HMC #13 Louvre: Pradier - "Satyre et Bacchante"

[Lun3]

I'm planning to use Zbrush only, so I started with Zspheres. I don't want to do anything with symmetry because I though I wouldn't be able to reproduce the anatomy and expressivity of the original this way ( not that I can do it anyway, but I felt more confortable this way :wise: ).

I placed the Satyre first :

http://forums.cgsociety.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=124787&stc=1

Quickly reshaped it and placed the Bacchante :

http://forums.cgsociety.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=124788&stc=1

Then reshaped her :

http://forums.cgsociety.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=124789&stc=1

[Lun3]

I spent some time shaping and detailing various areas, here is what i've got actually ( I lowered the subdivisions because some parts are detailed and other not at all, and it gives a strange look :scream: ) :


http://forums.cgsociety.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=124790&stc=1

and here is a picture to show the method I'm going to use to sculpt the Bacchante's hair :

http://forums.cgsociety.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=124791&stc=1

[WyattHarris]

Looking really good so far. The poses are spot on.

[Lun3]

Looking really good so far. The poses are spot on.
Glad to read that, I wasn't sure of it at all. I hope that I'll be able to keep it faithful until the end :D .

[Sandr0]

Looking very cool so far :thumbsup: Keep it up

[DivineRAiN]

looking really nice so far. It's going to be interesting to see your work on this one

[Lun3]

Looking very cool so far :thumbsup: Keep it up
looking really nice so far. It's going to be interesting to see your work on this one
Thanks you both for your support ! :love:
I'll probably take some time to update this Sunday.

[Rod Seffen]

Nice choice.
A high degree of technical difficulty compared to other entries I've seen - hair, fur, cloth, 4 dynamically posed hands - for which you should get extra points.

[Lun3]

Nice choice.
A high degree of technical difficulty compared to other entries I've seen - hair, fur, cloth, 4 dynamically posed hands - for which you should get extra points.
When I picked it I was just thinking "Oh, this one is cool" and now I curse myself for how stupid I have been :D - and slowly realise the incredible knowledge and skill a master like Pradier had...

Here is an update showing my global progression. I actually don't consider any part of it being finalised. The global shapes are definitives ( unless anyone spot some major inconsistencies ) but I didn't work on anatomical subtleties yet. I am also having troubles with the faces and the fur, but I'll come back on this later because I want to give a try on clothes.

http://forums.cgsociety.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=124997&stc=1

[LordCandy]

I've browsed CGTalk before, particularly 3d stills, but watching this challenge is great.

So far, from a normal person's point of veiw, it looks excellent! I can't wait to see more progression.

Candy

[Sandking]

When I see things like this I just want to give up with my own straight away! :] Great job!

[krynn72]

Hmm, it looks like there are some strange indentions on his left forearm that shouldnt be there. Also, I think his forearm is too wide in general, because looking at your reference in the first post, the bottom of his forearm doesnt drop down nearly as much as your model's does.

Also, I cant tell if the perspective is different in your latest render is off from the reference, but it looks like the satyrs head should be angled down more, and tilted to his left a bit. I think the Bacchante's head should also be tilted to her right a little too, since in the reference you can see her left eye a lot more than you can in your render. Again, that may just be because of the angle im seeing it from though.

[Sandr0]

Nice update..

There's something weird happening with satyr's leg (knee area) It's bent in an unnatural way

[Rod Seffen]

As ever, I don't see the point in commenting WIPs. I prefer to wait until the person says they are done. I just assume you are going to fix anything before the end, so there's no point in mentioning it now.
You certainly have the essence of the pose there already, and that's a good starting point.

[Lun3]

I've browsed CGTalk before, particularly 3d stills, but watching this challenge is great.

So far, from a normal person's point of veiw, it looks excellent! I can't wait to see more progression.

Candy

When I see things like this I just want to give up with my own straight away! :] Great job!
Thanks for your encouragements !
Next update won't come before the weekend because I will have less free time this week.



Hmm, it looks like there are some strange indentions on his left forearm that shouldnt be there. Also, I think his forearm is too wide in general, because looking at your reference in the first post, the bottom of his forearm doesnt drop down nearly as much as your model's does.

Also, I cant tell if the perspective is different in your latest render is off from the reference, but it looks like the satyrs head should be angled down more, and tilted to his left a bit. I think the Bacchante's head should also be tilted to her right a little too, since in the reference you can see her left eye a lot more than you can in your render. Again, that may just be because of the angle im seeing it from though.

Nice update..

There's something weird happening with satyr's leg (knee area) It's bent in an unnatural way
Thanks for pointing out some of the errors that I made, I will investigate on the body parts you
mentioned :D.




As ever, I don't see the point in commenting WIPs. I prefer to wait until the person says they are done. I just assume you are going to fix anything before the end, so there's no point in mentioning it now.
You certainly have the essence of the pose there already, and that's a good starting point.
I am reassured to read this, I spent a lot of time working on it on a short period, so I was afraid not having enough detachment. I feel better now :wise:.

[krynn72]

As ever, I don't see the point in commenting WIPs. I prefer to wait until the person says they are done. I just assume you are going to fix anything before the end, so there's no point in mentioning it now.
You certainly have the essence of the pose there already, and that's a good starting point.


Seriously? Whats the point in waiting until they're done with it and cant change it? The point in making a WIP thread is to get critiques on your progress so you can know you're going in the right direction. You should stop assuming people see the same things you do, and instead post something helpful which they may have not thought of. Critiquing something when its done doesnt help the artist at all. Critiquing it when its being worked on helps them make it better.

[Rod Seffen]

This isn't the wip forum.
The threads in this hardcore modeling forum are not cries for help, but rather it's meant to be a way of sharing your progress for less skilled people to see how it's done.
Mini-tutorials if you like.
I think it's more interesting to see what someone can do on their own and what their weak areas show up to be.
You're wrong in assuming that it doesn't help to be told where you went wrong after you've finished.
You can then take that knowledge on to every piece you do for the rest of your life.
I see every piece I do as nothing more than a learning exercise to improve my next one a little bit more.

[RobertoOrtiz]

Well I have no problem with comments on the WIP threads.
BTW great work so far.
-R

[Vincenzi]

Seriously? Whats the point in waiting until they're done with it and cant change it? The point in making a WIP thread is to get critiques on your progress so you can know you're going in the right direction. You should stop assuming people see the same things you do, and instead post something helpful which they may have not thought of. Critiquing something when its done doesnt help the artist at all. Critiquing it when its being worked on helps them make it better.

Another reason I see in waiting until someone is at least mostly done, is that if you don't and critique while it's still WIP, you might point out issues that the artist is already aware of, since they're still working on it.

[krynn72]

you might point out issues that the artist is already aware of, since they're still working on it.

Whats the problem with that though? That causes no harm, and can only reassure them that they're doing the right move by changing it. If you dont mention it though, they may never see it until its too late, and then the piece is diminished slightly because of it. Better to mention it, than to assume it will be fixed, as with everything in life.

You're wrong in assuming that it doesn't help to be told where you went wrong after you've finished.
You can then take that knowledge on to every piece you do for the rest of your life.

Of course. Im not saying critiques of finished work are useless. They can be helpful for their next project, but so can critiques during WIP phase. But an extra bonus of WIP critiques is that it can help their current piece too. Any critique can be brough up and utilized later in new projects, but on WIP critiques can help the current project. Like I said above, theres no harm in mentioning something they may already know about, but not saying it could mean they dont deal with that issue, and it could lower the final quality of their project.

Also, I thought the purpose of the WIP thread was to get comments and critiques from other. If its just to show the artist's process, then my mistake.

Sorry for taking this thread off on this tangent though Lun3. Im looking forward to seeing updates!

[Lun3]

Update :


I had bad feedbacks about the material and lights that I used for the last image, so this time it's a matcap I created from my references, rendered without shadows.

I also worked on the problematic areas that krynn72 and sandr0 mentionned, and tried to get more serious facials expressions.




http://forums.cgsociety.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=125376&stc=1



I am in the middle of the cloth modeling but I think that what I have now is enough to show how I choosed to proceed. I divided clothes in eight parts to have better control over my polygons amount and be able to work on them separately. I divide the sclupting in three steps :

1 (blue) - I place a rough form on space and draw fine lines on it helped by my references images.
2 (green) - Using theses landmarks, I work on my forms in space until it looks coherent on all three dimensions.
3 (red) - I clean all the padding and imperfections I left, and sculpt the finest details.



This image shows the process from the begining to the end (from right to left) :


http://forums.cgsociety.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=125375&stc=1


And this one shows wich part I consider being at wich step (I used different variations of red blue and green to help distinguish how I splitted the cloth).


http://forums.cgsociety.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=125377&stc=1

[LordCandy]

Great job so far man! The only things I'm noticing are his head is still up a little too far, in the original it looks like he's looking down at her breasts, but it yours he's looking at her face and also in the original she has a bun in her hair, and that's missing from yours...

Other than those, I think it's looking awesome!

Candy

[Rod Seffen]

The eyes are looking at her face in the original, so that is correct.
The pose and general proportions are fine now, at least from this one angle we've seen so far, you just need to tighten up on the anatomical detail, and generally sharpen up the sculpting, since it has that rather soft digital look as yet.

Don't forget you can use the clay tool in zbrush to melt two separate pieces of geometry together to make it look like a solid whole, which is useful for this type of work, where it's meant to be solid marble.

[LordCandy]

The eyes are looking at her face in the original, so that is correct.
The pose and general proportions are fine now, at least from this one angle we've seen so far, you just need to tighten up on the anatomical detail, and generally sharpen up the sculpting, since it has that rather soft digital look as yet.

Don't forget you can use the clay tool in zbrush to melt two separate pieces of geometry together to make it look like a solid whole, which is useful for this type of work, where it's meant to be solid marble.
Well, you could assume the eyes are looking at her, yes, but his head is more down towards her chest, not her face.

Candy

[Lun3]

Thanks both for your constructives critics, I will work on these things in priority. I will probably update tomorrow.

[WyattHarris]

Its hard to say exactly what it is. His head is down farthur. I think its due to his abdomin being a little longer making her arms a little longer. Its very close either way.

[Lun3]

I worked on anatomical details, head orientation and arm/torso length. The bun was here but totally misplaced. Anyway, I decided start her hairdress over because I didn't paid enough attention to it the first time. I won't update until I consider the cloth being finished, wich will certainly take at least a week because I won't have much occasions to work on it.

And by the way, the reason you've seen seen just one angle until now is that the back is actually not worth to see. I know I'd better bring every piece to the same level of detail, but I need to fill my portfolio as soon as possible so I focused on the angle I found the most interesting.

http://forums.cgsociety.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=125609&stc=1

[LordCandy]

It almost (for me) feels weird saying "much better", considering how well you've been doing so far in general, but you seize to amaze me... But, it's much better.... Very nice!

Candy

[WyattHarris]

Detail is even better, very nice. Looks like most of the remaining details are in the texture of the material now. The Satyre's horns need some adjusting. Your's are more spikes than in the original.


Fantastic work so far.

[Rod Seffen]

Yes, this is competent work. You've defintely reached the level where you can portray pose and anatomy in a mostly correct, but mechanical way, but this is just the first, and easiest, stage of leaning of course.
You can now move on to the next stage of studying the subtle and complex nature of anatomy on a more detailed level.
The hands and feet on this for example, and quite simplistic, and you could easily spend a year just studying hands alone to understand the subtle rhythms, planes and complex topology of intertwining masses to a level that these neoclassical sculptors had.
I'm far from that goal yet myself, and I've been studying anatomy of 18 months now.
Artistic anatomy at the very highest level takes many years of hard study.

edit: I have to mention that this work is a lot better and shows a lot more understanding than the sculpture copy that recently got on the front page and into the award gallery, and that's my expert-ish opinion.
However, the front page and the ward gallery is totally biased toward kewl renders.
It doesn't matter how much of a master sculptor you are, you'll never see any recognition unless you do a kewl render of it. The model itself can be worthless naive crap as long as you do kewl render of it.

[Lun3]

It almost (for me) feels weird saying "much better", considering how well you've been doing so far in general, but you seize to amaze me... But, it's much better.... Very nice!

Candy

Thanks :)

Detail is even better, very nice. Looks like most of the remaining details are in the texture of the material now. The Satyre's horns need some adjusting. Your's are more spikes than in the original.


Fantastic work so far.
You are right again, I totally neglected the horns. Thanks for helping !

Yes, this is competent work. You've defintely reached the level where you can portray pose and anatomy in a mostly correct, but mechanical way, but this is just the first, and easiest, stage of leaning of course.
You can now move on to the next stage of studying the subtle and complex nature of anatomy on a more detailed level.
The hands and feet on this for example, and quite simplistic, and you could easily spend a year just studying hands alone to understand the subtle rhythms, planes and complex topology of intertwining masses to a level that these neoclassical sculptors had.
I'm far from that goal yet myself, and I've been studying anatomy of 18 months now.
Artistic anatomy at the very highest level takes many years of hard study.

edit: I have to mention that this work is a lot better and shows a lot more understanding than the sculpture copy that recently got on the front page and into the award gallery, and that's my expert-ish opinion.
However, the front page and the ward gallery is totally biased toward kewl renders.
It doesn't matter how much of a master sculptor you are, you'll never see any recognition unless you do a kewl render of it. The model itself can be worthless naive crap as long as you do kewl render of it.

It is encouraging that you consider me on the right path, I am strongly hoping to really master all this one day. I realise how far I am from it, but I never give up :thumbsup:




I am actually doing my best on clothes but I have hard times trying to correctly retranscribe his thickness and steepness (not sure it is the right word, I hope you get the idea. Else, blame my online translator :D ). It will take at least a few more days as expected.

[Lun3]

Final Submission

I wasn't aware that the deadline was so near, I had to put off the challenge for a week so my work hasn't progressed much. I think I spent around 80 hours on it, mainly because I took the opportunity to try multiple ways to sculpt hair, clothes and skin, and find the ones I am the most comfortable with.
There are a few more WIP in my portfolio if you are interested in.



Satyre et Bacchante - Beauty render
http://b.imagehost.org/0384/final.jpg

Green roma + Occlusion. The most advanced side of the sculpture. I should have spent way more time than I did to even finish this side. It was definately dumb to choose this statue for a one-month challenge :wise: .



Satyre et Bacchante - Orthographic renderings
http://b.imagehost.org/0384/ortho.jpg

Material: LBrownClay. For the first time you can see the dark side of my sculpture :rolleyes: .



Satyre et Bacchante - Wireframe
http://b.imagehost.org/0384/wire.jpg

Totally uninteresting since I started with Zspheres and didn't retopologize anything in order to save time. The problem is I had to give up rendering in another software, because the displacement map was creating artefacts on stretched areas :sad: .

[spleek]

Great work! Hair and drapery are definitely tough but your result turned out really well on them. The deadline just creeps up on you doesnt it?

[Rod Seffen]

Even the 'dark side' holds up well.
We have a definite winner here.

[LordCandy]

NICE!!

I am very impressed with the final product man!!!

Great job, and I look forward to seeing more work from you! :)

Candy

[Lun3]

Great work! Hair and drapery are definitely tough but your result turned out really well on them. The deadline just creeps up on you doesnt it?
Yeah, I needed to spend lot more time to finish it. But in a way, I am glad the challenge has ended because I am not satisfied about many parts of the sculpture, and instead of reworking them once more I'd rather use what I have learned on a new model.

Even the 'dark side' holds up well.
We have a definite winner here.
Thanks, but I am not that confident. There were a few nice final images posted today and it's probably not over yet ! :thumbsup:

NICE!!

I am very impressed with the final product man!!!

Great job, and I look forward to seeing more work from you! :)

Candy
Thank you ! And for my next personal work, I already thought about something. It will be on the WIP forum soon. :D

[RobertoOrtiz]

Heads up!

HCR Treasures of the Louvre - POST YOUR FINAL ENTRY (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=208&t=617156)

[RobertoOrtiz]

Congratz!
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b216/robertoortiz1/cgtalk/17.gif

[CGTalk Moderation]

This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.