX big house in Hollywood. Their secret weapon had been exposed and they penialized EIAS by giving all licenses the BOOT.

We on our own now...best thing is to keep doing great stuff.

But I miss seeing EI in the Cinefex mags., gave it Hollywood crediblity.

Guess we are going to have to produce our own Hollywood Hits! :)

[Vizfizz]

Oh....it was more than that. There was definitely some corporate favoritism and agreements going on, some broken promises made by certain vfx executives, some hot headed responses, and some poor decisions made. This turned the internal tide against EI (understandably considering EI's responses) and dozens perhaps hundreds of artists took those sentiments into the future. Fast forward to today. Those artists are now running companies or are in senior positions and have bad memories of EI and refuse to use it. Those who stuck with it got burned by Play and its vaporware promises. More users lost. Complacent EI management kept it alive, but didn't really move it forward correctly...this resulted in more user slippage.

Brad is the first CEO of EITG that seems to be doing something about it. I think he has the will...what he lacks is the means. It isn't the 1990's any more and EI's market share has been squandered. So, he's taking the only logical course of action.

1. Consolidate first
2. Increase revenue streams
3. Bring back successful technologies
4. Find potential investors
5. Diversify

Somewhere in there, a new marketing and sales plan has to be put in place. The future of EI doesn't lie in recovering old users, its creating a market in new ones.

[Reuben5150]

CJ

Some of the things that I've seen that are being put into place for v8 includes UI improvements, 64bit support, more API enhancements, a large number of user requested workflow tools, additional render capabilities for Camera, OpenEXR, and so forth. From what I can determine, the intent with v8 is to round out the package and provide a more solid base to expand the program on.



That's probably a good idea actually, its just a pitty something more radical cannot be done with the GUI, even a good skin job- just to give a more modern look would do a lot of good, visual appearances are important IMO, its been i long time since anything major has happened in this area, if ever...

Reuben

[AVTPro]

Tradeshows, Exhibits, SIGs? Schools seem to be a slow turn around.

Well, I figure you know what "really" happened. Just as people like you and Tomas and other industry pros know how valuable EI is in a production house. I mean EI in action really getting things done in previs and production.

I don't advertise so I don't have much to say there. But I do know business is about RELATIONSHIPS. So it's best to treat people well, you never know when the tables will turn. As you say, lots of those low level artists are now "running the show" or heads of departments or have influence on scouts looking for teams. Not everybody has a forgive and forget attitude. What goes around often comes around...rather quickly if you ask me.

I thought Brad was Big Daddy War-BUCKS...I mean had DOUGH to throw at EI?
Even so, it's best to seek funding as long as they don't dictate to much.

[cjberg]

I would really like EITG to listen to the requirements of it's users. My requests for tools is not because I want them, it is because I am going to be forced to move to another app because EIAS is lacking them.

Example... I model a character in EIM, pose that character in EIAS... because of lacking tools, I bring that posed character into Modo for corrections. My request for better IK and weightmaps is very, VERY, important to me.

I understand working on underlying architecture, but how is that a "feature"?

Cj

[Vizfizz]

CJ,

Without specific infrastructure enhancements, EIAS isn't capable of performing some of the features we require as character animators. None of these features are impossible, they just require the foundations to be there to implement. Slowly but surely, these infrastructure enhancements have been making their way into EI as part of regular upgrades. For example, the plugin APIs have been expanded to permit non-modal windows and there is improved interconnectivity between plugins and the host package. Xpressionist was the first plugin to really take advantage of this with EI's deformations. Now a XP script can drive a deformation in realtime. If plugin manufacturers take advantage of this, we should eventually start seeing plugins that can remain open, allow interaction with the host, and communicate between themselves. Imagine, for example, keeping Dante open and altering the parameters on the fly and seeing particles update in the host package rather than having to close the plugin interface. Theoretically, I believe this is now possible.

The meshing subsystem Animator requires is necessary for Animator to understand what it means to control something on the component level rather than just the object level. If we want tools to draw splines, create clusters, have lattices, and to reshape geometry on the vertex level, Animator has to be taught how to understand all of that. Right now, it doesn't need to because it relies on an outside modeling package to manipulate geometry. That's a real bummer for the CA animator cause a lot of our work requires vertex level manipulation.

When Tesla comes back into the picture, there has been some talk about bridging the two applications in a similar method that Lightwave talks to its Modeler through a hub. That's one potential solution...but not a very graceful method. The other option is teach Animator how to do some of that stuff itself...and the last option is to bypass that all together and just pass the CA animation requirements off to a future Tesla incarnation because Telsa has the foundation already in place.

Other foundational infrastructure subsystems in addition to 'Mesh' mentioned by the developers include:

1. Better Data re-routing for improved channel control outside of using expressions. It could also set up cloning scenarios, master/slave capabilities, and so forth. Right now, the user has to script functions like that in XP and that doesn't really solve everything.

2. Hidden plugin technology for dynamic attribute enhancements to an object. These "hidden plugins" essentially permit users to add dynamic attributes to an objects channel data. A sphere that is tapped by Dante as a surface emitter could then access its "emission" channel data without opening the plugin, plus other "hidden plugins" could talk directly to Dante if they needed to. This kind of stackable interaction between these data bridges (hidden plugins) allows a more open system of communication. A cruder example of this now is what's found in Paralumino's geometry plugins. These plugins are designed to stack and talk to each other in order to build new geometry. Trestle feeds Swage, or Braider breaks down an Ubersphere in order for it to become extrusion paths for Swage or Scrim.

I guess the point I'm trying to make CJ is by asking EITG to embrace CA to a degree that is competitive with other packages means EIAS has to make a major evolution. If it doesn't....whatever is added is just another piecemeal patch to entry level CA tools that exist now. We need more.

One other worry is repeating work. There could be means to make minor enhancements to the existing CA system now, but do we want to waste that effort if something better is possible? Its a really tough call. Right now I believe there are several enhancements that can be made to EIAS that will benefit a Character Animator without repeating or wasting work. Hopefully they'll be addressed.

[juanxer]

I wonder what would be the "top ten" features that would attract non-hardcore pros and non-pro newcomers alike the most, by the way. Currently it is hard to see EIAS mentioned even in Mac-based 3D forums, while C4D and even MacLightwave thrive there. I think EIAS has this vague halo of being expensive, difficult, import/export-problematic and things, and there must be some way of dispelling it. I don't know, perhaps adding some small touches that make things easier to everybody (say, AE-style Ease In/out contextual menu commands, which would be grand to have, actually), really bulletproofing things like OBJ import (without relying on third-party plugins). The videotutorials probably are the most important tool to promote (now that I think of it, Spanish forum Macuarium (http://www.macuarium.com/foro/index.php?showforum=17) is in for some caffeinated Ian videogoodness :D).

[cjberg]

The forward IK may be above what the current application can handle... but fixing the weightmap system, and improving the IK solution... I cant imagine needing this. I am not asking for Motionbuilder inside EI, I already own MB, I am pointing out my real world, and others, issues that are crippling. I am more than willing to work around them for the short term, but if you are telling me it will be v9 (2 years) until I could possibly expect improvements, this is troublesome!

To be fair... ( I dont want to claim something without explaining)

Whats wrong with Weightmaps? Even though there should be blending of regions, it does not occur, and if it does, it is unpredictable. This makes it almost completely impossible to control joints, like arms and legs. And if you have a character with large limbs, like a rodent or dog, it is absolutely impossible. Using placeholder bones is the workaround, but it only gets you so far.

Whats wrong with IK? The minimizer is the best IK option, but any of the options produce unpredictable results. I can have it positioned properly, then save the file, when reopened, the solution is completely changed. A foot or hand that was flat to the ground will now be rotated. The pole vector and rotation do not work as expected, and the combination of the three is almost uncontrollable.

Cj

I guess the point I'm trying to make CJ is by asking EITG to embrace CA to a degree that is competitive with other packages means EIAS has to make a major evolution. If it doesn't....whatever is added is just another piecemeal patch to entry level CA tools that exist now. We need more.

One other worry is repeating work. There could be means to make minor enhancements to the existing CA system now, but do we want to waste that effort if something better is possible? Its a really tough call. Right now I believe there are several enhancements that can be made to EIAS that will benefit a Character Animator without repeating or wasting work. Hopefully they'll be addressed.

[jimjam]

Quite a dilemma.

Building CA workarounds into the current EIAS foundation doesn't sound very efficient. And waiting two years for a new foundation sounds intolerable.

There must be a more acceptable temporary solution, like:

Building Tesla as a modeler and FBX renderer

Working a deal to lease leading CA tools to EIAS users at a low price until EI has a better CA solution.

I'm sure you all have better ideas than these...

JM

[Vizfizz]

CJ...those are fair questions and there still are opportunities to block in potential features on the development schedule provided we have a CA familiar programmer that can get the job done. The Igors are more render oriented so the logical choice is Blair. However, his time has been highly capitalized so that means finding a potential alternative. If the Igors get their lighting and render enhancements done along with the 64 bit conversion, they might be able to tackle it. The unknown factor is Ramjac and what they can or cannot provide for v8.

I think, in defense of the developers, they are trying to address the CA question in earnest...fully and completely. I can attest that all agree that CA is important and critical to the success of EIAS. However I agree with you...sometimes they'll gloss over things because there is "too much to do" before something can be addressed so they go with what's safe. I also know they're very concerned about wasted effort. If correcting those issues absorbs 25-40% of the development cycle, only to see their efforts replaced when they really attack CA issues, they think the time would be better spent on potential features that can help draw in new users and remain solvent in future upgrades.

The only way to resolve this issue faster is to have more money to hire more programmers...and Brad is expending his resources. He's footing 6.6, 7.0, 7.0.1, 7.0.2, 8, Sonica and Tesla.

[ediris]

During these few months i have being exploring different 3d softwares,matchmove apps,node compositors. IMOP evryday there are some new tools,some new app doing things in diferent ways , more user friendly but that doesnt mean the final product will look better. Take a look at NUKE the interface is far from friendly,and yet is a great application . Zbrush and Mudbox they both seemed to do the same for me is just a matter of preferences.I dont use neither of them but it will be good if EIAS had some good Zbrush import feautures, so it could be used in a production team.
So what i mean to say is that EIAS cant be good at every little detail of today´s 3D pipeline but it can stand out from the rest. If it is mainly used for its fast rendering capabilities than it could be a good idea to let it be as it is well known, a fast rendering engine and bring TESLA as a modeler but with some animation capabilities where you could pose characters via bones ,UV editor, Camera for previewing textures,etc and use Electirimage for rendering your projects combinig all the capabilities that already has...like .FBX capabilities,Camera Mapping ,Image Based Lightning, Mocon which is by far better than integrating After Effects with Cinema4d. The other day there was someone asking how to export camera data from Cinema 4d to Nuke. EIAS is not a beginners application like everybody speaks about they just dont know the power of this tool but that is what it is a tool that it must be used in several ways to get the respect it deserves.

Edgard Iriarte
Senior Broadcast Designer
EI 2.9cd( Looking to upgrade this year when TESLA ships)

[Vizfizz]

James,

The solution is difficult. I personally think Brad is betting on Tesla to generate capital and new interest in EITG. He has no intention on shelving EIAS and he's fully committed to keeping it alive. We all know we need a modeler back in the picture in order to be seen as a full service package again so I'm completely on board and in favor of EIM's/Tesla's return. It has more priority than CA and too be honest, I think it has more priority than any other potential upgrade. Now some may argue and say no, we don't need it that badly...but I don't think so. Kishore is a talented guy and he's providing the foundations for something new. Tesla is the key to the next generation of EIAS users.

Now lets consider this. Tesla is due around the May time frame. If it goes over well, a version 2 of Tesla could hit the shelves around the same time v8 is released at the end of the year. Could a v2 Tesla have CA animation capabilities? Not realistically. But it could have some kind of kick butt vertex manipulation tools and potentially some kind of bridge to Animator. As mentioned this is not the most elegant solution, but it is the most obtainable. At that point, depending on how things are going, a choice will have to be made as to where CA will ultimately land.

There's a lot of things to consider.

[AVTPro]

I wonder what would be the "top ten" features that would attract non-hardcore pros and non-pro newcomers alike the most, by the way. ... The videotutorials probably are the most important tool to promote (now that I think of it, Spanish forum Macuarium (http://www.macuarium.com/foro/index.php?showforum=17) is in for some caffeinated Ian videogoodness :D).

Very good point. CoSigned.

[AVTPro]

CJ,
Xpressionist was the first plugin to really take advantage of this with EI's deformations. Now a XP script can drive a deformation in realtime. If plugin manufacturers take advantage of this, we should eventually start seeing plugins that can remain open, allow interaction with the host, and communicate between themselves.

Shameless Plug Ahead: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_8izxCbK2M

The Deformer Rig DVD utilizes this technique to improve animator interaction without going back in forth in the deformation window. The DVD also presents info on how to quickly resolve many problems CA animators encounter like IK shifts after reopening a project, and non responsive weightmaps. Not saying those problems don't exist but I took the time to show everybody what causes it, and how I quickly resolve them. Twenty minutes on a DVD section is better than an hour trying to fix it.

I sell the DVD so I can't openly divulge the info, but what I can say is. There was a wmp problem with the Puma Porcupine (a rodent) in EIAS. However the problem stemmed in Maya with my geometry. Maya could fix it because Wmps are better there, but it was my fault that I missed stitching edges in a crucial deformation area. EIAS couldn't resolve the gaps in the armpits.

My point is, eventhough IK jumping problem is resolvable, it shouldn't happen. Moreover, EI could have better fall off on weightmaps.

Fixing Wmps would not be an ENHANCEMENT but a bug fix. It should not be dependant on internal recoding of the core system. If anything, I believe it was core system changes implemented during the FBX upgrade that offset it in the first place. A patch would be inorder here, regardless of the effort. This is not something that should linger because it's harming your user base attendance. Just "Put it back like it was". Unless the FBX upgrade has totally rearranged the wmps system so that it can't be easily tweaked, and must be over-hauled, (which I believe it did also explained in the DVD) then it's going to frustrate users. Unless...(repeat DVD blurb here.)

If I hadn't found fail safe solutions and workflows to all but eliminate abrupt weight map fall off I couldn't use EI for CA. I refuse to use bones to control hanous stray verts.
Maya has a direct selection and manipulation of single verts. EI CA animators are not asking for that. We are asking to correct a problem which didn't exist in previous builds. It was a problem that was incidently created. That's not a feature request...but a bug fix.

Again, I throughly documented the problem in my DVD, and presented solutions. I would be glad to share that part of the videos which identifies the problem. I have also heard rumor of plugs that not only resolve EI wmps but also enhances feature set.
it's somewhere in limbo.

The meshing subsystem Animator requires is necessary for Animator to understand what it means to control something on the component level rather than just the object level.

Speaking of enhanced plugs, I keep Endless Trooper so long because it was the only EI plug that I have know to allow users to select vertices with EI having no "Mesh" system.


When Tesla comes back into the picture, there has been some talk about bridging the two applications in a similar method that Lightwave talks to its Modeler through a hub. That's one potential solution...but not a very graceful method. The other option is teach Animator how to do some of that stuff itself...and the last option is to bypass that all together and just pass the CA animation requirements off to a future Tesla incarnation because Telsa has the foundation already in place.

I'm not in favor of the LW Hub pardigm, not Animator because thrown away and completely rebuilt on a modeler.



I guess the point I'm trying to make CJ is by asking EITG to embrace CA to a degree that is competitive with other packages means EIAS has to make a major evolution. If it doesn't....whatever is added is just another piecemeal patch to entry level CA tools that exist now. We need more.

Fix Bug or buy DVD. One thing, you can't do clean characters without wmps.


One other worry is repeating work. There could be means to make minor enhancements to the existing CA system now, but do we want to waste that effort if something better is possible? Its a really tough call. Right now I believe there are several enhancements that can be made to EIAS that will benefit a Character Animator without repeating or wasting work. Hopefully they'll be addressed.

They should be forthcoming about the problem. I have shown it to Matt. It was a long time before they acknowledge the problem exist. Tomas and I investigated both problems, though IK problem wasn't repeatable.

Sorry to be SO FRANK but the wmp problem has been a deal breaker for many. it's very detrimental that this has been allowed to exist. Really you guys plugged the rug under our feet with that one. Please patch it.

[3DArtZ]

Alonzo,
when you mention IK jump, are talking about the pole vector issue or are you
talking about rotation of model in and the world coordinates make the IK chain flip, or both?
Just curious as none of that should be happening....

btw, all your points are my dittos:)

Mike Fitz
www.3dartz.com (http://www.3dartz.com)

[halfworld]

So this ten things thread is really just about 1 thing EI needs... A better CA system.

It's in the queue,
Ian

[AVTPro]

So this ten things thread is really just about 1 thing EI needs... A better CA system.

It's in the queue,
Ian

Or the one thing EI CA system needs is a quick wmp fallout tweak :)

[AVTPro]

Alonzo,
when you mention IK jump, are talking about the pole vector issue or are you
talking about rotation of model in and the world coordinates make the IK chain flip, or both?
Just curious as none of that should be happening....

btw, all your points are my dittos:)

Mike Fitz
www.3dartz.com (http://www.3dartz.com)

Hey Mike,

You have the DVD right? Do you have "any" problems with IK?

Actually I was broaching the comments posted here about "Change IK solving after saving a file". Tomas asked me about the same thing once. I covered it in the DVD which is for "sale" so I won't openly go over the material in forums. But I can assure you there are many such solution in the DVD. Of course Tomas has a crew of EI users so he has the DVD. There should be no problem if you had the DVD... actually let me change that...if you have the DVD and "watch it". :)

People don't like boring details I know but it's better than the 2 months it took me figuring it out when I first started rigging. Actually I thought they fixed the problem. I dont' care if anyone else post the info, it's just a conflict of interest for me to do so.

[3DArtZ]

Alonzo,
no worries on my end, I do have my own solution. But since I dont have your CD I don't know.... they might be the same solution to the ik stuff I was asking about.

I transfered my IK rig from Animation:Master to EI to handle the pole vector issue, which
basically dynamically points the pole vector at a target which acts as the roll handle for the
entire arm.

Unfortunately, I can not justify using EI over A:M when I need to animate characters.... which leaves me longing to be able to use EI's render.

[AVTPro]

Oh Duuhh!!! You sell your own rigging CD :)

I didn't know AM could export IK to EI. cool. Sometimes I wmps in Maya and tranfer FBX to EI. Then I don't have to deal with naming joints...opps. TMI :)

I would trade you DVD if I used AM. I believe in barter. But EI and Maya I think will do it for me. and ZB. I hear ver3 is in beta :)

[splitpoint]

So this ten things thread is really just about 1 thing EI needs... A better CA system.

It's in the queue,
Ian

Actually I couldn't care less about CA. Count my vote for better support for multiprocessor rendering and 64 bit support. Oh, and fix the quicktime/camera mapping gamma issue.

[3DArtZ]

I'm pretty sure you're requests are going to be solved long before we see any CA development happen within EI.

[ediris]

GUI.Dockable windows,customizing options (like any other modern quality software)
Import/Export capabilities,needs a dramatic improvement.
Particle System( a real one)
Cloth,fur an a liquid system.
As there is no possible way to have an integrated modeler because that will required a lot of money effort than i will expect the modeler be a very nice new product with all the foundations that had the EIM when 2.9 came out but enhanced to the nth power.

Edgard

[Vizfizz]

I think folks are going to be quite happy with Tesla.

[FelixCat]

Yes, please, we do really need some happynes arround.
FelixCat

[futagoza]

What i´m most curious about and also a bit concerned about is, what happens if Tesla will be the killer app in general, compared to ViaCAD and MoI for example, if it fits in this price range. Do we have then a lot of new people showing off stuff modeled in Tesla and rendered with other apps at the EITG gallery, killing somewhat EIAS. Or will be Kryptonite EITG´s new secret weapon, when it comes to rendering and combined with Tesla?

BTW. What kind of program will Kryptonite be?

Just to curious!

Regards
Stefan

[FelixCat]

Sorry, double post.
FelixCat

[cjberg]

Yes... but in the mean time, there are pills for that.

Yes, please, we do really need some happynes arround.
FelixCat

[dieGolum]

I'd suggest:



-Some way to provide a "one button-occlusion pass" or something that can be integrated into the Layer Shaders output without needing to adjust materials and save an occlusion pass-oriented version of the project apart. Or at least some way to temporaly override all objects' Materials and set them as neutral. It's mostly about having a "one button-Ian's OP recipe" :).

.

Hi,

For me the most powerful thing with EIAS is the Incredible beautiful and fast Phong and Ray-tracing render, this make EIAS a unique piece of software. And I need to said that the GI render it is great for emulate the reality but not for fantasy. I actually do my architectural work and product visualisation With C4D and V-ray very easy to use and fast to render, and my clients say all ways: but this is a photo or 3d? But now we are working in a 50 min 1080p fantasy animation movie with a lot of character people, motion capture and 8-15 million polygons. All the movie will be rendered in EIAS Phong and Ray-tracing because it is really nicer and faster than all other softwares: 1 min per frame in EIAS and the same project in C4D ray-tracing is 10 min per frame!.

I find that EIAS needs to have a real occlusion system to use with Ray-tracing renders. the actual GI occlusion solution is very slow to render and a big amount of extra work if you are working in a animation film with a lot of cameras. What i would like is a occlusion system faster, easier and better than GI occlusion solution.

And something like C4D Mograph module could be really nice.

A tracer tool to convert to path the movement of any polygon or vertex and combine it with something like Swage also could be super nice:)

Cheers
Diego

[Vizfizz]

What i´m most curious about and also a bit concerned about is, what happens if Tesla will be the killer app in general, compared to ViaCAD and MoI for example, if it fits in this price range. Do we have then a lot of new people showing off stuff modeled in Tesla and rendered with other apps at the EITG gallery, killing somewhat EIAS. Or will be Kryptonite EITG´s new secret weapon, when it comes to rendering and combined with Tesla?

BTW. What kind of program will Kryptonite be?

Just to curious!

Regards
Stefan

DISCLAIMER: This is my opinion ... not official EITG policy.

EIAS won't disappear. As we know, EIAS is a system of applications. Animator, Rama, Camera and Transporter. When Tesla emerges, we'll be able to add that back into the mix and the system (EIAS) will be complete again.

However, its important to provide Tesla as a separate technology so EITG can have another revenue stream outside of EIAS users. EIAS will remain in place and developed as normal because it contains Camera. But here's what I predict. EITG will eventually write hooks into Tesla to access Camera too. How are you going to get Camera if you don't buy the rest of EIAS too? There's a pretty good incentive right there to buy the rest of the lineup. The other option would be to just sell Camera by itself to Tesla users.

The only application who's "future" is uncertain is Animator's. No one wants to see Animator shelved but the question remains: Is Animator the proper foundation to build character animation capabilities on or should it remain an object level, hard surface program? (In which its quite good at). EITG knows it needs CA tools, but in its current incarnation, Animator has its limitations.

This is what I presented earlier on. Do we bridge Tesla and Animator through a hub, completely gut Animator's infrastructure to support vertex manipulation and advanced CA tools or do we eventually pass the character animation baton onto a future version of Tesla and only "fix" existing CA tools in Animator. I don't think its wise to have "two" animation applications however...it could become really difficult to sort that out marketing wise.

There is simply NO reason to drop Animator. But there are plenty of reasons to re-evaluate its role in EITG's lineup. The other thing to consider is it will be a while before Tesla could ever possess its own animation capabilities so we still need Animator. In that time its possible that things will have advanced enough for Animator to support advanced CA. Its all dependant on where EITG wants to focus its efforts...and its all about resources.

As for Kryptonite...I can't comment on that technology yet.

[Vizfizz]

Hi,

And something like C4D Mograph module could be really nice.

A tracer tool to convert to path the movement of any polygon or vertex and combine it with something like Swage also could be super nice:)

Cheers
Diego

Actually, the Paralumino lineup of plugins, along with their animation features, gives EIAS quite a bit of Mograph type capabilities. When combined with even more 3rd party plugins, the potential is quite profound.

As for a tracer tool... some of that functionality could be found with Braider. But without the abilty to select faces and vertices within Animator, its not possible to do what you're requesting.

[Vizfizz]

Actually I couldn't care less about CA. Count my vote for better support for multiprocessor rendering and 64 bit support. Oh, and fix the quicktime/camera mapping gamma issue.

64 bit is being addressed for v8. (So I'm told)

[juanxer]

I guess EITG will go the Modo route: define first a good infrastructure that eventually allows for animating any data attribute, start by implementing a modeler, and then go adding things to that step by step.

Having two animation apps to develop for a while surely will be costly, but I don't know how it can be avoided. If Tesla manages to be successful as a standalone product…

Kriptonite! Arrrgh, stop teasing us (DON'T!!!).

(could that Camera-Mapped Occlusion Pass plugin of old be resurrected for v7.x?)

[nibeck]

This is a great thread, and one of the underlying issues if that of market share and finances. EIAS has been around a long time, and they started as a multi thousand dollar app in what wa sthen a completely different environment. My idea???

Drop the dongle, provide tools as almost free for education. Will you loose some actual sales?? Yes, but you will also build a tremendous amount of market awareness. All of the recent RIAA and DRM issues surrounding digital music dostribution should be an indication that times are changing. I firmly believe that Phosotoshop would not be where it is if it weren't so heavily pirated.

The current userbase is obviouslt dedicated to the app, and I doubt you would see much change in current revebue streams, but with Tesla and v8 coming, you have an opportunity to dramatically increse the number of "eyeballs" that see the app. This will lead to sales for anyone who is serious, and looking to use this tool professionally.

I know that traditioanlly EITG has been very staunch proponent of their anti-piracy approach, which is admirable, but I also think very old school. Alex Lindsey (former EIAS user at ILM and head of the PixelCorps) was always very critical of EIAS approach relating to this. He makes some very string points in promoting this approach.

Just a thought.......

_mike

[juanxer]

(Your post somehow leads me to a question I asked time ago: was the 3D Tookit experience worth it? Did it stimulate sales? Would an entry-level inexpensive version of EIAS make sense? Not a project files-incompatible version but a feature-trimmed EIAS. Do those things work?)

[Vizfizz]

I can't speak for Brad...but I wouldn't be surprised if Tesla is dongle free.

[nibeck]

Interesting question, and I have no insight into the actual numbers, but there were a lot of users using it. I think in the end the limited features ended up hurting that product. Also lack of plug-in support was a big issue.

_mike

[Vizfizz]

Yes... removing the dongle would potentially devistate the plugin community. But again, with Tesla... its a whole new game.

[dieGolum]

(could that Camera-Mapped Occlusion Pass plugin of old be resurrected for v7.x?)

Yes please, Occlusion 1.5 (shadder) from Konkeptoine needs to be ported to UB ASAP

[AVTPro]

Hey Folx.

I thought about it and had a royal change of mind. Don't want this to be a big issue for animators or Ei.

Hope this helps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ra06Q9h57SE

ReadyRig Deformer DVD

Video #18
Time 14:00

[AVTPro]

No...It's not Christmas :) One more.

Just don't want this to be a stumbling block and hey, It may encourage sales.


Tip 2 from the same video section. Many tips are on the DVD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQanK7gdiSk

Enjoy!

[scottfox]

I respectfully disagree with all this CA for v8 talk. The vast majority of EI users are NOT using it for hi end character animation. Only a few hugely talented people on this board (you know who you are) manage to get nice results using these tools. Tesla, to me,
will be the ultimate CA answer for the future. It makes so much sense. I want soft body stuff as well, but i wont even bother asking animator 8 or 9 to have it because of the amount of work I assume it will take to accomplish. But for Tesla? I will expect it as Tesla grows, I am patient. (Maya keeps me overwhelmed in the meantime) In the mean time, animator is nicely positioned in the price vs capabilities equation. $795 vs C4D $3 thousand something. They can make hey in this area with a few little pushes in the marketing area. Anyway....

On Topic -

#1 #2 #3 - Multithreaded camera for snapshots.
#4 - even More options\integration with after effects!
#5 - BUY out (if you can) or build into EI some 3rd party capabilities in Lieu of a modeling solution (at least mr Revolver and possibly other Paralumino \ konk products)
#5 - robust "image to mesh" type capability.
#6 - OBJ import export without 3rd party product
#7 - mr nitro 3 with true 3d breakup of models that ALSO respond to Rodeo Dynamics
the ability to reverse this as well, great for mograph stuff. Texture capabilities also
#8 - better texture view window that actually works reliably. Maybe a steamroller
capability
#9 - as long as we have it, automated configuration and maintenence of renderama. Have it set itself up and monitor itself. Good for new users to make the yucky task
of manually setting up renderama, especially on 8 core machines which more and more people will have. (but I want #1 #2 #3 before this)
#10 - improved redraw previews for animations and work.

That said, I recently spoke on the 18th in LA in front of roughly 100-150 people at the monthly DMALA (Digital Media Artists of LA) meeting. I showed my work and a how to \ tutorial to the group. I contacted EI and they generously gave away a free copy of EI and extended their discount
of $250 to the rest of the group. Maxon is one of the largest sponsors of this event so I tried to break the ice a little by cracking a joke then proudly admitting my love of EI to the group. After showing my reel, many were surprised that a- it was done in EI and b- EI is still around? I got a call from one company that wanted to buy multiple copies of EI and hire me for training. This is primarily a motion graphics group, advanced at 2d and most of them are searching and beginning to make committments to a 3d package. The biggest question asked to me that I was not thrilled answering was the multithreaded question. I explained how fast camera was and renderama is very easy (once set up) but for snapshot test renders WE ALL DO as we reach our final quality images our 4 and 8 core monster machines are reduced to pint sized weaklings. On the plus side the price and capabilities of EI seemed to be well recieved.

I have some very good news for the community that I will share in the next 2 weeks, tease tease tease.

my first public demo reel is at - web.mac.com/finaleffects

[AVTPro]

Dude that was nasty!

Stuff so crisp I almost got a paper cut.

:)

Request #7 would rock.


If I may, I have two 30" monitor...I would love an EI custom window set up. Where I could just snap did different work layouts in place.

[PaulS2]

Lots of great imagery in there Scott! Good on talking up EI at the Users Group...it can certainly hold it's own in Motion Graphics.

[scottfox]

I hope nobody (alonzo or anyone else) took my personal comments too seriously. I have great respect for the variety of extremely talented EI artists that post here on cg talk.
I feel everyones 'needs' will eventually be met. Just maybe via a different EI path...

[juanxer]

(Oh, a CGList entry reminded me of this: it would be nice if EIA v8 could use normalized values instead of pixel units for glows and glares, too)

[cjberg]

Didnt know you said anything personal? wanted to address 2 things...

1: I/We are not looking for advanced CA tools persay, more so to have the ones in existence to work properly.

2: Again, if I have to wait for a new EI path, which again could be 2 years, that just wont happen. I am hitting brick walls, today. And have been patient for over 2 years.

I do like your list of features, sturdy foundation features.

Cj

I hope nobody (alonzo or anyone else) took my personal comments too seriously. I have great respect for the variety of extremely talented EI artists that post here on cg talk.
I feel everyones 'needs' will eventually be met. Just maybe via a different EI path...

[juanxer]

About dropping the dongle as a way to… er… foment piracy among the not-paying-customers-anyway crowd so that EIAS is better known and gains exposure (as I understand it, and it is an interesting proposition, really), the greatest obstacle is the unavoidable plugin piracy, certainly. If one wanted to reach, say, the Poser and alike-priced apps' crowd, I don't think the dongle would be such an issue: price would, mostly. That's why I wanted to explore the idea of a cut down inexpensive "EIAS Express": sort of a dongled 3D Toolkit whose projects are upward-compatible with EIAS and able to use EIAS plugins (so that it still generates plugin sales). It wouldn't be presented as a learning tool but as a decently featured version of EIAS (say, no Layer Shader capabilities, etc.) that could be attractive for certain markets (archviz, Tesla purchasers, schools, etc.) or as secondary seats. Could there be a market for that? Would it be worth it?

[Vizfizz]

Scott,

I certainly agree with you that EIAS can hold its own in the broadcast graphics department. You're proof of that. Everyone presses for enhancements to EI in their own specialty field. The CA movement for EI has been going on for a little while now and I/we remain steady in the idea that enhancements for CA in EI is necessary to remain competitive against the competition. CA represents entire new markets for EI to appeal to and I think that's necessary for increasing marketshare.

How its done is another story. Obviously existing CA tools in Animator need to be fixed and improved upon, but advanced CA tools are what's in question. Tesla may be the correct answer or infrastructure enhancements to Animator may do it. I'm fine with either way provided one of them happens.

I could elaborate on why CA is needed, but I'd go on and on forever.

[futagoza]

About dropping the dongle as a way to… er… foment piracy among the not-paying-customers-anyway crowd so that EIAS is better known and gains exposure (as I understand it, and it is an interesting proposition, really), the greatest obstacle is the unavoidable plugin piracy, certainly. If one wanted to reach, say, the Poser and alike-priced apps' crowd, I don't think the dongle would be such an issue: price would, mostly. That's why I wanted to explore the idea of a cut down inexpensive "EIAS Express": sort of a dongled 3D Toolkit whose projects are upward-compatible with EIAS and able to use EIAS plugins (so that it still generates plugin sales). It wouldn't be presented as a learning tool but as a decently featured version of EIAS (say, no Layer Shader capabilities, etc.) that could be attractive for certain markets (archviz, Tesla purchasers, schools, etc.) or as secondary seats. Could there be a market for that? Would it be worth it?

Well, not a bad idea, say if we only had PPC Mac´s and PC nowadays. What i mean with this is that a bigger problem might be that newer Mac customers for example with an Intel Chip inside can explore now both worlds of 3D. Like if they wish they could by "Houdini Apprentice HD" for 99,- bucks and don´t have to look for an "EIAS Express" or they buy "Softimage XSI Foundation" for 400+ bucks in case they don´t want to pay 700+ bucks.

I think in the past EITG could always count on loyal Mac-PPC customers (i mean because the majority is mac based), but this might has changed now...?!

Regards
Stefan

[AVTPro]

Since Tesla is a new framework necessary for new CA features, it would seem EITG would leave Animator as it is, since it already does motion graphics, rendering and some CA. Also render features doesn't seem to be dependant on the new framework and are consistently updated in Animator.

They could port the render module to Tesla once an intergrated modeler and CA enviro of features are done while regaining a new market of animators with a new CA app.

[AVTPro]

I hope nobody (alonzo or anyone else) took my personal comments too seriously. I have great respect for the variety of extremely talented EI artists that post here on cg talk.
I feel everyones 'needs' will eventually be met. Just maybe via a different EI path...

Dude! Next time you're on stage and you get Boo'ed from someone by some tall Black guy with puedo fade hair cut with grey sides . Don't blame me. :)

You were being "truthful" about yourself which I respect greatly. CA has very little to do with your interest.

However, quite honestly, I think EI would have died a long time ago if it didn't have the minumal CA tools that it has now. I don't know one true 3D motion graphic app. The ones that tried to cater to specifically 3D logo animation, to the best of my knowledge defuncted decades ago. I think Typestry by "Pixar" and LogoMotion by Adobe was there.
As much as I respect that line of work...(I use to make a living at it) It's just not enough for a 3D to be a 3D Title animation tool.

For one, most 2D animation packages are 2.5 D and thus encroach upon many 3D effects. with the added benefit of 3D effects. The margins of 2D animation effects are constantly expanding into 3D territory.

Also, usually 3D titles usually need more than just a flying logo, or letters. Its needs 3D water (yours rock) or a 3d building or 3D cloth simulation like yours. 3D logos need a true 3D app, and in order to be a true 3D app nowadays, you have to include CA.

[ediris]

double post

[ediris]

I couldn`t agree more with you Alonzo. thanks for the pointer. Now days is more than just logo animation for a motiongrapher , i like to add some extra to my logos or to a lower third or just some awesome credits done in 3d or a intro there is a lot more than that . EI needs to add some new cool features or try to implement some 3rd party plugins into the core. Now is the time if u want to buy a cheaper product than you might as well get Blender.
For example get Mr.Nitro and and Mr Blobby to the next level. Buy Dante there are so much products that you guys have that have work for a lot of people. You have one of the greatest rendering engines. I do not know why is so hard for EITG.

[rtrowbridge]

(Your post somehow leads me to a question I asked time ago: was the 3D Tookit experience worth it? Did it stimulate sales? Would an entry-level inexpensive version of EIAS make sense? Not a project files-incompatible version but a feature-trimmed EIAS. Do those things work?)

I can say that it inspired at least one person to upgrade... ME! I'm a long-time dabbler in 3D. I started with Imagine 2.0 on an Amiga 500. I switched to the PC version of Imagine and used it until Impulse stopped supporting the program. I saw the 3DToolkit as an affordable option to switch and used it exclusively for a couple of years.

I finally upgraded to the full version (7.0.1) about a month ago and have been having a blast with it. The new features available to me are great. I have a 15 second animation rendering on my dual core laptop right now. I haven't done anything that compares to what I've seen here and in EI Technology Group's gallery, but I do have fun with the program.

Now as for what I would like to see in version 8... I would like to see Mr. Nitro updated. One feature I liked about Imagine was it's version of Mr. Nitro, called "Shredder." It allowed a ground plane to be defined and then give the pieces a bounce factor (as if Rodeo were included). It also gave the option to shred everything, break the object into pieces, or just break the object into its individual child objects.

As for what else I would like, I'm not sure. I'm still over my head learning about the features in 7.0 that are still new to me like GI. Ian's videos have been a great source of information for me.

More robust particles would be nice, though.

[DickM]

I agree with you about Nitro. I've been wanting a ground plane option for the longest time. That's why I ended up having to get Blaster, but it is overly complicated for what I needed 80% of the time. And yes, the ability to blow up objects in a hierarchy, not into peices/chunks, but blow apart the groups themselves.

[Reuben5150]

1 Multi-threaded camera.
2 Render region tool
3 active render.

thats all.

[cjberg]

I forgot a Number 1 important feature...

FBX export

Cj

[DickM]

FBX export is crucial if you want EI and other apps to talk to each other better!!

[atdesign]

Here's 10 off the top of my head

1 MP Camera
2 Integrate/buy out 3rd party shaders/sockets
3 IPR
4 Interactive Tonemapping system through IPR
5 GI based lights
6 Slider control for all numeric inputs
7 Framing selected in viewports keystroke
8 Camera view scale and offsets, horizontal Rise/Fall and Shift
9 HDRIs visible in scene
10 Soft body dynamics and/or pumped up Mr Blobby

[scott8933]

Sounds vaguely like one of the Kitchen Sink plugins that Valis was developing but never came to fruition (though I did run across a crack or two on some Platter-type boards way back when.)

I think Blair bought them out, and folded the most useful into some other of his plugs, probalby threw the rest out as being useless.

Blair, any truth to these scandalous rumors?

Probably been a whole slew of plugins and shaders that never saw the light of public day, as far as EI's heyday went. Would be interesting to collect a museum of them somewhere.


I can say that it inspired at least one person to upgrade... ME! I'm a long-time dabbler in 3D. I started with Imagine 2.0 on an Amiga 500. I switched to the PC version of Imagine and used it until Impulse stopped supporting the program. I saw the 3DToolkit as an affordable option to switch and used it exclusively for a couple of years.

I finally upgraded to the full version (7.0.1) about a month ago and have been having a blast with it. The new features available to me are great. I have a 15 second animation rendering on my dual core laptop right now. I haven't done anything that compares to what I've seen here and in EI Technology Group's gallery, but I do have fun with the program.

Now as for what I would like to see in version 8... I would like to see Mr. Nitro updated. One feature I liked about Imagine was it's version of Mr. Nitro, called "Shredder." It allowed a ground plane to be defined and then give the pieces a bounce factor (as if Rodeo were included). It also gave the option to shred everything, break the object into pieces, or just break the object into its individual child objects.

As for what else I would like, I'm not sure. I'm still over my head learning about the features in 7.0 that are still new to me like GI. Ian's videos have been a great source of information for me.

More robust particles would be nice, though.

[Navstar]

6 Slider control for all numeric inputs

Here here! And make those sliders interactive with IPR and OpenGL. Too many EI plug-ins are like filling out an Excel spreadsheet.

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