Motoko

[Vedic-kings]

Hi Jelo.

This is vary nice work!

The first thing I saw was that the eye on the left seems a little low.

I hope you don't mind, I did a paint over, to show you what I mean.

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/7453/motokowip06ra3.jpg

[matsman]

Wow.. very cute indeed... I think the things you set out to do, hair/skin rendering and light worked very well. The image has a very nice atmosphere

But I have to agree on the eyes with Vedic-kings although I am not that exited on his paintover...

I don't think one eye is lower then the other I think the lids are rotated weird... not quite sure how to put it but you can roll your eyes up and down, and left and right... well the eyeball looks okay, but the shape of the eye seems rotated in left and right. When fixing that (it will affect the shape), the height difference should be fixed as well.

And a second thing is the chin... while it is poking out a little more then what is concidered charming... it is also not in line with the face... but that is something you can see at Vedic-kings paintover.

Nice... I love to see more, both on this picture and other studies you have done. Bye :wavey:

[Jelo]

Than you, Vedic-kings and matsman, for you comment, really helpfull.

Thank for the paint over, tough I think it changes the whole perspective of the face in order to correct the eye problem, and I've set out to use this angle just because it's so difficult for me ;) but I very much appreciate a paint over, it helps getting a second point of view.

I did a revision of the right eye instead 8) as I believe it to be the culprit and rotated slightly and moved it. Due to the Anime style it's common to see the eyes in an not so correct placement in order to exaggerate expressions (I may have done this subconsciously) but the more detailed the shading of the face becomes it's impossible to freely place the eyes as you please as it becomes so evident they are out of place and has to be correctly placed in relation to anatomy and perspective, haha, well that's my thoughts at least.

I took a look on the chin, I partly like it the way it was and I think it give here a strong personality, but at the same time it seems to be a little off in relation to the rest, so changed it a little, I hope it turned out better now.

http://www.joelart.com/forum/motoko/motoko-wip05.jpg

[matsman]

Hi... chin seems good... but the eye is still off... if you want I can do an overpaint later in my day... now I am at work so no time! no time! I'm late! I'm late! :)

try to see the face as three dimensional and rotate the inner eye corner towards the nose with the eyeball as pivotpoint (both eyes, her left/ our right the most) does that make sense?

I'll hear it if I have to draw something!

[CybrGfx]

I, too, am uninpressed with the paintover. It does not correct the perspective, as much as it reshapes the features, changing the original artist's efforts. Not to mention the skull is incorrectly drawn, with no mass at the back...Again, Vedic Kings, I know your heart is in the right place, but...

Jelo, you have a really good start on a really hard perspecive, but there are some basic anatomy issues that are making this even more difficult for you than it has to be.

The mouth is too small, and the neck isn't too long, but it IS too thin, especially at the base, where it should widen into the shoulders. This is compounded by her right shoulder being way too low. The mouth should extend from the outer edge of the iris in one eye, to the outer edge of the iris in the other.

Speaking of eye, those eyes are going to be very problematic for you. The size and positioning, combined with the wonky eyelids, makes her look like she has some weird defect, or has been hit in the face. Her right eye, in particular, looks very bulbous with that overly thick lower eyelid.

You also have the irises two different sizes...consistency is your friend when drawing faces. Eye brows, eye lids, and iris sizes are the 3 biggies that people pretty much pick up on something being out of whack.

You've also made her ear too big, and too low down on the skull. The bottom of the ear should align with the bottom of the nostrils.

There are a couple other points, but until these basics are tweaked into line, I can't tell for sure if they are off-kilter or not.

Do be aware that you are also being inconsistent in highlights and shadows. Establish your light sources clearly, before you shade any further. Her face will not be illuminated like that with the way the shoulders are going, and vica versa.

~Cyber

[Jelo]

I have to say, I'm really grateful for all of your advices. The motivated me into really try and make an effort of solving the issues, especially the eyes.

I just got so tired of meddling with the eyes, not getting it right, that I decided to do my own 3D paint over. I simply modeled a basic version of here face in a 3D program and matched the perspective with my image. Now I have a 100% perspective correct base for the features of face. And indeed it was something fishy with the eyes, but now I think they are finally getting there.

I did a little tweaking on the ear, but I like the mouth the way it is. After all, this is a Japanese anime "styled" character. The neck, I'll get there soon.

The shadows and highlight, I'll take a look at it, good thing I now as have her in 3D for a good reference.

http://www.joelart.com/forum/motoko/motoko-wip06a.jpg
http://www.joelart.com/forum/motoko/motoko-wip06b.jpg
http://www.joelart.com/forum/motoko/motoko-wip07.jpg
http://www.joelart.com/forum/motoko/motoko-wip08.jpg

[CybrGfx]

...And indeed it was something fishy with the eyes,Very punny, lol!
I'm glad we got you to thinking, that is the most valuable help you can get.

Good for you in creating a 3D to paint over. You have the tools, evidently, so USE them! The extra time it takes will be more than made up for in not haveing to correct as many flaws.I like the mouth the way it is. After all, this is a Japanese anime "styled" character.Well stated, good point. Excellent that you have thought behind your decision.

Always keep in mind that ANY and ALL advice, suggestions, praise, and criticism you receive here, or anywhere else, from anyone, is ONLY their opinion. Keep only those comments in mind that resonate within you. "Yeah, those eyes do look lumpy..." Feel totally empowered to ignore those comments with which you have a thoughtful reason for doing, like the mouth. "Because that's just the way I draw," is always one of the lamest of justifications for bad rendering/proportions/placement, as there is no thought attached.

This looks beautiful. I would not have considered this Anime style because of the depth and realism you are achieving. Very nice work.

~Cyyber

[matsman]

I'm glad we got you to thinking, that is the most valuable help you can get.

Well stated, good point. Excellent that you have thought behind your decision.

Always keep in mind that ANY and ALL advice, suggestions, praise, and criticism you receive here, or anywhere else, from anyone, is ONLY their opinion. Keep only those comments in mind that resonate within you.
~Cyyber

Ha bless Cyber... So that is what you try to do with all those comments :) I thought you were kinda harsh sometimes but... I think I got it now. Good mission in life :thumbsup:

Also Jelo good work. I usually am very much against doing paintovers since people won't have to think if you have already drawn something... however text is up for interpretation so people have to think about what you mean. So very good that you went ahead and helped yourself. Looking forward to seeing more from you!

Bye!

[Jelo]

Ohhkay! new update, quite a rework, I've taken it in a more lush direction, now I've finally started to look at some reference pictures to get a hang of all the subtle shapes in the face.

I've also worked quite a bit on the light to try and get a more correct look, she somehow look more perspective correct now. And I'm going to see if this flipped version doesn't look better.

whoa.. where did the time fly, must have been working for 10 hours straight now, haha! ;D

http://www.joelart.com/forum/motoko/motoko-wip11b.jpg

[ajay1589]

great update...i like the entire image flipped though...

[matsman]

whaa... great update indeed! nice... the anime look is declining, thats probably a good thing... nice eyes although the inner corners seem a little big and empty... they are hugging the eye a little more.

Second I think the mouth is a little skewed and the nose looks very flat for some reason.

Very nice! Keep going! Later!

[Jelo]

Damn how hard it is to draw a nose... well not when you know how to, but I just have to admit that I laked consistent knowledge of noses, haha.
The shape of noses is quite hard to understand in detail, the more precise the shading of the nose get the more I realized how unsure I'm about it's the anatomy. Now I feel a little more confident, I spent an entire afternoon looking at people in the subway, looking at reference images and looking in my anatomy books.
What strikes me is how hard it actually is to come by good anatomy drawings on the nose, like the underlying cartilages that gives rise to it's special shapes.

Any way, it's not a major update here in terms of visual but many minor corrections, still improving on perspective correctness and shading.

http://www.joelart.com/forum/motoko/motoko-wip15.jpg

[Jelo]

Okay, here we go, Again! :)

I can't believe how much the image is changing, it's interesting that from the start it was just meant as a quick doodle and now I can't stop from adding more and more. ;)

http://joelart.com/forum/motoko/motoko-wip16.jpg

[matsman]

Sweet!

It's gettin better and better... real nice to follow this thread :thumbsup:

some things I notice: chin looks real pointy

her left cheekbone seems thinner and bonier then her right (our left) which has to do with the highlight there.

Love this angle more and nice work with the hair... I am almost expecting a mecha to fly over :)

thanks for all the updates! cheers!

[Jelo]

As I started out on the image I didn't have any set idea of how I want it to look in the end, so this is more of a little venture strolling down the street being guided by your emotional whims. Though, that said I do have preferences of things I like so I'm quite certain I'm going ending up at almost the same place any way, It's just that I'm exploring different versions and ideas.
I did like the previous version but I still feel I've strayed a little from my original feeling I'm being pulled towards. Now that I've spent a lot of time looking at my reference images of beautiful Japanese actresses, I think this version is much closer to that cute look I set out to reach, the opposite to cute in this case would be the cool hot looking woman, with more sharper angular features that I've strayed towards in the later images, but now I've tried to revert back to a younger girlier look.

Yay!

http://joelart.com/forum/motoko/motoko-wip18.jpg

[enkeli]

I really like the light on the nose at wip 11, where did it go?
I find wip 11's face is the one who has better lights, those little bright points make her feel alive a bit, why do you take them off?

anyway, it turned to be a really nice face, and i didn't see much anime-styled faces around here....

try to refine the lips, with a little bit of shadows and make them a bit glossy...she will look really nice with glossy lips.

:thumbsup:



(please, sorry for my poor english :S )

[Jelo]

enkeli: Okay I took a look at the lips, I'm not sure if there is a great difference, I keep coming back to the original expression an look but maybe they're a bit more refined now. :)

http://joelart.com/forum/motoko/motoko-wip19.jpg

[Jelo]

So.. finally arrived at the hair part, yes! :arteest:, this is indeed an undertaking. This is the first time for ages I approach hair and while it's quite difficult, needs planing and takes insane amounts of time. It's very fun and rewarding to see the result emerge in front of your eyes. Although not entirely done yet, some parts not completed, I'm quite pleased where I'm right now.

Also the mouth has gone through many revisions and the eyes received some make up.

http://www.joelart.com/forum/motoko/yui-wip24b.jpg

[lospeed]

i think the hair looks amazing, it's a really fantastic look

i'm loving it

[vfxnerd]

I agree. The hair makes so much difference. Lovin this, cant wait to see more! =)

[matsman]

Hi... great work... lips are very shiny now... but that isn't bad.

I do think the shape of the hair is a little unbalanced... Don't know if you want/can do somehting with that. The hair is really high on the right (her left) while the other side seems very flat... ehm... not as high and fluffy. Second I think the hair in the neck could be a little more bend out at the tips, for that little more balance and movement.

However feel free to ignore this if you are happy with the look... of maybe sketch on a new layer to see if I have a point...

Great work mate :thumbsup: on to the hand next!

[DArcy1]

I just had to stop by to say I love this picture, you've really captured something in her expression and you've done a lovely job on the skin tones !


D'Arcy

[Jelo]

Yes, matsman, I felt the hair was a bit unbalanced too, once I took a little break and looked at the image from a far. So this is a quick revision on the hair, luckily I have parts of the hair in layers. I still think it might need some minor adjusting, I might make her skulls top part a little bigger, still working on it, just need to step away from the computer a while, the brain get so used to the image it doesn't even help flipping the image anymore ;)

And thanks for the compliment everyone, I really, really appreciate all the constructive comments, for the most part I'm somewhat aware of the issues at hand but when someone else points it out, I know it's a real problem for sure ;)

lospeed, cgsocieter, thanks ;)

Hi DArcy1, saw you've finnished the painting with the boy, nice :thumbsup:

http://www.joelart.com/forum/motoko/yui-wip25.jpg

[Jelo]

Oohh.. kaay, I dind't know whether to be happy or sad about the freedom not working traditionally gives you. The possibilities are endless and you can keep changing things into infinity. I suppose it's a good thing after all :)

As I said, the I haven't been drawing hair in a long time and never tried to achieve this level before, It's so much to consider that it's only natural that I shouldn't expect to easily get it right the first time. As a result no matter how I looked at it I didn't like the last version of the hair. Something about how the flow of the hair and it's shape in relation to the camera angel and image in general didn't feel right. And thrust me as much as it hurts to throw away hours of work, the expression "kill your darlings" is one of the most important ones to keep in mind. Really, nothing is to holly to keep for the greater good of the image, nothing, ARGHH!

We'll just have to keep our fingers crossed that I'll be able to pull it of eventually. As follows is the new version. I also did a slight correction of her left eye and nose, now I'm quite content with them being perspective correct, finally ;)


http://www.joelart.com/forum/motoko/yui-wip26.jpg

[DArcy1]

Hi Jelo, yes I did, and one more, now I'm off trying to work on music for a while ! Busy busy busy :-)


D.

p.s. I still prefer this a.m.'s hair, with her hand up it looks like she's starting on a journey somewhere...

[Jelo]

Update again, phew, now I have work, real work, coming up so it may be longer between updates.

This now this version of the hair I like much more, but I haven't settled on the colors and brightness of it yet, this is partly a mock-up hair version with all the hair layers collapsed and some extra highlights added. I still need to detail the hair in parts and finish the rest of the image before deciding on the final hair.

http://www.joelart.com/forum/motoko/yui-wip27.jpg

[matsman]

OH Jelo wow! you actually just went and did it... unbelieveable...

I like this hair far better.. has more flow and direction to it and it is somehow more true to the sketchy hair you had in the beginning, although a lot has changed.

I think it is still not entirely correct though... I'm not sure and probably have to see the skull underneath to make completely sure... But it seems to me that OR

the highest point of the hair, 2d, is on a too high curve, indicating a pointy head

OR

there needs to be a little bit of hair added above her right eye (our left) to round out the shape a bit more

OR

the whole wig needs to be rotated about.. (i'm bad at guessing angles) 10 degrees counter clockwise.

Love every step Jelo and it keeps getting better and better! Cool :thumbsup:

[Sachdev3d]

Wow..!!!
Thats so beautiful...Its wonderful portrait. Everything has come so nicely...I always wonder how people make hairs...the same thing you did...Amazing hairs.
5 stars

Cheers
Sachin Sachdeva

[Jelo]

Well... if you don't think I'm going crazy, at least I think so, haha. This, as you can see is the third iteration of here hair. No matter how I tried with the previous hair styles it just didn't fit onto here head for some reason. But I think, hope (cross my fingers), that this time it will work out. I'm actually quite satisfied with this version, taking it back even more too the original style and feeling I set out to reach, which is a good thing :)

What ever happens this has been a ridiculous exercise in painting hair. LOL


http://www.joelart.com/forum/motoko/yui-wip28.jpg

[matsman]

Hi jelo!
whaa.. weird hairstyle... semi punk but very cool and hip! I like!

However I still think it doesn't fit that great... bangs and neck is great but the division line does not seem to follow her skull yet... so there it goes wrong a bit... this time the hair seems to be tilted forward a bit, and to her left (our right) which is still a wig approach.

If you have painter (where you can rotate your painting without transform issues) you can try and rotate the eyes in one line... that way it is probably easier to see, since the head will then basically be straight. In that way you can check if the hair sits on right...

But wonderful stuff! If you need great hair reference try a hairdresser magazine, basically a listing of all hairstyles for that period in fashion. It's really great when doing hair.

[Lman]

I'm liking this Wip :d
great work look forward to your result,
I like the 3 last hair style best btw.

and the lips are a tad to glossy but that's ok just my taste ;)

great job

[Jelo]

Lo again, I'm not sure this newer version really warrants a post, but what the heck. By now I start to doubt my own judgment, not getting the hair right over and over again :) But that's why this forum is so good, to point out things you might have missed your self.

Ah, the lipps, well, I thing most things may get an overhaul once I've finished all parts of the image. For now they are okay :)


http://www.joelart.com/forum/motoko/yui-wip31.jpg

[matsman]

Hi Again!

I think your on to something here... nearly perfect (BTW I know what you mean... i am not sure myself.. I really need to let it sink in and even then I am drawing with my vinger on the monitor to visualise the skull underneath)

Bus as I said it is nearly perfect! I think you just overcompensated a slight bit and put the place where all hair comes together (whadda ya call that in english?) just a little to low... My visualisation says I should see a bald spot there... but it is just a little bit off.
The rest is fixed, angle and balance.

BTW please check everything I say yourself too I'm no god either :p and have and can be wrong millions of times! (hurray for failure and the things it teaches!)

once more the hair and then on to the hand! Finally nearing completion! (right?)

[Jelo]

Opps! it been a full year and the thread is closing.. not good. ;) gotta get back to this image as soon as I can.

[acb12]

loool and you revived it rly on the edge of being inactive for a year ^_^

wow it rly is a major coincidence cuz today i just finished watching this series's first season @_@
and it has quite a resemblance to motoko from this series and it turned out to be rly good so far so keep going there and w8ing for updates :D

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