PDA

View Full Version : 3.0 great hair generation! But........


operaguy
02-23-2008, 06:35 PM
Hello, I have a previous version of Messiah although I ceased exploration of it. (Yes, I scrambled around and found the dongle!). The upgrade offer is very attractive on the possibility I will regain interest.

Why did my interest cool? No hair. Wow, now we have it. I just watched all three tutorials on the hair, and am convinced the hair generation functionality is extrememly advanced, with full shader support down to the strand level and many controls over length, taper, kink, curl, density, etc.. Terrific.

But what about animation of hair. If I have a human mesh model and build fantastic hair, what is the workflow therafter for animation? In many/most applications, you just animate the character, set the gravity/damping for the hair, add forces such as wind, and indicate collision choices, then run a simulation. Voila, animated hair.

There is nothing on the website about this and no finished demo animation of, for instance, a human walking along, stopping, shaking head, letting it settle, all with collision detection and realistic reaction to gravity and with no strands-thru-mesh issues.

Can anyone comment if Messiah 3.0 has fully animateable hair in this way or equivalent?

Thank You

::::: Opera :::::

rush123
02-23-2008, 07:14 PM
It wasn't possible to make a vid tute or demo file for every part of messiah 3 upgrade. The hair/fur tues are to get people started, and help to get users up to speed. As previously stated

“In terms of dynamic/forces you have a ‘gravity’ force which is animateable, you also can make a ‘combing group’ made of say 3 nulls or metaeffector which again you can animate. Also you have the fantastic ‘expression’ system which also can be used as required.”

Ulven has just released a script ‘trail plugin’ to help with animating hair and other things. There isn’t a ‘animate hair’ button (yet anyway) but it doesn’t mean its not possible, just a bit of thought and application. As I recall you are one of the guys who call apply ‘thought & application’ to challenges.

R

Ulven
02-23-2008, 07:23 PM
There isn't full collision detection and dynamics yet. There are however a few ways to animate hair, one is with nulls, another is with gravity dynamics which is currently already there, the third is with weights. Hopefully we'll have more dynamics in later builds. Still early days, eh?

TylerAZambori
02-23-2008, 07:40 PM
It wasn't possible to make a vid tute or demo file for every part of messiah 3 upgrade. The hair/fur tues are to get people started, and help to get users up to speed. As previously stated

“In terms of dynamic/forces you have a ‘gravity’ force which is animateable, you also can make a ‘combing group’ made of say 3 nulls or metaeffector which again you can animate. Also you have the fantastic ‘expression’ system which also can be used as required.”

Ulven has just released a script ‘trail plugin’ to help with animating hair and other things. There isn’t a ‘animate hair’ button (yet anyway) but it doesn’t mean its not possible, just a bit of thought and application. As I recall you are one of the guys who call apply ‘thought & application’ to challenges.

R

No animate hair button? You know, this is part of what I;m talking about, about
basic respect, and the lack of it. Oh wait, I forgot who I' m talking to.

PS: That's basic respect, not professional respect. Do we have any around here?

operaguy
02-23-2008, 07:45 PM
>>As I recall you are one of the guys who call apply ‘thought & application’ to challenges<<

Wow thanks and I am suprised you remember me!

Yes, I would not care if the solution were indeed not like the approach of other apps, as long as one can "get there!"

combing groups made of say 3 nulls or
metaeffector which again you can animate.
‘expression’ system
weights

Ok. I think there is no way to ask if these things can currently "get you there," is there? I'd have to plunge in and learn those other approaches.

I appreciate the replies and perspective.

::::: Opera :::::

operaguy
02-23-2008, 07:46 PM
One critical question however....

Given the current tools listed, can one proactively prevent the animated hair strands from penetrating the mesh?

::::: Opera :::::

rush123
02-23-2008, 07:52 PM
TylerAZambori is was not my intension to be disrespectful in any way to Opera, who I do believe knows my ‘English sense of humor’. I have talk to Opera on irc before and he knows me, (I hope it’s the same guy) So it was not disrespect by English humor.

R

operaguy
02-23-2008, 08:02 PM
I was not offended, but if my skin were a little thinner I might have been!

My counter is that I am "not a make-art-button" kind of fellow.

rush we may have spoken before; there is another poster on CGSociety called "opera" and I am not him.

I am basically a story-teller looking for animation solutions below the MaxMaya threshold but above the Poser/Carrara level.

::: Opera :::

rush123
02-23-2008, 08:06 PM
Oops, sorry the other Opera is from France and I have just realized you are from the States from your signature.

R

TylerAZambori
02-23-2008, 08:12 PM
I was not offended, but if my skin were a little thinner I might have been!

My counter is that I am "not a make-art-button" kind of fellow.

rush we may have spoken before; there is another poster on CGSociety called "opera" and I am not him.

I am basically a story-teller looking for animation solutions below the MaxMaya threshold but above the Poser/Carrara level.

::: Opera :::

ok then...but you know saying "there is no *whatever* button" is a very common
insult, and it's not just English. This forum would be a happier place without it.

catizone
02-23-2008, 10:27 PM
Isn't the "animate hair" right under the "animate character" expression in the expressions tab?
I haven't found the "animate whatever" command yet. Maybe that one is new in Ver 3...I'll go check....

Best,
Rick

stooch
02-23-2008, 11:42 PM
ok then...but you know saying "there is no *whatever* button" is a very common
insult, and it's not just English. This forum would be a happier place without it.

actually its not an insult its called sarcasm, if your skin is too thin its generally considered "your problem"

cheers.

p.s. didnt see anything insulting here.

MarkInTx
02-24-2008, 03:02 AM
p.s. didnt see anything insulting here.

Nor I... and more importantly, Opera didn't see anything insulting, either.

Nichod
02-24-2008, 03:48 AM
Isn't the "animate hair" right under the "animate character" expression in the expressions tab?
I haven't found the "animate whatever" command yet. Maybe that one is new in Ver 3...I'll go check....

Best,
Rick

hehe. funny.

Parsec3d
02-24-2008, 04:59 AM
not insulted either...

(well I would be more insulted if we on fact had that button) LoL...

dobermunk
02-24-2008, 10:07 AM
Well then, I'm insulted. Dammit.
Where's my dongle!

(Oh yeah... the "send code" button)

opera
02-24-2008, 06:51 PM
Hi, I am the "real" OPERA ... from France.

Hey Operaguy, can you change your login ? It's confusing , I am using this name since along time now. People know me under this alias. very anyoing

Thanks


Opera

TylerAZambori
02-26-2008, 06:47 AM
actually its not an insult its called sarcasm, if your skin is too thin its generally considered "your problem"

cheers.

p.s. didnt see anything insulting here.


Sarcasm is not a form of encomium. One does not
use sarcasm with people one admires and wishes to make
friends with, got it?

So, Thank you, I wasn't looking for advice in that area, from you!

operaguy
02-26-2008, 12:06 PM
What the hell kind of forum is this?

I come here with a legitimate inquiry about the capabilities of Messiah in order to make a decision to upgrade or not.

One guy throws out a random 'make art button' comment, which was uncalled for. I brush it off in order to get at the topic. But no, you people can't leave it alone. You spend your time counterpunching each other over the propriety of it and won't let it go.

I get mistaken for someone else who turns out to have 85 posts to my 22 and joined CGS a few months after me, and that person comes to this thread with nothing useful but to say he is the REAL "Opera" and is annoyed that I exist.

Meanwhile, the counterpunching continues all around.

Well, I am the REAL operaguy, long known veteran in a different corner of the CG world than this ridiculous place, with 3000 posts on Renderosity and 1000 at DAZ forums. I am NOT changing my screen name.

You people need to get a life.

::::: Opera :::::
online as "Operaguy" on many forums since 1989

I suggest you all read this:
Be courteous and polite. Show respect to the opinions and feelings of others. Use of the forums is a privilege, not a right. Engage your brain before your mouth. You are responsible for your own words and any harm they may cause. Don't dilute the forums with irrelevant and unnecessary fluff. CGTalk is a professional, moderated forum. It's a place to talk about all things related to computer graphics.

dobermunk
02-26-2008, 12:24 PM
we all seriously need to chill out and bring each other the respect AT LEAST of innocent until proven guilty

@ operaguy: sorry that the issue wasn't formulated as a question or offer to clarify identity
this community has been - at least up to the latest relaese activity - wonderfully contribution-oriented and helpful, with minor lapses. I fear that everyone's thin-skinned at the moment. Bear with us.

I hope to get some of my hair tests from the beta phase up and re-rendered (I seem to have lost them). rush, wegg and ulven are the masters in this regard and have each contributed a bit. I hope their information has been able to get you further

operaguy
02-26-2008, 12:35 PM
Yes, I did manage to find out hard information, with two behind the scenes email exchanges, viewing of several new Messiah videos and a general combing of the new features list.

I have a high opinion of the new hair module so far. Most intriguing. I look forward to your hair animation examples. At this point I don't think I can plunge into Messiah because the hair may not have all the deployment tools it needs for actual simulation, with collision, on human models wearing flowing hair.

This is not a emotionally loaded opinion, only one of practicallity. I'd love it if you could prove me mistaken in my assessment.

Given the upside potential here, I am still considering upgrading at the $189 price point to get in on the hair module. The reason I hang in there is because I consider Messiah's animation tools very attractive.

::::: Opera :::::

stooch
02-26-2008, 02:02 PM
Sarcasm is not a form of encomium. One does not
use sarcasm with people one admires and wishes to make
friends with, got it?

So, Thank you, I wasn't looking for advice in that area, from you!

oooh ok! my bad, i wasnt aware taht i admired you. sorry.

catizone
02-26-2008, 02:24 PM
Operaguy,

The "there is no make whatever button" comment (which was not mine) was not seen by me and most as any insult, altho' someone took it that way. I have heard that comment MANY times throughout the development of cg technology, and it was never a slam, but just a resolution to there being no shortcut or easy way to achieve some particular effect.

MY comments were simply a joke, as we all make, and I thought that was obvious. If it came across differently to you, I apologize, as that was not MY intent. Generally, I have always found messiah and LW community to be very friendly and helpful. We currently seem to be struggling. Sometimes struggle is beneficial, making us stronger. Other times, it is just detrimental.

*************************************************
Stooch wrote: my bad, i wasnt aware taht i admired you. sorry.
*************************************************
Again.........?

operaguy
02-26-2008, 02:28 PM
Why don't you all make a communal film, as the Blender people did? That might bring you together.

catizone
02-26-2008, 02:29 PM
We did...it was called Andy's Airplanes.

We are mostly all together...

TylerAZambori
02-26-2008, 02:49 PM
We did...it was called Andy's Airplanes.

We are mostly all together...

that was not a communal film. Sorrym but it wasn't.

TylerAZambori
02-26-2008, 02:51 PM
oooh ok! my bad, i wasnt aware taht i admired you. sorry.

Ok, you will get private MY answer to thAt.

catizone
02-26-2008, 02:52 PM
No, technically it wasn't. But I would bet it MOST of the people who like and use messiah who were available were on the production....from what I saw.

In the sense of a communal film including everyone...no. I am not sure that would work unless everyone was pulling in the same direction.

Best,
Rick

TylerAZambori
02-26-2008, 03:00 PM
No, technically it wasn't. But I would bet it MOST of the people who like and use messiah who were available were on the production....from what I saw.

In the sense of a communal film including everyone...no. I am not sure that would work unless everyone was pulling in the same direction.

Best,
Rick

Most of the people who like and use it were on the film? I really DON"t think
so. I don't know what universe that idea comes from, but ok......

Personally I'm impressed with the blender forum. They have a completely different
attitude over on blenderartists forum, and it's not all super-chatty either.

catizone
02-26-2008, 03:29 PM
Okay, maybe I'm wrong. I just recognized a LOT of names from messiah community.
I was just trying to say that a group of people took messiah and turned out some very nice work on the project.


Best,
Rick

dobermunk
02-26-2008, 03:48 PM
hehe...
we're communal enough to know when to duck. stooch, for example, knows me well enough to know that I enjoy his company in this community, but this recent snideness is getting old. Let's get back to the features, the testing - even when they don't work as wished or aren't complete. (i.e. clumping)

I have some very juicy tests of backlit subsurface hair that rush punched up with some great shading tricks... it shows the power of messiah's hair. Haven't done sufficient dynamics tests, yet. hope to get to that...

TylerAZambori
02-26-2008, 04:25 PM
Okay, maybe I'm wrong. I just recognized a LOT of names from messiah community.
I was just trying to say that a group of people took messiah and turned out some very nice work on the project.


Best,
Rick

yes, agreed, very nice work :)

CGTalk Moderation
02-26-2008, 04:25 PM
This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.