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corella02
02-29-2008, 07:41 PM
I really do not understand this. Any Object that containes triangles, no matter what format i use, has wrong normals as soon as i turn on "smooth". I modelled a very simple box made of triangles, exported as .obj from XSI and loaded in messiah just to veryfiy. And no, it is not possible to model quads only, since a lot of the models i use come from libraries. I think even the simplest 3d app handles triangles, and i do not even talk about subdivision.
I had the same problem in 2.0 and 2.5 on different machines, with objects of all kind.
I have attached the test scene. Can please anyone check this out and tell me whats wrong?

C.

dobermunk
03-01-2008, 09:09 PM
hmmm. triangles can be a problem in messiah, but not like your image shows. I'd tip that you have doubled polygons. Have you checked that? Sorry if its something else...

edit:
just loaded your box and it was displayed as your image. I then created a new box in LW, with the same number of polys, triangled them... imported into messiah 3.0 and it displayed fine. Something's up with theat geometry, but there were no doubled polys and no twin points.

What did you generate it in?

Gene Williams
03-01-2008, 10:14 PM
Same thing here, took the original box and saved as a LW object, reimported and displayed fine.
Same geometry...all triangles.

corella02
03-01-2008, 11:37 PM
Try the following: download a arbitrary model from the internet in whatever format you like.
Load it in messiah and turn on "smooth", you will find, that in most cases youll have this problem.
At this point, Im very, very dissapointed. It looks like messiah reveals its potential only to lightwave users. This ist Version 3 and it has not yet evolved to keep the promise pmg has made.
Well yes, the renderer is finally working which is nothing but a bugfix and not a new feature.
The animation part was there from the beginning and the only host connection that fully works is the one for LW.
Of what use is an animation software that only handles geometrie from only one software? This is ridiculous.

This is going to the shelve for another 3 years

C.

PS: You see this effect only if you turn on "smooth" in the object settings.

My Fault
03-02-2008, 12:01 AM
You can also try what Gene mentioned. If the object is displaying weirdly in messiah, like your box, select it and go to the file tab and choose one of the Object export modules, for instance lightwave 6 export or wavefront obj. Then re-import that model you just exported. That fixed your cube problem for me.

kursad_pileksuz
03-02-2008, 01:01 AM
corella02 , Messiah officially supports quads due to some technical reasons. If you are not happy with it you should really really write Pmg and tell your frustration and why you need ngon support. That is the only way to go for a solution. Talking and expressing frustration in messiah forum wont get things fixed because people who write Messiah do not have time to stop by and read every post. I myself expressed the need for ngon support to Fori. But more people expressing the issue officialy will make it a stronger case.

dobermunk
03-02-2008, 08:22 AM
corella: if you want to connect to another software then I highly recommend the mdd pipeline. Setup in another software with deformation tagging the mdd cache and when you alter the animation in messiah, re-writing this cache updates your render scene.
This works wonderfully with xsi. Also, if you're rendering in another package it doesn't matter that the display of ngons looks odd in messiah. It will export fine via mdd.

corella02
03-02-2008, 01:18 PM
You can also try what Gene mentioned. If the object is displaying weirdly in messiah, like your box, select it and go to the file tab and choose one of the Object export modules, for instance lightwave 6 export or wavefront obj. Then re-import that model you just exported. That fixed your cube problem for me.

Doesnt work - just play around a bit with the smooth angle parameter and there it is.

corella02 , Messiah officially supports quads due to some technical reasons.

Id really like to know what those reasons are...

If you are not happy with it you should really really write Pmg and tell your frustration and why you need ngon support. That is the only way to go for a solution. Talking and expressing frustration in messiah forum wont get things fixed because people who write Messiah do not have time to stop by and read every post. I myself expressed the need for ngon support to Fori. But more people expressing the issue officialy will make it a stronger case.

Im not posting here to get things fixed, but to share my thoughts and to verify things. Anyway I posted a lot about this issue a few years ago in the yahoo mailing list, when lyle was still around there, and did indeed listen. I just didnt expect the problem to be still there when i tested MSP3, so the next step is of course to contact support.

Also, if you're rendering in another package it doesn't matter that the display of ngons looks odd in messiah. It will export fine via mdd.

...hmmm.... trying to remember why i bought studio....

I use Point Oven for XSI and Messiah, but even LWOs, exported with point ovent display and render wrong in messiah.

What i want to do is this: Take a matchmoved Camera, load it in XSI, model some parts of the set, do some simulation maybe, take the preanimated scene, load it in messiah and bring a character and some props in the scene, animate it there, shade and render. This is not something completely weird, is it?
Anyway, good to know, theres other people who want the ngons. :)


C.

Nichod
03-02-2008, 01:51 PM
Id really like to know what those reasons are...



I think it has to do with the 'spline' based way Messiah converts models for realtime display and animation. I'd be happy if n-gons were supported for rendering. In this day and age n-gons are kind of needed.

jgj
03-02-2008, 06:33 PM
With the possible exception of those triangles, V3 seems to handle n-gons a lot better than before... if I'm understanding correctly. I've been loading in a bunch of LW-made objects, concave n-gons (extruded letters "E" "C", etc.), polys with holes ("O"), and boxes with other shapes boolean'd out, with smoothing on and off, and they all display and render ok.

I remember loading in some architectural models in 2.5 I think, with single poly walls full of window openings, and they were totally messed up in Messiah. Just tried a similar object, and it appears to be fine in V3.

-Jim

corella02
03-03-2008, 11:43 AM
Yep, it seems if the objects are generated in Lightwave there are no problems. But that doesnt help me for obvious reasons as im an XSI/Max user .

C.

Gene Williams
03-03-2008, 01:26 PM
Was going to say that of course you can export a LW object using pointoven out of XSI...
however, just tried a cylinder and the top of the cylinder which is made of some tris has the very
same faceting going on. That occurs with or without smoothing being on when the object is
subpatched, if not subpatched then then no faceting occurs. The optimum would be to have
support for ngons, which I know most everyone is hoping for.

Gene

catizone
03-03-2008, 01:40 PM
Okay, I made a box in MAX and exported it as obj, loaded it into messiah. It renders fine. Then add Metanurbs, which you called smoothing, and the "problem" arises.

I think the basic problem is that you are taking a technology called Metanubs, which is designed mainly for quads...altho the occassional tri is okay...and being surprised at an object which is all tris having a problem. You can't force something to do what it was not designed to do. Metanurbs are great.

The very simple solution is to save your object with and without a mesh smooth in MAX or xsi, and use that unsmoothed version to rig and animate in messiah....then swap out the models for final render. Something we did in the old days, and large studios still do, using a vey low poly standin for animating, and the hi-res for render.

Best,
Rick

corella02
03-05-2008, 02:39 PM
I think the basic problem is that you are taking a technology called Metanubs, which is designed mainly for quads...altho the occassional tri is okay...and being surprised at an object which is all tris having a problem. You can't force something to do what it was not designed to do. Metanurbs are great.

True. So i just use something else to get my jobs done, if that is what pmg is interested in... :rolleyes: But i wasnt even talking about metanurbs. And with smoothing I mean the "smooth" - shading in the object parameters. The problem has nothing to do with subdividing, but with wrong normals where more than 4 edges share one vertex.

The very simple solution is to save your object with and without a mesh smooth in MAX or xsi, and use that unsmoothed version to rig and animate in messiah....then swap out the models for final render. Something we did in the old days, and large studios still do, using a vey low poly standin for animating, and the hi-res for render.

Best,
Rick


Maybe it is still not clear. Sometimes you get models to work with, and you do not have influence on what tool it is made with. Simply saving in another format doesnt always help, i tried it. And those models do not render correctly, so the swapping will not help also. I think the whole "geometrie core" or what you want to call it of messiah needs a rework. And that isnt done because the displacement, and the softbodies and a few other things maybe depend on metanurbs, correct me if im wrong.

C.

spaz8
03-05-2008, 03:18 PM
My copy of Messiah is in the mail, but from what I understand Messiah uses the "old"? metanurbs/subpatch functionality LW had/has.. so only 3 and 4 point polys.. actually this limitation made me a much more disciplined modeler not being able to use n-gons and CC subd's. Anyways.. Messiah support n-gons? or does it triangulate them like say zbursh.

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