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View Full Version : AoN:Studio and TLHPro in messiah studio 3


ThomasHelzle
02-26-2008, 02:55 PM
Hi everybody! :-)

With the first downloadable version of messiah studio 3, there is/was a bug that crashes messiah as soon as you try to create a new AoN:Studio or TLHPro node. This is caused by a crash in the Hasp Dongle driver and Fori already has found a workaround for that and created a fixed mmanager.dll - I'm sure he will update the download page soon so everybody can work with the shaders again. If you are desparate, please mail me directly and I will send you the fix.

My next step will be, to check all the shaders to see if anything else is broken, AoN:Studio should be fine, since it doesn't depend on messiahs internal functions much, but TLHPro may have some quirks.

After that, I will try to compile the shaders for 64 bit. I don't have a working 64 bit IDE/compiler yet (but a new 8 core mac with Vista 64 for about 2 weeks - yeeeeppeeee :bounce: so I can at least test it :-) ) and never done any 64 bit stuff before... But that shouldn't be very hard I guess. Maybe just a recompile.

If any updates should be necessary, these will be free to existing users as will be the 64 bit versions if I get them to work ;-)

I can't promise how long this will take, since I'm currently moving to a new appartment and often have some short term work to do which has priority, but I hope it will not take too long either.

So if anybody finds any problems with the shaders, please let me know on this thread or with a direct email please.

Thank you very much! :bowdown:

Thomas

lanosrep1
02-26-2008, 05:28 PM
With commitment like that Thomas.. you just made yourself a sale..

Thank you for continuing to support your plugin for Messiah.. I know you have somewhat moved on.. it means alot that you are taking the time to keep your customers happy.. means quite alot.. to me at least.

Hopefully, changes to the SDK in the near future will convince you to take another look at what is possible in Messiah.. We could use someone with your talents around here.. for now thanks again!

G.

ThomasHelzle
02-26-2008, 06:01 PM
Thank you Gary :-)

It was actually very healthy for me to stay away from messiah for a while.
I was way too involved emotionally and had a hard time lettin' go :-)
So I got a good punch on the nose in this forum some time ago and finally realized what I was doing.
Idiotic really.
Well, we live to learn ;-)

But I always loved how friendly this community received my work.
That made it a fun experience. :bowdown:
And I owe it to those who bought the shaders and supported me with encouragement and very positive feedback while I was developing them, that I at least try to keep them usable with newer versions of messiah, although I may no longer write new stuff.

You see, since I do a lot of product visualization and design lately, messiah just doesn't fit my needs anymore, most of the time I need a close modeler/render integration like in XSI (which is my main tool for some years now) or NURBS etc.
That can't be helped and it makes no sense to bend backwards just to use a tool that is meant for animators mainly - which I'm not.

So it isn't so much about the SDK as about - as you said - having moved on.

Thanks again for your kind words! :bowdown:

Cheers,

Thomas

Suricate
02-26-2008, 06:57 PM
Thomas, thanks a lot for your continuing support! :applause:
Looking forward to the updates....

ThomasHelzle
02-26-2008, 07:13 PM
It seems that there are new downloads on the link that I got when I bought the update for messiah - the 32bit and 64bit packages are no longer dated from the 21. but from the 25. - so I guess these are the new versions with the .dll fixed?

Cheers!

Thomas

rush123
02-26-2008, 08:07 PM
Thomas,

Many thanks again for you continued support, and positively support the community.

R

Gene Williams
02-26-2008, 08:54 PM
Thanks Thomas,

Seems to be working now, really appreciate the tremendous support.

Gene

ThomasHelzle
02-26-2008, 09:00 PM
You guys are very welcome :-)

I currently go through the plugins and it seems that most stuff works just fine. :bounce:

TLHPro:EasyGlass is no longer needed as much, Fresnel seems to finally work!
Maybe it is still helpful for water-in-glass scenes where you need two different IORs? What about Absorption and TIR? Only Fori can answer that I guess...
The new glass example scene seems to indicate some good changes :thumbsup: :bounce:

So please let me know if you encounter any problems or crashes.

Otherwise I will try to dig up a solution for 64 bit...

Cheers,

Thomas

ThomasHelzle
02-27-2008, 08:09 PM
Hi,

as I half expected, a new and very short term job came up, just when I started packing to move to the new appartment...
So my "64 bit exploration" has to wait.

Please don't hold your breath, I don't know when I can come back to it, but maybe I should just buy the Standard Edition of VC and be done with it...

I hope nobody is seriously hurt by this - otherwise please let me know...

Sorry, have to run,

Cheers,

Thomas

kursad_pileksuz
02-27-2008, 09:13 PM
Do they work under 32bit version(under 64bit xp) ?

ThomasHelzle
02-27-2008, 10:42 PM
Just tried it on Vista 64 with the latest messiah 3 32bit download: Works :thumbsup: :bounce:

Cheers,

Thomas

kursad_pileksuz
02-27-2008, 11:33 PM
But what happens if user wants to render with 64bit version of messiah? I do not own your plugins but I would be curious to hear compability issues.

ThomasHelzle
02-27-2008, 11:42 PM
Then it doesn't work since there are no 64 Bit versions of the plugins. :shrug:

Cheers,

Thomas

Wireframes
02-28-2008, 04:07 PM
Hey Thomas,

x64 version --> Please do it :bounce:

Phil

ThomasHelzle
02-28-2008, 04:13 PM
I want to, but I'm overwhelmed with other work right now.

No worries though, it should come at one point :-)

Cheers,

Thomas

kursad_pileksuz
02-29-2008, 07:30 AM
I might be interested in when Tlh is ready for 64bit. Please inform us when it is ready :drool:

ThomasHelzle
03-02-2008, 06:12 PM
:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

I got 64 bit working in the end and the solution is so easy I could cry, especially since the web seems to be full of crap that doesn't work.

The solution I found is to start the console window that comes with the 2008 SDK, set it to the wanted output compilation mode "X64" and then start Visual Studio from there with the command line option /envvars, so it uses the environment set by the commanline batchfile instead of using its own defaults.

AoN:Studio works already in 64 Bit messiah 3, but so far I was unable to find a solution for the Helpfile-Button. It seems that there is still no 64Bit HTMLhelp workshop?
If I don't find a solution to that, I think I will just remove the buttons - no use in banging my head against Microsofts idiocy with their help system(s)...
The one in Vista can only show "Signed" helpfiles... oh well...

For now my main goal would be, to just give people the ability to USE the 64 bit version, even if it is less comfortable.
With that done, I can move to my new appartment without worrying about unfinished business too much ;-)

I will post links to the newly compiled versions in this thread as soon as I can get them done. The old license files will work with them, you just have to copy them over.

me happy :-)

Cheers,

Thomas

Wireframes
03-02-2008, 07:08 PM
Wow,

Thomas you are a Master !!! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

You can remove the help button without any pb.

have a good move :)

Phil

ThomasHelzle
03-02-2008, 09:28 PM
Cool, HTMLhelp works on 64 Bit too - you don't need it to be 64 bit, so the buttons stay in.
The HTMLhelp seems to have a problem with the embeded quicktime movies though.
Maybe it is 64 bit and can't load the 32 bit plugin? :shrug:

Bear with me, these are my absolutely first steps in the 64 bit world and I have Vista 64 for only about 2 weeks now ... :-)

You will need to install the latest download version of messiah studio 3 from the pmG website to get rid of the dongle-number-reading-crash-issue - it exists for 32 bit as well as 64 bit.

Please give this very first version a try, be aware that it may be buggy though:
AoN:Studio 64 (http://www.screendream.de/AoN/TheArtOfNoise_64.zip)

Put the extracted file into your messiah64/plugins folder together with a copy of your AoN.lic file.

It is compiled with Visual Studio 2008, so maybe you need the Redistributable Package from Microsoft for your platform:

For 64 Bit: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=BD2A6171-E2D6-4230-B809-9A8D7548C1B6&displaylang=en

(For 32 Bit: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=9B2DA534-3E03-4391-8A4D-074B9F2BC1BF&displaylang=en - just in case ;-) )

If this doesn't work, please let me know and I will hunt for more information.

Best regards,

Thomas

Wireframes
03-02-2008, 09:36 PM
Too fast my friend ;)

Well its late --> I will test it tomorrow

Thanks a lot :thumbsup:

Phil

ThomasHelzle
03-02-2008, 11:21 PM
TLHPro also works! :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

But when testing it, the new glass rendering in messiah studio 3 looks more and more suspicious to me. Without EasyGlass but Fresnel turned on, it looks not too bad, but not really correct either...
With transparency tinting, I get no logical results.

I have to give some of my old test scenes a try. So far it feels somehow wrong - don't know how to point at it though.

And with TLHPro it no longer looks any better :-(

What are your impressions?
Anyone tried that area yet?

Cheers,

Thomas

Wireframes
03-03-2008, 07:16 PM
Hi Thomas

It seems the AON works very well with messiah 3 Pro x64

Thanks a lot :thumbsup:

Phil
waiting for TLHPro :bounce:

Edit : Help button works very well also here :thumbsup:

ThomasHelzle
03-03-2008, 10:03 PM
The pretty good:
Download the 64 Bit version of TLHPro here - let me know if it works for you:
TLHPro_1.2_64 (http://www.screendream.de/TLHPro/TLHPro_12_64.zip)

If you should have lost the docs, here is that link as well:
TLHPro 1.0 Documentation (PDF) (http://www.screendream.de/TLHPro/TLHPro_Documentation.rar)

Should you need the 1.1 preliminary helpfile as well, go here:
TLHPro 1.1 Documentation Addendum (Textfile) (http://www.screendream.de/TLHPro/Beta_Documentation.txt)

See the post above about AoN:Studio for the Microsoft runtime installer links.
You will need those if your system doesn't have them already.


The medium bad:
I found messiah studio 3 64 to be a bit wonky on my Mac Pro 8 Core with Vista 64 Business and a Nvidia 8800GT with Bootcamp drivers.
I will have to try some other graphics drivers, but every now and then it seems to go in some kind of slow motion freeze mode where it hardly can be used anymore.
And messiah looses connection to the dongle quite often... or the dongle to itself... or the driver to the dongle :shrug:

On XP 32 Pro on the same machine, messiah studio 3 works as fine as ever.

The ugly:
EasyGlass seems to have reached it's life cycle. It was intended as a fix for the old, broken glass-rendering in messiah 2.x, now in studio 3 this is fixed...
Well, sort of.
To me it looks wrong.
But WITH EasyGlass it looks VERY wrong in some regards (check out some old sample scenes).

Most other shaders seem to work fine.

So, I would highly recommend to no longer use EasyGlass in messiah studio 3 and to neither buy AoN:Studio nor TLHPro anymore. I don't think I will do any more work on the plugins other than keep them usable for existing users as long as that doesn't require too much work.

As soon as time allows, I will remove AoN:Studio from my website and close my webshop.

But first I have to move piles of stuff in cardboard boxes to my/our new apartment, grind and paint and otherwise beautify it and most of all: get my internet connection moved as well - one of the biggest challenges to man ;)

I wish you guys and gals all the best! :bowdown:

Cheers,

Thomas

rago
03-05-2008, 06:29 PM
I'm sorry to hear that you're going to close "buisness" I still use your shaders, and in particular the ambient occlusion, even with messiah 3:

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/3263/prova02wj8.jpg
p.s. the light object is a photo!

Tartiflette
03-05-2008, 10:21 PM
Wow Rago, that's a really nice image ! :love:
Any idea of the render time for a picture like this ?
And Thomas i'm sad too that ou decide to close your business with AoN and TLH. :sad:
Do you think AoN are not useful anymore or is it probably something else ?


Cheers,
Laurent aka Tartiflette :)

ThomasHelzle
03-06-2008, 08:09 AM
Hi,

very nice Rago! Good to hear the shaders prove useful!

Tartiflette:
The reasons are manifold:
- AoN was written years ago when there was only "Multinoise" available in messiah as a procedural, which was pretty primitive. Now with Noisette and the other shaders from Taron, AoN is still useful, but no longer needed as much. ...and the people who really needed it have it already I guess.

- TLHPro will be pointless one day hopefully, EasyGlass is already outdated. Again, those who really wanted it, have it already.

- The current dollar c(o)urse makes it all a bit upside down for many people. With 1.52$ for 1 Euro the relation to the underpriced messiah update is hard to understand.

- But the main point is: I have grown out of messiah a long time ago, even if I needed quite a while to realize it. If I would be an animator (what I would have loved to be but I'm not) the situation may have been different, but I am a render freak.
I work with XSI/MentalRay (www.softimage.com) and lately I started to use Fryrender (www.fryrender.com). Those tools fit my work(flow) very nicely.
And since I'm no longer up to date with what's going on with messiah, I'm the wrong guy to create, maintain or sell shaders for it today.
People like Ulven who use messiah every day are way more useful for the community as a ranty old fart as me ;)

It's just the flow of things, some things you grow out of, some things you grow into and some things you grow along with :)

All the best regards, :bowdown:

Thomas

rago
03-06-2008, 01:34 PM
Wow Rago, that's a really nice image !
Any idea of the render time for a picture like this ?

Thanx, well the image at 2400x1920 took about, I'm not sure though, 15 min. on a dualcore 2,3 Ghz duo with 2048Ram, Vista basic 32bit.

MonteCarlo GI samples 9 (Hybrid still chrashes on me)
GI photons 5000000
GI gather radius 1
GI gather count 2500
Anti Alias 3


Then you would have to add the occlusion pass with Thomas' shader which took about 3 min, and that I multiplied to the first image in Photoshop.
Everything is 3D, including the wall and light effect on it, exept for the lamp itself which is a photo I took.

Tartiflette
03-06-2008, 04:39 PM
Thanks for the detailed reply Rago ! :)
At this resolution and with this quality i'd say it's quite fast, and the render is beautiful yet simple, well done. :thumbsup:
Thomas i understand perfectly your concern. (as much as i can because i'm a render freak too but don't want to give up on animation side as i'm an animation addict too:love:)
Anyway it's good to know your tools are still there for a small amount of time, i might be able to buy them if i ever go the messiah route. ;)

Oh, and by the way i hope you're enjoying XSI and FryRender, which seems to be a great render engine. :bounce:


Cheers,
Laurent aka Tartiflette :)

ThomasHelzle
03-06-2008, 09:09 PM
Fryrender is a wonderful tool.
I haven't had the time to really dig into its full depth, but my first tests were really fun.
http://www.urbanflow.org (not much to see yet, just one calm image done with Fry)
http://www.screendream.de/torriander_e.htm (just a test, but pretty cool)

It made me realize how fed up I have grown over the years with all that fake stuff of "normal" renderers.
The whole raytracing world was intended for very slow machines originally.
But there is no diffuse, reflection, highlight, ambient in the real world.
And in Fryrender, you HAVE just a surface color/texture and a roughness value. Either light is reflected directly or it is diffused by a rough surface, but everything is reflection in the end (or refraction, but transparency is also very straight forward).
You work with a camera with f-stop, a film-iso-value and a shutter speed - and it reacts almost exactly like a real camera - you can even simulate the Fraunhofer lines that real optics create...
Lights are objects with a size so highlights are reflections as well...

Everything looks so unbelievable natural by default...

I would really recommend it to everybody who does visualization etc.

The company are two guys from spain (AFAIK) who are really really passionate about rendering, quality and ease of use. And they and the internal betatesters are super helpful on the forum.
Integration in XSI is brilliant, as it is in Lightwave and (I guess) the other supported tools.

The demoversion is fully working up to 800x600, images are watermarked, but if you buy it, you can re-open the special image format that stores all the render information and the watermark will vanish.
And you can continue rendering...

In Beta 1.9.1, the networkrendering is broken, but you can render on 9 machines manually and merge the images by hand to get rid of noise pretty fast...

While it still is a beta, it already is very mature.

Ok, sorry for the Off Topic, but tools like Fry make me happy :)

Cheers and best regards,

Thomas

Tartiflette
03-07-2008, 10:28 AM
Ok, sorry for the Off Topic, but tools like Fry make me happy :)
A happy man in 3D is not so easy to find, so it's always good to see one from time to time ! :bounce:
And your "review" of Fryrender is interesting because it makes me want to have a look at it. ;)


Cheers,
Laurent aka Tartiflette :)

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