Workflow help

[opreska]

Hey Roberto,
I just jumped into game design myself. From what I've learned so far, always start with the low poly first. It'll make things so much easier in the long run when it comes time to actually implementing the model into the game. Trying to convert a million plus poly model down to say a six thousand poly, with correct edge loops, quad/tri polygons etc seems pretty inefficient IMO. I can understand if you're just doing a high poly posed model in ZBrush, for say a still or whatever, but, in game design, you have to think about the technical aspect of the art as well.

[blank]

One of the things to remember if your Zbrushing is that it helps to have a fairly uniform low poly mesh as a base so that as you increase the mesh density for sculpting it remains fairly uniform over the entire model.

Where as if you started with a fully finished low poly with the correct edge loops around the knees etc you may find that the density increases to much in certain areas and gives you a few headaches.

'Character modelling 2' book from ballistic has some nice explanations of the character pipeline for GoW.

In it they start with a lowish base mesh on to which to Sculpt the high poly, then after scupting they used the high poly as the template and worked back into the base mesh to produce the final Low poly mesh.

ZBrushed re-topology tool is pretty useful as well for high back down to low mesh

[Dagarik]

I made my first normal mapped character a few weeks ago, and I went the route of making the low poly mesh, exporting it to mudbox, sculpting and then importing it back in and generating the normal map in max. I have however seen people in video tutorials and people on this forum do the following process:

Make a low poly "base mesh" which has been quickly modeled to match the concept using only quads (using only quads makes supdivision sculpting (zbrush/mudbox) a lot cleaner).
Export to a sculpting program and sculpt away at it untill it is final.
Import it back into the modelling program (Max/Maya etc.)
Make the high poly sculpted mesh transparent and create a new low poly mesh from scratch to match the high poly, this time using triangles and such to be efficient.
This method sounds like a lot more work to me, but the people that I have seen doing it seem to really know what they are doing so my guess is that it is the best way to do it. But then I could be wrong.

[Riveramaze]

Thanks for the replies everyone, very informative but anyone have any ideas on the accessories thing. Attached to mesh or separate from mesh and combined into it. I hope I 'm clear enough. I really wanna make game characters but I dont know where to head with it. I'm trying to learn the real strategies of the industry and how to model a character that could be used in a next-gen game. Any links/info/anything would be great. Thanks again.

[CK]

~low poly mesh of all quads with flat UV Unwrap before export
~highest amount of detail you can establish at the lowest level which will strengthen your Normal (i.e./match your original low poly mesh to the new low poly from your sculpting program whereas the vertices have most likely been altered to a degree)
~haven't done this for games but I think games prefer tris so you then alter your mesh to tris post Normal Mapping.
I've been messing around with Normal Maps for some time now and basically I've learned: Create Low poly mesh with all quads, if you plan to sculpt in Zbrush/Mudbox then attempt to evenly space the polys edges- this helps when you subdivide because the subdivision occurs through the center- Unwrap the UVs nice and flat with NO overlaps. your original low poly mesh will most likely be altered during subdivision and sculpting so typically I reimport my new low poly mesh from scuplting program to Maya/3dMax and either use this one instead of my old one or usually assign a blend deform node to adjust my original to match the vertex placement of the new one (necessary for proper alignment and a good smooth Normal). To create a Normal map I usually use Maya but you can use Zmapper or whatever- I then use my Normal Map to create my diffuse and other maps in Photoshop by simply changing the colors and adding details etc.

[matsman]

Hi!

gnomon has a nice dvd on this workflow... dealing with a character creation process as currently being used at blur studios.. called character creation for production if I am not mistaken.

they make a base mesh take it into z brush (mudbox could also be used) and then sculpt the high poly... during the process the base mesh will be tweaked and afterwards a normal map will take over all the uber small detail... and since the base, all quad and very squarish mesh is not at all the optimal way to show all the underlying mesh detail a lot of the model gets re-topologised.. basically meaning building a new low poly over the high poly this time incorporating all the detail of folds and what not, and not worry about sculptability, but optimalisation and forms.

as far as accesories go... everything not coming lose is usually integrated... so a cape would normally be integrated with the character while a sword would not be. Of course there are a few exeptions in stuf that breaks and more easily animatable object when not connected. But mostly the rule of thumb is: if the accesory is never on its own then it is part of the character.

Bye!

[CK]

as far as accesories go... everything not coming lose is usually integrated... so a cape would normally be integrated with the character while a sword would not be. Of course there are a few exeptions in stuf that breaks and more easily animatable object when not connected. But mostly the rule of thumb is: if the accesory is never on its own then it is part of the character.

Good reply Matsman- the only time this might be different is for more technical and detailed renderings of cloth at which point I'd personally use nCloth which I'm growing more and more fond of.

[matsman]

:thumbsup: thanks Saltiva

Yeah.. cloth-sim is indeed fairly nice to do on hair or long flowing types of clothing... but I have found it still requiring to much detail for most gamestuff... however it will be used more and more since the latest engines and computers can handle more polygon detail...

...and I think it falls in the category of "more easily animatable object when not connected" just like pistons, glow effects, wheels,... and some more technical stuff.

BTW.. Riveramaze will you showing us some of the stuff you think about doing with this info?

Cheers!

[marcogalli]

Hi! For me the steps are:

- Make the low poly model using your favorite program ( modo, max, maya, etc.) apply UV map!!!

- Export the model to ZBrush or Mud and than make all the details you need

- Create the normal map

- Apply the normal map in your favorite program

Important if you use ZBrush:

- When you have finished the details you have to create a blank texture than drag the blank texture on the model ( if you use an UV tool of ZBrush you will lost the original UV).

- Redce the number of poly to 1 and than go to ZMapper tool to create normal map

If you have to create a character that change dresses (like in Oblivion) you have to create the body and every dress you need ( also dresses have to be low poly with normal map). If yo have parts that don't change you can model it from the start. With the new PC and consoles the concept of Low Poly is changed if you see Unreal Tournament 3 you can see that a gun can be up to 1500 poly with normal it look up to 6000.

bye, Marco

[Titojr]

Something I wanted to add to the original posters questions. So once the base mesh has been created, zbrushed, brought back into the 3d program of choice and normal mapped.

This is where you would then Retopologize it? This time considering all the deformation it would need to go through in animation?





Second question is. More regarding the ballistic char modeling 2. I have that book and I thought epics work flow was Create the high poly first in Max > Bring high poly into Zbrush for detail passes, then bring pieces of them back into Max.

Then I got confused. I may have to re read that. Kevins descriptions were kind of skippy.

Can anyone clear that up for me?

[matsman]

Hi!

acooording to my information epic does indeed make the highpoly first then retopologize it to get a lowpoly/realtime version. They did this to make sure the normalmap gets the most benefit from the actual geomotry... (which is kinda important since normal behaves like bump and the mesh has to bring everyting it can to simulate that normal detail in the silhouette)

and retopologizing happens before the normal map is in place... once you have finished your high poly you bring it into your modeller of choice (or in parts if the mesh is to high density) and then build a lowpoly cage around it.
Uv the lowpoly, bake a normal map, with the new low poly cage as target and apply the map and any texturing you might have done to lowpoly, then finish textuing and voila!

I think that takes care of the questions right?

Cheers!

[Titojr]

Matsman thank you for clearing that up. But I got one more question to throw out there!

For the guys who picked up the Character Modeling 2 book where they break down GoW

Does anyone know if this detail in the wretch that I highlighted were created in Zbrush?

Or was it all modeled first, all the rivets and straps all in max. modeled out then put into zbrush. Then in zbrush get the highpoly details only. Maybe create skin bulge details but overall just needing the high poly mesh.


Was it all kit bashed in Max then Put into zbrush for minor tweaking

or was it all a base mesh at some point. With no detail (He shows the wretch basemesh and armor but none of these fine details) and then drastically detailed in Zbrush?


http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/3001/wretch1ud0.jpg



If it was modeled in Max first and then imported it all into zbrush wouldnt there be problems with the nomal map inside of those shoulder creveses. Maybe under the straps? the light information from the faces inside would conflict wouldnt they? I recently modeled a really detailed character in Maya then imported it into Zbrush for minor tweaks and I couldnt get a normal map at all. It was just little details here but then a huge flood of flat grey.

that was using Zmapper.

What my instructor is telling me is that for best normal map generation you need to remember that the item being normal mapped need to all be connected to eachother. it all has to flow and be visible. I know with Skin wrinkles , that's easy because skin doesn't fold in or tortion as much as armor as complex as this wretch.

I'm wondering what i'm missing in that , if you look in the book at their 'Realtime' game model that it completely blankets this area of the shoulder and I just can't figure out how the details could shine through so well without having to model low poly ins and outs for thos details inside.

[CK]

I've been kinda making it my goal over the last few weeks or so to get some good workable normal maps and I have been switching between Maya, Mudbox, and Zbrush- I've kinda gotten away from Mud for ZB because I like the updates. I have to say that without much knowledge and only experimentation I have been able to create some nice, detailed Normals- but it usually takes several minor settings changes to get there- typically changing the search envelope within Maya or smoothing some creases, but having said that, I very recently started using Zbrush's ZMapper and was able to get a detailed Normal on the first take- I don't know if that means that I'm just getting better at modeling and sculpting, or the whole process itself, or simply luck. I did a man- low mesh was something like 5k polys (nice and low) and the high was 100k or something and believe it or not I got (IMO) I got a fairly detailed Normal out of it. The only problematic areas were the ears so I'll probably be shaping them better to suite the ears. But as you can tell below, you can get good creases, and bumps etc. Please excuse the lack of a detailed texture...
http://features.cgsociety.org/gallerycrits/271408/271408_1202171259_medium.jpg
http://features.cgsociety.org/gallerycrits/271408/271408_1202171309_medium.jpg
http://features.cgsociety.org/gallerycrits/271408/271408_1202171094_medium.jpg

[matsman]

Hi

It is possible to get some very nice details... although it gets rather "technical" (not really but very complicated with everything you need to keep in mind) when you want more fine detail and stuff that folds in on itself.
That said you can also use a combination of 2d normal generation and 3d normal generation.

I don't know about epic but I find it easier to do all that non organic stuff... robot parts, machine parts, cars.. in max. Since I have way more control and better tools to ensure that unnatural straightness is there and the same parts are used all over. But I have seen work from people who can do those kinda things in zbrush as well.... I am not that much of a sculpting master.

Bottom line is that when you are going to do sickly high detailed meshes you have to watch out for lots of things, not in the least the angles that the low poly cage can pick up on.... and I think that epic actually generated the normal maps from parts on themselves and then glued them together to get a big texture. That way you have better control on how your normal map is being generated.

Cheers!

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