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That Adrian Guy
05-04-2003, 11:59 PM
*****************************************
UPDATE:

I'm going to be posting the links to people's pre-rigged files here:

Here's wolfie:
http://www26.brinkster.com/adranmor/db/wolfie/


and a link to both a file and tutorials by Sanciok:
http://www.flingster.com/cgtalk/sanciok/

And another!
http://www.flingster.com/cgtalk/sanciok/NiceRig1.zip

Here's the link to a walk and run cycle:
http://www26.brinkster.com/adranmor/db/wolfie/zips.html

Check them out!!

*******************************************





Hey guys...

I know I'm not a forum mod... AKA forum god. BUT! I think we should do stuff to break the usual monotony with something we could do both for fun and learn from.

[b]That is... if learning really can be fun :beer:

Anyway... I'm putting myself in a really akward position by saying this... but I think we should have an activity sticky, whether it be for 2 weeks, a month, or longer. In this case, I'll give you guys my wolfie file... which is totally rigged and ready to go! (using Wes-ware's setup If other people have any other pre-rigged files, they should share them as well!

I guess the idea would be making something walk in 3D. To my knowledge... only 10% of us have actually made a model walk... that's a really sad number:

Anyway... here's a screen shot:

http://www.geocities.com/adranmor/setup.txt

Wadaya guys say??? Is it worth it??? :thumbsdow :D :thumbsup:

Ideas are welcomed! Kai, ThirdEye... I hope you don't find this offensive

xeno
05-05-2003, 12:03 AM
that indeed sounds like an intresting idea..so far ive only managed to let one creature ive made walk..and it didnt really look that impressive, could also be becoz he only made 4 steps..but ah well! Anyway, sounds cool, im gonna be makin mine walk again now as we speak..lets hope hell walk a bit moe this time..

jeb
05-05-2003, 12:18 AM
looks like very into it adrian... good show..ill wiat to see how yours turns out:thumbsup:

JIII
05-05-2003, 02:18 AM
This is great idea I hope the mods like it, just the thing to get my off my lazy butt. Well that would actually make me spend more time on my lazy butt.

I think we should do this and maybe even have C4D challenges too.

but thats just my opinion.

also all my walk cycles have stunk so it would be a good experience.

randyrives
05-05-2003, 03:06 AM
Sounds great! I am getting ready to make that step, so learning from all ya'll would be great.

sanciok
05-05-2003, 03:08 AM
are u using the MOCCA module?
or the old bones of CinemaXL 7?
Anyway u're using IK!!
Well if u'd like i can write a little walkcycle tut using IK... Just for a very basic walk... to understand the Timing and the position...:beer:

(ah... the position of your wolf... is not the ideal to start a walkcycle... and the foots are too far from each other)

LucentDreams
05-05-2003, 07:49 AM
Hmm interesting, I can make it a sticky if you guys want. I"m interested in the discussion already as Sanciok's comment has already caught my eye. Thats actually a great way to do a walk. Pose the stride first. Thsi is the way its done classicaly, always start with the stride. The legs are a little far apart unless he's powerwalkin.

Stray
05-05-2003, 08:05 AM
Yeah. I think maybe you guys are onto something. I will post my walk rig if you guys are interested. It uses absolutely no MOCCA. Only the plug-in "Multi-target". It is a kind of HPB rotate plane thingy. It is a very stable rig with up-vectors in the legs and feet.

I also have a reverse foot working so that heel/ball/toe pivots can be made very accurately. Sorry guys it is a V8 file beacuse the toes rig uses sliders in 8. If there is any interest I can make a comparable rig in V7.

On a foot note (no pun intended). i just felt that MOCCA is a great tool for specific tasks although I feel that they went in another direction than I thought they would.

I was kinda hoping that they would re-implemet quaternion rotations(like they had in V5, yep.) so that there would be no gimbal locking situation and smoother interpolation than HPB. I am happy with the current rig I am using though.

Cheers
Stray
PS how do you post files on this site?:shrug:

lildragon
05-05-2003, 11:42 AM
I would love to know how to rig aside from the Mime tut ;) I'm itching to move my characters very very soon

salud

flingster
05-05-2003, 12:13 PM
i've been thinking about doing this for the last few weeks...so i might give it a go if i get time...never done anything like that and its about time i learn't.
i like the idea about mixing it up a bit in here...sort of productivity awareness week!!!! you can decide is you wanna be productively aware or not!! heh heh.
the problem with these very often is they are often to complicated for noobies like myself to have a go at.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

smoke
05-05-2003, 01:04 PM
making a walking and jumping character is my main goal at the moment (first I need to model something to rig of course).
I've been going through the mime tut over and over trying to get used to the controls and procedures, I've yet to actually try animating it though...
I love to see how other rigs are being done too

Zoogie
05-05-2003, 02:07 PM
I am definitely interested in this.
Sanciok, I would like to see your tutorial,.

Stray, can you post the reasoning behind your method when you do post your rig?

I am interested in seeing the different ways people are rigging and why.

Thanks

squidinc
05-05-2003, 03:21 PM
I'd also like to see an alternative tutorial to the mime one, ( a more simple one, and because I don't think there enough tutorials on mocca ) :D

michaeli
05-05-2003, 03:53 PM
I am very interested in this too. Mime tut is great, but more is better for learning things like CA.

ThirdEye
05-05-2003, 03:59 PM
Good idea TAG, i think we can make a sticky :)

JIII
05-05-2003, 04:03 PM
hmm adrian post that guy with his bones and all.

and Stray you are going to need to post that file from another website. CGtalk only has support for jpeg and gif file types.

That Adrian Guy
05-05-2003, 05:16 PM
Whooo!!!!! It's a sticky!

It's 9:30 right now... once I get home from work (5:00 or so) I'll upload it for you guys. I'll include the texutures and all that good stuff for you guys too.

(I'm really sorry I didn't upload it earlier, SORRY!!!)

LucentDreams
05-05-2003, 05:38 PM
I"m almostr definitely in myself, as of this morning I had eureka moment (which meant I only got like 4hours of sleep and I"ve been really sleep deprived, but can't risk forgetting things) Anways, I may finally have my leg rig, but still have no spine or arms :/ so maybe I'll just do legs. as for sharing it, well unfortunately I've had sooo many requests for a rigging DVD, I think I"ll be saving this leg rig for a CD/DVD kind of thing. I should also check with Jason as its based on his maya Rig (was far far more difficult to set up.) with a little help from Steve townrow too. Ironically This hardly uses SIK at all as well (LOL no ones using it)

I'm just setting up the last expresso expression for it right now but need some help from support. Look for some sort of a post from me tonight. While I won't share the rig I'll share many of the rigging concepts of it. Again I recommend anyone really wanting to get into rigging to get Jason's DVD from Alias Wavefront, I know its for maya, but the concepts apply to all animation.

sanciok
05-05-2003, 06:44 PM
The tutorial is ready, i did it today, i just need someone to host it. There are also the two scenes, one without animation, one with the walkcycle.
Maybe (compared to the mime one) it too basic... but when i did the animation class on Maya, Ernesto Paganoni (a very talented italian animator) suggested us to start from very basic things...
This is right because if u can animate an expressive CUBE (and it is DIFFICULT) u can animate everything.
Waiting for someone to host the TUT!!!!

flingster
05-05-2003, 06:52 PM
sanciok: mail me the zip with relative links and i'll see what i can do.:p

sanciok
05-05-2003, 07:14 PM
DONE! it's in your mail!!

flingster
05-05-2003, 08:11 PM
sanciok's walkcycle tutorial is online and can be found at:

http://www.flingster.com/cgtalk/sanciok/

very cool....and remember to thank him...:beer: :beer:

That Adrian Guy
05-05-2003, 08:35 PM
Sweet! I'll check that out when I get home! (if it's R8... I'm gonna be crushed!)

BUT!!! on the bright side I found some excellent references!!
http://www.enisoc.com/~cyberbotx/sprites.php

Wadaya guys think??? I love them!

LucentDreams
05-05-2003, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by sanciok
The tutorial is ready, i did it today, i just need someone to host it. There are also the two scenes, one without animation, one with the walkcycle.
Maybe (compared to the mime one) it too basic... but when i did the animation class on Maya, Ernesto Paganoni (a very talented italian animator) suggested us to start from very basic things...
This is right because if u can animate an expressive CUBE (and it is DIFFICULT) u can animate everything.
Waiting for someone to host the TUT!!!!

hehe when you said animate a cube I thought you meant a simple cube not a leg rig cube :) Very cool I don't know if I've ever seen someone do that before.

I thought you meant something more like this but with a cube instead of a sphere, http://www.cameronmiyasaki.com/Animation/Animation_right/bouncingballs.mov

sanciok
05-05-2003, 11:30 PM
THANKS FLINGSTER!!

Sorry Adrian... it's for r8 but anyway the poses for the walkcycle are a good reference for you!
Anyway if u need the BIBLE of animation i'll suggest u to have a glace to this link:

http://www.freetoon.com/prestonblair/intro/frame.html

It's the Preston Blair's book "Cartoon Animation" . It's for traditional animation but its principles are usable in the 3D animation.
If the main page won't load just click the links on the left menu!
:drool: :drool:

jimarse
05-06-2003, 12:25 AM
I recently made a walk cycle in R8 for my first 3d character:

http://davidsloss.net/works/2003/geoff_anims/geoff_walk1.html

(That's an mpeg4 btw, so you'll need QT 6 to see it. I'll have a mpeg1 up some day soon.)

It's pretty basic -- not specific enough to communicate much individual personality or even mood, but the idea was just to get the mechanics right. The rig btw is very similar to the Mime's, only with FK arms.

The single best resource for walk and run cycles imho is Richard William's The Animator's Survival Kit. In fact it's the only animation book I keep literally within reach (and I've got 'em all).


j

That Adrian Guy
05-06-2003, 02:12 AM
Okay... here's the link to wolfie!

There aren't any keyframes or anything...

Frankly... I don't have a clue what I'm gonna do next with it!

...how to start... how to start!!!


http://www26.brinkster.com/adranmor/db/wolfie/

sanciok
05-06-2003, 02:18 AM
TAD... have a look to the tut and the link i posted! It will give u a heand!

That Adrian Guy
05-06-2003, 05:35 AM
ACK!!!! TOO MANY KEYFRAMES!!!

http://wattupyo.tripod.com/wattupyo/walk.html

sanciok
05-06-2003, 02:24 PM
:) nice start Adrian!
I got your Wolfie and i did a funky walk. The rig is good and the skinning is OK! Maybe the head.... you have no control in that area.
If you give me your e-mail i'll show you the anim.

About our walkcycle i have some crits: there are som sort of "snatches" on the arms and the legs as if there are some wrong keyframe. The torso is too ahed and legs go too back! He'd fall down walking like this.
My suggestion is: Don't use automatic keyframe... For example: if you are at frame 10 and you are moving the left leg up, auto keyframe will add a keyframe to the Pos of the left leg, and nothing for the right leg as it is static. Whrn you go to the frame 20 (or whatever it is) and you move the R_leg backward , autokeyframe will put a key here. What does it means this?
It means that the computer, for the right leg, will calculate the interpolation starting NOT from frame 10 but from the previous one, and this may cause this leg to go slower than the other.
I'd suggest you also to give a glance to the timeline, serching for wrong keyframes.

In my animation i animated only the foot control (the polygonal one) in Pos and Rot (for the legs), Upper part is FK so the work was a bit longer!.
I'd send you also the scene... but it's saved in r8....

That Adrian Guy
05-07-2003, 05:12 AM
Excellent crit!

Tell me what you think now:

DRAG THIS LINK TO THE ADDRESS BAR (divx) (http://wattupyo.tripod.com/wattupyo/walk.avi)

Slowly but surely, I'm learning how to walk!

Note to mods:

Umm... we may want to organize this some other way... I don't think this thread is "sticky" material... It's almost selfish of me to do all of the posting. (and Sanciok : )

We'll see what happens!!! :airguitar

LucentDreams
05-07-2003, 12:34 PM
sorry for being so slow on this, had some bugs and such, nd have been having horrible internet lately so uploadings been a bummer this evening so I'm doing this at 500 AM :)

Anyways, no animation as I've been rigging, I think Chi has a simple test with a slightly older unstable version hecouldpost if he wants.

Two simple pics showing the leg rig, really simple, only need to touch five objects at most, You have the essential Root control this allows you to move the hips, simply move and rotate nothing else needed there. The two pole vectors (upvectors/targets) which if needed can be moved, nothing else, they control the rotation plan for the thigh/shin) they are linked so that you don't really need to move them alot for things like walking and such since they will moveon their own, but anytime ou do need to you can select them. Makes life super easy :)

Last is the foot control, I won't go into too much depth as I want to save it for the rigging Cd, but basically you never really need to go into its heirarchy. all you need is the main foot control object. you can rotate the foot from theire on all three planes, it also has five sliders to lift the foot from the ball or the toe, also twist the foot from the ball or toe, and raise and lower the toes. Why have these on slides? Easy because there are three goals as a riger that you want to do for the animator.

1)LIMIT what can be SELECTED.
2)LIMIT what can and needs to be recorded
3)ALLOW the MOST amount of CONTROL with the LEAST amount of EFFORT

If you think about it, orlooked into the heirarchies of the foot controls, you'd have probably around 13 controls just fro the root and legs. Each control then records position and rotation of all three vecotrs XYZ/HPB, so you hav 6 things x 13 objects thats 78 lines in your timeline. thats a lot to sort through, as well certain things in the heirarchy should never be moved for exaple the to goal, moving it can cause instablility in the foot allowing bones to flip out of control the foot not matching the rest of the goals properfly and such and getting its rotation all screwed up.

The sliders greatly reduce the number of timeline tracks, we have five objects that will rcord postions and rotation, so thats 30 :/ and then five sliders on two objects thats another ten, so thats fourty total, we just cut our tracks in half. as well by making it so they never need to select things like the toe goal, we prevent the animator from pullling it accidently and breaking the rig. Limit what they can affect without lmitig the flexibility of the rig.

There are no true rotation limits on the rig, I did limit some of the sliders, simply because things like the foot twists should only go so far befor you might as well simply turn the foot around. this prevents instability again, but you sohuld be able to pose this in almostany pose you could without the sliders, definitely beyond realistic boundries of flexibility. so its not limiting his abilities.

hehe all that and forgot the pictures :)

http://cgi.third-era.com/~kaiskai/misc/legs1.jpg
http://cgi.third-era.com/~kaiskai/misc/legs2.jpg

Oh and for those wondering since I hid it pretty good, both SOFT IK and HARD IK are used in the leg rig.

AdamT
05-07-2003, 01:44 PM
Kai--that's looking awesome. Really looking forward to the rigging CD, although by then I'll have Motion Builder, so....

Adrian--the walk's coming along. The feet still need a lot of work, though. The traveling foot should angle up and land on the heel, while the stationary foot needs to roll up more. The shoulder rotation is good, but the head needs to counter-rotate so it stays mostly facing forward. And the head should go down a little after the foot lands. Needs more hip rotation? The arm swing should be offset a few frames so it lags behind the legs, and ideally the hands should lag a little behind the forearm. Keep on truckin'!

BTW, all of the above is based upon what I've read on the subject--not what I can do myself. :)

sanciok
05-07-2003, 02:44 PM
Really better Adrian!

U need to slow it down... i mean move the keys at least at distance of 10 frames.
Then, your feet are parallel to the ground.
I suggest you to start the cycle from a different pose, check my tutorial too see what i mean. To avoid the feet parallel to the ground u just need to rotate the foot control (the polygonal one) when u are in the position from where i suggest you to start.
Then after u did those changes add some minor movements, as some movemet of the feet tip, of the neck.
For the torso i suggest u a combination of rotation starting from the Lower spine to the upper one. I mean few degrees for the lower spine then more for the middle one , than increasing for the upper one.

Nice Work anyway!!!

Kai, That look awesome!! U have a lot of driven keys out there! Is there something controlling the muscle bulging? I mean on the legs... ??

AdamT
05-07-2003, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by sanciok
Really better Adrian!
For the torso i suggest u a combination of rotation starting from the Lower spine to the upper one. I mean few degrees for the lower spine then more for the middle one , than increasing for the upper one.

I think the lower spine/hips should rotate forward with the traveling leg while the rest of the spine counter-rotates so the shoulders turn a little with the arm swing.

LucentDreams
05-07-2003, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by sanciok
Kai, That look awesome!! U have a lot of driven keys out there! Is there something controlling the muscle bulging? I mean on the legs... ??


Not yet since it is not yet skinned (currently the legs are fully rigged yeht the spine isnt' even finished yet, and the arms bones haven't even been made :/ Not a good workflow but I wanted to get the leg rig to match the maya leg rig I've learned from jason and his DVD. One the bones are all done and skinned I will add some muscular control, most likely using FFD and Taz's new DeformerXT plugin, but possible some drivven morphs as well, I wish it was easy as mirai's where you simply pose the bone adjust the model save satate and its done that bone will drive that morph.

chi
05-07-2003, 03:44 PM
werd up.... umm yeah i have a file with a quick demo of kais leg set up....its 700kb and i hope my server dude doesnt kill me for posting it...i dont know the limits :shrug:

mmmm mirai :D it would be even better if you could import models with out a hitch

kais leg rig (http://cgi.third-era.com/~chi/comptest.avi)

AdamT
05-07-2003, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by Kaiskai
I wish it was easy as mirai's where you simply pose the bone adjust the model save satate and its done that bone will drive that morph.
Yeah, VReel Morph works that way too. Nice.

LucentDreams
05-07-2003, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by chi
werd up.... umm yeah i have a file with a quick demo of kais leg set up....its 700kb and i hope my server dude doesnt kill me for posting it...i dont know the limits :shrug:

mmmm mirai :D it would be even better if you could import models with out a hitch

kais leg rig (http://cgi.third-era.com/~chi/comptest.avi)

hehe chi we have far less restricitons on the new one then the old one :)

Yeah I don't have a problem with that video, great little advert I think. shows the rig is pretty easy to manipulate and is really stable.

yeha I never thought about Vreelmorph, hmm I will have to talk to arndt about that, never used it really but I remember it using states. would it automatically work with the bones so the bones woudl drive the morph?

AdamT
05-07-2003, 04:19 PM
Been a while since I used it, but I think it only works with points. So, you can drive a point deformation with a bone, but AFAIK there's no way to drive a bone with another bone.

LucentDreams
05-07-2003, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by AdamT
Been a while since I used it, but I think it only works with points. So, you can drive a point deformation with a bone, but AFAIK there's no way to drive a bone with another bone.

No I just wanted to drive the morph with the bone, drive one bone with another you simply set driver set dirven :)

jimarse
05-07-2003, 06:29 PM
Kai- Could you explain what the grey poly things are sticking out of the leg bones that we can see in the avi clip? I think they are to help getting the right vertices on the mesh to be affected by the bone (much like the ++ bone parented to the heel of the Mime's foot), but I'm not familiar with how you used a poly object instead of another bone. Do you simply parent the poly object to the bone? And how do you get the poly object influence the character mesh?

Thanks a lot.

chi
05-07-2003, 08:17 PM
umm the polys stick out the back of the legs are simply there to create an easier refrence to the rotation of the bone

jimarse
05-07-2003, 10:26 PM
oh.




thanks chi.



(I'll get my coat then.)

LucentDreams
05-08-2003, 12:40 AM
Uhm those are wings used for vector reference. I made those ones myself, a single poly object I placed as a child of the bone. If you own ghosting polybone, there is a feature in that plugin that will dothis automatically using a tag. it doesn't influcence geroetry, is simply lets me know if the kneee does flip over. things is no matter how stable your rig is, when using upvectors theres always a chance that if the vector is at a certain angle and such the bones may plip, this way without haveing the mesh visible, you can immediatelys ee if the bones flips.

Zoogie
05-08-2003, 01:00 AM
Sanciok,
thanks a lot for the tut. looks very interesting. I am going to play with it tonite .
cheers

sanciok's walkcycle tutorial is online and can be found at:

bobzilla
05-08-2003, 01:13 AM
This thread (sticky?) is one of the best things I've seen on this forum and I've seen a LOT of great things here. Everyone has been so much help. Especially on such difficult subjects as rigging and animating characters.

I've been working on a dinosaur for, well...ever! I have a rig for it and would love to pass it around if anyone's interested. I haven't animated it yet, though.

I can't post it, so if anyone's interested I could email it to you.

Also, Paul Everet's Visual Selector has been wonderful! Its so easy to use and saves lots of time instead of picking through the hierarchy. And I have a very simple rig.

Again...thanks to everyone here!!!!!

LucentDreams
05-08-2003, 02:00 AM
If you'd like I could host it and post it :) for you.

As for visual selector yeah couldn't live without it.

jimarse
05-08-2003, 03:12 AM
I have not tried the Visual Selector plugin, but it seems to me that unless you have a very complicated rig with many controls to differentiate between, there ain't much need for it. After all, with proper use of the selection objects and nice pictoral splines to grab (Kai, I love those feet--I just wanna grab 'em!), doesn't the editor window perform almost exactly the same function as the Visual Selector window?

Maybe I'm missing something. Probably.

Incidently, I made a mpeg1 version of my walk cycle. Like some feedback if anyone's got a mo:

http://davidsloss.net/works/2003/geoff_anims/geoff_walk1.mpg




...........................................
Oh. I'll get my coat then.

JIII
05-08-2003, 04:26 AM
finally something that quicktime can read. get driven nuts by divix codecs.

I love the walk cycle, its gota real feeling of weight at the bottom of each step.

however it seems a little fast for an old dude. But that kicks the hell out of my walk cycles so I should shut up now.

bobzilla
05-08-2003, 12:31 PM
Thanks, Kai. I'll email it to you when I get home.

jimarse: I thought the same thing about Visual Selector, but once you use it, you won't want to go back to the old way. I found it hard to grap PoseMixer objects the other way, among other things.

AdamT
05-08-2003, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by jimarse
Incidently, I made a mpeg1 version of my walk cycle. Like some feedback if anyone's got a mo:

http://davidsloss.net/works/2003/geoff_anims/geoff_walk1.mpg
The arms and legs look good. Now just add some hip/shoulder rotation and a little head bob and you'll be good to go.

sanciok
05-08-2003, 01:49 PM
Zoogie: hope u enjoy it!!!

What a nice thread here!
KAI: Nice idea for the "No-Flipping" polywings... I need to do something like that!
I have a question for you... It happens to me, in a standard rig, with polevectors (in the Y- axis), to need to add lots of keys to avoid the legs twist or flip when pulled foward (over the poles).
How you solve this problem? I mean... this isn't a real problem, but could be bettere to have a Sort of expression that (maybe in Xpresso using a Cump) avoid this adding keys!

jimarse: You have a really nice Walckcycle there! Good timing!

LucentDreams
05-08-2003, 03:29 PM
well I have before, and in a rig like the mime you would. but the flipping in myt rig doesn't happen very often, so very few keys are needed on them due to flipping. however they also control the angle of rotation for the knee at the same time (rather than having seperate upvector and knee target) so you may have quite a few keys for that depending on what you are doing. as you cansee in the video chi made (which actually I discovered still had a bug or two in it when I watched it :/) they dont' fip around very easily. most common two flips are if the root goes way infront of the feet ,so far that it passes the pole vector, then they will of course flip since the pole is on the other side of the legs, and when the knee and thigh are really compressed like in a really tight crouch, all you need to do to fix that is move the polevector up a bit. Onenote, to do a hard pole vector like theone in my rig, you must use hardIK, soft IK by itself can't do that strong of a connection.

One unfortunate thing abuot my rig is you do need some expresso for it to be made, and thats not including the sliders which are obviously expresso with userdata.

JoelOtron
05-08-2003, 06:23 PM
Anyone know of a way to either export a mesh WITH BONES into Maya or Vice versa?

Any way to keep the rigging info intact as well?

Zoogie
05-08-2003, 07:16 PM
I believe the fbx format
would do that (in theory at least)

LucentDreams
05-08-2003, 07:17 PM
at the moment not thatI know of, you may be able to export the bones as BVH, thus OBJ for mesh and you have both in maya, but keeping them together I think will only be posible with fbx if anything, and FBX for C4D is not yet available.

flingster
05-08-2003, 07:53 PM
do we know if/when fbx support is likely?

sanciok
05-08-2003, 07:58 PM
Kai: i have one question for you: How the hell u do a polevector using Hard iK???? COFFEE??? Xpresso?? I'm using only SoftIK while i can't obtain a pole vector in Hard IK.

Then... in the video of your rig... i see your rig... but no motion...

Can u explain me how to get polevectors using hardIK???

LucentDreams
05-08-2003, 09:12 PM
really starting to dig into CD stuff, there is some expresso used, as well as SIK, see the thing is SIK does upvecotrs, which at full strngth are great, but they only keep the upvector pointed the right way they dont' pull it, your solutions is to then make a seperate goal much closer to the knee with a farily high setting to get a somewhat okay but typically too soft influence.

Hard Ik, you can taget the knee perfectly, but without the upvector to prevent the bones from flipping, so all I did, was use the upvecotr from the SIK and the tareting from the hard IK.

I'm not going to dive much further than that right now as I want to keep something that will sell the CD. Out of curiosity, are more people interested in a rigging cd then a modeling one? I'm starting to tink I should get the rigging one done first, though honestly I haven't actually started anything for a rigging CD.

JoelOtron
05-09-2003, 01:00 AM
Originally posted by Kaiskai
at the moment not thatI know of, you may be able to export the bones as BVH, thus OBJ for mesh and you have both in maya, but keeping them together I think will only be posible with fbx if anything, and FBX for C4D is not yet available.

C4d only imports bvh, doesnt seem to be able to export it.

Man, its been almost a year since the fbx announcement was posted on Maxon's site.

http://www.maxon.net/pages/dyn_files/dyn_htx/htx/302/00302_00302.html

I hope we see it soon, especially with motionbuilder out now. Just think, we could potentally actually get character work in a Maya or Lightwave house.

LucentDreams
05-09-2003, 01:37 AM
its coming for sure just not sure when.


Anyways, Here is Bobzilla's rig, some nice aspects to this one, and nice to see somethring quite different like a dinosaur. This one is for R8 users only :/ but has some nice things to help those learning for sure.
http://cgi.third-era.com/~kaiskai/misc/dino_rigNEW.zip

LucentDreams
05-09-2003, 08:17 AM
Just saw this posted on the cow, thought you'd all liek to take a look fits right in with this thread.

http://home.earthlink.net/~cactusdanl/LegRigTut1.html

bobzilla
05-09-2003, 12:31 PM
Kai: Thanks for posting my rig. Hope it helps, and feel free to comment, make suggestions, whatever...

One stupid question...Are all these "cycles" people are doing a "walk in place" type of thing? I noticed the character isn't actually moving. IS that the best way to get a cycle going?

LucentDreams
05-09-2003, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by bobzilla
Kai: Thanks for posting my rig. Hope it helps, and feel free to comment, make suggestions, whatever...

One stupid question...Are all these "cycles" people are doing a "walk in place" type of thing? I noticed the character isn't actually moving. IS that the best way to get a cycle going?

well ideally for a walk cycle, you want your charcter to walk in one spot (not move forward but rather fet slide while body stays in one place.) Then have that whole animated system inside a nulll which you animate movig forward, or, group the whole environment excluding the character and move it past the character.

AdamT
05-09-2003, 02:36 PM
Check out this excellent leg rig tutorial: http://www.creativecow.net/forum/read_post.php?postid=105245576710438&forumid=19

LucentDreams
05-09-2003, 03:21 PM
haha beat you to it adam :p

AdamT
05-09-2003, 03:57 PM
Oh damn! Time to have my eyes checked! :surprised

sanciok
05-10-2003, 07:36 PM
No news here?
I'm working on a stable SoftIK rig, and it seems to work!
Adrian: How is going your walkcycles? :scream: :scream:

That Adrian Guy
05-11-2003, 02:23 AM
Adam... Kai... Sanciok... others... Any feeback is welcomed!!

Here are the c4d run and walk files:

http://www26.brinkster.com/adranmor/db/wolfie/zips.html

I think it's getting there! :thumbsup:

Here's a divx version of the run cycle... 5.05 required
DRAG THIS LINK TO THE ADDRESS BAR (http://wattupyo.tripod.com/wattupyo/run.avi)

Any crits?

That Adrian Guy
05-11-2003, 03:50 PM
Sanciok! What ever happened to your animation??? Post!!

SQUID!!!! I'm calling you out! Someone with as many cool ideas as you, has got to be capable of some quality animating!

jimarse
05-12-2003, 04:45 PM
TAG- It's a little hard to tell what's going on with your run cycle by looking at the avi you posted because of the camera animation. Do you think you could spit one out with a static camera? Preferably from a 3/4 view and not from above.

Also, it might be better to show us the walk rather than the run because it's easier to crit a walk and see what you need to concentrate on, (once you understand the fundementals of a walk you'll be able to take those principles and apply it to a great run).

j

bobzilla
05-12-2003, 04:50 PM
In TAG's last post he put a link to a .zip file with the actual .c4d files in them which are better than watching the movie for studying purposes.

TAG-Thanks for posting your files, by the way!

I suppose nobody's cycles have delved into F-Curves yet?? They look like straight keys with no real timeing, right??

LucentDreams
05-12-2003, 05:51 PM
fcurves is almost always last or near last.

bobzilla
05-12-2003, 05:56 PM
That's what I figured. I've been reading a lot lately that a lot of animators rather get as much as they can timing keyframes and just tweaking the curces when needed afterwards.

That Adrian Guy
05-12-2003, 06:07 PM
Now you guys have me curious...

Maybe I should RTFM... but could anyone show me the effect of F curves?

Quite possibly on wolfie!?? Do I really need them???

bobzilla
05-12-2003, 06:22 PM
The F-Curves, AFAIK, would help in making the character motion less robotic. It helps with varied movements and subtleties that you might not be able to get with keys alone.

LucentDreams
05-12-2003, 06:41 PM
You don't need fcruves, you'll find many classically trained animators tend to key almost everything every frame, Fcurves allows you to to get the samme effects the classical guys are doing frame by frame, with a simple curve. so you can contol the speed between two keys, so for instance a guy alnding, you can move the curve clkoser to the crouch position and further from the foot contact position, so that when whe hits he comes fast and then slows down as he crouches.. OIne thing I'm sure PA will jump in to say, is that C4d's F-curves are incomplete, currently you can't apply a lot of mathematical functions to the cuvres, but thats a less importnat feature for character animators.

That Adrian Guy
05-12-2003, 07:17 PM
Oh... you're talking about that Yellow spline that shows the motion track? That's the F curve? I modify that thing all the time with the point select tool! It's really handy!

I thought F curves were that oscilloscope curvey time/space graph thing that's in the manual (that's way beyond my league. I just concentrate keyframes when I want stuff to slow down.

That feature would be nice to know, however

LucentDreams
05-12-2003, 07:23 PM
uhm thw two are one and the same sort of. thats yellow spline thing is tha animation patch, which is what the Fcurves control, the fcurves are the sort of time/space curve thingy.

AdamT
05-12-2003, 07:38 PM
Cinema has an F-curve manager. Probably the best way to figure out what it does is to open it up, add some tracks, and play with it a little. See what happens. Save your file first. :)

JIII
05-13-2003, 03:01 AM
arent you in RL7 adrian? I am certain that Fcurves are not in 7.

they do have the space time continium manager but thats pretty hard to deal with.

That Adrian Guy
05-13-2003, 03:20 AM
Hey JIII!!! THANKS FOR RUBBING IT IN!!!!!:D


Hey everyone!!! I'm still an XL 7 user! If you only knew how much I want R8! :drool:

sanciok
05-13-2003, 10:44 PM
Hi Adrian! Your files need more work, expecially on the feet!
Fcurves are the base of a good animation!
Now i have no time to help you to understand what i'm talking about, but i swear i'll post some good resources!!:bounce: :bounce:

smoke
05-16-2003, 01:06 PM
Well I actually finished my first walk cycle from scratch using Wolfie (thnx Adrian for making that available).

Question: is it possible to copy the key frame info from one spot to another on the F-curves? (F-curves rock:buttrock: )
I wanted my last frame (61) to match the first frame and then render 1 - 60 to get a good loop... can you then repeat the info from 1-60 in the f-curves?

Thnx in advance for any help:wavey:

MCGrund
05-16-2003, 01:59 PM
@smoke: Just copy (ctrl+drag) your first keyframes to the desired postion in the timeline. They should keep their F-Curve information.

AdamT
05-16-2003, 02:21 PM
You can also hold down [Shift] while scrubbing the timeline. For example:

*go to frame 1;
*hold down Shift;
*scrub to frame 61;
*click record.

smoke
05-16-2003, 02:50 PM
cool, thnx guys

flingster
05-16-2003, 09:01 PM
dunno if any of you guys have seen this thread by sanciok

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=62853

the link to download his rig is...
http://www.flingster.com/cgtalk/sanciok/NiceRig1.zip

if i'm outta line posting this in here...just shout and i'll remove it.
:beer:

sanciok
05-17-2003, 01:01 AM
Originally posted by flingster
dunno if any of you guys have seen this thread by sanciok

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=62853

the link to download his rig is...
http://www.flingster.com/cgtalk/sanciok/NiceRig1.zip

if i'm outta line posting this in here...just shout and i'll remove it.
:beer:

Thanks... i was here to write the same thing!! :beer: :thumbsup:

bobzilla
05-17-2003, 02:55 PM
Saniock: You're right! It IS a nice rig. It even seems to work on my Mac, which very few Soft IK rigs seem to do. Everything seems to bounce back to where it should when I Command-Z. the movement is nice and smooth. Very well done. I have yet to be successful with a full Soft IK rig. My dino rig is regular IK, sliders, and soft IK just for the tail.

Again...bravo!

AdamT
05-17-2003, 04:41 PM
Yep, it is a nice rig. Excellent job!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Not as nice as the Motion Builder rig mind you.... :)

Here's a lame little walk cycle I slapped together in 5 minutes (no hip, spine, or head action): http://bellsouthpwp.net/A/d/AdamTrachtenberg/Walk_Sanciok_Rig.avi

bobzilla
05-17-2003, 05:40 PM
Not bad for "slapping it together"! How difficult was it setting that up? I'm the doubting Thomas still on the fence about Motionbuilder. My goal has been to animate dinosaurs, and I'm wondering how "animal friendly" Motionbuilder is. To me, it seems mostly "human animation-centric" (Yeah, I made that term up!)

Is the app really easy to learn and set up characters?

flingster
05-17-2003, 06:03 PM
i think you gotta really read the motionbuilder thread..something like "is motionbuilder really necessary for us"

AdamT
05-17-2003, 09:15 PM
Bobzilla,

That little walk thingy was done using Sanciok's rig in Cinema! The answer to "do we really need Motion Builder?" is "NO!" One can get along perfectly well with Cinema's tools. OTOH, if you want to use mocap animation, have truly portable rigs and clips, and generally have a more sophisticated animation system....

I guess I don't see why you're so tortured by this. :) If you do a lot of CA, or want to do more, get it. It's only $200!! It could pay for itself in half a day. OTOH, if you just want to learn about CA or do it for personal pleasure, Mocca should stand you in good stead.

sanciok
05-17-2003, 09:59 PM
Maybe i can give a try to make a non biped rig!
Are u interested?

flingster
05-17-2003, 10:16 PM
YES...totally.
:buttrock:

AdamT
05-17-2003, 11:27 PM
Definitely! Four-leggin'!

sanciok
05-17-2003, 11:49 PM
OK!
I'll see what i can do!
BTW... in the Rig i posted... i'd like to add a couple of controls to have the spine follow the arms whe pullig them away....
I have an idea... maybe i'll post the result!
I'd like to obtain something like the Filmbox human (i think is the same as motionbuilder).
I'm not sure to be able to do it... but i'll try!

sanciok
05-17-2003, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by AdamT
Bobzilla,

That little walk thingy was done using Sanciok's rig in Cinema! The answer to "do we really need Motion Builder?" is "NO!" One can get along perfectly well with Cinema's tools. OTOH, if you want to use mocap animation, have truly portable rigs and clips, and generally have a more sophisticated animation system....

I guess I don't see why you're so tortured by this. :) If you do a lot of CA, or want to do more, get it. It's only $200!! It could pay for itself in half a day. OTOH, if you just want to learn about CA or do it for personal pleasure, Mocca should stand you in good stead.

Adam i had the opportunity to work with MoCap (using a mechanical system... not the optical one)... actually the rig used was quite simple, nothing more than a standard rig. Consider that the MoCap rig was FK not IK so u didn't have any constraints... Maybe the optical system requires a more sophisticated rig... but i'm not sure about that!
MoCap makes things easier... but i prefer when animating by hand!

LucentDreams
05-18-2003, 01:03 AM
FInally looked at Sanciok's rig by request, sorry been really busy writing some curriculum for a 2 day workshop oi. :/

Anyways, I have to say its one of the better rigs I have seen, especially using all SIK. Biggest problem I see with it I have made examples of in this image

http://cgi.third-era.com/~kaiskai/misc/break.jpg

basically you can see I pulled the hand and head way off the rig, not a good thing, but a common thing animators can do especially when on a 2 day deadline.

Next is the knees. Coming from a classical background I love to be able to break knees, its a commmon cheat in classical animation, sometimes you an even go so far as to draw something backwards, like to keep the flow of motion draw a right hand one frame in an animation of a left hand, simply because you styill want the hand to look normal, but you need to have it follow the path of motion. to the human eye they won't notice in a single frame, or even when all frames arespread out on a single page. SEE frames 18 and 19 on page 279 of Richard William's Animator's Survival Kit for a perfect example. However this is a very bad thing if it happens when the animators doesnt' want it too. The idea is to restrict things like that from happening unless the animator fully intends to, in which he still has the ability. Great thing in cinema 4D is that almost everything is animatable, so you can make an expression that prevents that knee from going back, many would hate that and say its too limiting, but thew thing is if they need the knee to break like that, they can by animating the expression off. for those few times they need it off.

as for the head and hands, thats a much simpler issue. simply make it so they can't select those types of things, an animator should not be able to select a bone in the editor, they still can in ther OM, but in the editor it should be limited to controls. thats why in mine while I used nulls for effectors and goals, I used splines for the foot control, its not simply so I could make the fancy foot shape, its so that when the rig is finished I can restrict selection of everything but splines thus making it impossible to pull the rig apart in the editor without first conciously selecting the bon or null in the OM first.

Rigging is far more than a skeleton.

Very nice rig so far, one question I have sanciok is regarding your colours, they didn't make a lot of sense to me, how are your colours organised.

sanciok
05-18-2003, 02:58 AM
Originally posted by Kaiskai

Very nice rig so far, one question I have sanciok is regarding your colours, they didn't make a lot of sense to me, how are your colours organised.

:beer:
Uh... just because i wanted colours different from the usual green!

Btw i read with attenction yout crits... and i think i understood ALMOST everything.... and i agree with you.
I think is normal for a rig having strange position if u don't set rotation and translation limits... and in my rig there are not...
Then... i don't understan well what does it mean "break the knees"...:beer: if u need to have the knees inward... just move the knees controls inward... (but it is too obvious... so i'm sure u don't mean this...)
Last thing... I'm glad u liked it!
Thanks for your Commets!!!:buttrock: :buttrock:

BTW... i have to try using splines instead Nulls.... yes... yes...!!:thumbsup:

JIII
05-18-2003, 03:15 AM
well the knees break if they are too far foreward.

I think he meant it literally, as the knees look like they are borken.

LucentDreams
05-18-2003, 03:17 AM
Originally posted by sanciok
:beer:
Uh... just because i wanted colours different from the usual green!


Fair enough, generally you want to use colours to help organise and make tings easy to recognise, especially in cases where they may be looking at the bones withut the mesh, 3D often gets weird angles whre you might think your looking at the left side but your on the right or soemthing, use colours to help identify whats what, so different colours for different sides, or different colours for different limbs like arms and legs.

Originally posted by sanciok
Btw i read with attenction yout crits... and i think i understood ALMOST everything.... and i agree with you.
I think is normal for a rig having strange position if u don't set rotation and translation limits... and in my rig there are not...


I don't use SIK or C4D's IK limits either, I"m talking about making things like in the post I put it in, the knees should still point forward, an animator should not be able to accidently get it to that pose, in my rigs I set it up so its extremely hard to do this without conciously trying, with yours I simply pulled the rig forrward then down the back a bit and the legs knees were broken

Originally posted by sanciok
[BThen... i don't understan well what does it mean "break the knees"...:beer: if u need to have the knees inward... just move the knees controls inward... (but it is too obvious... so i'm sure u don't mean this...)
[/B]

LKook closely at the side view of the image I posted. Can your knees bend that way, its more like a bird biped than a human biped. for really snappy movement you occasionally might want to be able to do that, but very rare, especially in more realistic stuff, but even in cartoon stuff very rare that you do that. so why allow it to happen so easily? make it so that if the animator want to bend a knee like that once in a blue moon they can, but in usual everyday use they can't.

sanciok
05-18-2003, 03:29 AM
ok!
Now i undersood!

I have one question... How to avoid the leg boreaking when moving the rig as u did?
Expressions?
Moving also the legs goals..?
Change position to the Knee control in the Hierarcy so that moves with the Root bone?
I'm confused...
:surprised

LucentDreams
05-18-2003, 03:41 AM
Originally posted by sanciok
ok!
Now i undersood!

I have one question... How to avoid the leg boreaking when moving the rig as u did?
Expressions?
Moving also the legs goals..?
Change position to the Knee control in the Hierarcy so that moves with the Root bone?
I'm confused...
:surprised

well moving leg goals will fix it, which is why they are always important to have, but the thing is controlling the leg goals, the less the animator has to move them the better, again, allowing them the control when needed, but making it so its not always necessary, heirarchy will fix this to a point, but for the best setup I've seen you will have to use a expression wich connects two seperate heirarchies. I"m not going to go more detailed than that simply because I need material for the DVD. speaking of which any requests for the DVD, I"m currently exploring the dest smoothest IK/FK switching I can get.

sanciok
05-18-2003, 01:00 PM
Thanks Kai!! :thumbsup:
I'm not going to ask more :)
:bounce: :bounce:

bobzilla
05-18-2003, 03:07 PM
I've attached screen shot of the dino I'm planning on animating. I used Paul Everett's Visual Selector, which is very helpful. Between setting filters in Cinema and using visual selector, I can't choose anything that I'm not supposed to. With Visual Selector, I can also choose my PoseMixer objects very easily which I have quite a few of. The only IK is in the legs, the only Soft IK is in the tail. The rest are Set Driven keys and PoseMixer objects. Not only are they easier to use, but I always no where "square one" is if I screw up or have to start again.

bobzilla
05-18-2003, 03:27 PM
Larger pic...

Stray
05-19-2003, 04:45 AM
Hey Dudes,

Who do I talk to about having my rig posted? I have a pretty stable leg rig. It has a few quirks but it has come through in a pinch.

FYI it uses the Multi-target plug so go and get that freebie over at www.plugincafe.com

-Stray

JIII
05-19-2003, 05:37 AM
maybe you could PM flingster

he seems to host stuff sometimes.

him or koyatus.

flingster
05-19-2003, 01:27 PM
Stray: just mail me and i'll upload it for ya if youre desperate.
my mail is on my signature..
:thumbsup: hope this helps.

MCGrund
05-19-2003, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by Stray
Hey Dudes,

...

FYI it uses the Multi-target plug so go and get that freebie over at www.plugincafe.com

...


The link provided at plugincafe doesn't seem to work. For those also interested in this plug here's the direct link MultiTarget (http://www.jeremyw.com/C4D_Stuff/MultiTarg/MultiTarg.html).

flingster
05-20-2003, 03:19 PM
OK everybody Stray's leg rig can be found at

ZIP file - need multitarget plugin
http://www.flingster.com/cgtalk/stray/Leg_Rig.zip

or SIT file - need multitarget plugin
http://www.flingster.com/cgtalk/stray/Leg_Rig.sit

don't foget to thank him..

:thumbsup:

Stray
05-20-2003, 07:33 PM
First off , thanks for hosting my files Flingster.

Sorry it took me so long to get it to you guys. Hopefully no one has lost interest in it....

To make a long story short. I saw a tutorial on a rotate plane solver and reverse foot in Maya, and wanted something like this in Cinema.

You animate this rig using the object hierarchy outside of the rig. They have sliders that govern pivots at the ball and toe of each foot so you don't have to unfold them to get to their functionality. The heel was left without a slider so that the animator would have more freedom with it's manipulation.

To rotate the knee us the triangle "Up_Vectors" that are in front of the hips.

The feet have an expression on them so that they don't go through the floor.

The hips use the center hips Xpresso expression.

I basically wanted to make a rotate plane type solver so that the knees actually rotated across a single "hinge" axis like they do in real life. I couldn't get a faithful knee rotation out of MOCCA. They were always more cartoony simulations of what a knee really does.

Yeah, I messed with the limit settings and anchor strength in MOCCA. But it didn't work.
So I went another route.

This rig does suffer from some null slippage although it doesn't distort or pinch the mesh when it does. I cannot explain why it does this, but what the hell it works.

Let me know what you guys think
-Stray.:)

JIII
05-21-2003, 03:04 AM
man this is awesome it really does behave like a real knee.

now only to figure the upper body out... :)

flingster
05-21-2003, 12:25 PM
certainly good control...i ultimate rig really has to have this ideal control of the correct movement of a human leg...imho.

would like to know what kai, adamt and adrians thoughts are on both strays and sanciok rigs....the more experienced user so to speak...rather than my total noob comments!

also their thoughts on quadrapeds.

seems quiet...just wondering whether you lot are busy adapting your rigs with ideas from both rigs...or you think there are issues you would want sorting before going a particular route?
:shrug: :wip:

LucentDreams
05-21-2003, 05:01 PM
Hehe Seems stray's been using a lot of the same rigging stuff as me, our rigs have a lot in common, even the colour coding is similar

Definitely impressive that its all using SIK (well he's using multitarget for a pole vector, which was something I had to use a workaround for. too, I think thats one areas SIK really fails is for good knee or elbow control.)

as for sancioks I already commented on it, very good and the flaws in his are few and somewhat picky. one of them, the fact that I could pull the bone of the rig, is a common issue, that most people don't worry about, even stray's has that issue. Stray's rig will seriously help you guys out a lot, and the fact he wasy able to keep it all SIK adds a certain advantage over mine in the fact that those rare times where you wanna streth a limb or something, you can animate the hold position off, so that the arm can stretch, and then when it returns to a normal length, animate hold position back on.

bobzilla
05-21-2003, 07:20 PM
STRAY: You mentioned in your rig description that you had "null slippage". I had the same thing in my dino rig when I used the Center Hips expression. The null I used to guide the hip (and pretty much the whole rig) would slip back and forth no matter how I placed it or where in the hierarchy I placed it. There's no visible difference in the mesh unless I looked at the mesh in poly or points and it looked like the entire mesh shifted. Very strange. Not sure if this is what you were talking about.

Oh, BTW...great leg rig! I've been grabbing everybody'd leg rigs and trying to conform them to my dino leg which has a very high ankle and works a littl differently.

Again...nice work!

Stray
05-21-2003, 07:35 PM
Hey flingster you are right it has been pretty quiet around here...

Yeah, I usually turn pick masking on as to not select the bones. They are all controlled by the nulls. The only thing on the hip hierarchy that should be animated is the top null.

Has anyone made an up-vector targetting XPressp expression? Multi-target is great but hasn't been updated.

I tried to use MOCCA for up-vectoring but it caused a serious jitter in the standard IK rig . Mostly in the foot and screwed with it's accuracy.

Kai , what are you using for pole vectors?
I like your gorilla, he is cool :buttrock:

-stray

sanciok
05-22-2003, 07:50 PM
Nice rig man!! Nice rig!!!!

LucentDreams
05-23-2003, 12:54 AM
I'm using Expresso and a two thighbone setup with SIK and Hard IK. I've been looking at bjorns targeting expression, and PA designed a nice plugin for this, but none of them work the way I want it to, so far the two bone systems seems to be the best. Steve townrow was the one who showed it to me, I"ve touched it up a little for my liking, but it works, little more diffictult to set up, but your target is also your upvector no bad rotations.

bobzilla
05-23-2003, 12:33 PM
Kai: Have you tried NAAM's coffee expression to control bone rotation? Wes Ware had a leg set up using NAAM's expression which I used (with some adjustments) for my dino, and I don't seem to have any rotation problems. Then again, my dino's not going to be doing any gymnastics, either!!

Stray
05-23-2003, 01:08 PM
Yeah,

mine suffers from flipping in extreme poses too. I just have to keep the up vectors within a certain range between the hip and toe at a certain orientation. It is kind of non intuitive for someone who doesn't understand what is going on.

I wish that someone would create a quaternion based up vector thingy. that way the up vector handle could be constrained to the hiearchy without flipping because the axi wouldn't overwrite each other.

It would be cool. The up vector handle would rotate on the Pitch and Bank value (respectively) of the leg hierarchy but control the Heading. It would be totally intuitive.

I keep bringing this up periodically on the various forums. Everyone thinks I am a crack pot or something. If I knew C++ ( have tried to learn. Have failed to learn) I would write the damn thing myself.

Hell, Hash animation master has quaternions...

Jenna 2 will supposedley have some sort of quaternion function. we will see.

For the time being I am figuring things out in HPB space..

Looking good Kai. Can't wait to checkout your dvd . C4D needs more of that sort of thing.

peace folks
-Stray:airguitar

LucentDreams
05-23-2003, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by bobzilla
Kai: Have you tried NAAM's coffee expression to control bone rotation? Wes Ware had a leg set up using NAAM's expression which I used (with some adjustments) for my dino, and I don't seem to have any rotation problems. Then again, my dino's not going to be doing any gymnastics, either!!

Yes I know the expression well, I released a really simple rig I've used with students that includes that expresion. it was posted up here ages ago It didn't flip a whole lot in somewhat normal use, but in extreme but still posible poses problems could happen. Its a great alternative for XL 7 though, I used it a ot, but with expresso being available and either multi target or SIK there much better ways to do it.

bobzilla
05-23-2003, 05:30 PM
The one thing I like about the coffee expression is there are no other targets to move around. With SIK, it seems you wind up with a lot of up vectors everywhere. I have one of Steve Townrow's leg rigs. Yes, that one is very good. Again, though, it seemed easy to spin the leg bones.

flingster
05-23-2003, 05:42 PM
another tut i spotted...will put it in this thread so they are altogether.

Mocca - Boning the Mime Character in R8

http://www.jam-digital.com/cow_challenges/challenge_1/rigging_the_mime.htm

quaternions...huh...there was some discussion as to whether the ohm mechanics plugin did quaternions...can;t remember the end result...but maybe its worth checking out...or maybe a search might help you on here...:shrug:

LucentDreams
05-23-2003, 05:45 PM
his old XL7 rigs did suffer from that, then he got golem, now he has SIK s his rigs have changed a fair bit.

as for the advantage of no upvetor to have to deal with, thats also its flaw, because on the rare occasion that it does flip, it will not be possible to fix, where as with upvectors you canby simply moving the upvecotr up or to a side or however you need to.

One thing you may like about my rig, is the way the upvector is setup. While it is floating there, the foot stil works similar to that old expression, so you don't need to move the upvector around unless you have a problem of flippinng. However, in the case of a foot being plante on an angle, you can control the height or rotation angle of the knee as an option using the polevector too.

bobzilla
05-23-2003, 06:05 PM
Can I get a sample of your rig? I'll trade you my dino for one of yours, maybe. You can probably make a lot of improvements to mine. Ir's my first rig so I was basically going by the kind and generous help of you nice folfs in all of these Cinema forums.

My email: bob@theiguanaden.com

AdamT
05-23-2003, 06:09 PM
Once you get a pretty stable rig I think it's a good idea to hide the extraneous nulls representing the constraints and up vectors that you won't be manipulating very often. Some of the lines can't be gotten rid of, but they're not that distracting.

LucentDreams
05-23-2003, 06:44 PM
sometimes those lines are distracting, sometimes not, its its two or four then its not a big issue, but when you have thighs shins spine upper and forarm, man they get a little annoying. but yeah hide what doesnt' need to be seen.

BOBZILLA. you can get my rig when the CD is out. ca't say exactly when as Expose is taking a fair bit of time right now (I really want an image in there), but its in the works. My goal is before the end of june which is a fairly easy goal I hope to be faster than that.

bobzilla
05-23-2003, 07:00 PM
KAI: Gotcha. Looking forward to the CD.

AdamT: Using Visual Selector from Paul Everett helps tremendously with selection and restriction of selection. Highly recommended. And a snap to set up.

bobzilla
05-23-2003, 08:58 PM
Spesking of Steve Townrow (well, we did earlier), his weightlifter guy is amazing. It looks like MoCap. I's so precise and he's picked up on all the subtle movements of actually doing that. The foot shifts, the hesitation, the shaking at the end...quite amazing.

jimarse
05-25-2003, 07:00 PM
For computer walk cycles:


http://www.3dluvr.com/alexmateo/kyle_balda.htm


The link was originally posted in the animation forum.

flingster
05-26-2003, 02:45 PM
now thats a cool link...thanks for reposting it..:thumbsup:

Zephirus
05-28-2003, 12:17 PM
This is a great thread but something is missing. I've been doing some animations for sprite based games and now I need to make one for a 3d animation. In all those posts, no one has spoken about how to LOOP that animation.

Lets say, I want my guy to take a few steps to a box, turn around and then walk again. Do I have to make all those steps by hand or is there a way to repeat the keyframes 3 times?


I have cinema 4d r8 and no modules at all.

LucentDreams
05-28-2003, 06:30 PM
if you character is walking in a straightline on the X axis lets say simply copy the key frameas a few times, or shorten the sequence to match only those keyframes and then just copy the seguence however many times, you should now have a cycle in one spot.

Now theres three ways you can go from here.

You can go the first way of classical and flash animation and simply group your entire character in a nul and move that unll forward at the same pace so its appears he's walking forward, this can often lead to foot slippage.

You can do the second way its done in classical and flash, and simply move the anvironment and/or camera to make him appear as if he's movie

or the third way which can only be done in 3D, you can use the Fcurve and select the key on the X axis curves, (make sure its a whole cycle and not individual keys) and then move them up or down (depending on whether walking x+ or x-) however far you need to to make him move convincingly.

Zephirus
05-28-2003, 09:45 PM
is there a way to copy more than 1 keyframe at a time? It seems that when I select them all and copy/paste, it only does one.


Thx for that Fcurve thingy, I'll look into it. Still got to learn a lot about that :)

JIII
05-29-2003, 01:26 AM
you should be able to conrol drag as many keys as you want.

dandavis
06-12-2003, 02:05 PM
Holy crap! I had no idea this thread was so interesting. Maybe I'll get in on this (way late).

sanciok
06-12-2003, 07:09 PM
http://space.virgilio.it/millo709@virgilio.it

Have a look here! U'll find some animation tests of mine!

B-A-R
06-13-2003, 08:21 AM
Wow, this thread is opening a lot of doors for me. I used to work with XL7 and tried some boning in these days, It just wouldn't work the way i wanted..
But now i'm working with 8.1 ,saw this thread and thought what the hell, let's give it another try.
Followed the steps from flingster and found out that boning has become a lot easier..I actualy began to understand the why's and the what's hehehe....

So i can only say one thing...

THANKS A LOT EVERYONE, for sharing this with us !!:applause: :applause:

Stray
06-13-2003, 08:44 AM
Hey All,

It has just been brought to my attention from Sanciok that my rig suffers from a peculiar glitch. It would seem that the toes will sometime scale all weird after some use.

I have isolated the problem and come up with a fix for it. I have sent the new rig off to Flingster. Hopefuly he will be nice enough to repost it for me.

For you guy who can't wait. What you basically do is go into each toe in the bone hierarchy and delete the multi-target in the toe (not the foot though, that one is okay).

Then place an IK tag on the toe . Tick all of the hpb and set the H and B values to min/max at 0.

On the Pitch give it a -90/90 degree min and max. Then give it a damping of 60%.

Then it should all be fixed.

I don't know if anyone is using it at all. But if any of you are having trouble I can e-mail it to you. I am also working on a full rig for the whole body that is almost ready to post.

can't wait to see the animations people are cooking up...

Good stuff Sanciok!!
-Stray

flingster
06-23-2003, 07:52 PM
B-A-R : can't take credit for the tuts i'm afraid...much as i'd like to...glad you liked them though.

Stray: sorry matey...been away for 2 weeks....italy...when i got back yesterday my service providers mail service failed so they have been busy restoring my mail...hopefully i got everything...so i will upload it asap...not had chance to read either of your mails but i will get back to you as soon as poss.....cheers for the patience...:shrug:

mimo8
07-01-2003, 08:19 PM
what´s your approach to mirror a animation?

once you´ve set up a working movement/circle for one leg do you mirror the whole leg with the mocca mirror tool?
do you copy the keyframes in the timeline?
how do you edit both sides of the leg?
by re-editing one side, mirroring it aggain.

this does not work too good once you´ve weightpainted the skin (also when you use claude bonet - I experienced some weaknesses / wrong weighted points when I did)

would be quite interesting to me how you get a workflow on that
hope not to ask a question that has been answereded before ;)

That Adrian Guy
07-06-2003, 05:34 AM
what about rigging the arm?

Do you guys put anchors on the shoulders? IK targets on the fingers?

How come the IK restraints don't work... ?

Arms are just as important, ain't they?

Also... can you have a single bone that movies all of the specific digits of the hand while being able to maintain individual bones in each finger?

Kaydara has that feature I think

Stray
07-06-2003, 05:47 AM
I use a similar approach to rigging my arms than i do with my legs. Up vector and all.

As for the hands i have a quirky way of manipulating them. I move the palm around with up vectors.

As for the fingers I give them all of their IK limits respectively. I then put a null at each tip and instead of using the IK expression. I turn on autokeyframing and then go into the ik tool and then move each finger around separately.

Auto keyframing records keys for each fingers digits.

So the actual bones in the fingers are where the keyframes are recorded. I know it sounds strange but it gives a really kinda custom look to the hand animations. I have another way of dealing with forearm rotations. although I don't have time right now to get in to it...

peace
-Stray

LucentDreams
07-06-2003, 08:18 AM
Maybe a second thread, specificaly for arms would be better?

Anyways, like stray, I use almost the same seup as I do for my legs, from thigh null to ankle matches Shoulder to wrist. Thats all I use IK on, you could use IK on the palm as well, this is an area I"m still debating as to which I prefer, but for fingers I"d never use IK perrsonaly, FK and Driven keys are the best way to go with fingers IMO, mainly because the metacarpals are only capable of tortatin on X and a little on Y, and the phalanges are only normally capable (unless you like to crack your knuckles like I do) of rotating on X, so why mesh with IK and restraints when you can simply only ortate them on Y, with sliders fro the metacarpal's called spread which spreads each ginger out by rotating on Y.

seger
12-29-2004, 11:56 PM
It's much later now in the season and I haven't read this whole walking thread but I just watched "The Incredibles" and what they still can't do is make good walking movement. All the rest can be done nowadays :)

You have to go and see it. It's fantastic.

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