PDA

View Full Version : Messiah 3.0 fur ball


borisgoreta2000
02-24-2008, 11:35 PM
Here is a decent looking fur ball.

stooch
02-25-2008, 04:45 AM
cool. can you take a crack and see if you can match or beat this:

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=659915&postcount=745

?

borisgoreta2000
02-25-2008, 08:13 AM
I can beat that with my eyes closed and one hand behind my back. :)

But take a look at those two examples. M3.0 can generate flat or rounded thick hair which looks better then if I went and modeled it. So it doesn't leave an impression of something fake. I bet you can get very close and it would still look believable. It hurts me when M3.0 lets me use only 2 out of 8 cores for rendering. :scream:

And please notice how every strand casts shadow on some other strands.

And shading capabilities are fantastic. If I got it correct you shade it just as any other solid object = limitless possibilities. I think M3.0 beats SAS in shading capabilities.

M3.0 doesn't have so many styling parameters as SAS but it does have different workflow. You can actually see fibers in OpenGL which is great for styling. You can use metaeffectors and Nulls to comb the hair and control all of the parameters. SAS needs a lot of F niners to acomplish good looking style but then again SAS has automatic combing based on a given starting polygon/surface.

On the dynamics front M3.0 is not yet finished, I think fibers can't automatically react to the movement of the object but I believe this will be possible in the next update. In the meantime you can make manual setups to achieve dynamics as you will se in my next post.

borisgoreta2000
02-25-2008, 08:23 AM
Fur with some kind of dynamics ....

Wireframes
02-25-2008, 08:40 AM
thanks Boris :thumbsup:

edit : "It hurts me when M3.0 lets me use only 2 out of 8 cores for rendering"

Do you have the pro version of M3 ?if not you need the multi-core plugin

Phil

borisgoreta2000
02-25-2008, 11:03 AM
I know I need to unlock multi-core/64 bit module but it costs money :wise:

JoeCosman
02-25-2008, 05:48 PM
has anyone tried running multiple instances of messiah? at least for the 'farm on a box' style rendering? does that get around the dual core limit issue? it would be cool to have 8 cores chugging away at a shader :)

stooch
02-25-2008, 08:38 PM
I can beat that with my eyes closed and one hand behind my back. :)

Hi, i dont believe you.

Actions speak louder than words, if you can beat the hairy balls with your eyes closed and your arm behind your back - then you should have just done so instead of writing a paragraph. So far sas output looks better than your furball. so lets see those superior hairy balls of yours.

also your dynamics test doesnt really show any dynamics. seems to me that you just animated the spheres rotation.

Wegg
02-25-2008, 09:17 PM
cool. can you take a crack and see if you can match or beat this:

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=659915&postcount=745

?

In my opinion, Messiah's fur beats Sasquatch's fur in "real" lighting environments every time. With Sasquatch, everything you do with lights is a "trick". You can't cast ray traced shadows from it, you have to apply shaders to everything in your scene if you want to "catch" the shadow for comping etc. Self shadowing is done with shadow maps and its a REAL dog to get it to not flicker like crazy in complex lighting environments.

I could set up scene after scene were Messiah's fur would "beat" Sasquatch's because its a "real" fur solution that works with everything! Reflections, refractions, raytraced shadows cast from it/on it etc. All without having to configure a single thing.

BUT. . . I have also used Sasquatch enough to know where IT can beat Messiah's implementation. It has some great "clumping" tools that make animal fur look really good. . . and its fake dynamics are very slick.

I'm at the point. . (yet again) where I'm very frustrated with your negativity stooch. Its a real downer. Can you make an attempt to talk about the software itself and not throw insulting, insinuating remarks around so indiscriminately?

borisgoreta2000
02-25-2008, 09:28 PM
Hi Joe, I like your vids on Messiah Facial Animation.

Yes you can load two instances of M3.0 and then each uses 2 cores. Cool. We should keep quiet about this, we don't want pmG to limit that too.

Stooch, there was a smiley icon next to my statement, so that was a joke. But it doesn't mean it can't be done.

I didn't animate sphere at the end, why would I do that and say it is some kind of dynamics ? I have set up motion dynamics effect which drives combing Null which makes hair go around.

I don't take M3.0 personaly, it is just a tool I use and I am trying to learn new features and and share some insight with other users.

Stooch, what do you think about nice shadows fibers are casting and the thick geometry it can produce ?

borisgoreta2000
02-25-2008, 09:34 PM
Stooch, what do you think it should be done on my furball to make it look more like SAS example ?

For starters I think its clumping. I am going to try and feed procedural to hair density to achieve that.

Second thing is hue variation in individual strands.

Anything else ?

rush123
02-25-2008, 09:49 PM
Yes, procedural with a weighted image can help with a 'clumping' likeness I did this during the beta

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/7919/furwetclumpy02kt7.th.png (http://img299.imageshack.us/my.php?image=furwetclumpy02kt7.png)

borisgoreta2000
02-25-2008, 09:54 PM
Can you please explain where and how exactly is procedural applied. I don't know renderer that much and don't know how to apply procedural texture to hair generation.

Wow, this fur looks awesome.

Thanks.

stooch
02-25-2008, 10:24 PM
sorry wegg but i really dont care if you are frustrated or not. my opinions are meant to improve a program i love and if you see it any differently then its your problem. Im not here to be a yes man or to blow smoke up anyones ass, if my views bother you so much, i suggest you change your perspective or just dont read them.

thanks.

I'm at the point. . (yet again) where I'm very frustrated with your negativity stooch. Its a real downer. Can you make an attempt to talk about the software itself and not throw insulting, insinuating remarks around so indiscriminately?

stooch
02-25-2008, 10:26 PM
Stooch, what do you think it should be done on my furball to make it look more like SAS example ?

For starters I think its clumping. I am going to try and feed procedural to hair density to achieve that.

Second thing is hue variation in individual strands.

Anything else ?

yep, the clumping on the fur, the really nice specular highlights. The overall whispiness and a feeling of thinness of the hair :)

im glad that you are taking my crits as they are, instead of being a fanboy like a certain someone :)

stooch
02-25-2008, 10:28 PM
very nice man, you are getting there. What i like about the sasquach hair is the transluscency, do you think you can make the hairs a bit more wispy? thanks!

i would be rocking this myself right now but i have to find someone with an install of XP before i can upgrade the dongle.

Yes, procedural with a weighted image can help with a 'clumping' likeness I did this during the beta

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/7919/furwetclumpy02kt7.th.png (http://img299.imageshack.us/my.php?image=furwetclumpy02kt7.png)

Wegg
02-25-2008, 10:48 PM
sorry wegg but i really dont care if you are frustrated or not. my opinions are meant to improve a program i love and if you see it any differently then its your problem. Im not here to be a yes man or to blow smoke up anyones ass, if my views bother you so much, i suggest you change your perspective or just dont read them.

thanks.

Lets make a scale and you tell me where you honestly see yourself and me.


10.- Loving Messiah and communicating with piers in a constructive way that ignores all faults with the program in an annoying "fanboy" way.

1. - Loving Messiah but attacking anyone who has less talent than yourself and new features that aren't the way you would wish them to be by insinuating people are stupid and anyone who doesn't think so is equally moronic in an attempt to motivate said people to improve.

I personally think I'm somewhere around 8 or 9. I tend to not see things in Messiah that are frustrating and annoying to others because I don't use other software any more. I try not to be but I can't help it. I'm a real "fan boy". Have been for years.

But I think your smashing right up against #1 Stooch. If you don't think your being that way then you may need to think more about the way you word your posts.

stooch
02-25-2008, 10:57 PM
lol. neither description works for me on any scale.

why in the hell did you bring up talent into the picture? why do people always do this? Where did that come from? thats completely out of the blue and uncalled for.

seriously man, get off my nutts i was really hoping you arent one of those guys that puts words into other peoples mouths because of some kind of inferiorty complex. (and i dont and never have implied that im better than anyone, i never do that but people always seem to assume this by themselves)

have you considered that maybe, me using lots of different software packages, gives me a unique perspective that allows me to compare messiah and point out any shortcomings? If you got to LW or modo forums, you can see me being just as critical of faults and always suggesting ways to improve things? Do you think i created the bug tracker because i hate messiah? or the fact that i actively submit bugs and feature requests to LW and modo because im better than someone? or is it because i feel that since im paying for something, maybe its not that unreasonable for me to have some kind of voice in the direction of future development? doesnt the fact that i bought the messiah upgrade mean anything to you? or are you implying that im also insulting myself too? seriously get off the soap box. Im here to talk about messiah, not where you fit on my scale or where i fit on yours. THIS ISNT ABOUT YOU.

do you see me saying that messiah sucks and everyone that uses it is stupid? again where are you getting this?

soemtimes i wish more people would go to college just so that they can get the premadonna out of their system and learn how to take criticism.

Lets make a scale and you tell me where you honestly see yourself and me.


10.- Loving Messiah and communicating with piers in a constructive way that ignores all faults with the program in an annoying "fanboy" way.

1. - Loving Messiah but attacking anyone who has less talent than yourself and new features that aren't the way you would wish them to be by insinuating people are stupid and anyone who doesn't think so is equally moronic in an attempt to motivate said people to improve.

I personally think I'm somewhere around 8 or 9. I tend to not see things in Messiah that are frustrating and annoying to others because I don't use other software any more. I try not to be but I can't help it. I'm a real "fan boy". Have been for years.

But I think your smashing right up against #1 Stooch. If you don't think your being that way then you may need to think more about the way you word your posts.

catizone
02-25-2008, 11:23 PM
For what it is worth, I tend to agree with the general thought behind Weggs question.

Beyond that, do any of the posters who are always trying to get messiah to match something else, post to the other software sights asking them to implement the wonderful and powerful rigging and animation that is is messiah?

But, it isn't even about that. I have patiently watched some of the posts yet again. While I think we are all for improving ANY app, there is an undertone (or expressed directness) of "I won't use it until" or "I use this other program because..."

Fine. I'm certainly okay with that; but just go use the other program. I did NOT stay on the LW forum when messiah came out and keep asking and/or knocking LW because it didn't do what I wanted. I migrated. And again, let me reiterate that I have used LW since the Amiga Toaster days and I think it is an awesome program. However, when messiah came it gave ME what I wanted...an UNLIMITED way to rig, adapt that rig even after animating, and the ability to use expressions which I did not have to become a programmer to use. And that's just the core.

So before the posts start degenerating, I would just suggest that the users who LIKE the software would appreciate more respect in posting negative comments that are thinly disguised statements that imply messiah just isn't there yet. It certainly is. Do we all want more and better....everyday, in EVERY software. I just think we ADVANCE software by asking and not knocking. I would HATE to have to go back to animating in LW. I have chosen messiah. That is MY preference, and I believe the preference of the other messiah users . And in the main, I believe we are very happy with what messiah can do, and look forward to even better things in it.

Best,
Rick

stooch
02-25-2008, 11:36 PM
For what it is worth...
its worth nothing to me. If you made a constructive criticism about messiah or if you explained that maybe im missing something or asking for a feature that already has an analogue in messiah, then it would be worth something. otherwise its just your opinion about my opinion - that has no consequence to you, me or messiah. Fact is, im not here to bash on messiah, which seems to be consistently lost. I think that there are some pretty solid and reasonable observations on my part and the pov that im getting is that you dont like hearing them. well tough cookies, if you are content with what you have then thats your prerogative, however it has no correlation to what i expect out of my tools.


But, it isn't even about that. I have patiently watched some of the posts yet again. While I think we are all for improving ANY app, there is an undertone (or expressed directness) of "I won't use it until" or "I use this other program because..."
Best,
Rick
the fact is that I already paid for the software, "i wont use it until" is irrelevant here, you are missing the point. At the end of the day its about whether i put my money where my mouth is, and clearly i do. So in that case i have made an irrefutable point with my actions. and my motto is, actions speak louder than words. wouldnt you agree?

lanosrep1
02-25-2008, 11:49 PM
Lets take it down a few notches.. starting to feel like the LA riots around here.

Stooch, I am another person that does think you are overstepping.. I understand your frustration.. and hoping Messiah would give you Mayaesque functionality.. it does not currently.

I see you post on several forums here in CGTalk.. and notice a tread with your tone.. I am glad that you are passionate about seeing Messiah improve, but I really don't think you are going about it the right way.. my 2 cnts..

G.

Wegg
02-25-2008, 11:50 PM
"soemtimes i wish more people would go to college just so that they can get the premadonna out of their system and learn how to take criticism." - accusations of character flaws and inferior intelligence

"IMO thats a really half assed way to comb hair. The results are also not very convincing, the hair just doesnt lay naturally along the cats body." - Implications of inferiority of the software based on 1 artists helpful attempts to demonstrate its use. . . further implying his inferiority.

"well i guess "damn smart" is relative, i KNOW that fur doesnt hang down like that on animals" - Obvious implication of you being smarter.


"kind of disgusted to be honest, dont really care whose fault is it, not very professional imo." - implication of Messiah not being professional due to it not somehow working around Hasp's issues.

"oh i see, so because YOU havent heard of anyone that likes vista (liar) i MUST be alone.... riiiiight." - Sarcastic and negative

"p.s. its kind of ironic that people who are willing to put up with messiah and all of its "hiccups" yet are complaining about vista... lol." - Implying character faults to those with differing opinions.

"why even post here then? who cares that you arent impressed? for me 180 bucks for an upgrade is a no brainer. the pricing for a new version is also a no brainer. seriously if you want to be "impressed by features" go get blender." - Attacking someone in a negative way who posted in a way very similar to the way you do.

"like i said, if you want something for nothing, go get blender." - again

"i think you need to look up constructive criticism before you open your mouth." - implying inferior intelligence.

stooch
02-26-2008, 12:04 AM
lol wegg. that post was funny. You will always see what you want to see.

what does that imply about you?

Ulven
02-26-2008, 12:10 AM
I think the reason you sometimes get your intentions misunderstood stooch, is that what one might equate to your "tone of voice", in lack of a better word, can sometimes be percieved by others as kind of angry and perhaps even hostile. I misunderstood you a bit in another thread already this week, and I think others might too. Now since I've read many posts you've made I know that this is really just your form of expression and I can try to read your posts more clearly as the constructive critisism they're intended to be and see if I can pick up good ideas for my own development budget at the same time.
"your opinion about my opinion", as you put it, does matter a bit, because it makes it clearer to the reader that your opinions are intended to be constructive if you phrase them in such a way that you show your good intent through the "tone of voice" I mentioned before. The clearer your intent, the easier it is for people to pick up on your ideas.

With regards to the fur tutorial I made, I show one way of combing that we utilised on Andy's Airplanes. It has the advantage of being quite easy to visualise, relatively quick and very predictable in outcome. It's about 20 minutes long or so, and though it will hardly make anyone into a hair expert overnight, I think that I could show a few starting principles at least. I'm not really an expert on fur, but I helped out get the ferret looking good on andy's.

Mouse combing as it were, isn't in this first build, although we'd no doubt like to see that too, as well as more dynamics, and better cloth in messiah as it grows. Those are good ideas stooch, but they get a bit lost in the message, because of the "tone of voice" I mentioned earlier.

Wegg
02-26-2008, 12:11 AM
I don't know how it can be possible to NOT "see" the inference in your replies and that "implies" that I'm the type of person who would prefer to see you take a different approach to communication on this forum. I don't see that as a bad thing. No need to blow smoke up people's rectums. Just honest open friendly discussion. K?

stooch
02-26-2008, 12:16 AM
"soemtimes i wish more people would go to college just so that they can get the premadonna out of their system and learn how to take criticism." - accusations of you blowing things out of proportions and your lack of ability to accept criticism. College has no impact on your intelligence, only your exposure to knowledge and criticism. I do not take that back and stand by that statement.


"IMO thats a really half assed way to comb hair. The results are also not very convincing, the hair just doesnt lay naturally along the cats body." - DIRECT OPINION that this approach to hair is indeed half assed in comparison to other, superior solutions. Its a criticism aimed at the implementation not the users work. Again, i stand by that statement.

"well i guess "damn smart" is relative, i KNOW that fur doesnt hang down like that on animals" - Obvious statement that what you consider as smart, does not agree with me. I do not think that the solution is smart, infact its very limited and plays to easier execution. Again i stand by that statement and i also implore you to stop putting words in my mouth

"kind of disgusted to be honest, dont really care whose fault is it, not very professional imo." - Direct statement of my opinion that failure to discloe that issue ahead of time is unprofessional on behalf of PMG. I stand by that statement again.

"oh i see, so because YOU havent heard of anyone that likes vista (liar) i MUST be alone.... riiiiight." - Sarcastic and negative. Yep. Replying to a sarcastic and negative comment. whats your point? again i stand by that statement.

"p.s. its kind of ironic that people who are willing to put up with messiah and all of its "hiccups" yet are complaining about vista... lol." - Implying real irony thats obvious to anyone. Wow you are really grasping for straws. lol. Again stand by that statement

"why even post here then? who cares that you arent impressed? for me 180 bucks for an upgrade is a no brainer. the pricing for a new version is also a no brainer. seriously if you want to be "impressed by features" go get blender." - Attacking someone in a negative way who posted in a way very similar to the way you do. - Wrong, I am giving constructive criticism and offering ways to improve the software, there was nothing constructive about the comment i replied to. I stand by that statement again.

"like i said, if you want something for nothing, go get blender." - Yep. See above.

"i think you need to look up constructive criticism before you open your mouth." - implying inferior intelligence - Nope, implying hypocritic statement. The orignal post claimed to be constructive but did not fit the definition. I suggest you look it up as well and stand by the statement again.

stooch
02-26-2008, 12:17 AM
thank you ulven, i agree with your post.

I think the reason you sometimes get your intentions misunderstood stooch, is that what one might equate to your "tone of voice", in lack of a better word, can sometimes be percieved by others as kind of angry and perhaps even hostile. I misunderstood you a bit in another thread already this week, and I think others might too. Now since I've read many posts you've made I know that this is really just your form of expression and I can try to read your posts more clearly as the constructive critisism they're intended to be and see if I can pick up good ideas for my own development budget at the same time.
"your opinion about my opinion", as you put it, does matter a bit, because it makes it clearer to the reader that your opinions are intended to be constructive if you phrase them in such a way that you show your good intent through the "tone of voice" I mentioned before. The clearer your intent, the easier it is for people to pick up on your ideas.

With regards to the fur tutorial I made, I show one way of combing that we utilised on Andy's Airplanes. It has the advantage of being quite easy to visualise, relatively quick and very predictable in outcome. It's about 20 minutes long or so, and though it will hardly make anyone into a hair expert overnight, I think that I could show a few starting principles at least. I'm not really an expert on fur, but I helped out get the ferret looking good on andy's.

Mouse combing as it were, isn't in this first build, although we'd no doubt like to see that too, as well as more dynamics, and better cloth in messiah as it grows. Those are good ideas stooch, but they get a bit lost in the message, because of the "tone of voice" I mentioned earlier.

catizone
02-26-2008, 12:48 AM
"its worth nothing to me."

So only YOUR opinions are valid. This comes thru over and over.

" If you made a constructive criticism about messiah "

I am not in the mindset to criticize messiah. Even when there were things I wanted from LW that were NOT in there, I did not knock the software in the backhanded way that you do. Maybe you truly don't see it, but enough people have posted that THEY see it, so maybe the whole issue isn't just with our perception of what you believe are simply statements.

"otherwise its just your opinion about my opinion - that has no consequence to you, me or messiah. "

If no one's opinion means anything, there is little point to the forum...or life for that matter.

"Fact is, im not here to bash on messiah, which seems to be consistently lost."

I can certainly agree with the last half of the statement. I am not certain about the first half, so I'll wait and see.

"I think that there are some pretty solid and reasonable observations on my part and the pov that im getting is that you dont like hearing them. "

Again, if all we're going to do is jump up and down about what's not here yet, as if the software is unusable in any real way, I think that's an issue.

"well tough cookies, if you are content with what you have then thats your prerogative, however it has no correlation to what i expect out of my tools. "

Again, I don't go bash LW for what it doesn't have even tho' I own two seats of it. Maybe you should just change tools since everything else seems to work so much better in your view. No hard feelings. It may just be how you see it.

"the fact is that I already paid for the software, "i wont use it until" is irrelevant here, you are missing the point. "

I have paid for a lot of software over the years. I really don't intend to list what was not in them even tho' advertised, or what Broadcast Quality meant in their eyes, features that barely worked or did not work in conjunction with anything else you needed them to, etc.
We all have been disappointed by what our personal needs and wants are compared to what shows up in a program or its upgrades. Just happened to me on a piece of 2D software I use. I love it, but the upgrade did not address what I understood was in the works, etc.

I would gently ask that you reflect on what a number of people see as your attitude and moving the goalpost on some issues, such as the fur thing. If you like SAS better, God Bless you, use it. I use messiah, and yes, I do hope to see further things from the hair generator. But when most see an undertone, it is often wise to evaluate and see if our own perspective might just a bit awry.

Best,
Rick

stooch
02-26-2008, 12:52 AM
wow you could have used your time in a better way.

I will quote the most pertinent part of your post:

"its worth nothing to me."


see my post above. ulven summed it up and i replied positively. you are just being combative and are wrong on many points therefore i do not agree with your post and you have wasted your breath. maybe you should compare the way you approached me and how ulven approached me. otherwise i think that you are a hypocrite who gets off on criticizing others via self projection instead of actually applying the very principles you are preaching. :)

p.s. I have no compassion for posters that change the focus of the discussion from a critical analysis of a software to a personal one. its not about bettering me or helping anyone out, you are just enjoying your time on the soap box while derailing the original intent - a better messiah. ( Otherwise u would have pmed me. )

catizone
02-26-2008, 01:15 AM
"wow you could have used your time in a better way. "

Oh, I knew it would be pointless from your perspective, but I felt it needed to be said.

"you are just being combative and are wrong on many points therefore i do not agree with your post and you have wasted your breath."

Perhaps you may realize that many feel the same way about your posts.

"maybe you should compare the way you approached me "

When someone says my comments are worth nothing, I'm not sure how I should approach them. So I just answered what I saw, from my perspective. I also realize that the only perspective that matters is yours and its also the only valid one. The rest who post here obviously have a totally wrong perspective, and I hope we can all change, so we can all be on the same page.

"otherwise i think that you are a hypocrite who gets off on criticizing others via self projection instead of actually applying the very principles you are preaching. "

A hypocrite? How did we get THERE? Self projection..wow. Not applying principles I advocated....

Funny, I thought I put forth a rational discussion, and made an analogy to another software as well. Guess I'm just not advanced enough for these discussions. Of course, that probably won't stop me.

Best,
Rick

Tama
02-26-2008, 01:19 AM
erm... How about more fur pictures and fur talk and less of the other back and forth "stuff"?
I won't even bother to read past a few of the back and forth volleys.

That last curl of hair looked pretty good to me.

Anyone up for seeing if messiah fur can replicate the look of this cat's fur?

http://home.comcast.net/%7Etamapig/clownkitty.jpg

stooch
02-26-2008, 01:38 AM
When someone says my comments are worth nothing, I'm not sure how I should approach them. So I just answered what I saw, from my perspective. I also realize that the only perspective that matters is yours and its also the only valid one. The rest who post here obviously have a totally wrong perspective, and I hope we can all change, so we can all be on the same page.
Best,
Rick

your comments are irrational and therefore are not worth my time. sorry. You claim that no ones opinions matter but my own, funny, considering i just agreed with ulven in a previous post. hmm. Like i said you are turning a rational thread into a piss fest and i dont appreciate it so im treating your comments as hostile. like i said, practice what you preach and you will be taken seriously otherwise its just hot air.

You are wrong in your assumptions thats why you arent making the impact you re looking for. Ulven made correct assumptions and i agreed with him.

stooch
02-26-2008, 01:42 AM
lol agreed. here is shmiggle. my cat after a run in with an uknown animal.

note the distribution of fur, its obvious that the current "lay" technique is inadequate to capture the kind of distribution i am looking for and painting something like that without OGL feedback would be a very painful experience.

http://stooch.net/gallery/d/995-2/000_3335.jpg

erm... How about more fur pictures and fur talk and less of the other back and forth "stuff"?
I won't even bother to read past a few of the back and forth volleys.

That last curl of hair looked pretty good to me.

Anyone up for seeing if messiah fur can replicate the look of this cat's fur?

My Fault
02-26-2008, 01:43 AM
Like i said you are turning a rational thread into a piss fest and i dont appreciate it so im treating your comments as hostile. like i said, practice what you preach and you will be taken seriously otherwise its just hot air.

It would be awesome if you would also follow that sage advice as well stooch. And if for some reason you don't think your comments come off as hostile, keep reading your quote over and over again until it sinks in.

stooch
02-26-2008, 01:45 AM
It would be awesome if you would also follow that sage advice as well stooch. And if for some reason you don't think your comments come off as hostile, keep reading your quote over and over again until it sinks in.

you just made a hostile comment that has nothing to do with my crits of messiah and again trying to blame me for having a direct approach (which i value and pride myself on). you failed to make the impact you seek. move along.

catizone
02-26-2008, 02:02 AM
"you just made a hostile comment that has nothing to do with my crits of messiah and again trying to blame me for having a direct approach (which i value and pride myself on). you failed to make the impact you seek. move along."

Well, I guess there is a subtlety one can miss there. One can be direct without being insulting. Pride? Hmmmm.....

Brian, it is clear that some people refuse to see. Nothing is going to change. We know what we see, and he knows what he sees. Obviously the group is all wrong.

That's fine, because like stooch, I know what I know.

Best,
Rick

stooch
02-26-2008, 02:09 AM
hey dont get upset that you cannot communicate in the way that you preach. Clearly you failed where ulven has succeeded, you can keep on babbling all you want but i would like to keep things on topic, if you dont mind.

"you just made a hostile comment that has nothing to do with my crits of messiah and again trying to blame me for having a direct approach (which i value and pride myself on). you failed to make the impact you seek. move along."

Well, I guess there is a subtlety one can miss there. One can be direct without being insulting. Pride? Hmmmm.....

Brian, it is clear that some people refuse to see. Nothing is going to change. We know what we see, and he knows what he sees. Obviously the group is all wrong.

That's fine, because like stooch, I know what I know.

Best,
Rick

My Fault
02-26-2008, 02:43 AM
you just made a hostile comment that has nothing to do with my crits of messiah and again trying to blame me for having a direct approach (which i value and pride myself on). you failed to make the impact you seek. move along.

Actually stooch, I pretty much impacted exactly as I planned and proved what I feared. Yeah ya let me down, but I'm certainly not surprised by it. When you attack someone and are rude, it is because you have something important to say and we all misunderstand your point... when someone is rude to you, the tears flow freely and everyone else is wrong. I'd try to take this further, but you have some issue that keeps you from admiting being wrong, so I'm not wasting anymore energy. And oh yeah I'll move along when I feel like, your constant hostile comments won't move me either way.

So on to the matter at hand. Roy had done some really nice work on the fur during the beta. Big thanks to him, Wegg and Ulven for imparting some of what they learned through the way. Fori did a great job in putting this together for Andy's and would love to hear more about future plans to extend the tool further. Is there any particular direction or plans. I'm sure we would all love to hear. Fori? Fred?

Wegg
02-26-2008, 02:44 AM
lol agreed. here is shmiggle. my cat after a run in with an uknown animal.

note the distribution of fur, its obvious that the current "lay" technique is inadequate to capture the kind of distribution i am looking for and painting something like that without OGL feedback would be a very painful experience.


Actually, that cat would be fairly easy. You would just hang it from its nose for a start. That would get about 60% of it right. Then you just grab the geomoetry around the ears and twist them back so they are pointing back like it is scared. http://www.allearsreading.org/images/scared-cat.jpg
You will probably find that once you do that, you will be done. You will get all that interesting "twist" around the area in-front of the ears and the bunching up around the forehead. If you feel you need to make more adjustments you just go back into the target model and twist. Y is always down so if you want a cow lick. . . just twist. When I did the ferret for Andy's I also opened up his mouth a bit so the fur didn't ever lay too close on his chin. Going back and forth is as easy and natural as generating new endomoprhs. Give it a try. Nothing inadequate or painful about it.

stooch
02-26-2008, 02:48 AM
see my response to ulven.

learn.

p.s. its not that im unwilling to admit that im wrong, its just that you arent correct :) im not here to accomodate your sensibilities especially when you go about it in the wrong way. enjoy your soapbox :)


Actually stooch, I pretty much impacted exactly as I planned and proved what I feared.

stooch
02-26-2008, 02:50 AM
can you make an example since its easy? would love to see what you mean in practice

thanks.

Actually, that cat would be fairly easy. You would just hang it from its nose for a start. That would get about 60% of it right. Then you just grab the geomoetry around the ears and twist them back so they are pointing back like it is scared. http://www.allearsreading.org/images/scared-cat.jpg
You will probably find that once you do that, you will be done. You will get all that interesting "twist" around the area in-front of the ears and the bunching up around the forehead. If you feel you need to make more adjustments you just go back into the target model and twist. Y is always down so if you want a cow lick. . . just twist. When I did the ferret for Andy's I also opened up his mouth a bit so the fur didn't ever lay too close on his chin. Going back and forth is as easy and natural as generating new endomoprhs. Give it a try. Nothing inadequate or painful about it.

My Fault
02-26-2008, 03:35 AM
see my response to ulven.

learn.

p.s. its not that im unwilling to admit that im wrong, its just that you arent correct :) im not here to accomodate your sensibilities especially when you go about it in the wrong way. enjoy your soapbox :)

Ok, we agree to disagree, no hard feelins then. Now lets see some fur! :)

So, seeing how I was on the animatin/renderpreppin side of Andy's I never really got to touch on the fur and hair generatin part of our furry little ferret so I would love to see more examples of how to go about it. Do you use just one morph to lay out the hair, or can you use multiple morphs for different areas? I gotta be honest, combing out fur, more like say Shave or A:M's implementation makes a lot more sense to me. Is it the best way, that I don't know, but it sure seems more straightforward.

Mike RB
02-26-2008, 03:36 AM
For the translucency effect of Sas I would recommend the way Joe Alter used to (still does I think) do it with shave and a haircut. Increase your thread count and derease the opacity of the strands. For example if you had 2000 strands, make it 10000 and make them all 20% opaque. That will give you the look you want. I have no idea if this would be prohibitive for rendering in messiah. But it's a technique that works. 20%-33% opaque is a decent place to start, and more or less opaque will make the hair too wirey or whispy. Good luck and please post your results!

stooch
02-26-2008, 03:41 AM
yep thats an important point. i have no hard feelings and never did. even now. im used to people criticising me all the time so i developed a thick skin. that and going to college also helped (they spend alot of time on critique, thats why i brought it up, not because i think you are stupid wegg but because it really is a good place to get all that stuff out of your system) But i guess you are soo busy nitpicking my tone, anything goes right?

I think that more people should develop a thick skin, especially in this industry, you are only really hurting yourself in the long run. all this aggravation over nothing (plus i think that people come across whiny, and when that happens ill just start toying with you lol) I can think of MUCH worse things to say in terms of attacking someone directly and i havent even done a fraction of the like. I dont get it why people hold me to such a high standard, im just a squirrel eating a pigeon afterall. But i guess this is serious business.

http://wallstreetjackass.typepad.com/raptureready/images/2007/05/02/serious_cat_2.jpg

Ok, we agree to disagree, no hard feelins then. Now lets see some fur! :)

So, seeing how I was on the animatin/renderpreppin side of Andy's I never really got to touch on the fur and hair generatin part of our furry little ferret so I would love to see more examples of how to go about it. Do you use just one morph to lay out the hair, or can you use multiple morphs for different areas? I gotta be honest, combing out fur, more like say Shave or A:M's implementation makes a lot more sense to me. Is it the best way, that I don't know, but it sure seems more straightforward.

catizone
02-26-2008, 04:08 AM
"hey dont get upset that you cannot communicate in the way that you preach. Clearly you failed where ulven has succeeded,"

Translation: Ulven danced around as politely as could be instead of being as direct as you are, and that was his success. While you are permitted to be as strident and somewhat rude in your comments and delivery, no one else is permitted the same luxury. If one can't play on a level field, one shouldn't play at all.

" you can keep on babbling all you want "

Again, when you babble we are supposed to answer. When we answer, we are accusd of babbling.

"but i would like to keep things on topic, if you dont mind."

Then let's do that...and in a straightforward way from this point, okay?

Best,
Rick

Wegg
02-26-2008, 05:06 AM
Translation: Ulven danced around as politely as could be instead of being as direct as you are, and that was his success. While you are permitted to be as strident and somewhat rude in your comments and delivery, no one else is permitted the same luxury. If one can't play on a level field, one shouldn't play at all.

Have to agree with Rick here Stooch. Your not playing by your own rules.

BTW. This insistance on talking about college. . . and then implications that I needed to go to develop a "thicker skin" is complete bull$hit. The "critiques" you get in school are nothing compared to what you get in the "real world". Impossible deadlines and demanding/clueless clients make what little they teach you in school laughable. I most definetly learn't more my first year AFTER my 4 YEARS at Univisrty than I did in Uni.

And you know Rick here? That you are so cleverly dismissing? This dude has been doing this . . . with client after client, year after year. . . longer than you have been alive. He TEACHES in one of those schools you are touting.

Please understand our frustrations with your methods of communication are not attacks. And they are not a sign of some kind of weekness or lack of experience on our part. It is with sincere concern and frustration over your impact on our community.

notlongago
02-26-2008, 05:30 AM
Wegg,

He does not have a method of communication at all that is the problem. He bullies and bullshits. He has self esteem problems clearly. We are yet to see any kind of contribution given by stooch to Messiah community. He also likes to waste times of people whom he does not give a damn. Sure enough he has a lot of time to spend on forums.

Mike RB
02-26-2008, 05:36 AM
Here is a 2.6M polymesh (out of shave standalone) rendered in modo with and without transparency... The 1st image used strands that were 75% transparent...

http://www.elementvfx.com/WebDemo/modo_fur.jpg

http://www.elementvfx.com/WebDemo/modo_fur_solid.jpg

catizone
02-26-2008, 10:41 AM
Wegg wrote:BTW. This insistance on talking about college. . . and then implications that I needed to go to develop a "thicker skin" is complete bull$hit. The "critiques" you get in school are nothing compared to what you get in the "real world". Impossible deadlines and demanding/clueless clients make what little they teach you in school laughable. I most definetly learn't more my first year AFTER my 4 YEARS at Univisrty than I did in Uni.

This is so true. Even in a school dedicated to an animation curriculum, it mostly prepares and develops someone. And yes, there is that top 20% that really bust their butts and come out far better than "entry level". However, for the most part, I find it much like the martial arts. When you reach black belt in a good school, your sensei will tell you that all it really means is that you are teachable. You have a foundation. Real progress then begins.

The same happens with schooling. I have heard the wise students come back and tell me how much they have learned while on the job, a definite result of their being able to build on a foundation. I have had others come back, and tell how much MORE they have learned on the job, insinuating they learned nothing while they were a student. There is so much we know that they are not ready for but they don't understand. They have to crawl before they can run, and there are only so many hours in any curriculum. And absolutely yes, clients can be completely oblivious, unrealistically demanding, ignorant, abusive, etc. and one has to deal with that in a proper and professional way.

Although they were not taken that way, I know that our comments were intended to help someone realize that "direct" can have different shadings. My experience on Andy's was that practically everyone who critiqued anything did so in a way that professionally said "might it be better if...", of "how about..." , or even "that's just not working..." without it seeming like an attack.

My goal here, and others as well, was to try and help someone realize how their mode of communication is viewed. And for the main reason that when someone's "direct" is viewed as everyone else's "difficult", it becomes harder and harder to find work. Companies just will not have a negative person on their crews because it's like a chariot with one horse pulling to the side. You just can't get where you need to go....and often pulling some of the weaker members to the side as well. There have been a few people over the years that I just would never hire back for a project. Real jobs are demanding enough and one does not need to worry about a fight within the project because the project generally has enough of it's own battles.

Back to the fur discussion, I really do hope that Fori is able to implement a way to flock sprites with it...or give us a way to do feathers. (The tiny ones obviously... as larger ones need to be specifically modeled.)

Best,
Rick

stooch
02-26-2008, 12:54 PM
"
Then let's do that...and in a straightforward way from this point, okay?

Best,
Rick

and yet you write another novel on the next page...
blah blah blah.


best,
stooch.

stooch
02-26-2008, 12:57 PM
so lets see, you are complaining that im direct and rude and then go ahead and talk about my points being bullshit etc. just goes to show taht maybe you should check yourself, your tone is exactly like mine as far as im concerned, infact all of the complainers here have been using tone EXACTLY like mine the entire time, the only person taht didnt was ulven. but i really dont mind, its fine with me as long as you keep your trap shut about personal crap and focus on the topic at hand. :)

p.s. i think that all your points so far have been bullshit too.

cheers.

Have to agree with Rick here Stooch. Your not playing by your own rules.

BTW. This insistance on talking about college. . . and then implications that I needed to go to develop a "thicker skin" is complete bull$hit. The "critiques" you get in school are nothing compared to what you get in the "real world". Impossible deadlines and demanding/clueless clients make what little they teach you in school laughable. I most definetly learn't more my first year AFTER my 4 YEARS at Univisrty than I did in Uni.

And you know Rick here? That you are so cleverly dismissing? This dude has been doing this . . . with client after client, year after year. . . longer than you have been alive. He TEACHES in one of those schools you are touting.

Please understand our frustrations with your methods of communication are not attacks. And they are not a sign of some kind of weekness or lack of experience on our part. It is with sincere concern and frustration over your impact on our community.

catizone
02-26-2008, 01:07 PM
The wonderful thing about life is that each person is entitled to their own opinion.

All opinions are not necessarily based in truth. When contrary points of view are present, there are only two possibilities. A)Both are wrong. B) One is right and the other wrong

Logic dictates that contrary things cannot be true. Obviously, I must have been wrong. I apologize for trying to be helpful.

I'm done.

stooch
02-26-2008, 01:16 PM
The wonderful thing about life is that each person is entitled to their own opinion.

All opinions are not necessarily based in truth. When contrary points of view are present, there are only two possibilities. A)Both are wrong. B) One is right and the other wrong

Logic dictates that contrary things cannot be true. Obviously, I must have been wrong. I apologize for trying to be helpful.

I'm done.

finally! definitelly not too soon either. (in my opinion)

although i disagree, i feel taht its possible for both opinions to be wrong or right. but i guess for some people its black and white.

kungfudork
02-26-2008, 01:19 PM
wow....this thread got crazy. I was hoping to find more info about how the fur thing works, but it seems to be a bit side tracked.

after reading all of this, i have a question for stooch. i'm not trying to come across rude or sarcastic, this is an honest question. Why do you feel so strongly that you know exactly what would make messiah better? Users are working with the hair system they have and trying to learn from each other the process and yet you seem to tell of it's shortcomings and want to know why it isn't like some other program. i assume you use these other programs and they get the job done for you, so why so intense about the fact that messiah's doesn't work like them? i would love to see some of your fur work in these other programs to understand what the differences you are talking about. i see what you are talking about in the pictures of the cat, can you show me how you accomplish that in one of the other programs?

thanks,
KFD

Ulven
02-26-2008, 01:23 PM
Lets stop the various challenges to fistycuffs there mon amis.
Topic is Messiah 3.0 fur ball. Please disregard not on topic posts.

stooch
02-26-2008, 01:24 PM
sure. I would like to see proof tha you are actually a cg artist though and worthy of judging my fur abilities by displaying your work first.

(its a dumb request i know, but im hoping that it will allow you to put your own request into perspective)

wow....this thread got crazy. I was hoping to find more info about how the fur thing works, but it seems to be a bit side tracked.

after reading all of this, i have a question for stooch. i'm not trying to come across rude or sarcastic, this is an honest question. Why do you feel so strongly that you know exactly what would make messiah better? Users are working with the hair system they have and trying to learn from each other the process and yet you seem to tell of it's shortcomings and want to know why it isn't like some other program. i assume you use these other programs and they get the job done for you, so why so intense about the fact that messiah's doesn't work like them? i would love to see some of your fur work in these other programs to understand what the differences you are talking about. i see what you are talking about in the pictures of the cat, can you show me how you accomplish that in one of the other programs?

thanks,
KFD

kungfudork
02-26-2008, 01:39 PM
everyone post there work freely on here, why would you feel the need i should be worthy of judging your work. i don't want to judge anyone's work, i wanted to understand your points about messiah's fur. i have never used any type of fur, so i know nothing about it. i have no problem showing you i'm a Cg artist, not sure why it matters, but. i never said i was a great artist and wasn't questioning your abilities, sorry if it came across like that.....it wasn't a challenge.

my latest demo reel is on the frontpage of my site:
www.kungfudork.com (http://www.kungfudork.com/)

KFD

catizone
02-26-2008, 02:25 PM
"sure. I would like to see proof tha you are actually a cg artist though and worthy of judging my fur abilities by displaying your work first."

******

Kungfudork,

As you very well know, there are Masters....and from your training, you also know that we must keep proper place in mind. A Master only demonstrates for those who are at the same level.

Best,
Rick

notlongago
02-26-2008, 02:31 PM
There is a great parallel between Stooch`s nasty words and his cgtalk avatar.

lanosrep1
02-26-2008, 05:18 PM
Finally someone posted something remotely on Topic!

Great looking render (top one)... have you tried to render that in Messiah.. (the polymesh?)

Nice to see there are a few of us who still have a shave dongle.. (me too).. Now there is an app that was sooo this close to the mark.. then went away.. shame really..

Man would I love to see Messiah able to render shave files.. the dynamics were outrageous... and the renders spectacular.. (well at least on a few of the mutlitude of versions.. anyway)...

LOL..

Do tell more Michael.. I'll have to dust off my shave dongle again and test too..

Thanks,
G.

stooch
02-26-2008, 07:42 PM
any reason why you felt the need to leave this out of my quote?

Its blatantly obvious that you counsciously went and erased the part of my post that invalidated whatever point you were trying to make... how about ending the pissing contest? mkaay? its starting to get a bit pathetic :)

(its a dumb request i know, but im hoping that it will allow you to put your own request into perspective)

"sure. I would like to see proof tha you are actually a cg artist though and worthy of judging my fur abilities by displaying your work first."

******

Kungfudork,

As you very well know, there are Masters....and from your training, you also know that we must keep proper place in mind. A Master only demonstrates for those who are at the same level.

Best,
Rick

catizone
02-26-2008, 07:59 PM
<"Any reason why you felt the need to leave this out of my quote? Its blatantly obvious that you counsciously went and erased the part of my post that invalidated whatever point you were trying to make... how about ending the pissing contest? mkaay? its starting to get a bit pathetic >


What is blatantly obvious is your insult to Dieter...but you missed that.......again. How you keep missing what you are saying is beyond us all. What I left out "(its a dumb request i know, but im hoping that it will allow you to put your own request into perspective)" was irrelevant, as well as a second insult to Dieter.

Nothing I left out invalidated anything. But, again, I realize that only you have valid points and opinions.

When someone is insulted, I feel moved to stand up for them.

Best,
Rick

rush123
02-26-2008, 08:04 PM
Can you please explain where and how exactly is procedural applied. I don't know renderer that much and don't know how to apply procedural texture to hair generation.

Wow, this fur looks awesome..

borisgoreta2000, I’ve started another thread to talk about mine and others techniques for working with fur, I’m trying to move it away from a basic sphere (though most of my tests are spheres :) ), so people can easily see ‘self shadowing’ etc, please feel free to make posts in there.

stooch
02-26-2008, 08:15 PM
What is blatantly obvious is your insult to Dieter...but you missed that.......again. How you keep missing what you are saying is beyond us all. What I left out "(its a dumb request i know, but im hoping that it will allow you to put your own request into perspective)" was irrelevant, as well as a second insult to Dieter.
Best,
Rick

bullshit, if it really was an insult you would have left it in there. you are a child. lol

and its not "us" its you. and its not you trying to change me, its you enjoying your 5 minutes of fame on your soap box. cause if you really wanted to change me, you would have taken i it up with pm. this is probably the most attention you are going to get in your CG career. so enjoy it while it lasts. :) and efven though im no master, i guess relatively speaking from your POV i can understand why you would feel that i am.

MarkInTx
02-26-2008, 08:16 PM
Who moderates the forum?

This thread should be locked.

It quickly went from Asking about fur balls to coughing them up...

TylerAZambori
02-26-2008, 08:31 PM
Who moderates the forum?

This thread should be locked.

It quickly went from Asking about fur balls to coughing them up...

I've got one for Stooch, and I'm not posting it privately because I don't think
anything will make any difference either way:

http://tinyurl.com/2o73v4

Don't Bite the Hook: Finding Freedom from Anger, Resentment, and Other Destructive Emotions [AUDIOBOOK] (Audio CD)
by Pema Chodron (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/102-1251482-8638525?%5Fencoding=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=Pema%20Chodron)


better than therapy, doesn't require belief in anything. There.

See, I even managed to refrain from saying what I really think,
and that's saying something.

And yes please lock the thread.

Ulven
02-26-2008, 08:38 PM
bullshit, if it really was an insult you would have left it in there. you are a child. lol

and its not "us" its you. and its not you trying to change me, its you enjoying your 5 minutes of fame on your soap box. cause if you really wanted to change me, you would have taken i it up with pm. this is probably the most attention you are going to get in your CG career. so enjoy it while it lasts. :) and efven though im no master, i guess relatively speaking from your POV i can understand why you would feel that i am.

Stooch, this is by far and away out of line. I would strongly urge that you moderate yourself now so that others do not have to.

rush123
02-26-2008, 08:39 PM
I've got one for Stooch, and I'm not posting it privately because I don't think
anything will make any difference either way:

http://tinyurl.com/2o73v4

Don't Bite the Hook: Finding Freedom from Anger, Resentment, and Other Destructive Emotions [AUDIOBOOK] (Audio CD)
by Pema Chodron (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/102-1251482-8638525?%5Fencoding=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=Pema%20Chodron)


better than therapy, doesn't require belief in anything. There.

See, I even managed to refrain from saying what I really think,
and that's saying something.

And yes please lock the thread.

Is this appropriate after the comment you made to me on another thread? Lets all refrain and get back on topic

R

stooch
02-26-2008, 09:05 PM
Stooch, this is by far and away out of line. I would strongly urge that you moderate yourself now so that others do not have to.

lol this thread has been out of line for the last 2 pages. :)

im mrerely responding to antagonizing posts. once the antagonizing posts stop, i stop as well :)

catizone
02-26-2008, 09:15 PM
"and its not "us" its you. and its not you trying to change me, its you enjoying your 5 minutes of fame on your soap box. cause if you really wanted to change me, you would have taken i it up with pm. this is probably the most attention you are going to get in your CG career. so enjoy it while it lasts. :) and efven though im no master, i guess relatively speaking from your POV i can understand why you would feel that i am."


Thanks, I really needed a good laugh to end my day.

YES, PLEASE DELETE THIS THREAD...DON'T JUST LOCK IT!

Best,
Rick

rush123
02-26-2008, 09:43 PM
Here is a 2.6M polymesh (out of shave standalone) rendered in modo with and without transparency... The 1st image used strands that were 75% transparent...

http://www.elementvfx.com/WebDemo/modo_fur.jpg

http://www.elementvfx.com/WebDemo/modo_fur_solid.jpg

What I couldn’t see was the soft tapered ends, or is it me? Here is quick sample of the fur capabilities from messiah 3 hopefully showing the soft tapered ends.

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/3429/forifursample02yy7.th.jpg (http://img114.imageshack.us/my.php?image=forifursample02yy7.jpg)

R

sadicus
02-26-2008, 10:49 PM
well while some on the forum enjoy a good text based assalt
....I'm still waiting for my MSP3 download!

Thanks to all for posting the images, i know nothing about the use of the fur in messiah, so i really appreciate the tutorials.