Forest Towers

[GlennEBrooks]

I received a critique saying the red dragon was distracting. Thanks for that. I have tried to play it down. I also tried to play down the spiraling on the far tower. Any comment welcome.
http://features-temp.cgsociety.org/gallerycrits/315236/315236_1204137990_medium.jpg

[CLONEOPS]

Actually i meant get rid of it.-
kill it ,stab it,run it over with a tractor,burn it..make it disappear
Failing that..make it into a statue on the ground somewhere- if you really must have it.(but not green):)
Still good enought to enter methinks it's 3d in 2d- same thing.

[CybrGfx]

Time to cut back on the caffeine, Cloneops...You're getting a bit too extreme in your displeasure over a dragon, y'know?
The dragon actually helps this piece in it's green version, in that it gives the eye something to peer a bit more closely at.

Glenn, while a part of me is jumping up and down in the background, cheering you on for submitting a 2d entry, the practical, sharp-eyed critic in me is trying to gently find a way to tell you that you are out of your league, technically. Your skill level is not high enough to hold your own against 3D apps (BUT, your imagination and attention to detail can MORE than hold their own with 3D renderings!) in the areas of Perspective, Proportions, and Lighting.

Lighting is your biggest issue, but Perspective and Proportion are neck and neck even with it.
Your lighting of this scene is all over the place, poorly rendered, and inconsistent. From the blue moonlight illuminating the bottom side of the branches in the background, to the overly bright light reflections on the flying vehicle (where are THEY coming from???), to the overall too bright lighting of the central area, which looks like it is daytime, you have issues to resolve. The thumbnail is marked in yellow to show just some of the lighting discrepancies that jump out to my eye. The red lines mark some of the weird perspective angles, and the blue lines show visual "intersections" creating strong horizontal planes which, combined with the tree trunks, make this very blocky looking.

The perspective, like the lighting, is crucial to works such as this, and your technical skills still need a LOT of work.
Did you draw out a horizon and perspective lines for this work, or is it totally imaginary? I'm being rhetorical, here. I know the answer by looking at it, but I want you to think about the question...
3d apps are great for this type of work, as your picture plane and camera angles can be more consistently applied with the various visual elements of a work. Short of that, one draws out a Perspective Plane, with a horizon line, and radiating spokes, to help you correctly place and angle your visual elements.

This piece shows none of that. Everything is at a different angle as the image is viewed. From the large tree on the left, with its extreme upward slope, to the wonky tilts of walkways, windows, and organic arches, this is almost vertigo inspiring in its fun house twisting and warping. Definitely not good. Especially if you are attempting to go up against those self-same 3d apps that can accurately display perspective...

Then we get to general Composition and Design...
I'm sorry, but for all the time and hard effort you've put into this piece, it is a pretty bad composition, overall. If you look at the paintover, the blue lines are where you have visual elements aligned. from one side of your canvas to the other. Platforms, wing edges, archway tops and window openings. For all the organic curves you have tried to introduce to this piece, you have such a static and blocky composition, that there is no real "flow" to observing it. Everything is aligned, although the perspective is skewed...You have no real focal point to this piece clearly delineated or emphasized. If the red dragon was your main focal point, it was too small and too far back on the picture plane to be very dominant, except for the color, which was SO dominant, it made people want to do bad things to your dragon...

It's a nice piece. Not a great piece, but a nice piece. You really did put a lot of time and effort into some wonderful little details. Unfortunately, the flaws of the work drown out those sweet notes of detail with a cacaphonous assault of horizontal and vertical lines, both obvious and subliminal.

Nope, I don't think you should submit this to "be the odd ball," unless your rendering skills can stand up against the mechanical boys (3d), and show them that, for any technical superiority 3D can give them, your compositional skills can take up the slack. At present, you're out gunned and out maneuvered, which doesn't make you the oddball, as much as stack the odds against you.

~Cyber

[CLONEOPS]

Hey i just hate dragons in general.:) and red ones! man don't get me started..and just seems out of context,distracting ,slightly comic for the purposes of the contest subject.
Sure it's not a technical marvel...but as an idea it's valid.
One thing that this image does not make me do is cringe.
1 vote -kill dragon.
1 vote- let it live.
kill kill.........:)

[BetterthanBunnies]

Hmmm....kill the dragon...let it live...kill the dragon...let it live...ummmmm...I'm gonna say, let it live. But only if it's going to start eating people. It's not a good picture unless kids get eaten. :)

Perspective & lighting are throwing me off a bit. The camera is looking down at the ground, I would like to see the tree trunks get bigger/bend outward a bit as they go up...if that makes any sense. I'd also like to see the shadows cast from the light sources, 'specially the moon. I think CybrGfx makes some good points about what to fix.

I'm enjoying the attention paid to details, especially on the left side of the picture, where the people are standing on the glass balcony and you can see their reflections. The mom holding the little boys' hand feels very real to me. It's little details like that that can really add character.

Composition, perspective and things are all pretty big fixes, but take heart. Every drawing and painting gets a person better, it's just that constant drive for perfection, y'know? But that's what makes art fun, anyways.

[CybrGfx]

Okay, so we now have

Kill Dragon ~ 1 vote
Let Dragon Live ~ 1 vote
Let Dragon Live if eats people, preferably children ~ 1 vote

At this point, we need to determine the dragon's role in this scene. Is the dragon supposed to be the main Focal Point? If so, that pretty much assures his presence, even if he ends up stuffed as a statue with an apple in his mouth...

The lack of an easily definable main Focal Point is also a problem with this piece, but I am wordy enough as it is, so quit the last mini-novel at a decent length. I would like to know the backstory of what we are seeing, and what the important visuals should be, here...

There IS room on that platform to put a sacrifical altar, some bones, and possibly bits of young'uns around the dragon...;)

PS: I, too, am not fond of dragons, I feel the concept has been done to death and beyond. That and Elves with pointy ears and tiny noses...blarg. But I'm not against those who are into them. Good rendering is good rendering regardless how I feel about the subject matter...

~Cyber

[CLONEOPS]

Holy crap there's a moon back there..talk about a focal point,man if someone flashes a moon at me i pay attention.Hey maybe they be going to a barbecue and guess what's on the menu?!.. there would not be a lot of scene changes just a lot of flames under it's ass.
Okay changed my mind guess it's okay to keep the dragon as long as it's a horse.
The tally

Kill Dragon ~ 1 vote.-somehow erase it from existance.
Let Dragon Live ~ 1 vote -whatever.
Let Dragon Live if eats people, preferably children ~ 1 vote...*scene of mass slaughter*
Lip smackin dragon barbecue.~1/2 vote...good old family fun.
Keep the dragon as long as it's a horsey.~1/2 vote..possible.
The only other option i can think of is to add some naked chicks to distract from all that
technical crap flotsam stuff.:)

[CybrGfx]

Well, Glenn, I think you now should get the idea that while this is an interesting concept, it is not really strong enough in more than a few areas to be submitting it in against 3d entries.

Please DO understand, though, that a 2D work need not be "precision" rendered in a "real enough to be touched" manner. As an artist, you can impart stylization and personality to your works that 3D cannot ever truly achieve, although the really talented people in that medium can come darn close. At this stage, your rendering skills still need to develop to achieve that level of engaging rendering. You have the imagination, you have MORE than clearly displayed that you have the drive and perserverence to start and complete a large and complex work, and you've shown enough good sense to ask for honest feedback regarding your skills.

Please excuse the jocularity we've had with this thread. Certain individuals, who we won't name, but whose initials are c.l.o.n.e.o.p.s, did take us a bit off topic with this nice little scene descending into dark mahem and chaos with carnivorous horses passing flaming gas from their rears, as someone is dropping trousers and mooning the viewer, while various bodyparts of small children/midgets fly about in the air and naked women wander around. I think this may involve a bit more revision that you were seeking for this piece, but should you decide to still submit your entry for the competition, red or green horsie/dragon, crooked walkways and all, you will have a better idea of why it may not place well.

There again, who knows? Your work may display that something extra, which the judges will vote for. We all wish you the best of success with this piece, regardless of whether it is an entry or not.

If nothing else, it was a fun piece for you to create. Don't let the critique take ANYTHING away from you for that. I know you spent quite a few hours painting everything. That is why the use of a perspective grid would have helped you so much...

Thank you for sharing it with us, asking our opinions, and hopefully being able to get a chuckle out of our observations.

~Cyber

[BetterthanBunnies]

Certain individuals, who we won't name, but whose initials are c.l.o.n.e.o.p.s, did take us a bit off topic


And me. *Hangs head in shame* I apologize. I actually do think the dragon is needed, because it seems part of the story--it looks like a guy has caught a dragon and is planning on selling it to these people...it must be a novelty, because everyone is crowded around to look at it. Am I close on this?

Since I'm new here I don't know much about the competitions, but I don't see why it shouldn't be entered. It's a cool piece, and people can see there's been a lot of time and effort spent on it. And when you begin your next piece, it'll be even better. So good luck-o buck-o.


That and Elves with pointy ears and tiny noses...blarg.

...And women in armor bikinis. What's the point of wearing armor if it doesn't cover your vital organs? I ask you...

[CybrGfx]

Since I'm new here I don't know much about the competitions, but I don't see why it shouldn't be entered. It's a cool piece, and people can see there's been a lot of time and effort spent on it. I agree. From the competition page:
What we want.

Awe inspiring fusions of architecture and landscape - that simple. The emphasis is on imagination and artistic expression.

What we don't want.

Technical marvels that are cold and devoid of artistic merit and beauty. That pretty much says it all.

It also pretty much negates the need for the dragon/horsie/BBQ/body parts. None of them relate to architecture or landscape. The focus should be on those two elements...This also changes the composition somewhat, as the architecture of this piece is not a dominant element. With the exception of the extremely tilted glass patio tree, everything else is in the background.

With that, and some of my previous comments (the useful ones) in mind, here is a quick and dirty Photoshop paintover:
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/1092/artspace2pd8.jpg
I've changed some of the heights, eliminated the big bland tree, and emphasized the architecture a bit more. I also increased the contrast, and darkened the overall scene to make it look more like nighttime.

Hopefully this will give you some ideas.
(Personal observation: There is no one sitting, inside or out. What an uncomfortable place! Give me at least a lounge chair or something to kick back and enjoy my neighborhood, since the BBQ was cancelled and the horsie ran away...http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/sad.gif )

~Cyber
...And women in armor bikinis. What's the point of wearing armor if it doesn't cover your vital organs? I ask you...About the same as the stupid WarHammer costumes, with the armor so big, and the heads so tiny, there is no logical physics behind it...;)

[CLONEOPS]

I like the overall lushness of the scene.-value.
The lansdcape is the architecture.-value+++
Would really like to see that moon enlarged.2x 3x maybe
I stand by my horsie..and some naked chicks.:)

The paintover was a nice touch i must say.
...okay i gotta go mayhem some more threads...

[ThreeDSnack]

haha poor kid. u all completely raped his piece! I for one liked the dragon

[CybrGfx]

haha poor kid. u all completely raped his piece! I for one liked the dragonHey, hey, HEY! This was purely consentual, in the interest of improving the artwork.

The dragon's likability is not in question, so much as his appropriateness to the situation at hand. That dragon was a victim. It was not dominant enough, nor relevant to the scene. Just like the horsie that ran away with the naked chicks, who are off in the woods drinking beer and hunting for small children to Bar-be-que, while Cloneops stands by the horsie and moons everyone (those Canadian sacks of H2o, what can you do?), the dragon's absence does not adversely affect the scene, here. The architecture, and the landscape are the main focal points.

The Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Dragons, the SPCD, removed the dragon for safety reasons, determining that the cannibalistic, horseback riding, hoard of vagrant naked chicks posed a significant hazard to the well-being of the dragon, as all the other individuals in the scene did nothing but stand around, watching.
The dragon has been placed in protective custody, and will be thoroughly examined and evaluated before being released back into the wild, to appear on countless other paintings in the future, although its color and features may change in order to protect its identity. This will be accomplished through the Dragon Protection Program, which will help set the dragon up in a new forest, where no one will know its prior debauched and abused history. Any similarity to other dragons in art, abused by horses or not, red or green, is purely coincidental and unintentional.

Aside from basic perspective issues, the architecture was not dominant enough in this scene for the eye to
1. Smoothly flow over and around the work,
2. Readily identify the scene as being nighttime, with consistent and proper illustration and light sources.
The paintover was intended to merely show how a bit of adjustment would better bring the architecture to the forefront of the image, enabling the viewer to better appreciate it for its originality and creativity.

GlennEBrooks hopefully has a sense of humor about this situation, and also hopefully appreciates a discussion along these lines more than either blanket ass-pats of "it's wonderful," or unhelpful remarks like, "it has teh suxxorz," neither of which do much to help improve one's compositional skills...

~Cyber

[CLONEOPS]

Oi! That's "a mostly salty sack of water" i have u know.

I agree though we have been a little free with the flinging about and whatnot.
Just so GlennEBrooks knows it really was well intentioned,and not in anyway meant to discourage.I think a little lighter hand in criticism bent towards a more piecemeal approach goes a long way if approached properly,-not everyone's level is the same and not something we can judge by looking at an avatar.-On the other hand i kinda wish there was some kind of hardline crit rating bar some people could post on threads so as to the level of crit they were looking for.

1. marshmallow.think smurfs
2. jello.
2. cheese.
3. whipped octopus milkshake-harder that cheese,more solid than Dreamwhip but still has some give to it.
5 .Baked brownies- like you sister makes.things start to get crunchy.
6. Almost cured concrete-solid but you can still write your name in it.
7.Rocky's meat locker.-something's gonna hurt..slightly bloody
8...Pat Benatar level-(lyrics)-"You come on with a come on, you dont fight fair
But thats o.k., see if I care!
Knock me down, its all in vain
Ill get right back on my feet again!"
9.Aztec gods.-hearts. goo.-you get the idea.
10.Mayhem Level.-radioactive x ray-put on heavy shielding.-one way trip no return.

...or something.:)

[CybrGfx]

Well, since Mr. Stahlberg's Paintover Please! thread is on hiatus, maybe we could start a "Hardcore Crit/PaintOver" thread, with your rating system, and members can submit works with a rating...No mean spirited critiques, but hopefully helpful, if possibly painful...

Goodness knows the Paintover quality will nowhere approach that level...Heck, it will be okay, at best, but I know some people truly do want more than the general asspat critique some people complain of in other parts of these forums...

Dunno. Looks like we already ran poor Glenn off. This might not be the best approach from an artist standpoint...

~Cyber

[CLONEOPS]

It sure does seem like Stahlberg has been off that for quite a while.

Hi my names bob, would you like a general asspat critique.
great opening line.~give you a dollar if you try it.:)

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