Is motionbuilder really necessary for us?

[AdamT]

I'm only speaking from my review of the Buzz vtms, as my copy of MB should actually be delivered today (YEA!!), but....

* MB isn't just for applying a prebuilt rig or for using bvh data, although it has those things in spades. It also has very robust tools for rig creation, including a bunch of constraints and expressions that Mocca doesn't have. That's not to say these aren't possible with some Xpresso wizardry, but realistically I had to admit that it will be a *long* time before I get that far with Xpresso.

* MB seems to have much better motion mixing/layering capabilities than Mocca.

* MB seems to be much better in terms of rig portability, i.e., unlike Mocca you can adjust an existing rig to a new character without completely screwing it up. And the same goes for transporting animation from one character to another.

That's not to say that I won't still use Mocca. SoftIK is great for some things, and PoseMixer is also great. But for me, the MB deal at $200 was just too good to pass up. I suspect I'll learn things using MB that I can apply to Mocca, making it even more valuable. Anyway, I'll provide more feedback when I've had a chance to dig into MB a little.

[JoelOtron]

Hey Adam

since you're the MB master, I have some questions.

I am getting close to landing a project in which we will need to produce 3 commercials that will involve several characters running around in a sort of futuristic arena sporting event. I will be creating the meshes, but a friend who works in Maya will be animating the characters. I am thinking that MB would be a good interface between us if this fbx thing comes to pass in or lifetime.

Neiher of us have much experience with rigging, we will probably hire a rigger, but the issue would be the cross application exchangeability.

Do you see Motion Builder being a good enough solution to this situation?

Otherwise all the rigging would have to be done in Maya.

(hint hint, ideally I'm trying to look out for my C4d peeps, with the intent of keeping this as "C4d" as possible and getting others in the community involved if it works out...wink wink)

[smoke]

Really stupid question, but...
What is Motion Builder?

[Thalaxis]

www.kaydara.com

[smoke]

hmmmm
Ok lots of fluffy sales talk...

Does it operate as a plug-in? Does the $100 Personal Edition work with C4D? What type of pre-made rigs does it have?
Would you still need to use the Claude Bonet tool? do you do the animating in C4D at all? If not can you change it in C4D afterward?
I really want to get into character animation and easier is better, but I don't know if I can even spend $100 right now...

[AdamT]

Originally posted by JoelD
Hey Adam

since you're the MB master, I have some questions.

I am getting close to landing a project in which we will need to produce 3 commercials that will involve several characters running around in a sort of futuristic arena sporting event. I will be creating the meshes, but a friend who works in Maya will be animating the characters. I am thinking that MB would be a good interface between us if this fbx thing comes to pass in or lifetime.

Neiher of us have much experience with rigging, we will probably hire a rigger, but the issue would be the cross application exchangeability.

Do you see Motion Builder being a good enough solution to this situation?

Otherwise all the rigging would have to be done in Maya.

(hint hint, ideally I'm trying to look out for my C4d peeps, with the intent of keeping this as "C4d" as possible and getting others in the community involved if it works out...wink wink)

Hi Joel,

Cool project! I don't know about being the expert before I've even laid my hands on the software! Buuuut, *if* the .fbx support comes in time I think MB would be a great solution. Depending on Maya's fbx support, you could presumably export the boned/animated meshes between Maya and Cinema, and do the animating in MB. Granted, there's a big "IF" in there. It's also possible that the prefab MB rig could suffice for your needs, which would save the cost of a rigger.

I guess I'd be hesitant to recommend this approach, though, 'cause who knows when Cinema's fbx support will actualy be available? But I think it's great that you're trying to keep this thing as Cinema as possible.

[AdamT]

Originally posted by smoke
hmmmm
Ok lots of fluffy sales talk...

Does it operate as a plug-in? Does the $100 Personal Edition work with C4D? What type of pre-made rigs does it have?
Would you still need to use the Claude Bonet tool? do you do the animating in C4D at all? If not can you change it in C4D afterward?
I really want to get into character animation and easier is better, but I don't know if I can even spend $100 right now...
The way it works (or one way) is that you bone and weight your character in Cinema, then export to MB via the still-vaporware fbx filter. If you built the rig according to the MB template (same bones and names), you can simply drop the MB rig onto your character and start animating. From what I've seen it's a great rig. I believe there are only biped rigs at this time. When you're done you export back to Cinema, which receives only the bone animation. I imagine that there would be a zillion keyframes, so it would probably be difficult to edit in Cinema, although I guess you could use Mocca to simplify the curves.

[Zoogie]

thanks Adam , for your insight.
How long did it take to deliver? Please post back some of your experiences with it.
I am definitely all for quicker/ better tools, so long as I can really learn rigging along the way.

[smoke]

Thanks for the info and I'm sorry to partially hijack the post.
I look forward to hearing how it works out for you Adam

[fdb]

If anyone in the UK (or anywhere if you can find a copy i guess) is interested, the latest edition of Digit magazine is giving a free version of MB 4.02 complete with a full years free individual commercial licence!
It looks like a really handy tool even though i cant use it (i'm running OS 10.1.5, mac version of MB only works on 10.2 :( )

[Deestrakt]

@ AdamT : i thought the FBX filter was required for a full integration between C4D & MotionBuilder. is there a FBX support for C4D now ? (or still about to be released ?)

[michaeli]

Originally posted by Deestrakt
@ AdamT : i thought the FBX filter was required for a full integration between C4D & MotionBuilder. is there a FBX support for C4D now ? (or still about to be released ?)

Hi Deestrakt, you can find out more about the FBX plugin for C4D here: http://www.postforum.com/forums/read.php?f=6&i=75555&t=75555

[Deestrakt]

thx, it answered my question. (and i also learnt a lot about building construction ! ;) )

[AdamT]

The fbx import/export for Cinema is still under developement. I think this is not an easy thing.

[willog]

I just received my newsletter from Kaydara and they say that they are proud to announce that there will be support for Cinema 4D in the Summer of this year. :-)

So as long as there aren't any problems we shouldn't have to wait too long.

[JoelOtron]

Great news indeed

[AdamT]

Hey, how come I didn't get a newsletter? :annoyed: I guess it's 'cause I ordered from 3DBuzz.

[willog]

Well I got mine off the Digit mag CD and regged with Kaydara about 2 days ago so I guess I was a bit lucky but I am downloading the new 403 version and will look forward to the Cinema 4D plugin becoming available later this year.
I have just started the 3DBuzz tuts so will hopefully have some experience to use it when the plugin comes out.

[Michel Besner]

You automatically get the newsletter once you register your MB copy...

Please contact support@kaydara.com in order to get a copy.

M.

[AdamT]

Originally posted by Michel Besner
You automatically get the newsletter once you register your MB copy...

Please contact support@kaydara.com in order to get a copy.

M.

Thanks Michel. Great to see you posting here!

[Michel Besner]

There is not a single software that does everything perfectly. This is why with MOTIONBUILDER, we only focus on animation (no modelling, no ray-tracing).
By using our FBX interchange format (already being supported by more than 20 companies - coming soon for C4D), you can actually build a pipeline of multiple applications.
Once you start playing with MB, you will realize that is by far the best character animation solution on the market (character rigging, motion blending, real-time display, etc). Check 3D buzz VTMs (www.3dbuzz.com) to learn more about MOTIONBUILDER.

Most high-end studio combine a series of tools in their production pipeline. With software prices coming down this is now possible for a larger audience.

Scoop: Kaydara will announce very soon a $995 version of MOTIONBUILDER.

Great deal: You can buy now a 1-year license of MB for $100 and then upgrade to a permanent license for another $100
(that's $200 instead of $995!)
www.kaydarastore.com

M.

[AdamT]

A couple questions for you Michel: the $100 PE special is limited to individuals for personal and freelance work. Does this restriction remain after paying another $100 for the permanent license?

Question #2: under the PE license, is it permissible for a an artist who has been hired by a corporation to do freelance work to use the PE edition in furtherance of the freelance contract?

TIA

[Zoogie]

It is indeed great that the President of Kaydara will take the time to answer questions her. Talk about great support!

Thanks Mr. Besner.

[Michel Besner]

1. Nothing has been announced regarding the commercial restriction.

2. Yes, as a freelancer (work for hire, contract work , etc), you can fully use this license.

It's my pleasure to answer any questions you might have.

M.

[pit]

Is motionbuilder really necessary for us?
No - but it´ll certainly make life a lot easier! (Realtime, local blending, retargeting etc. - just scratching the surface here!) And with the 200$ deal and the upcoming C4D support, who can afford to refuse the deal?

@AdamT - A little early I know, but did you have a chance to play with the soft as of yet? First impressions would be appreciated!

Question: Anybody know if MB will support quadropeds in the next release? Would be important for me (- but I guess a workaround is possible anyway?!).

[AdamT]

Hi Pit. I've just started going through some of Kaydara's tutorials and the included VTMs. So far I'm *very* impressed. The GUI reminds me a lot of Cinema's in terms of customization and ability to save layouts. When they say realtime they mean realtime. The prebuilt biped rig is very slick. It's easy to blend IK/FK. Attaching motion data is pretty straightforward. No stability issues so far.

I also hope they add quadriped support. That would be awesome.

[pit]

Thanks, Adam! Exactly what I wanted to hear :) Sounds so awesome - can´t wait for FedEx to ring the doorbell! You stated the "included VTMs" - the ones from BUZZ? Or others? As you can tell, I´m all exited about this - thanks for the feedback :thumbsup:

[AdamT]

I'm pretty excited about it too! :D The included VTMs are from 3D Buzz. I suppose they're all online, but it's nice to have them on CD--three CDs to be exact!

Not sure if you've heard this, but there's also a free, six-part online course from Buzz that you can sign up for once you register. You can even get some kind of certificate of completion. I haven't looked into yet, but I plan on doing it.

I'll tell you, Maxon could benefit a lot from having this kind of follow-on training. I've been hearing a lot of grumbling lately about the lack of info. available from Maxon about the new tools.

[JIII]

I get the feeling that Maxon is thiniking about making some training DVD's

getting some subliminal thoughts about this in my email, as everyone else probibly has to.

[pit]

@AdamT:You got your copy from Buzz, right? Hmmm.....Wonder if the VTMs come along, when you order directly from Kaydera (as I did)? Will check the online course at Buzz - thanks for the heads up on that - sounds promising!

Follow-on training from Maxon would be great, but I don´t think they have the resources or time.
The leap from 7 to 8 has been enormeous - the package has become a lot more complex with Xpresso, Mocca and TP. Not that I mind that at all - it´s cool!! (But to be honest: I really need a "Xpresso and TP for total Idiots" DVD! I´m a no-logic-brain artist/modeler). R8 demands a lot more effort from the user than previous releases and I do understand the need for quality training material, but I really think Maxon, overall, does a great, great job, so I won´t join the grumbling. (And let´s not forget Sreks efforts to educate Xpresso/TP dummies like myself). My guess is, that there simply are no resources available at Maxon, at the moment, to do follow-on training - maybe they should consider hiring some more people :wip: Maybe training DVD´s - I thought Janine was working on one, but I could, very likely, be totally wrong and misinformed.


Btw. there is a new training DVD at www.cgartist.de - only in german I´m afraid. :shrug:

[Thalaxis]

Well, there are a couple of books for Cinema8 in the works; hopefully they'll provide some useful introductory information about XPresso and Mocca and TP.

Maxon has, however, thought about this. I don't know whether or not you have looked at them, but have you seen the groups stuff in XPresso? Basically, you can take a bunch of nodes in XPresso, and configure its input and output ports, and even password lock it.

Just think of what that means for sharing XPresso programming among users... it's probably going to turn out to be one of the most beneficial features of XPresso for the Cinema4D user community in the long run.

[Michel Besner]

Yes,

With the next major versions of MB (summer 2003), Quadripeds will be supported as part of our Character Tool.

We will shortly give more info about improvments and new features of this new version.

M.

[AdamT]

Originally posted by Michel Besner
Yes,

With the next major versions of MB (summer 2003), Quadripeds will be supported as part of our Character Tool.

We will shortly give more info about improvments and new features of this new version.

M.

Fantastic!! You guys have done an incredible job with this software. After just a few days of playing with it I am ultra-impressed.

[pit]

Yes,

With the next major versions of MB (summer 2003), Quadripeds will be supported as part of our Character Tool.

We will shortly give more info about improvments and new features of this new version.

M.

This just keeps getting better and better and better....

[Thalaxis]

Originally posted by pit
This just keeps getting better and better and better....

You got that right!

[pit]

Just think of what that means for sharing XPresso programming among users... it's probably going to turn out to be one of the most beneficial features of XPresso for the Cinema4D user community in the long run.

Hi Thalaxis,

very little progress in that department - I thought we´d be flooded with Xpresso groups in no time when R8 was released. Good chance for the coders/studios out there to make a buck - but so far :shrug: Maybe it´s to early.

[Thalaxis]

Originally posted by pit

very little progress in that department - I thought we´d be flooded with Xpresso groups in no time when R8 was released. Good chance for the coders/studios out there to make a buck - but so far :shrug: Maybe it´s to early.

It will take some time to build the community.

Hm... maybe I should spend some time learning XPresso, since I am after a software developer by trade...

[JIII]

exactly, maybe the software dudes havent realized that there is money to be made.

that or remember darfs comments on how he has found flaws in it? maybe the flaws are pretty serious.

[Thalaxis]

You could call it a work in progress, that's for sure.

[Anadin]

Just insalled my copy of Digit magazine here in the UK - awesome. I too have looked through the movies and been amazed. I wonder if registered users would be able to beta test the plugin as it would sure be usefull testing this with some of my C4D stuff.

[AdamT]

Originally posted by Anadin
Just insalled my copy of Digit magazine here in the UK - awesome. I too have looked through the movies and been amazed. I wonder if registered users would be able to beta test the plugin as it would sure be usefull testing this with some of my C4D stuff.
So you don't still think that MB offers nothing over Poser? Not being sarcastic--I'm interested in the comparison.

[Anadin]

Sorry AdamT but you may have me confused with someone else - I've never used Poser.

Only character tools I haved played with are Character Studio Cinema and now Motionbuilder.

Motionbuilder freelance edition is what I have now installed and registered but I would like to test it with some of the characters I am using in Cinema.

[AdamT]

Originally posted by Anadin
Sorry AdamT but you may have me confused with someone else - I've never used Poser.

Only character tools I haved played with are Character Studio Cinema and now Motionbuilder.

Motionbuilder freelance edition is what I have now installed and registered but I would like to test it with some of the characters I am using in Cinema.

Sorry Anadin. I was indeed confusing you with someone else.

[astrofish]

Originally posted by Michel Besner
Yes,

With the next major versions of MB (summer 2003), Quadripeds will be supported as part of our Character Tool.

We will shortly give more info about improvments and new features of this new version.

M.

When you say 'next major version', I assume that this means that an upgrade fee will be payable?
Fair enough, but what sort of ballpark price is this going to be?

I'm asking because I can't figure out the deal with pricing - We can basically get a full permanent license for $200, but you're also talking about a $1000 version, and I seem to recall that MB cost several k$ not that long ago.

I guess what I'm asking is if I've got the $100 / $200 version, is the upgrade to the next version going to be in the $100 price range or the $1000 price range?

Cheers - Steve

[AdamT]

My interpretation was that the quadruped would be included in the revision that will be included in the $100/200 offer--but perhaps Msr. Besner can clarify.

[anobrin]

Originally posted by AdamT
Sorry Anadin. I was indeed confusing you with someone else.


............ :scream:

.............:shame:

Anobrin/Anadin an honest mistake Counselor.

THE MB CA Tools destroy poser's of course!!!
BUT I can export all that powerful MB character animation DATA
DIRECTLY into DAZ poser pro rigs
and render those versatile Hi-res DAZ humanoids/animals in C4DXL's world class render engine.
So MB is a WIN /WIN situation for me and everyone else who can inject the
CA data back into existing rigs:applause:

(T-rex)
http://66.70.166.29/promo/DinoAE.mov

[Michel Besner]

We will shortly announce a $995 version of MOTIONBUILDER. For $200, you will get a permanent license of this version.

M.

[bobzilla]

anobrin: Was that dino done in Motionbuilder?

[anobrin]

Originally posted by bobzilla
anobrin: Was that dino done in Motionbuilder?

No it was animated in poser pro4
and imported in to C4DXL7.3 for rendering Via the poser
animation plugin for C4DXl.

[JoelOtron]

Huh?
?????


Anyway...

succumbed to the pressure--I just ordered me a copy too!

[AdamT]

Originally posted by JoelD
Huh?
?????


Anyway...

succumbed to the pressure--I just ordered me a copy too!

Prepare to be *amaaazed*!! Man I hope Maxon does a good job with that fbx support.

[pasto]

For the moment Adam, you can't use it with C4D. So ou are just limited to the MB renderer. But it is sure that we will be able to pass it to C4D. But it is better not to wait to benefit from the special offer.
Is that correct Adam ?

thanx

pasto
:D

[JoelOtron]

You will be able to use it wih C4d once the fbx plugin is released by Maxon--which is in the works. In the meantime--if this is something you see yourself using in the future, now is the time to grab it.

[pasto]

OK, I go for it.
Mocca turns me so depressive...

Hope Maxon will publish the "Mocca for really really idiot people like pasto" DVD sometime.

pasto

[astrofish]

If you've got the Digit copy of MotionBuilder and can't install it, this is what you need to do.
This is copied from a post on 3DBuzz by Michel Besner.

---------------------------------------------

PROBLEMS INSTALLING DIGIT MOTIONBUILDER Freelancer FOR PC

It has been brought to our attention that there is an issue on some Windows systems with two file names on the Windows version that may prevent you installing it. Don't worry - there's a simple fix that will get you up and running in no time. Listed below is a simple two minutes fix for this problem that will allow you to install the software.

1. Save the CD to your PC hardrive. The mac os x, 3rd Party and Movies folders can all be removed.

2. Remove the CD from your PC.

3. Now open your new folder "MB402" and locate the file "Kaydara MOTIONBUILDER 4.02".

4. Rename the file "Kaydara MOTIONBUILDER 4.02 - PLE Add-Ons.msi".

5. Now open the folder labelled "windows". Open the folder "x86" and locate the folder "Kaydara MOTIONBUILDER 4.02".

6. Rename the folder "Kaydara MOTIONBUILDER 4.02 - Personal Learning Edition.msi".

7. Now return to the open "MB402" folder and double-click the file labelled "Setup Kaydara Inc." to install MOTIONBUILDER.

M.

---------------------------------------------

Now, if only I could get past the "unable to send license body to mail server" error, I could start playing... Hopefully the licence will turn up by email soon.

Cheers - Steve

[AdamT]

Another tip. If you have a broadband connection (or a lot of patience), you can dowload the clipart CD from 3D Buzz. It's the last file in the second MB VTM--165mb. It contains a bunch of great stuff, like additional characters, lots more motions, etc.

Did anyone who ordered the PE edition get this CD in the box? It wasn't in mine, although the included Buzz VTMs suggest that it should have been.

[Anadin]

Thanks AdamT - I have just started the couse over at 3D Buzz (Got 90% for watching the introduction) :rolleyes:

Just download the next one.

[AdamT]

Hi Steve,
The auto-registration thing didn't work on my end either, but I sent an e-mail as instructed and got the license No. w/n 24 hrs.

[Thalaxis]

Originally posted by AdamT
Another tip. If you have a broadband connection (or a lot of patience), you can dowload the clipart CD from 3D Buzz. It's the last file in the second MB VTM--165mb. It contains a bunch of great stuff, like additional characters, lots more motions, etc.


Hm... sounds like a good reason to go to Starbucks. :shrug:

(A T-Mobile Hotspot gives me about 40x the throughput of my pitiful modem connection to the InterWait.)

[That Adrian Guy]

Sounds good.... but I'm still waiting to see an animation in C4D that was generated by MB.


Anyone?

Michel Besner... I'm sure you have something already to go and import in to C4D, right?

(Not to be a nay-sayer... but pictures and movies speak so much louder than all of these words)


(Just realized this is post number 420, whooo!)

[jimarse]

I'd love to watch those vtm's, but I'm using OSX and can't decompress the rar files or use a CD_Videomag.exe even if I could. Don't suppose any OSX users have figured out a way around this have they?

Anadin- how about you? I see your'e on a mac too.

[AdamT]

Originally posted by That Adrian Guy
Sounds good.... but I'm still waiting to see an animation in C4D that was generated by MB.
Not possible until Maxon finishes the fbx support. Hopefully the $100/200 offer will still be available when that happens.

[That Adrian Guy]

righto

[ooo]

Originally posted by jimarse
I'd love to watch those vtm's, but I'm using OSX and can't decompress the rar files or use a CD_Videomag.exe even if I could. Don't suppose any OSX users have figured out a way around this have they?


I struggled also a bit on OSX but ... Stuffit deluxe 7 is perfectly able to decompress these rar-files. I don't know if the free unstuffer also works?

good luck!

[ooo]

And of course you need this free DivX 5.05
http://www.divx.com

[AdamT]

Yep, the free Stuffit expander worked here (PC).

[anobrin]

Originally posted by AdamT
Not possible until Maxon finishes the fbx support. Hopefully the $100/200 offer will still be available when that happens.

Why wait for MAXON??
get MB NOW!!!:bounce:

and when FBX comes to C4DXL
you will be ready to go

[pit]

I´m with anobrin on this one - it´s a nobrainer, if you got 100/200$ to spend!
Go get it - learn it - and when the plug is out (hopefully) this summer - use it.

[Thalaxis]

That seems to be a very reasonable thing to do... since for $100 now and $100 later, you get a version of MotionBuilder that will include quadripeds... and then there's always Mocca or Messiah:Animate or Mocca for stuff that just won't work with a Motion Builder rig -- unless, of course, the next version includes rigging tools and completely one-ups Messiah:Animate, and makes Mocca mostly redundant... :bounce:

[bobzilla]

I'm probably the only one on this forum who probably won't buy MB just yet. I'm sort of waiting for the other shoe to drop. This whole deal seems too good to be true. Is MB more game oriented in its animation style? It definitely looks cool, but I'm wondering how much back and forth between apps is going to be necessary to get the desired results? With my luck, I'd buy MB and then someone else will come up with an "incredible deal".

Just me thoughts...

[AdamT]

Originally posted by bobzilla
I'm probably the only one on this forum who probably won't buy MB just yet. I'm sort of waiting for the other shoe to drop. This whole deal seems too good to be true. Is MB more game oriented in its animation style? It definitely looks cool, but I'm wondering how much back and forth between apps is going to be necessary to get the desired results? With my luck, I'd buy MB and then someone else will come up with an "incredible deal".

Just me thoughts...

Trust me, you won't find a more incredible deal than the one currently on offer.

My post above was meant to be ironic, as in, you can wait for Maxon's fbx support but it may cost you $795--or the difference between the limited time offer and the the price of the next best deal.

[bobzilla]

What other animation system does it compare to? Maya? Softimage? Is it more for games? I'm just reluctant in general to bu more software. I felt I got burned with the Golem purchase and I have a draw full of software that's gone by the wayside. I just don't want to get sidetracked with yet more "learning" and less "doing". I'm not knocking any software. I'm just hesitent. My animation goal is to do realistic character animation. If MB will help in that, then maybe I should plunk down the $100...

[pit]

Bob - you seem to get something wrong - YOU do the animation, YOU create the style, NOT the software!
I think the biggest achievement of MB is to get tedious stuff reduced. You can start/concentrate on animating in a fraction of the time! As I see it you will get more doing and less learning, in the long run, with MB.

[AdamT]

Bob,

The best advice I can give you is to watch the VTMs on 3D Buzz. If you have a slow connection he'll even send them to you on CD. There's like 6 hrs. of detailed walkthrough there.

I can't compare it to Maya or XSI because I don't know enough about those them. MB is very good for IK/FK animation of (currently) biped characters. It also has a great facility for incorporating bvh animation clips--whether you want to blend them together or blend them with keyframe animation. Of course you can use the mocap files to very quickly create extremely realistic animations, and there's probably no app that does this as well.

Anyway, I'm not making any commissions here--just check out the VTMs if you're interested. Or get a hold of a copy of Digit magazine and you can try it out for a year for no $$.

[bobzilla]

As always you've all been a great help.
I'll check out the Buzz! Actually I did download all the tutorials on Kaydara's site. They have a PDF you can download with all of their tutorials. I just need the software now. I'm on a Mac, so the Digit version won't work for me.

Thanks again...

[Anadin]

Originally posted by jimarse
I'd love to watch those vtm's, but I'm using OSX and can't decompress the rar files or use a CD_Videomag.exe even if I could. Don't suppose any OSX users have figured out a way around this have they?

Anadin- how about you? I see your'e on a mac too.

Jimarse, like someone else said, stuffit expander just did it form me - I have 7.0.3. As for playing the movies, go into the Media folder and you will find two movies, vid_00.avi and vid_01.avi.

You need DivX 5.05 from versiontracker.com or divx.com - you get a divx validator. Drop these two movies on it and it will synch up the sound and then they will play in Quicktime fine.

[ooo]

Originally posted by bobzilla
As always you've all been a great help.
I'll check out the Buzz! Actually I did download all the tutorials on Kaydara's site. They have a PDF you can download with all of their tutorials. I just need the software now. I'm on a Mac, so the Digit version won't work for me.

Thanks again...

The Digit version runs just fine on my mac! Should not give any trouble (OSX)

[flingster]

a review on here for ya all

http://www.insidecg.com/feature.php?id=118

[flingster]

ooh forgot...totally impressed by the presence of their vp on here...can't beat that for commitment!!
:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Chrissyboy]

Originally posted by ooo
The Digit version runs just fine on my mac! Should not give any trouble (OSX)

Hi chaps - any Mac users care to comment on feedback speed in the editor? If this is smoother (like, say, poser's speed) I'll be buying this for sure.

I'm away from my Cinema Mac for a week so can't check the demo, but this all looks fine to me; MOCCA does seem more powerful/flexible but the setup is fiddly and the editor feedback is SLOOW for me anyway.

Cheers - C

[Anadin]

I am using it on a PB 17" (only got Geforce 420 in it) and it is indeed realtime for me :-)

[fxgogo]

Originally posted by bobzilla
What other animation system does it compare to? Maya? Softimage? Is it more for games? I'm just reluctant in general to bu more software. I felt I got burned with the Golem purchase and I have a draw full of software that's gone by the wayside. I just don't want to get sidetracked with yet more "learning" and less "doing". I'm not knocking any software. I'm just hesitent. My animation goal is to do realistic character animation. If MB will help in that, then maybe I should plunk down the $100...

I have to give a laugh bobzilla at your draw of software, me too, and you can use only so many disc's as coffee cup mats. To often we focus on the tools and not the art. Sure it will enable this or that quicker, but the plain truth is we can create great CA in almost any package. And the work that you have to go through to get to the animating part can only help you in the future.

[bobzilla]

My first attempt with 3D was Ray Dream 3D (anyone remember that?), then Poser 3, Animation Master, Ray Dream Studio, which I upgraded to Cinema v5. The first time I considere having anytihng I could work with was Cinema version 6. That was like WOW!

So, hence, my balking at yet another piece of software.

[bobzilla]

...and another MB question. Is there any way to do any kind of muscle simulations in it? I looked through some of the tutorials and didn't see anything. Then again, I really don't know the software that well and wasn't quite sure what I was looking for.

[astrofish]

I've just noticed that the first thing that the "what's new in release x.xx" documents tell you is what bugs they are aware of that are still in the program.

I think that that's a really good attitude to customers.

Most companies prefer to hide away information about bugs and pretend that there aren't any so their product looks better than it is. This means that when something doesn't work you waste ages figuring out that it's the program that's gone wrong not you. Having them listed up front means you know about them in advance and can work around them.

Let's face it, all software has bugs - and the fact that Kaydara are being open about theirs is great!

Cheers - Steve

[Chrissyboy]

Originally posted by Anadin
I am using it on a PB 17" (only got Geforce 420 in it) and it is indeed realtime for me :-)

Thanks Anadin - that sounds good enough to me, better get the credit card out...

C

[jimarse]

I wonder if anyone can answer this for me:

Do you need OSX.2 to use MotionBuilder 4.02 on a Mac, or will OSX.1 do?

(I see in their product brochure on the Kaydara site, it says 10.1, but on Version Tracker it says 10.2 )

Cheers then.

[Michel Besner]

You need to get OS X 10.2 ...

M.

[bobzilla]

Motionbuider seems mostly suited to human animation. How would I go about setting up a dinosaur. Four-legged ones, I assume I can use the quadruped ability that I here will be in a future version, but how about one of the T-rex variety? I't a biped, but kind of a bent over one?!?!? Would it be possible to set something like that up?

[Michel Besner]

You can definitively animate dinosaurs using MB.

And yes, next major version of MB will have a lot more support for quadrupeds.

M.

[AdamT]

Someone on the Buzz or Kaydara forum posted an example of an elephant animation he did by chaining parts of two biped rigs--sort of like two guys in a cow costume. It looked pretty good!

[pasto]

I just received it yesterday (quite fast I guess !!), and I was wondering if it is worth begining to learn it right now.
What about the learning curves of such an app ? Is it long to be able to animate something (compared to mocca for example).

By waiting for the fbx integration in C4D, is it possible to export camera move to MB ? in order to composite the anim with c4d background ?

thanx

pasto

[AdamT]

I think it's pretty fast to learn. I started by viewing all the VTMs, and that gives you a great introduction to the program.

AFAIK camera animation will be part of the fbx import, but that's just a guess.

[flingster]

fbx import plugin part would worry me.
very often software companies promise to deliver this plugin or that...but often also fall short. Now i'm not saying this is going to happen in this case, but you are essentially buying the product for its superior CA abilities which would then be imported into cinema...along with its cross platform ability in any production environment. However if this plugin doesn't arrive or is lacking in import feature set then youre left dead in the water...kaydara has already got its money and there is very little comeback you have...after all you only paid 100 bucks as opposed 4000 or whatever the full price is. Software with large industry takeup eg xsi, lightwave, maya this is unlikely to happen but with cinema this could easily be the case...if kaydara don't see cost benefit in producing cinema version for mac and pc cos the market in there eyes is not big enough or whatever. Add to the fact quadraped support is expected but this essentially sounds like it would require an upgrade...its unlikely the great offer upgrades will be around...again by this time your dead in the water with little choice of get out....call me cynical if you like but these are questions that need to be asked imho.

does kaydara guarantee full implementation of motionbuilder feature set in the cinema plugin?

will there by mac and pc version of the cinema plugin?

are kaydara committed long term to this development track for cinema?

what are costs in upgrading to quadraped support in 6months time going to be, are costs to individual commercial licensees going to skyrocket after this promotion?

Mr President...:shrug:.....your thoughts

[AdamT]

I share some of your concerns Flingster. But ... after having paid my $100 and having seen what MB can do, here's what I think--if the Cinema fbx plugin isn't good enough I would seriously have to consider adding an application that does have useable fbx capabilities, meaning, at least at this time, LW. MB is that good.

[flingster]

man it must be good...you on commision or what!
heh heh.
i just think changing from c4d...bit drastic really...i understand your point and obviously it also depends on a persons requirements.:thumbsup: ....that choice though should not really enter the equation because i assume and it might be a big assumption on my part that you bought it on the expectation that there would be a fbx plugin for c4d....it swould then be disingenuous of kaydara to pull that support in 18months time if they see a shortfall in there expections...again only my opinion...

i also feel for kaydara in some respects as they want to see sales but people may hold off from buying without a clarity in this purchasing decision...kinda catch twenty two!
:shrug:

[Michel Besner]

1. We are working in partnership with Maxon. Maxon is the one developping FBX support for Cinema4D using our FBX SDK. For the functionnality and platform support, please contact Maxon for more details.

2. thru our FBX initiative, we are 100% commited to have every 3d app support FBX.

3. If you buy the PE license, you will get the upgrade to the new version (with quadrupeds) for FREE.

4. Once you convert to a permanent license, upgrade fees for future major versions will be $250USD (this is the next major release after your one-year license is finished). Minor versions (bug fixes) will be free of charge.

We strongly believe that the combinaison of C4D and MB will be great and you won't be dissapointed ...

M.

[Zoogie]

I am sure we have all had these and other concerns, Flingster.
My take on it ... after waiting for a while and finally ordering.. is that "hopefully" by the time I finish with it I would have learnt some serious rigging. Which if FBX in cinema never comes, I would still be able to come into cinema with those skills and hopefully do a better job. (Every day I wait could be another missed opportunity.)
After all , a DVD on rigging etc could cost about $199. There would be no guarantees that one would learn after purchasing this DVD. (havent we all bought training products and realized what junk the were? :) .
Also, forecasting that from the influx of MB into the market, there might come a time when knowing how to use it might make the difference between getting a contract with someone or not. (bare in mind , my forecasting is usually way off :) .
Anyways , after wanting to check out the Digit version and it not being available, I decided, to sink or swim. For me , I think its a calculated risk. Time will tell.

Zoogie,
Just adding to the optimistic confusion.

[AdamT]

Heh, just to clarify, even if I bought LW I wouldn't give up my Cinema license. Also, I absolutely bought MB with the full expectation that Maxon will produce top-notch fbx support. I'm sure it's just a matter of time.

btw, don't you think it's time Kaydara put me on their payroll? Michel?

[flingster]

Michel Besner: can't get fairer than that really. As I said I wanted to hear commitment from the horses mouth so to speak...no offence...I appreciate the time you have taken to respond to our concerns and if one thing swings me to buy MB it would be this contact. Thanks once again for clearing this up.
:thumbsup:

Zoogie: thanks matey...appreciate it..:cool:

[flingster]

can someone explain to me what lipsyncing stuff....MB has?

[AdamT]

Originally posted by flingster
can someone explain to me what lipsyncing stuff....MB has?
I haven't gotten into it much yet, but in a nutshell you import morph targets with the MB template of face markers (not sure how), hook it up to a wave file, and MB uses speech recognition to drive the morphs. I guess it's like Magpie and a few others.

[flingster]

it does seem to have a lot going for it...

(why don't you try selling it to me!!! heh heh....Oooh no sorry you did that already....BIG GRINS)

seriously cheers for that adamt....are you the only one on here that loaded the software...I feel a plan coming on...what you gonna do with it...noticed your posting on anything to do with animation seems to have increased....i can smell intrigue...whatsup....you got a little project you haven't told 'ole flingster bout then....:p

[AdamT]

Originally posted by flingster
it does seem to have a lot going for it...

(why don't you try selling it to me!!! heh heh....Oooh no sorry you did that already....BIG GRINS)

seriously cheers for that adamt....are you the only one on here that loaded the software...I feel a plan coming on...what you gonna do with it...noticed your posting on anything to do with animation seems to have increased....i can smell intrigue...whatsup....you got a little project you haven't told 'ole flingster bout then....:p
Nah, nothing but a few ideas. I've been wanting to get more into CA for a long time, but I just haven't been happy with the tools until now.

[flingster]

damn....

well in that case you should set yourself some clear goal...you know start small etc

easy for me to talk...mr directionless...but i hope you see my point.
:thumbsup:

[JIII]

can anyone clear up exactly this ultra spiffy 100$ offer ends?

it seems like I have head anywhere from june through december.

[flingster]

no sorry.
in digit mag it says offer ends 31 dec 2003 when upgrade will then be $450 instead of $200.

you register PE version...get serial for 1 year...then pay your bucks and get MB Base version...with no time limit on it.
dunno where other date comes from sorry...one thing i can tell you though...mr pres said it would cost $900~ after offer...so don't have second thoughts if you are gonna use it...i would jump now..

[AdamT]

Originally posted by flingster
no sorry.
in digit mag it says offer ends 31 dec 2003 when upgrade will then be $450 instead of $200.

you register PE version...get serial for 1 year...then pay your bucks and get MB Base version...with no time limit on it.
dunno where other date comes from sorry...one thing i can tell you though...mr pres said it would cost $900~ after offer...so don't have second thoughts if you are gonna use it...i would jump now..

I don't know the answer either, but the Digit magazine deal is different from the Buzz/Kaydara deal where you pay $100 now and another $100 before 12/31. It *may* be that there's a June/July deadline to put down the $100. Hopefully Msr. Michel will step in and clarify this.

[pit]

Promotion will end July 31st!

Quote: Michel Besner in the MB section here at CGTalk.

Just read this in the Kaydara forum:
You loose some features, but not necessairly functionnality. for example, the motion blend will not be in the Standard Edition but you will still be able to blend motion and more with the new Story Tool which will be much more powerfull.

Also you will be able to install and run both softwares if you want. Being able to open scenes from the current version in the next one, but not every thing will be backward compatible due to new features.

I can tell you that it is still a good price, that wont last by the way. So trust me, you should jump on this deal.

Bruno Roy
Team leader testing



NO MOTION BLEND!! :annoyed: ............. :cry:

When are the features of the base package announced? Just being impatient here!

[Michel Besner]

1. If you pay $100 for the PE , it will cost you $100 to convert to permanent

2. If you get it from digit mag, it will cost you $200 to convert to permanent

3. The upgrade path for PE userss (MOTIONBUILDER Standard Edition) does include motion blending. We just replaced the older blending tool with a brand new non-linear animation timeline that will be more powerfull, complete and easier to use.

M.

[pit]

We just replaced the older blending tool with a brand new non-linear animation timeline that will be more powerfull, complete and easier to use.


:) :) :) :) :applause: How could I doubt that you had another goodie in store for us?

Thank you!

[nhytro]

Thats sad in a way. I can´t order from 3dBuzz because I don´t have a credit card, so I told a friend of mine to ask one of his relative to get the Digit Mag and send it to me from England thinking that it was the same offer. Why dont´ you have distributers for PE Version in Germany? I´m sure there are a lot of people that would like to buy MotionBuilder here, but are used to doing a lot of transactions without credit cards

:rolleyes:


Originally posted by Michel Besner
1. If you pay $100 for the PE , it will cost you $100 to convert to permanent

2. If you get it from digit mag, it will cost you $200 to convert to permanent

3. The upgrade path for PE userss (MOTIONBUILDER Standard Edition) does include motion blending. We just replaced the older blending tool with a brand new non-linear animation timeline that will be more powerfull, complete and easier to use.

M.

[Thalaxis]

It's not QUITE the same offer... but the cost to you would be the same.

Either way, you end up paying $200 for a permanent license.

[nhytro]

Hmm, but Michael said $100 for the PE offer a few posts up?

Originally posted by Thalaxis
It's not QUITE the same offer... but the cost to you would be the same.

Either way, you end up paying $200 for a permanent license.

[AdamT]

Originally posted by nhytro
Hmm, but Michael said $100 for the PE offer a few posts up?
:hmm: $100 for a 1 yr. license--another $100 for a permanent license.

[nhytro]

$200 and not $100 to upgrade to a Perm. from the Digit Mag Adam.

Originally posted by AdamT
:hmm: $100 for a 1 yr. license--another $100 for a permanent license.

1. If you pay $100 for the PE , it will cost you $100 to convert to permanent

2. If you get it from digit mag, it will cost you $200 to convert to permanent

[Thalaxis]

The 3Dbuzz or Kaydara offers are $100 now, $100 to upgrade.

The Digit offer is buy the mag, and pay $200 to upgrade.

[nhytro]

Oh! now I get it! Sorry for bothering everyone with this issue.


Maybe I need some rest.

:)

[Thalaxis]

At least we got the confusion out of the way :)

[flingster]

NO i'm sorry we didn't?

whats the difference between

MOTIONBUILDER Standard Edition (buzz final upgrade path)

and
MOTIONBUILDER Base Edition (digit final upgrade path)

???

(basically not bothered as both $200 bucks eventually...but if there is a difference between the standard and base editions available through each offer...which is the best?)

thanking you greatly...peoples.
:cool:

[Thalaxis]

As I understood it, the end result was the same product.

[flingster]

are we sure...i mean...different names...narrrr can't be.

cheers...thalaxis....you patient person you...:beer:

[Thalaxis]

I'm mostly sure, but everything that Michel has said so far leads me to believe that they're doing everything they can to expand their customer base, as opposed to confusing them :)

If you want confusing, you should take a look at the flurry of questions that Maxon got hit with when they launched Cinema 8. It was nearly comical. :applause:

:beer:

[kevin3d]

Originally posted by fdb
If anyone in the UK (or anywhere if you can find a copy i guess) is interested, the latest edition of Digit magazine is giving a free version of MB 4.02 complete with a full years free individual commercial licence!

Would that be the May or June issue?

[astrofish]

Digit 61, June 2003

[bobzilla]

Has anyone on this thread started playing around with Motionbuilder yet? Adam, I think you were?? I just looked at the Constraints videos that came with Digit mag (NOT the issue with MB on it?!?!) and it was quite intricate. Didn't seem as easy as everyone was saying. It looks pretty cool, but I don't think anyone should equate the "cheap" price with easy software. There IS $4,000 worth of tech in a $200 app...

Any others with thoughts on this?

[AdamT]

Originally posted by bobzilla
Has anyone on this thread started playing around with Motionbuilder yet? Adam, I think you were?? I just looked at the Constraints videos that came with Digit mag (NOT the issue with MB on it?!?!) and it was quite intricate. Didn't seem as easy as everyone was saying. It looks pretty cool, but I don't think anyone should equate the "cheap" price with easy software. There IS $4,000 worth of tech in a $200 app...

Any others with thoughts on this?

I've played with it some. I think the constraints system is about as easy as they come, but it still requires a little thought and a little work. There's just no way around that in CA. As a caveat, I don't have that much experience with other animation systems. My points of reference are Messiah, Cinema, and trueSpace. MB's constraints are easier to use than any of those three, IMO.

[bobzilla]

Adam: Yeah, I guess once you get the hang of it, it's not too bad, but it seemed like a lot of effort to get the antenna on the helmet of the alien to wobble, which is a no brainer with SIK in Cinema, but you may have more control in MB.

Well, the ony experience I have in CA is Cinema.

Anyway, keep us posted, please. Thanks for your input. We all appreciate it!!

[AdamT]

Yeah, SIK is great for that sort of thing, but it's not really a constraint. I'm hoping we'll be able to use SIK along with MB animation on the same character, but we'll have to see.

[bobzilla]

Yeah...a combination of both worlds would be ideal...then maybe we can all finally get animating!!!!

[astrofish]

IF FBX can store all of the data from an application, and let different apps work with the bits that they understand, _without throwing away the bits they don't understand_, then that would be most of the problem solved.

E.g.
1. Build, bone and skin in C4D, including stuff like SIK, etc.
2. Switch to MB (which ignores the SIK and other bits), but lets you set up the main animation well.
3. Switch back to C4D to see your final animation _with the SIK stuff still preserved_.

I get the impression that that's what FBX is supposed to be all about. I hope so...

Cheers -Steve

[Thalaxis]

Originally posted by astrofish

I get the impression that that's what FBX is supposed to be all about. I hope so...


I think a lot of what you described hinges on Maxon's implementation of the FBX import/export plugin.

Of course, being new to the FBX world, I could be quite off-base, though.

[Michel Besner]

MOTIONBUILDER Standard Edition will be the official name of the "base package"

M.

[kevin3d]

Originally posted by bobzilla
Yeah...a combination of both worlds would be ideal...then maybe we can all finally get animating!!!!

I agree with this...and a point bobzilla made earlier; I don't need yet another software package to learn, unless it enhances my primary toolset. So a big selling point to me re: MB would be the extent to which it COMPLEMENTS, not REPLACES, Mocca. All other things being roughly equal, my gut instinct is to use the char anim system that is fully intergrated with the core app: i.e. Mocca.

However, I guess I'm hearing here that MB & Mocca COULD complement each other IF the promise of FBX is realized.

And, FWIW, the presence of Michel Besner in this thread was enough for me to take time off work to run down to computer store & try to by DIGIT....but we have only May issue now in Ohio...one month behind.

[bobzilla]

Well, I'm still "on the fence" over the whole thing. MB looks fantastic but...I may wait for the Digit mag to come to the US, try it out and see.

Both apps are great. Just don't know if I have time to learn the "next big thing" right now.

IMHO...

[JoelOtron]

I just installed MB 4.0.2

Nothing shows up in my viewr window. I try loading characters /fbx files in and nothing shows up. If I switch to full screen however, the character and skeleton shows up and I can pan around and select joints, etc. I cannot move them.

If I switch back to panels, I get a solid gray background.

I'm on Mac OSX 10.2.5, dual G4 500 mhz, Radeon mac edition --updated the driver about a month ago.

:shrug:

I havent had a chance to sit with the manuals much or look at the demos??I just installed and registerred--an wanted to take a test drive. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I would think SOMETHING would show up in the screen--no grid or anything. All the pther panels have the info they are supposed to have. ANyone else have this prob? I noticed one other person had the same complaint on the Kaydara site--but no response from their complaint yet.

[JoelOtron]

Apparently there was a patch for this issue hidden among the threads at Kaydara. Found it and now things are working peachy.


Just playing with it for 5 minutes and, WOW---what a cool program!

[AdamT]

Cool! I'm very glad you got it working after all the free promotion I've been doing for it. :surprised

[ooo]

Originally posted by JoelD
Apparently there was a patch for this issue hidden among the threads at Kaydara. Found it and now things are working peachy.


So what or where is the hidden patch you found? I'm on OS10.2.5 myself

[JoelOtron]

I would only use the patch if you are expereinecing the same problem as I was, but its here:

http://www.kaydara.com/customer_services/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1000&perpage=10&pagenumber=1


Scroll down near the bottom

[ooo]

Thanks JoelD

By the way, when you download the linked file, it has to be renamed from .php to .sit and then it can be expanded to the patchfile.

[JoelOtron]

I somehow got it to work--I think I ran stuffit dlx on the php and later found the installer file on my desktop. Thanks

[kevin3d]

Any word on progress re:fbx & C4D?

[prayas]

checked all the 3DBuzz tutorial videos. DO this if you can download all the stuff. It's laaarrrrge download but these VTM lessons are great.

And one question to repeat from kevin3d. Any news on the im- ex- plugin- thingy?

P..:

[kevin3d]

Any word on progress re:fbx & C4D?

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