Sketchbook Thread of Imagus

[Rebeccak]

Hi and welcome.

First I would say not to confuse anatomy with drawing. Drawing principles are half of an equation whose other half is Anatomy, which makes up the whole of Figure Drawing. I would venture to say that Drawing Principles are more important than Anatomy to drawing. Something I've heard said by many teachers is that there are plenty of doctors who know their anatomy, but can't draw to save their own lives. So there's something in the equation that is missing apart from just knowledge of muscles and bones.

I recommend picking up Glenn Vilppu's gesture DVD and possibly his drawing manual. Then I recommend using his techniques and practicing 2, 5, and 10 minute sketches using reference from the 15 Minute Sketchathon thread (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=199&t=298699), characterdesigns.com / photosets (http://characterdesigns.com/index.php?sitepage=photosets), or just plain Google.

Post your progress here. And if you can, sit in on a life drawing class, just for the practice in front of a live model.

[anandpg]

Hi Ed! Welcome!!.. I have nothing to add to Rebecca's excellent advice. Start posting as soon as possible, and you can count on us (as well as all the other artists who frequent here) to give you all the necessary citiques! I am book-marking your thread!:bounce:

Wish you all the best!!:thumbsup:

[shapemaster]

yeah, post some of your work. Maybe it aint that bad. lets see first what u got!

[Imagus]

Hey, all. Thanks for the responses.

I won't be able to get to it until later this evening, but I'll gather up some of my (what I consider to be) better recent work, both traditional and digital, and scan/post them up here. I did quickly rifle through some of my incomplete digital pieces, and there are a few that seem at least presentable.

I can also include some of the more lackluster efforts and/or the sketches from the other sketchbook thread as well, if anyone feels that it would help.

yeah, post some of your work. Maybe it aint that bad. lets see first what u got!That would be a refreshing reality check, for once, if it turned out to be true. We'll see.

[ceruleanvii]

Hi Ed, your post really struck a chord with me. I studied art in college too, long long ago, and looking back, my education was definetely lacking. Lots of figure drawing, but no anatomy classes offered. The one I'm taking now, on my own through a continuing ed program, has really opened my eyes. Both to how to draw the figure better - and to how much my drawing skills need work!

My current anatomy teacher is of the same mind as Rebecca - drawing and anatomy go hand in hand. He feels one needs to have a good handle on drawing the figure before learning the anatomy. Makes sense.

Anyway, welcome, I look forward to seeing your work!

[Imagus]

Sorry for the delay in posting images... turns out that this week I have the least amount of free time I've had in a while. Add in the fact that I can't find photocopies of my sketchbook that I made a while ago, and it took me until now to get everything ready to go. Looks like a heck of a time to start an anatomy thread.

There will be a few posts to start, some from life, many from imagination, and some from studies. As I was going through them, I think I was picking up on some of the inaccuracies and deficiencies I hadn't noticed before, especially in the drawings from imagination. I've scaled the images down, but there will still be a good number of them, so it may take a moment for them to load.

Part I - Anatomy Class, September-December, 2006

Here is a very limited selection of sketches from my skeletal anatomy drawing course back in 2006. They were all done from life (with items added to "War and Peace"), in a sketchbook with mechanical pencil, 8.5" x 11" paper size. I wanted to concentrate on the subject matter, and felt that keeping the materials simple would help me do that. As a side benefit, it makes things a bit easier to scan in as well.

http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/5MinFigures.jpg

http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/Skull.jpg

http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/ManAndSkeleton1page.jpg

http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/ManAndSkeleton2page.jpg
(The above image is across two pages in the sketchbook)

http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/WarAndPeace.jpg

In this drawing, I was working from a sculpture at an MFA. First, we had to examine and do quick studies of the sculpture from multiple angles, interpreting the position of the skeleton, specifically the shoulder girdle area. Then we selected a position and created a more detailed drawing of the subject, using what we had observed.

Studies:
http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/StatueStudies.jpg

Final Image:
http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/Statue.jpg

[Imagus]

Here are some examples of character concepts created either during or shortly after I was taking/took the anatomy course. The first was for Michelle Bousquet's Low-Poly Modeling workshop, the second for Dominance War II. Unfortunately, I did not finish either entry. I also have rendered images of my final progress, but forgot to take them with me for posting. I may add them later.

http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/LuxaraFront.jpg

http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/LuxaraSide.jpg

http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/IathiaConcept.jpg

[Imagus]

Here are a few examples of paintings I started in 2007 and 2008. They are at varying levels of completion.

In the first, I rendered a figure in Poser, then used that render as a reference (not a paintover) to create the figure.

Poser Render:
http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/IlluminaPose.jpg

Figure Painting:
http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/Illumina1v1.jpg

Cothing Added:
http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/Illumina1v2.jpg

Additional paintings:

http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/RecliningWoman.jpg

http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/AnimeAmbush.jpg

http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/WitchesBrew.jpg

http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/EgyptianPrincess.jpg

[Imagus]

Here are some examples of imagination sketches from last year.

Some character concept pieces for an anime-themed RPG game:

http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/Altosian.jpg

http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/BigKitty.jpg

http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/BrassyWoman.jpg

And a couple of random sketches from a page in a sketchbook:

http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/TwoMen.jpg

[Imagus]

Here are some of my most recent sketches from 2008. Most are imagination sketches, but there is also a page related to studying arm musculature. On that page, the two parger pictures are based on illustrations in the book "Anatomy School", and the rest are exploring the forms from various angles.

Arm Study Page:

http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/ArmStudies.jpg

Other pages of quick, informal sketches:

http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/RecentImagination1.jpg

http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/RecentImagination2.jpg

http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/RecentImagination3.jpg

Very recent sketches, from a small 8" x 5" sketchbook:

http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/SmSketchbook5.jpg

http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/SmSketchbook6.jpg
(above page is the most recent - from yesterday evening)

[Imagus]

As a bit of an addendum, I've decided to include the sketches from the aforementioned former sketchbook thread. Most were created very quickly and informally, as the thread was meant to get me drawing regularly again (I had been slacking off quite a bit). As such, similar to the informal pages above, they are probably among my weakest work... but they are also among the most recent.

From a small sketchbook... about 8" x 5"
http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/SmSketchbook1.jpg

http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/SmSketchbook2.jpg

http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/SmSketchbook3.jpg

http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/SmSketchbook4.jpg

Digital:
http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/ClandestineTwilight.jpg

http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/CarelessDreamer.jpg

http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/Bodyguard.jpg

http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/PsychoStreetInProg1.jpg
(the above isn't figure drawing, but I did post it in the sketchbook)

And that's about it for now... sorry if it's too much, or too little. Obviously, I've tried to pick the best works from the bunch, except for the most recent sketches. At the very least, it should hopefully it give you an idea of where I am artistically, even if it's not that far along.

[Rebeccak]

Imagus,

Glad to see you've posted. I'd stay away from the anime style stuff and try doing more realistic studies. Take a look at the gesture drawing that I posted to Ayenlou's thread here (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=200&t=598478&highlight=ayenlou). I'd recommend doing a series of 2, 5, and 10 minute poses using reference (see the links posted in the thread above) and do them traditionally. I think your realistic studies are much stronger than your drawings from imagination, and I would recommend working to strengthen your observational and gestural skills by doing the gesture studies such as the ones posted in the link above.

Looking forward to more,

-R

[Imagus]

Imagus,

Glad to see you've posted. I'd stay away from the anime style stuff and try doing more realistic studies. Take a look at the gesture drawing that I posted to Ayenlou's thread here (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=200&t=598478&highlight=ayenlou). I'd recommend doing a series of 2, 5, and 10 minute poses using reference (see the links posted in the thread above) and do them traditionally. I think your realistic studies are much stronger than your drawings from imagination, and I would recommend working to strengthen your observational and gestural skills by doing the gesture studies such as the ones posted in the link above.

Looking forward to more,

-ROkay, will do. As you mentioned, when I'm drawing from life, I usually get much better results. The trick is, in the fields I'm interested in, animation and comics, I oviously won't have life reference available for each drawing, so learning how to visualize form and translate that into imagination drawing will be key, at least once my skills have improved.

Since anime and comic styles inspire me, I tend to leap forward ahead of schedule a lot, as I enjoy drawing in those styles. I'll try to rein that in and work on more traditional studies for a while. Life studies aren't really available to me, so would photos, Poser models, other sources, or all of the above be the best to go with for studies?

I'll look through the thread you linked to to get an idea of how to proceed with the sketches. If there are any other threads you feel are worth pointing me to, I'll check them out as well.

Also, if I notice improvement in my more anime-styled personal sketches, I may post them up from time to time, just for comparison. It's my hope/anticipation that the realistic life studies will help me improve in all areas, not just realistic life drawing/painting.

Edit: Quick specific question: what does it mean to "draw across the form"? (told you my art education sucked... ;))

[ceruleanvii]

Hi Imagus, glad to see you've posted some of your work! Some nice studies, I like the arms and skull. I also find it much easier to draw from life, and SO many times I wish I had my own personal model. Here are a few resources that might help you out -
-------
http://www.posemaniacs.com/
might be good for some quick sketch type stuff?
-------
http://www.human-anatomy-for-artist.com/
pay site, but lots of detailed hi-res photos
-------
http://www.freedomofteach.com/products/figures/figure_male_1
I think I'm going to bite the bullet and buy this guy. My anatomy teacher has him and brings him into class to help illustrate certain points, and it's very helpful to see it there, right in front of you, in 3D. I have tons of reference drawings and photos about anatomy, but I keep wishing I had that little dude there when I'm trying to figure something out. So I'm going to shell out the $$$ - an early birthday present for myself :)

Keep drawing and posting, looking forward to seeing more!

[Rebeccak]

Imagus, drawing across or around the form means describing the simple volumes of the form (spheres and the like) by drawing across their contour instead of merely up and down the sides. See the link to ayenlou's thread that I linked earlier and read through that, it should explain what I mean. :)

Also I recommend Glenn Vilppu's DVD on Gesture and his Drawing Manual.

[Imagus]

Imagus, drawing across or around the form means describing the simple volumes of the form (spheres and the like) by drawing across their contour instead of merely up and down the sides. See the link to ayenlou's thread that I linked earlier and read through that, it should explain what I mean. :)Ah... missed it. Sorry... that'll teach me to skim. :p I'll try to get to some studies and post up soon... lot of stuff going on, so it probably won't be until at least tomorrow.

Also I recommend Glenn Vilppu's DVD on Gesture and his Drawing Manual.I'll look into it, but money's going to be getting a bit tight soon. The "stuff going on" is me finishing up at my current job. :p

ceruleanvii - Thanks for the suggestions. Good refresher on posemaniacs - remember seeing that a while back in another thread. The one down side I heard was that, since the anatomical illustrations are mapped onto a static model, you don't really get a good sense of how the musculature and bones react to a given pose. However, it looks like a good reference for basic placement.

I also knew about Human Anatomy For the Artist - it's run by the same people as 3d.sk, which I signed up for when I took Steven Stahlberg's Cybergirl 6 workshop. 3d.sk has a much larger selection of pictures, I believe, but anatomy for the artist may have better poses. I may sign up for one/both of them, just for reference material - any recommendations or information is/are welcome.

I've also heard of the Freedom of Teach statue, but $199 may be a bit much right now - money's getting tight, and I'm working on getting a new computer (P4's getting a little outdated). However, I was wondering if you (or anyone else) has an opinion about the "Structure of Man" DVD (http://thestructureofmandvd.blogspot.com/). It's reasonably priced, and I've been eyeing it for a while. Obviously, it may necessarily help out with the kind of gesture drawing I'll be working on for right now, but it might be helpful long-term.

[Imagus]

First attempt... looks like I was working for Michelin. Was trying to concentrate on drawing across the form, and seeking out circles, but get the sense I'm not really getting what I'm supposed to be looking for... I was focusing more on visualizing solid, three-dimensional forms, but it felt more like drawing around the figure than across it. Anyway...


http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/Sketches/Sketches1Post.jpg

They aren't really 2, 5 and 15 minute sketches - more like short, longer, longest sketches - as I really have no way of timing them at the moment. I plan to either pick up an egg timer or download/program some kind of timer software.

[DivineRAiN]

hiyas, you've done some pretty nice sketches.. I like the arm studies too, and the anime stuff. Have you tried any of the Hogarth's anatomy books? You can find some of Vilppu's articles stuff online by googling his name. Doesn't replace books or dvds, but it can't hurt either.

[SylvanMist]

Hi Imagus,
Nice character sketches you have here! I went through the structure of man dvd's..they are good as a basic anatomy foundation course, it did help me, but I also still use many books for reference.(anatomy for the artist by Jeno Barclay, drawing the head & figure by Jack ham, and visualizing muscles by john cody)
On that last gesture sketch you did it looks like you got the basic forms down well but they all look too round. The human body has a lot of curves but also a lot of straight like planes too.

[Imagus]

hiyas, you've done some pretty nice sketches.. I like the arm studies too, and the anime stuff. Have you tried any of the Hogarth's anatomy books? You can find some of Vilppu's articles stuff online by googling his name. Doesn't replace books or dvds, but it can't hurt either.Hey, Divine. Thanks for replying. :)

Dynamic Anatomy is actually the first anatomy book I picked up, several years back, as it was highly recommended by just about everyone I spoke to. The trick was, back then, I really wasn't sure how to take advantage of it properly, though I did get some good info on the forms of the neck from it. I keep meaning to get Dynamic Figure Drawing, but haven't as yet.

I just looked up Vilppu's site, and wow, those DVDs look sweet - wish I could afford them all. I Also wish I could take his courses in person. For now, $60 (+S&H) for the book and Gesture DVD seem reasonable. At the very least, I'll definitely consider getting the book, as it covers everything the DVD set does. I can then augment the book with DVDs as I go.

Just to verify I've got the correct itmes:
Book: http://www.vilppustore.com/VDM.htm (Vilppu Drawing Manual)
Gesture DVD: http://www.vilppustore.com/Figrdvd.htm (Chapter I, Gesture)

Hi Imagus,
Nice character sketches you have here! I went through the structure of man dvd's..they are good as a basic anatomy foundation course, it did help me, but I also still use many books for reference.(anatomy for the artist by Jeno Barclay, drawing the head & figure by Jack ham, and visualizing muscles by john cody)
On that last gesture sketch you did it looks like you got the basic forms down well but they all look too round. The human body has a lot of curves but also a lot of straight like planes too.Hey, roja. Thanks for the reply. Also thanks for the info on Structure of Man and the book suggestions, as well as the feedback on the recent gesture sketch.

On the sketch, I'm still a little confused as to how to approach the figure... traditionally, I've used a stick-and-oval technique to lay out the figure, then used the lines as a guide to create the forms, even in life drawing. However, it looks like I was pretty much using the three-column method that Rebecca says not to, so I'm trying to adjust to a more volumetric approach as she illustrates in the thread (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=200&t=598478&highlight=ayenlou) she linked to. I get the feeling the Vilppu manual she's mentioned will help a great deal, as it covers a lot of the fundamentals of figure drawing techniques.

The only thing harder than learning something new is unlearning and re-learning something you already know. :p

[Imagus]

Picked up a pencil and randomly started sketching from imagination, keeping the "drawing through the figure" concept in mind, and came up with something semi-presentable. They were all fairly quick sketches, probably somewhere between 5 and 10 minutes each. Still not 100% sure I'm getting the concept down, but I kind of like the sense of volume in some of these figures.

http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/Sketches/Sketches3_Imag.jpg

[Imagus]

Finally got a rudimentary timer coded, so decided to do a 2-5-15 study. It came out kind of "meh". Not sure if the clothing obscuring the forms was getting in the way, but I'm not that impressed with these... the proportions are also way off, especially in the 15. Also, not really sure I did much drawing through the figure... I tried to keep volumetric forms in mind, but they all kind of ended up looking flat.

Anyway, here they are.

http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/Sketches/Sketches2.jpg

[Rebeccak]

I like the first set, keep going with those. Generally speaking, nude figures are better to draw than clothed so that you can get a sense and understanding of the underlying volumes. Speaking of volume, that's what's really required in terms of drawing - in order to improve, you literally must do hundreds of drawings. :) Looking forward to more.

[Imagus]

Here's a pretty awful 2-5-15 set. I'll probably try this pose again later, as I certainly didn't do it justice here. My personal favorite is the tiny-headed amazon on the right, though all of them are pretty off - the proportions and gesture are all pretty laughable. And, to top it all off, it really doesn't look like I drew across the figure very well, either. This definitely seems like a solid step backwards.

I'm going to try to get one or two more 2-5-15 sets in today, but I'm very foggy-headed and tired for some reason. That may be a major part of the reason for my lack of drawing skills at the moment, so I'm going to take a break and come back to it. For now, here you go.

http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/Sketches/Sketches4.jpg
http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/Sketches

[shapemaster]

im no expert, but i suggest to draw simpler forms. when i started out i jumped right into figure drawing and it was horrible. later on my former teacher made me draw simple objects, like a cube or a cylinder, the next step was a still life.
it may not be as impressive as a figure drawing but it does teach you how to control your lines and convey depth. it also trains you to make use of all values, from black to white. i think this is very essential in order to improve one's drawing skills.
from what i see, you need to improve on your understanding of forms. it seems now that you only try to capture the outline, but youre not considering the form which creates the outline.
as long as you only work with outlines, you wont be able to fully grasp it. But trying to shade the human figure right from the beginning surely is difficult. so, simpler forms may be the solution.
it may look awkward at first, but you cant evade it forever. my suggestion is to start working with values on simpler forms, as the human figure is a very complex object.
this method really helped me a lot and i hope this is of some help to you too.

[Imagus]

im no expert, but i suggest to draw simpler forms. when i started out i jumped right into figure drawing and it was horrible. later on my former teacher made me draw simple objects, like a cube or a cylinder, the next step was a still life.
it may not be as impressive as a figure drawing but it does teach you how to control your lines and convey depth. it also trains you to make use of all values, from black to white. i think this is very essential in order to improve one's drawing skills.
from what i see, you need to improve on your understanding of forms. it seems now that you only try to capture the outline, but youre not considering the form which creates the outline.
as long as you only work with outlines, you wont be able to fully grasp it. But trying to shade the human figure right from the beginning surely is difficult. so, simpler forms may be the solution.
it may look awkward at first, but you cant evade it forever. my suggestion is to start working with values on simpler forms, as the human figure is a very complex object.
this method really helped me a lot and i hope this is of some help to you too.Wow... it's that bad?

It took me until several years after attaining my art degree to realize that, in fact, I needed to think more three-dimensionally. The drawing exercises that Rebecca suggested, which I have been doing, focus on analyzing the figure as basic shapes, or forms, and I have been doing my best to adhere to that. I have also been working to understand the forms of the human body in a more three-dimensional way, something which the anatomy course helped with a great deal.

Thanks for the feedback. If my drawing is truly at such a rudimentary level, I should probably reconsider the plausibility of success as an artist, given how long it has taken me to get this far.

Just another reality check, I guess. :sad:

[shapemaster]

imagus, sorry if it sounded a bit hard, but i really didnt mean to discourage you. what im saying is that your problem doesn't lie in anatomy, but - as you correctly stated yourself - more in the basics.
its the same with other things. as an example: if you start learning guitar its a very bad idea to pick a really difficult song right from the beginning. the difficulty and complexity will quickly intimidate you. but if you start easy you will progress much faster and soon will be able to play that difficult song with ease.
or: you cant run 20 km without ever having trained for it, its much more likely that you drop dead after 5 km.
its the same with art. start simple and you will progress faster than you'd expect. drawing the human figure is like a 20 km run, or a difficult song.
if you go through the basics, youll quickly reach a point where youll be able to utilize all the knowledge about anatomy you achieved earlier. so, its not wasted effort after all.
they shouldve taught u that in art school though. either its a really bad school or you havent been very attentive. ( ... peace ...)
if u want to improve: never ever consider to give up!
btw, dont take it too seriously, art is essentially something enjoyable! :D

[aggie93]

Something you can try is to go to posemaniacs.com and do the 60 second random selector thing. You can start working on the gestures and that will help you get things on paper. Work your way from doing fast sketches to longer sketches. It took me awhile to realize this but I think it helped me to get proportions down better. Good luck!

[ceruleanvii]

Aw Imagus, you're sounding discouraged. Don't be. It may take awhile, but if you're serious about it and practice a lot, improvement is inevitable. Really. I started seriously trying to improve my drawing skills roughly 12 months ago, and yes, it's been slow and frustrating, but I have gotten somewhat better, I can see it.

Everyone's throwing advice at you, so I'll do the same...

Can you get in on a figure or life drawing session? Sometimes art schools have ones that are open to non students, also continuing/community ed programs. There's nothing like drawing from a live model - you're forced to think quickly and draw decisively.

Eevryone's got their favorite books - I think Loomis' Figure Drawing for All its Worth is a great one.

And, yes, maybe take a step back, and practice drawing simpler shapes - cones, cubes, cylinders, spheres, practice rendering form/mass/volume. As you know, the body can be broken down into all of the above...

I can see some nice things in your drawings - hang in there and don't give up!

[SylvanMist]

Imagus, in all seriousness, your drawings are not bad! In fact your last one is really quite good. IMO, what you need to do is just draw and draw, just keep practicing. What I see you as lacking is the ability to "see", to "copy". What you're doing is drawing from a photo, and you're trying to get it to look as close as possible. To do that simply takes practice of drawing anything.
Although I'm sure drawing basic shapes can help as others have mentioned, don't bore yourself-you won't want to draw anything! Draw what you love, subject matter that interests you, no matter what it is. Drawing in any form is practice.

[Imagus]

[post removed]

[Rebeccak]

Ed,

Admittedly, that was long winded. :) I think the best thing to do if you really, really want to get good at drawing is to attend an atelier and take some hard core fundamental classes.

Where do you live? Check out www.artrenewal.org's listing of ateliers:

http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/atelier_list.asp

Effort is one thing, quality training is another. Effort + quality training is a ticket to success. No effort + bad training = lack of success.

I do know that drawing is frustrating, and I've been banging my head against it for 10 years. There are only so many times, however, that a person can encourage you not to give up. There are a million resources for advancing one's ability - on forums, but I think in your case you're best off in a structured class - check out community colleges, which are relatively inexpensive and often have quality instruction. At the least, pick up a few of the DVDs mentioned and work from those.

If it eats you up enough that you can't draw to the level you would wish now, then you need to be in a class that will take you to the next level. While none of us will ever be Michelangelo, we can always get better than we are. How much better depends on the effort you put in and the amount of resources you are able to invest.

There are plenty of times when I've felt that I was spinning my wheels and not improving in my art. That's unfortunately par for the course. Most of us don't advance on a curve going straight upward, for the most part it's peaks, plateaus, and valleys. So long as we're trudging forward, though, there's always the possibility of success. Statisically, if you stop trying, you don't have those same chances. ;)

[Imagus]

There are plenty of times when I've felt that I was spinning my wheels and not improving in my art. That's unfortunately par for the course. Most of us don't advance on a curve going straight upward, for the most part it's peaks, plateaus, and valleys. So long as we're trudging forward, though, there's always the possibility of success. Statisically, if you stop trying, you don't have those same chances. ;)Thanks for the feedback, Rebecca. I've removed and archived my original, long-winded post, as it really doesn't serve any purpose in helping me further my art or attaining my goals. However, thank you for reading and taking the time to respond to it.

As you said, if you don't try, you can't succeed. The important thing is to keep striving towards my goals, however I may reach them. I may succeed, I may fail, but the worst thing I can do is give up.

I'll continue to study drawing and anatomy, and continue to post up here from time to time. And, of course, I welcome all advice and assistance towards helping me improve. Also, thanks for the link to the ateliers. Unfortunately, there aren't any in my area, and quality classes/money for them are a bit hard to come by at the moment, but I'll be keeping my eyes open.

Roja
Thanks for your encouragement, and for the advice to not let myself get bored with drawing. It's the kind of advice I've given to others in the past. I think the best thing is to strike a balance between fundamentals and just plain fun. Study something intently, then apply it to something you enjoy doing. That way, pick up fundamentals, and your "fun" drawings improve right along with them. At least, that's the way I like to do it.

ceruleanvii
Thanks for the moral support, and for the advice on taking life classes. Given my location and current finances, they may be a bit hard to come by. However, I'll be keeping my eyes open, and hopefully be able to pick up a class or two here in there. In the meantime, I'll be doing my best to study independently.

aggie93
Thanks for the 60-second pose heads-up... I'll check it out.

shapemaster
As a guitar player myself, I know what you mean. At this point, I've been playing for 17 years, and I forget that my first efforts were simple one-fingering changes or basic chords. While I'd like to be further along in the basics of art at the moment, the fact is that it's better to start over now than to never start at all - I'll read up a bit and see if I can't find some good exercises. And, for the record, it was a bad school compounded by the fact that I had nothing to compare it to that allowed me to realize that it was, in fact, a bad school. :p

To everyone, here's hoping for the best. Wish me luck! :)

[BenDstraw]

Imagus: Wow, even though your better than me. Everyones words ring true for me and inspire me to improve my skills. Im going to bookmark your thread and learn from your improvments, and maybe I'll work up the coruage to start my own sketchbook thread

best of luck with your art.

[Imagus]

Imagus: Wow, even though your better than me. Everyones words ring true for me and inspire me to improve my skills. Im going to bookmark your thread and learn from your improvments, and maybe I'll work up the coruage to start my own sketchbook thread

best of luck with your art.Hey, Ben. Thanks for posting. I still have a lot to learn, myself. I recommend starting a thread. Even though it can sometimes be tough to take critique, it's a good way to get a truly objective take on your work.

I'll do my best to improve, and look forward to seeing your own thread once you create it. :)

[Imagus]

Been doing a lot of drawing, mostly imagination, using drawing-through techniques to help figure out placement of volumes. Having learned what was happening with my drawing, I can now easily see and feel what everyone else can in my work, and realize that I've got a very long way to go.

Also trying to come up with a plan to re-learn 15+ years of bad drawing practices. I'd like to take some drawing courses but, unfortunately, money's the issue as usual. I've dusted off Hogarth's Dynamic Anatomy book, and can now understand why many of the illustrations are drawn the way they are. I'll probably also pick up Vilppu's book, but the DVDs may not happen for a little while, due to cost.

I plan to try and post updates here at least once a week. Wish me luck.

[Imagus]

Been re-reading Hogarth's Dynamic Anatomy, focusing on the arm for now. Like the way the muscle masses are grouped, but finding certain parts are still confusing. Mainly, how the inner and outer (flexor/extensor) muscle groups are positioned relative to the wrist. They are opposite in orientation to the biceps and the triceps, but I'm having trouble visualizing how they wrap around the radius and ulna.

It seems as though, when the arm is fully supinated, the two muscle masses run on either side of the forearm, around the elbow protrusion, meeting at the wrist. Then, when the arm is pronated, since the bones overlap and the wrist is turned 180 degrees, the muscle groups twist part-way around the arm from their position opposite the elbow protrusion to where they connect at the wrist. I know that the flat area of the wrist always follows the palm of the hand, so this makes the most sense.

In general, visualizing the back (posterior) aspect of the arm is giving me a bit of trouble as well, though the triceps seem to meet up with the elbow protrusion, while the forearm groups move around it - which makes sense, given the opposing aspects of the forearm and upper arm groups. I've also been keeping an eye out in real life for opportunities to observe the back sides of arms, and have been noticing many of the landmarks when doing so.

http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/Sketches/031308/031308ArmStudies.jpg

The drawings above are from imagination, using the information presented in Hogarth's book. There are also a couple of quick neck drawings (center), as I briefly revisited the neck's structure. Plan to work on the arm a little more, studying and incorporating the wrist and hand, as well as junction points with the neck and torso, then move on to the torso and/or neck muscles.

Below is also a selection of imagination drawings from the last week or two, meant to practice working a bit less iconically and more volumetrically. Using extreme angles helps break away from iconic visualization and forces the focus to general forms. In addition to Hogarth's book, I've been using parts of a hard-to-find book called "Sketching to Plan" from the How To Draw Manga series that incorporates more simplified aspects of elements of anatomy, form and figure drawing. All of these drawings were done prior to the arm studies.

Apologies for the anime/manga style, but I'm working to incorporate more traditional anatomy studies and figure drawing into manga-esque imagination drawings as I go, to increase knowledge, build familiarity and, especially, maintain interest.

http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/Sketches/031308/031308PostImag1.jpghttp://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/Sketches/031308/031308PostImag2.jpghttp://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/Sketches/031308/031308PostImag3.jpghttp://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/Sketches/031308/031308PostImag4.jpghttp://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/Sketches/031308/031308PostImag6.jpghttp://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/Sketches/031308/031308PostImag5.jpghttp://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/Sketches/031308/031308PostImag7.jpg

[Rebeccak]

Cool, keep doing these studies. I might also recommend mixing these up with studies done from reference from www.characterdesigns.com / photosets.

[Imagus]

Been dealing with a lot of non-art related stuff recently, and doing a lot of non-figurative drawing for other projects. Still studying up on anatomy, and my Gnomon Character Design DVD finally got here. No specific drawing studies to show, but definitely making progress. Revisited an old modeling effort of mine and spotted several things right away that needed tweaking, My perception and visualization's definitely falling into place.

Look forward to everyone's feedback when I start updating this thread regularly again... (hope I haven't scared/bored anyone off! :p), and thanks again for the support. :)

[Imagus]

Top center copied from Dynamic Anatomy, top left from Anatomy School book. A little confused as to the structure of Rectus Abdominis... Hogarth has three divisions, including lower abdominal, Anatomy School has four. Any help on this appreciated.

Other sketches excercises in visualizing the front musculature from various angles.

http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/Sketches/042608/FrontTorsoStudiesPost.jpg

[Rebeccak]

Nice to see the studies. Not sure if you're aware, but this Workshop is currently ongoing:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=199&t=619548

Also this is a blog post that might help in terms of a straight line approach to blocking in form. This was done for the Workshop linked above:

http://mirrorbooks.blogspot.com/2008/04/ofdw-023-hand-10-traditional-wip.html'

The basic idea is to block things in in graphite first, using straight lines to get the angles. Then complete the rendering in either graphite or charcoal. I've found this approach to be really useful.

[Imagus]

Nice to see the studies. Not sure if you're aware, but this Workshop is currently ongoing:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=199&t=619548Ah, no, I hadn't seen that... looks very cool. Not sure if I'd be able to get 25 done in the time remaining, but I may divert to the hand sections of my books and have a go at it.

Right now I'm working on the back, and trying to resolve the muscular structure with those of the torso to gain a full understanding of the muscle structure of the core. After that, the legs, as I haven't really studied their structure in-depth. After that, on to hands and feet. This way, I hope to be able to understand how everything comes together.

Also this is a blog post that might help in terms of a straight line approach to blocking in form. This was done for the Workshop linked above:

http://mirrorbooks.blogspot.com/2008/04/ofdw-023-hand-10-traditional-wip.html'

The basic idea is to block things in in graphite first, using straight lines to get the angles. Then complete the rendering in either graphite or charcoal. I've found this approach to be really useful.Sounds like it may be worth trying, minus the charcoal - I usually work on 8.5 X 11" paper with mechanical pencil. ;)

For some reason, things have always seemed to come out more volumetric when I use straight lines. So, especially with the relatively bony hands, this may be a good way to capture the basic structure before fleshing out the curves. Worth a shot.

I'll probably have some back studies to post later today, and I'll try to carve out some time to get started on the hand workshop.

Thanks for the response, and for the links. :)

[Imagus]

Studies of the muscles of the back. Top center copied from Hogarth, top left from Anatomy School, all the rest interpretation and adaptation of the muscles from various angles to help with visualization of form.

Having a bit more trouble with these than the front torso muscles, but it's starting to come together. Once I've gotten a bit more of a sense of the back's structure, I'll work on tying the front and back torso together to get a sense of the structure as a whole.

http://www.imaginteractive.com/CGTalk/AnatomyThread/Sketches/042808/BackTorsoStudiesPost.jpg

[Rebeccak]

Hey there, good to see more studies. I definitely recommend trying some blocking in with straight angles in graphite. I guarantee it will help. :) Also, you might try working a bit larger, say on 18" x 24" paper. That forces you out of your comfort zone (unless you are already working that large, in which case, ignore me ;)) and to have to gage across the form a bit more systematically. Currently I think the drawings are a little oversimplified, and a big idea within Hogarth's work is the idea of opposing curves - see the article link in my signature. He talks about that concept (though not necessarily calling it the same thing) in his books. It's basically a principle in drawing concerning the relationship between the apexes of curves defining form. It's definitely something to investigate further in drawings, really, throughout your life as an artist. You'll see that principle going back in figurative work for centuries. :)

[NR43]

Quite a story, Ed.
Will be very interesting to see your progress...

Keep going!
And I hope you'll be able to show us some hands :)
The OFDW is awesome again and everyone is learning heaps there!

[ceruleanvii]

Good to see you back again, Ed! The studies are coming along well, I like the front torsos.

[Imagus]

Hey NR43/ceruleanvii/RebeccaK

Thanks for the feedback. :) The cool thing about the recent studies is the sense form I'm getting. Basically, as I think about, reference and copy the muscle drawings, I'm becoming more and more familiar with how the body is laid out and structured, and I'm able to both better perceive and depict the human form. Even when I don't necessarily have the time to sit down and draw studies, I'm usually thinking about what I've already learned, and will often pick up a reference book(s) to help visualize areas with which I'm having trouble.

The back muscles have pretty much fallen into place, and I'll probably be moving on to the legs and lower torso soon. The area of the obliques are giving me a bit of trouble at the moment, and I think that reconciling them with the leg muscles will help. The other area that's still confusing to me is the forearms - the twisting forms of the muscles around the radius and ulna are something that I still have a hard time depicting. Hopefully the hands workshop will help with that.

I'm also definitely feeling the need to add at least one or two solid figure drawing books to my library, as I've mostly focused on anatomy books to date. I'm thinking Vilppu's book and possibly Dynamic Figure Drawing would be good choices, but other suggestions are more than welcome as well. As Rebecca mentioned earlier, drawing is just as important to figure drawing as knowledge of the figure.

[MiguelS]

Nice sketches, it looks like you're feeling the masses of the muscles.
A tip would be to try to be a little more loose while drawing, make quick sketches, longterm sketches, just sketch a lot. :p

Keep it up. :)

[Imagus]

Been way too long since I've updated this thread... got a lot going on, much of which is preventing me from getting more studies done. Hopefully, I'll be able to start posting here again soon. Until then, please pardon my lack of updates.

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