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rush123
02-26-2008, 07:56 PM
I’ve started another thread to talk about fur and show some of the way you can achieve various results. I know some people are not to keen on using the tools available to day, or are not happy with thread counts and all sorts. But please lets try and keep to the topic of fur and its possibility, techniques, tips, for all to share.

Thanks

Below are two simple quick fur samples, the lower one fur thinkness is been controlled by a ‘procedural image’ I’ve also attached a screen shot which demonstrates how this was done.

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/670/quickfursx9.th.jpg (http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=quickfursx9.jpg)

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/5830/quickfur01jn7.th.jpg (http://img227.imageshack.us/my.php?image=quickfur01jn7.jpg)

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/8881/quickfurscreenkl4.th.jpg (http://img227.imageshack.us/my.php?image=quickfurscreenkl4.jpg)

rush123
02-26-2008, 09:46 PM
Bit more fur

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/492/hairshader03ba7.th.jpg (http://img406.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hairshader03ba7.jpg)

borisgoreta2000
02-26-2008, 11:58 PM
This was an attempt to make thin fur with specularity and translucency.

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/5345/42956091ye9.th.jpg (http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=42956091ye9.jpg)

borisgoreta2000
02-27-2008, 12:00 AM
And another one ...

spaz8
02-27-2008, 04:06 AM
nice examples guys... any examples of matted hair..clumpy. How would u go about making a specific hair style? in sasquatch you had to make guides..and a wig..

dobermunk
02-27-2008, 12:32 PM
hi rush... I finally dug out my tests...
might be helpful for others... I've also got messiah now running on vista - still some graphic problems but I'm on it.

FIrst off, a combing test... alternative methods of combing will compliment the morph technique, but this test shows that the technique is quite intuitive and very powerful:
http://www.stickman.de/content/temp/pmG/pmG_hairTest_04.jpg

dobermunk
02-27-2008, 12:38 PM
Shading fur is very powerful in the messiah network... you can shade hair with whatever you would shade anything else...
Here's a video (http://www.stickman.de/content/temp/pmG/pmGfur_lightTest_01.mov) of the hair hooked up with subsurface scattering. (Sorry about the low antialias setting)

And here's a classic gauging system:
http://www.stickman.de/content/temp/pmG/pmgfur_gradienttests_395.jpg
I create a grid like this as reference, then I can quickly tweak the in/out points of the fur propperty values (hot stuff) to get what I'm after...

And this is a fiber shape test:
http://www.stickman.de/content/temp/pmG/pmgfur_thicknesstests_117.jpg

Ulven
02-27-2008, 01:51 PM
Some generic tips:

-If you're using method 1 you should manually set the controls for translucency, if you're using method 2 it's kind of automagic, but method 1 allows for more control. Lighter hair generally has more translucency.

-When working with method 1, remember to apply some specularity tinting, this is also automagic in method 2, but again method 1 allows for more control.

-Experimental SS filtered is the best AA for hair in most cases. I also set the AA to Possion DR as my generic default.

-Under ram and speed managment, setting the Hair Subdivision level to 2 instead of 4 will significantly reduce the amount of ram needed without much difference in performance.

Julez4001
02-27-2008, 03:18 PM
Any curly fur examples, maybe african or dreads?

catizone
02-27-2008, 05:56 PM
David,

Thanks...the last example looks as if I might be able to get a cartoon feather look after all...
Best,
Rick

stooch
02-27-2008, 09:05 PM
This was an attempt to make thin fur with specularity and translucency.

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/5345/42956091ye9.th.jpg (http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=42956091ye9.jpg)

this looks closest to what i like about sasquach. I wish the AA was better though.

rush123
02-27-2008, 09:48 PM
David, nice to here from you and thanks for sharing.

borisgoreta2000, nice example

Ulven, thanks for information

Below is the my approach to a ‘loose curly effect’ using ‘Morphblender’
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/2811/loosecurls02rb8.th.jpg (http://img220.imageshack.us/my.php?image=loosecurls02rb8.jpg)

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/3310/loosecurls01jm9.th.jpg (http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?image=loosecurls01jm9.jpg)

Last of all, here is another example again using the ‘Morphblender’ for a grooming effect
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/5999/clumpingexample01vy4.th.jpg (http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?image=clumpingexample01vy4.jpg)

spaz8
02-28-2008, 12:41 AM
nice.. i like the last image a lot.. ordered V3 today actually.

borisgoreta2000
02-28-2008, 09:14 AM
Rush, could you please show how you used morhplender to comb fur. I know that you have to hand the cat to its nose to have downward going fibers but how did you do the combing in your example. Did you twist and deform original object and made it a morph. How does that look like ?

Thanks

Lino Grandi
02-28-2008, 06:24 PM
I'd like to know the render time of the third image! Very cool fur!

rush123
02-28-2008, 06:54 PM
spaz8, welcome aboard

borisgoreta2000, I’ll work on a min tute for you

Lino Grandi, Thanks, I’ll need to re-render to get a time.


http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/3254/clumpingexample02mh1.th.jpg (http://img132.imageshack.us/my.php?image=clumpingexample02mh1.jpg)
Applied some SSS

borisgoreta2000
02-28-2008, 07:14 PM
You simply have to share this project file,:thumbsup: this looks great !!!

Lino Grandi
02-28-2008, 08:34 PM
Lino Grandi, Thanks, Iíll need to re-render to get a time.



Don't need the exact time...more or less....2 minutes, ten minutes, half an hour....?

Bugpoo
02-28-2008, 10:56 PM
Hey David and Rush...could you post images of your comb and length maps? How are you getting the clumping? Thanks for the inspiration

Ulven
02-29-2008, 01:07 AM
Very nice stuff rush.

ctguitars
02-29-2008, 01:17 AM
Yes very nice stuff Rush123,

I asked in another message recently about speeds and hair. If I do anything with the hair in Messiah the viewport / app gets real sluggish OR locks up for a while. Any ideas on this? Are you getting the same? Is it just shear muscle with respect to machine spec? My machine is a P 2.8 HT with 2GB Ram and a Geforce 7800GS vid card.

Cheers
Aidan

Nichod
02-29-2008, 02:08 AM
Yes very nice stuff Rush123,

I asked in another message recently about speeds and hair. If I do anything with the hair in Messiah the viewport / app gets real sluggish OR locks up for a while. Any ideas on this? Are you getting the same? Is it just shear muscle with respect to machine spec? My machine is a P 2.8 HT with 2GB Ram and a Geforce 7800GS vid card.

Cheers
Aidan

I wouldn't leave the strands on while animating or doing playback.

rush123
02-29-2008, 11:56 AM
Bugpoo, I’m going to put something together will a bit of detail, just need to find some time.

Ctguitars, re speed, ensure that ‘show every’ is set to something higher than 10. as you perhaps don’t need to see all the fibers in viewport


http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9051/dynamics02qf6.th.jpg (http://img257.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dynamics02qf6.jpg)

Some quick & dirty animation dynamics test. (both are the same file)
http://uploader.polorix.net//files/1319/dynamic_fibers.mov
4.9mb

http://uploader.polorix.net//files/1319/dynamic_fibers_samll.mov
133kb
The block is parented to the null bending the fibers.

rush123
02-29-2008, 07:51 PM
One of the benefits of using ‘nulls’ for combing is that the null can be attached to a ‘box controller’ and can be used while animating. This small video demonstrates this technique.

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/4444/fibercontrolpb6.th.jpg (http://img167.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fibercontrolpb6.jpg)

http://uploader.polorix.net//files/1319/Fiber%20box%20controller.mov

Ulven
03-01-2008, 03:05 PM
I added an article and started writing up what I know about the hair module, please help fill it in where you can.

http://messiah3d.scribblewiki.com/Hair_Module

catizone
03-01-2008, 03:31 PM
Thanks, Ulven.

Your description on the "Comb Dir Obj Group"....does that mean we can use nulls to scale, etc. along the various regions for shaping purposes? That's how I took it.

Best,
Rick

Ulven
03-01-2008, 03:40 PM
The scale of the null or object you use to comb the hair affects the strength with which it affects the hair. So a null with a small scale value will comb the hair less strongly than a null with a large scale value.

rush123
03-01-2008, 03:42 PM
This was kind of lost before:

The combing methods available in this release so far are:

Nulls
Nulls are a blend between what NULL is closer to the base of the hair on the surface. The closer a hair base point is to a NULL, the stronger that NULL directional influence is on the hair. Z scale of NULL scales it's strength.

Meta effectors
Meta effector, work with the Meta effectors normal mode of influence is. A base point of the hair is passed to the effector and if it's within it bounds or range then it returns a strength value back to the hair, between 0.0 and 1.0 for whatever parameter it's controlling.

Note: ensure that ‘Lay’ option has a value

Morph Blender
The third method and more applicable to your requirements are via ‘MorphBlender’ where an example was given in ‘CatFur.fxs’, when the cat was ‘hung noise up’ and fur fibers applied.

R

kursad_pileksuz
03-01-2008, 04:27 PM
Rush, I think that some people asked for render times and they have not gotten their answers regarding your tests unless you sent private message to those. Would you mind putting some render numbers please?

Suricate
03-01-2008, 04:42 PM
Thanks to everyone for sharing the information about the fur !

Just one question to rush and Ulven: When mentioning the meta effectors, do you mean that they can also be used in the 'Comb Dir Obj Group' or only in the 'Lay' weight popup ? I was trying to find the difference between using nulls and meta effectors in the 'Comb Dir Obj Group', but couldn't find any ...

rush123
03-01-2008, 04:43 PM
Completely slipped my mind, thanks kursad.

I’m using Messiah 3 32bit, on a 2Gb, 2 core (3.20GHz) old machine. render time was 15.17 with AA of 4

R

edit: wrong time, should have been 4:16 see message below

R

catizone
03-01-2008, 05:08 PM
Thanks Ulven and Rush...I really have to get some time to dive into this and experiment.
Seems rather exciting.

Best,
Rick

rush123
03-02-2008, 01:33 AM
looks like my timing was slightly off, its 4:16 (4mins, 16 seconds)

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/9224/timesxe7.th.jpg (http://img517.imageshack.us/my.php?image=timesxe7.jpg)

R

rush123
03-02-2008, 12:55 PM
Here is an off-white fur attempt using sss:
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/2207/offwhite02yv7.th.jpg (http://img209.imageshack.us/my.php?image=offwhite02yv7.jpg)

spaz8
03-02-2008, 01:28 PM
Cool, now just give it some back lighting :) ... BTW .. r u working on an explaination of how u got the clumping of the hair? I know myself and a few others are interested.. my guess woud be u twisted the cyclinder in the morph like a candy cane.. anyways I'd love to know.

rush123
03-02-2008, 02:22 PM
spaz8, "my guess woud be u twisted the cyclinder in the morph like a candy cane" yeah kind of, but I'll show you the mesh before & after.

Meanwhile, backlite
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/1531/offwhite03gp7.th.jpg (http://img135.imageshack.us/my.php?image=offwhite03gp7.jpg)

rush123
03-02-2008, 07:14 PM
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/1806/clump01cc9.th.jpg (http://img171.imageshack.us/my.php?image=clump01cc9.jpg)
Ok, as promised my short, very short method that was used to achieved a ‘clumping like effect’ with fur.

Using a flat plane, to which I’ve added ‘fibers’ to the surface. Next I added ‘Morph Blender’ and selected ‘cluster create’ to select a ‘cube’ as the target, select ‘convert to cluster ‘ & ‘New Slider’. In ‘Cluster value’, select ‘value_1’ object and set value to 1.0. Next back in the ‘Amimate’ tab, select ‘cluster Slider’ and set the value in my example it was 0.042.

In the video I added some other control items, like a ‘Clump Strength’ slider, which uses a procedural weight to better control the effect. Also a weight can be used to control position/placement of effect. Added to that is the ‘combing null’ as shown before. But you should get the basic idea

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/3346/clump02us5.th.jpg (http://img165.imageshack.us/my.php?image=clump02us5.jpg)

http://uploader.polorix.net//files/1319/clump_101.mov
large

http://uploader.polorix.net//files/1319/clump_101_small.mov
small

There is another method but that will have to wait for another day

R

My Fault
03-02-2008, 07:28 PM
Thanks for sharing all your experimentation with us Rush, huge help!

operaguy
03-06-2008, 01:57 AM
Hopefully this is not too OT or simplistic, but....

What is the capbility of exporting a animation of a figure with hair and dynamics applied thru MDD or FBX or some other method of baking, which could then be rendered in another app such as MODO with the hair then fully animated and shaded?

::::: Opera :::::

Bugpoo
03-06-2008, 04:53 AM
Rush thanks so much for the inspiration and information!

David Maas, you know I didn't forget your contribution too!

Ulven, great job on the Wiki :-)

Guess it's about time I pull the trigger on my upgrade

Tartiflette
03-06-2008, 09:17 AM
Hopefully this is not too OT or simplistic, but....

What is the capbility of exporting a animation of a figure with hair and dynamics applied thru MDD or FBX or some other method of baking, which could then be rendered in another app such as MODO with the hair then fully animated and shaded?

::::: Opera :::::
I guess Hair are not actual geometry so no way to export them, and modo doesn't do fur nor hair so i think there isn't any way to do what you want.


Cheers,
Laurent aka Tartiflette :)

rush123
03-06-2008, 05:48 PM
Cheers for all the thanks, but I want to pay tribute to PmG, Fori & the gang for an excellent implementation.

Currently export of hair/fur & particles is not possible in Messiah, owing to the tight integration on Messiah shading system (I guess).


Here’s another sample
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/373/furtwist01ab1.th.jpg (http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=furtwist01ab1.jpg)

R

rush123
03-13-2008, 11:02 PM
Less about fur more about wire, created with the hair/fur module.

http://www.eggington.net/~messiah3d/wire_play_01

R

NicolasJordan
03-13-2008, 11:07 PM
Very cool! This example looks like it shows off what this hair functionality is really capable of.

palpal
03-14-2008, 12:36 AM
...rush123... that is a splendid show of the module... because I have not seen fur that I like here....

yours PAL :bounce:

operaguy
03-14-2008, 01:09 AM
rush123



I agree that render shows a lot of power. You are displaying shader control down to the strand level.



How much trouble was it to get the "hairs" (wires) to not poke through each other? Is there physics/collision active for that or did you have to 'pose' individual strands.

::::: Opera :::::

Ulven
03-14-2008, 01:57 AM
That's pretty whacky rush, and very cool... how on earth did you do that?

rush123
03-16-2008, 07:06 PM
Thanks to all

The ‘wire’ was textured using the ‘ST’ with a texture, time was spent ensuring the ‘wire’ didn’t intersect, but a few do if you look closely.

Below is a few straw bails that I’m working on again using the fur/hair module.

http://uploader.polorix.net//files/1319/strawbail_02_thumb.jpg
(http://uploader.polorix.net//files/1319/strawbail_02.JPG)

operaguy
03-16-2008, 07:42 PM
>> time was spent ensuring the Ďwireí didnít intersect <<

.... which seems to confirm Messiah hair does not have the function for the strands to collide with each other.

Hopefully full collision, as well as simulation, will arrive in due time.

::::: Opera :::::

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