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peksi
02-20-2008, 10:21 AM
http://www.projectmessiah.com/

borisgoreta2000
02-20-2008, 10:53 AM
Make sure you hit F5 afer you follow the link. Otherwise my browser showed the old version.

The top menu is hidden, you have to use the slider on the right side. I am Using Firefox.

timnhe
02-20-2008, 11:17 AM
Yessssss! the v3 version is yet Available, great news for the community

MarkInTx
02-20-2008, 12:16 PM
Make sure you hit F5 afer you follow the link. Otherwise my browser showed the old version.

The top menu is hidden, you have to use the slider on the right side. I am Using Firefox.

Yeah, the web-site is confusing. But 3.0 is out!

$169 upgrade, and you get the hair module free... Hot damn!

dobermunk
02-20-2008, 12:31 PM
Yeah, great news!!!

I also overlooked the upgrade pricing because it doesn't have a blue headline like the other items... but tis there at the bottom of "shop".

Suricate
02-20-2008, 12:59 PM
Great news! Just contacted pmG for the upgrade ... :bounce:

CGmascot
02-20-2008, 01:11 PM
Happy days!
I've waited for this. It is a good time for a new user to buy Messiah.

edit: 64bit-version and ability to use more than 2 cores, the cost set for these, were something I initally commented on.. and didn't think it through before speaking. Sorry about that. They are techical milestones and certainly worth the little extra cost.

Ulven
02-20-2008, 01:27 PM
Yay, it's up. Check out the new tutorials that will help you get some insight on some of the various new features.

cgswami
02-20-2008, 01:40 PM
GREAT !.... but two things ...

1. I would like to see some of the feature for the hair module on the site (unless I missed it) .... @ 249 USD that has to be reaaaaaalllly good.

2. there should be a cost to upgrade from Workstation to Professional .... I only use 64 bit for 3d

PS the use of frames on the website is not ver user freindly it hides the top menu/ you have to scrlll to navigate

dobermunk
02-20-2008, 02:05 PM
GREAT !

:bounce:

1. I would like to see some of the feature for the hair module on the site (unless I missed it) .... @ 249 USD that has to be reaaaaaalllly good.


http://www.projectmessiah.com/x4/vids/ms3/fur_101.mov
http://www.projectmessiah.com/x4/vids/ms3/fur_101_prt2.mov
http://www.projectmessiah.com/x4/vids/ms3/CatFur.mov


Have you seen these?
And - err, that the fur plug-in is free?

2. there should be a cost to upgrade from Workstation to Professional

Upgrade messiah:Studio Workstation or messiah:animate
to messiahStudio 3

THUR
02-20-2008, 02:08 PM
Today I'm a happy man :)

kvernon
02-20-2008, 02:28 PM
Any news on the zombie keys? Did those get squashed yet?

Cheers,

Kelly

Sil3
02-20-2008, 02:50 PM
I didnt find a link to a demo, is there one?

For those that have it already a couple of questions:

4.New Editsphere
Customizable hotkey control of manipulators. Standardized keyboard presets.

This tells me almost nothing actually, so the question is:

- Can I have now a way to mimic Maya style navigation? Alt + 3 mouse buttons in case anyone is wondering...


more :

- Does it already accept 32 bit tiff files from Zbrush or Mudbox?

- Do the Normal Maps work ?

- Still no Weight Painting as we know it on other aplications right?

- Link With or Set Driven Keys without resorting to negative Keyframes already possible?

- Image Bake Tools? In case I want to bake a procedural texture into an Image or the GI or an Ambient Oclusion etc etc, I dont know if this was possible before, Im guessing not so Im asking.

The gallery should really show Images of the new FUR feature... its a shame its promoted and then we want to see it in action and theres none on the gallery... yeah yeah the videos I know, but those videos are a brief show of how we use it not how it can look like on a Production as a final product, since the Fur was developed for at least one Production some images shold be present IMO, they dont need to be from those Productions (yeah NDAs and all that blablabla) but Im pretty sure the betatester must have loads of Fur (Final Renders not simple Sphere tests) that they can post.

borisgoreta2000
02-20-2008, 03:12 PM
It says on a shop page that upgrades can be downloaded, I bought an upgrade, where can I download it ?

Parsec3d
02-20-2008, 07:03 PM
AMaaaaazinnnngggg!!! Thanks PMG!!!

btw ,, I see a hair forces Tab!!... ,,,,, do we have hair forces?

palpal
02-20-2008, 07:17 PM
To PMG... congrats and the best of luck with your child... Will upgrade and test it out next week! It must be so good for you to have a new version now, cool... happy thoughts to you!

Yuors PAL :bounce:

Ulven
02-20-2008, 07:21 PM
borisgoreta2000: I think they'll send you a dongle updater thingie and link. That's what they did in the beta with us at least.

Sil3:
-I don't think they've made a build for a demo yet.
-Yes you can alter the navigation keys to mimic maya more closely (alt+mousebuttons)
-Mudbox and Zbrush isn't really my field of expertise so I haven't tested that.
-Weight maps from can be read from .wt ASCII files for which you can write exporters for any program (and a lightwave exporter already exists) with Import Weights plugin that is free of charge on www.usefulslug.com/downloads.html (http://www.usefulslug.com/downloads.html)
-Linking animation items to drive animation of other item's frames is still possible, but negative frames are more suitable. Was that what you were asking?
-There's no specific new image baking tool that I know of.

rush had a bunch of lovely hair/fur renders hopefully he'll put them up somewhere for you to have a gander at. The betatesters are mostly concerned with finding and squashing bugs as they appear so there's not a whole host of finished renders that come out of it unless it is being used for a job at the time.

Bunch of renders I did with 3 (Rendering isn't my primary skill really so it's not all top notch but y'know...)

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/4749/yeagerfurshottest181aa2.jpg

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/1356/yeagerfurb393ys4.png

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/6664/archviz3pi1.jpg

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/1515/32jb4.jpg

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/5515/beachrendersmall3ma0.jpg

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/637/finalrendertest30090hx7.jpg

http://www.usefulslug.com/images/blobs.jpg

And this one is from the 20 minute tutorial:
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/9792/circlerender0010dj2.jpg

d_floh
02-20-2008, 07:35 PM
YESH!!

great, great ,great ...
hmmm now i have just to stop my holidays to go home to buy the update...:D

florian

Sil3
02-20-2008, 07:43 PM
Sil3:
-I don't think they've made a build for a demo yet.


Ok we need to wait...


-Yes you can alter the navigation keys to mimic maya more closely (alt+mousebuttons)


Sweet :)


-Mudbox and Zbrush isn't really my field of expertise so I haven't tested that.


Can anyone test this please?? 16 bit maps requires us to waste huge amount of time getting the right displace measurements, 32 bit files have this info embeded on the Displace, yes they are heavier on the size but it reliefs the guess work and test renders just to see if the Displaces are like we did them on ZB or Mud.


-Weight maps from can be read from .wt ASCII files for which you can write exporters for any program (and a lightwave exporter already exists) with Import Weights plugin that is free of charge on www.usefulslug.com/downloads.html (http://www.usefulslug.com/downloads.html)


What i meant was a way to PAINT those Weights INSIDE Messiah but by your answer I guess not, thanks for the LW plug link but I dont use LW for any Character Animation since 2004 and painting Weights in LW is retarded and atrocious to say the least. Even if we used it, how can we know where we are going to put the Bones etc?

Game work requires Weight Maps and sometimes it even requires that a Vertex cannot be influenced by more than 2 Bones... Messiah not getting Weight Painting completly rules out the Game Market (excluding cinematics scenes of course thata re rendered regularly) in case anyone is wondering why theres the need for the dreadfull Weight painting


-Linking animation items to drive animation of other item's frames is still possible, but negative frames are more suitable. Was that what you were asking?


Yes but without resorting to Negative Keys.. a simple panel ala Maya or XSi where we can then see in the timeline the keys we made and alter them at will would be a lot better IMO.


-There's no specific new image baking tool that I know of.


Hummm... guess its time PMG focus on this one too .



rush had a bunch of lovely hair/fur renders hopefully he'll put them up somewhere for you to have a gander at. The betatesters are mostly concerned with finding and squashing bugs as they appear so there's not a whole host of finished renders that come out of it unless it is being used for a job at the time.


Let see them them :D

Well to spot bugs someone must be working and making things, because bugs are caught in productions not while playing around, im pretty sure someone must have dozens or more of COMPLETED renders, lets hope that they appear because messiah gallery is in need of a revamp.




Bunch of renders I did with 3 (Rendering isn't my primary skill really so it's not all top notch but y'know...)



Thanks for the images :)

Upsssss I almost forgot... Edit Sphere... tell me we can get rid of it and have a regular like all other programs have : Gizmo for Rotation, Gizmo for Translation etc etc etc

Ulven
02-20-2008, 08:00 PM
Yeah you can change to seperate edit gizmo for each thing.
Check out http://www.andysairplanes.com/ for more "straight from production" messiah 3 renders. The whole show was animated and rendered in messiah 3 beta.

rush123
02-20-2008, 08:02 PM
These are by no means the best you can get, but some tests I ran through the beta period.

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/550/longhair01lu3.th.jpg (http://img174.imageshack.us/my.php?image=longhair01lu3.jpg)

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/549/quickhairrf1.th.jpg (http://img253.imageshack.us/my.php?image=quickhairrf1.jpg)

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/74/lady02bh1.th.jpg (http://img253.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lady02bh1.jpg)

R

rush123
02-20-2008, 08:09 PM
Some other stuff done with the hair/fur module

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/3738/paintbrush01mv2.th.jpg (http://img174.imageshack.us/my.php?image=paintbrush01mv2.jpg)

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/9117/abstractart02qo7.th.jpg (http://img174.imageshack.us/my.php?image=abstractart02qo7.jpg)

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/8169/dirtgrass02zj5.th.jpg (http://img174.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dirtgrass02zj5.jpg)

R

Wireframes
02-20-2008, 09:08 PM
Hi rush :)

is there a way to animate hair ?

Thanks

Phil

JensDa
02-20-2008, 09:11 PM
Hello,

Do I have to buy the 64 bit upgrade if I am on XP64 or will the normal Messiah Sudio 3.0 run on my XP64 system in 32Bit mode so that I can buy the 189,-- $ upgrade for my Messiah Studio Workstation 2.5C?

Does anyone know?

Cheers

Jens

Ulven
02-20-2008, 09:14 PM
Yeah you can run the 32 bit version on 64 bit systems. The 64 bit version specifically helps with scenes over 2gb ram, which you're most likely to encounter with rendering heavy scenes.

JensDa
02-20-2008, 09:20 PM
Ok, thank you Ulven.

borisgoreta2000
02-20-2008, 10:05 PM
Does 64 bit version work with LW 64 ? Is there 64 bit version of messiahLW.p ?

kvernon
02-20-2008, 11:04 PM
so are Zombie keys still in messiah:Studio 3?


Thanks,

Kelly

[edit reason] forgot a word

biliousfrog
02-20-2008, 11:35 PM
Wow...messiah's struggled to keep up with a lot of other 3d apps but it was always seen primarily as a great animation system...and a cheap one at that!

Now it's a full-on animation and render system that's potentially really expensive for what it does...$947 for a production ready version, $548 without net-render support. Thats only whilst the hair module is free.

It's also ironic that this arrives at the same time as this: http://www.newtek.com/news/pressrelease.php?viewpr=36

so...do I pay $947 for a quirky renderer and animation suite which has been in public beta for years or $895 for a full 3d production suite that's had 3 major updates in the past 12 months?

Ulven
02-21-2008, 12:11 AM
biliousfrog: Now that's just a silly way of putting it. Messiah beats lw hands down on animation/rigging even if lw9.5 brings upgraded IK speeds. Version 3 gives it a good run for it's money on being in front on some rendering technology too, with hair/fur, smooth GI and instancing all in your toolkit for only $399. The 64 bit version is specifically designed to help out when you have heavy scenes, such as some one might encounter with multiple characters with heavy rigs and heavy displacement. Network rendering licence is only needed for a single copy, once. So the net effect is that you end up spending less the more seats you need, and you only have to pay for the things you want/need. Very fair pricing policy if you ask me. Not to mention $169-189 upgrade price to lw's $395

Tartiflette
02-21-2008, 12:17 AM
so...do I pay $947 for a quirky renderer and animation suite which has been in public beta for years or $895 for a full 3d production suite that's had 3 major updates in the past 12 months?
I think it all depends on what you're doing primarily... ;)
If it's character animation then i think Messiah is more suited for that kind of thing but if you're doing archiviz or "all-purpose" 3D then LightWave stays on top when it comes to the "bang for the buck" thingy. :)

Hope it helps.


Cheers,
Laurent aka Tartiflette :)

Edit : Oops, Ulven beats me to it ! ;)

Parsec3d
02-21-2008, 12:34 AM
Man it is way cheaper that the previous one ,, why ppl always find a way to complain about prices.. I mean as long as I am not PMG or Newtek or softimage ,, if tomorrow Houdini is offered for 99 I will buy it and keep it as a secret to my clients.. more tools more power.


blender is free and has it all so is that a reason to say that c4d is overpriced? I don't think so, also now studio almost as expensive as workstation was for me and in previous talks the new version was supposed to be just for those going for studio , should I complain that I payed more the last time ? nop ,, I will just upgrade and hopefully get another set.

---

cheer up, have fun


AD

kursad_pileksuz
02-21-2008, 01:31 AM
Edit sphere is way more comfortable in the new version. There were some quirks in previous versions regarding edit sphere. Fori scraped off most them.

Also there is a nice surprise in the new version. You can totally hide the edit sphere with a shortcut. Before only esc was working and to hide it you needed to click in 3d view, with the new hiding command you do not need to do that.

I also created basic Maya and Modo shortcuts-navigation for Messiah. I am not sure if Fori included them in the release but most of the navigation controls of other softwares is possible. In my view Messiah`s edit sphere offers more controls than others.



Messiah accepts 16bit .tif files at the moment. And I am sure 32bit would be implemented sometime soon. According to Taron it is just a matter of reading the file format. I really hope this will be implemented soon.

Messiah is very very comfortable and easy to use with zbrush displacement maps. Messiah`s handling of displacement maps is very good. Especially handling of uv edges is very good in my opinion. Now that Messiah is 64bit you can render your mesh at any resolution you want.


There are no baking tools in Messiah at the moment. I can see the benefit of them because I already use baking tools in Modo heavily. Hopefully Taron or Fori can start discussion about this. But I personally do noty need baking inside Messiah because I already use Modo for it. And Modo does pretty good job of creating bake maps. If you need baking and short of funds you can try Blender I think it can bake maps.





I didnt find a link to a demo, is there one?

For those that have it already a couple of questions:

4.New Editsphere
Customizable hotkey control of manipulators. Standardized keyboard presets.

This tells me almost nothing actually, so the question is:

- Can I have now a way to mimic Maya style navigation? Alt + 3 mouse buttons in case anyone is wondering..


more :

- Does it already accept 32 bit tiff files from Zbrush or Mudbox?

- Do the Normal Maps work ?

- Still no Weight Painting as we know it on other aplications right?

- Link With or Set Driven Keys without resorting to negative Keyframes already possible?

- Image Bake Tools? In case I want to bake a procedural texture into an Image or the GI or an Ambient Oclusion etc etc, I dont know if this was possible before, Im guessing not so Im asking.

The gallery should really show Images of the new FUR feature... its a shame its promoted and then we want to see it in action and theres none on the gallery... yeah yeah the videos I know, but those videos are a brief show of how we use it not how it can look like on a Production as a final product, since the Fur was developed for at least one Production some images shold be present IMO, they dont need to be from those Productions (yeah NDAs and all that blablabla) but Im pretty sure the betatester must have loads of Fur (Final Renders not simple Sphere tests) that they can post.

stooch
02-21-2008, 01:43 AM
silly and greedy? messiah needs the funds to be come better. im glad they are coming to their senes and charging for it. Its about time! if you are a professional then you should have the cash, its not exactly expensive and its a tax write off. I hate posts by cheapasses like you!

anyway congratulations PMG! Cant wait to try this out, im definitelly buying an upgrade!


Happy days!
I've waited for this. It is a good time for a new user to buy Messiah.

Only thing I don't like is extra fee for using a many core machine or 64bit OS. Seems both silly and greedy to charge people for using one computer to it's full potential. I'm fine with extra render nodes costing something but am not so happy with this previous bit.
...
Than again Messiah, especially when bought right now with the hair free, is still ok in price even with the core/64bit cost included.

kursad_pileksuz
02-21-2008, 02:21 AM
It seems like everything in the update is not listed on the website but let me list the ones I remember

-64bit version, my favorite feature I would say.
-New speedhazer shader (Taron did some ehnacements)
-All the keyboard keys can be mapped (in previous versions some keys were hardcoded)
-New edit sphere enhancements ( Fori did alot of fixing. It is possible to simulate Maya for example )
-Hair module
-Revisited springs engine (According to Taron he did enhancements to springs)
-OpenEXR support
-Automatic chunk sizes based on y resolution of the frame (very good rendering speed booster)
-I think shadow buffer is fixed. I have not tested this one myself.
-GI improvements (Fori needs to release more technical list regarding this one)
-Editing pivot in setup bug is fixed.
-Stereo 3d-panaromic camera
-Deleting unused images
-Instancing
-Glass rendering with dispersion



There are alot more fixes and features but these are the ones I remember off the top of my head.

catizone
02-21-2008, 03:30 AM
Great news...I'll be ordering mine in a day or so!

ANd new video tutorials as well.

Best,
Rick

KAMAKAZZI
02-21-2008, 03:47 AM
That upgrade with free hair is a steal. I have to get it over the weekend.


Cya!

MarkInTx
02-21-2008, 03:48 AM
so...do I pay $947 for a quirky renderer and animation suite which has been in public beta for years or $895 for a full 3d production suite that's had 3 major updates in the past 12 months?

Dunno.

But right now my small investment in Messiah last year is looking like a VERY smart move, 'cause I get the whole schbang for $169!

::: INSERT ICON for VICTORY DANCE HERE :::

biliousfrog
02-21-2008, 09:29 AM
[EDIT] I didn't realise that the upgrade included EVERYTHING!...that's brilliant...for the current users.:thumbsup:

.............................................................

I guess I didn't really get my point across. I don't want to be the @$$hole that knocks PMG but I couldn't get excited about v.3.

I honestly think that having to pay extra for a 64bit version is ludicrous, nobody else does it to my knowledge and if the technology's there why not have it as standard so that more people take up the software? 64bit is quickly becoming industry standard so making people pay extra for it seems greedy...which brings me to...

If Messiah is primarily an animation system then why is the hair module included for free? Surely it would make more sense to include the 64bit for free and have the hair as an add-on? I just don't understand the logic behind charging more for having a faster app but giving away something that most people won't use...unless it's purely to make more money from the die-hard fans.

I seem to remember, when I bought it, hardly anyone used the renderer. I did but as soon as Lightwave developed nodes and final gather it became redundant. Now LW 9.5 has hair included plus a whole host of VERY fast cameras and GI...so why even try to compete? Why not stick to the animation suite, give us 64bit and charge extra for those that simply must use the renderer?

CGmascot
02-21-2008, 09:32 AM
I hate posts by cheapasses like you!
Zing! Yes, I'm noticing there isn't much merit to that complaint. And yes, I'm poor. Indeed when one can afford a many core kick-ass machine, the cost for using those cores in a software is like nothing.
I'm all for PMG going forward so sorry for my cheapness.

dobermunk
02-21-2008, 09:55 AM
hehe... apparently, the website can't handle an upgrade of 2 licences at once. Anyone else encountering this? Guess I'll try a mail....

palpal
02-21-2008, 10:41 AM
HELLO, WE IN THIS FORUM KNOWS THAT PMG HAVE HAD DIFFERENT TASKS TO GET WHERE THEY ARE TODAY - A NEW VERSION IS OUT! :thumbsup:

biliousfrog: I really did not think that this thread were to put down the pricetag and all, can`t you start a new thread for that? :cry:

Think of the proud people that actually has made this for a living or for the interest! They made a new realease! They are few people too... think of the amount of work in there... and this is how you post here... that is ruude, selfish and plain silly :banghead: ?

The world is full of greed and rudeness, humans seldom think upon their mates anymore in a caring way, think of your next and it will be a better place for all. There is place for alot of differences and ideas and thoughts, but as a platform we have to care about eachother. And a first step here might be to be nicer and not that rude and selfish all the time. Let them shine abit here?

AGAIN - CONGRATS TO THE HARD WORKING BRAINS AT PMG FOR MAKING SUCH A SHINY NEW VERSION OF MESSIAH :applause:

Yours PAL :bounce:

rush123
02-21-2008, 11:03 AM
It seems like everything in the update is not listed on the website but let me list the ones I remember

-64bit version, my favorite feature I would say.
-New speedhazer shader (Taron did some ehnacements)
-All the keyboard keys can be mapped (in previous versions some keys were hardcoded)
-New edit sphere enhancements ( Fori did alot of fixing. It is possible to simulate Maya for example )
-Hair module
-Revisited springs engine (According to Taron he did enhancements to springs)
-OpenEXR support
-Automatic chunk sizes based on y resolution of the frame (very good rendering speed booster)
-I think shadow buffer is fixed. I have not tested this one myself.
-GI improvements (Fori needs to release more technical list regarding this one)
-Editing pivot in setup bug is fixed.
-Stereo 3d-panaromic camera
-Deleting unused images


There are alot more fixes and features but these are the ones I remember off the top of my head.

Just a few more to the above list;

Morphblender module (Endomorphs)

Plugins
ChangeCurveType
ChangeCurveTypeAllChannels
ChangeCurveTypeAllObjects
CreateVar
CreateBetterKey
MoveToAlignKey
DynaPIP
Autoriglite
IKFK Blending

Scripts:
VarChannelAdd
HandleCreate
HandlePosTypeSet
HandleOffTypeSet
HandleControllerSet
HandlePosType
HandleOffType
HandleController
ActionCreate
ActionMouseSet


Shaders:
Ramp (New)
Voronoia (New)
Simple volume
ParticleCloud (New)
Speed Hazer v2
Noisette v2
Grids & Wires update
Gradient & Fresnel update
Standard shader – Improved SSS
Additional secularity mode

Lights:
Falloff Attenuation Color
Falloff Type new Exponential mode
Shadows Minimum Quality threshold

Render:
New AA mode
Matte objects
Unseen by atmosphere option
Zero the alpha buffer
Occlusion distance
Improve gamma

R

MarkInTx
02-21-2008, 11:53 AM
[EDIT] I didn't realise that the upgrade included EVERYTHING!...that's brilliant...for the current users.:thumbsup:


If I read your post right... this includes you too, right?

.............................................................

[EDIT]
I honestly think that having to pay extra for a 64bit version is ludicrous, nobody else does it to my knowledge and if the technology's there why not have it as standard so that more people take up the software?


I kinda agree with you on this one, but I don't have all of the facts, so I can't answer. It could be that there is a separate code base for 64 bit, that has to be updated, tested, etc as a different product so they are charging to offset the cost. Maybe the only way they could justify producing a 64 bit version is to charge more -- since it is not yet the industry standard, and they think maybe no one will buy it? I dunno...

[EDIT]
Now LW 9.5 has hair included plus a whole host of VERY fast cameras and GI...so why even try to compete? Why not stick to the animation suite, give us 64bit and charge extra for those that simply must use the renderer?

Pricing can drive you crazy if you let it. I don't think that the 3D world is priced right across the board. For example, I think Silo is an amazing value. I got it for about $100. zBrush costs more than XSI. That seems like a dumb deal.

Or, you could ask how Ulven can charge $100 for an autorigger for an app that costs (at the time) a little over $200.

And the answer comes to this: What is it worth to you? How much time does it save you? What can it do for you?

A professional will pay it, of course, because time is money. And, I think that Messiah is primarily aimed at the professional.

But I'm a hobbyist. And even I will pay it, because my time is valuable to me.

If zBrush can do something no other app does... I guess I will pay for it. Or if I can use Ulven's auto-rigger and cut hours off of my set-up time, won't I buy it? Of course I will. It is worth it to me just to support people who make plug-ins for messiah!

Software is an interesting object. It has no intrinsic value. Unlike, a car for example. It has no parts. No material cost. But it could be worth anywhere from $10 to $10 million. It all comes down to how much the customer is willing to pay.

Comparing LW to Messiah doesn't work -- at least for me. For one thing, I really don't like using LW. For another, Messiah CAN do things that LW can't. Most people who like what Messiah does will buy both, and not choose between them.

palpal
02-21-2008, 12:19 PM
Yours PAL :bounce:

cgswami
02-21-2008, 01:34 PM
thanks dobermunk .. me excited deluded meh!

Is it just me or the catfur video looks like a pig humping a cat at the beginning

Sil3
02-21-2008, 01:35 PM
Thanks Ulven and kursad_pileksuz for the replies :D


Am I the only one that finds an "extreme coincidence" that hours after a User posted the new Messiah on CGTALK, NT announced the New LW 9.5 (who knows when it will be available) with new Hair and Fur etc... I mean if the product was ready for the masses I could believe that it was a coincidence... but like this... not really :p

Now another question... How come NO ONE from PMG came here and announced the new version or even talked briefly about it? :hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

biliousfrog
02-21-2008, 01:54 PM
Am I the only one that finds an "extreme coincidence" that hours after a User posted the new Messiah on CGTALK, NT announced the New LW 9.5 (who knows when it will be available) with new Hair and Fur etc... I mean if the product was ready for the masses I could believe that it was a coincidence... but like this... not really :p


LW 9.5 open beta is early March.

Sorry again for my harsh post, I would like to pick up on a few things but I'll leave it as they'll probably get misunderstood. Priorities within PMG and the Messiah users have obviously changed considerably since I last visited this forum so forgive my confusion over where Messiah is headed. I wasn't knocking the hard work or saying that LW is better, just a bit confused over the pricing structure for non-registered users...for registered users it's a bargain and worth every penny!

Thanks PMG, I might dig around in the loft to see whether I can find my dongle and upgrade whilst the $ is so cheap.

TylerAZambori
02-21-2008, 02:00 PM
A professional will pay it, of course, because time is money. And, I think that Messiah is primarily aimed at the professional.

If they even sell it to hobbyists, then it's for hobbyists too. The only way they could
really keep the hobbyists out is to charge $10,000 for it. Kinda like endorphin.
That would keep the hobbyists out for sure. Oh wait, that would probably also exclude
freelancers! And who would buy it then?

Ulven
02-21-2008, 02:02 PM
Thanks Ulven and kursad_pileksuz for the replies :D


Am I the only one that finds an "extreme coincidence" that hours after a User posted the new Messiah on CGTALK, NT announced the New LW 9.5 (who knows when it will be available) with new Hair and Fur etc... I mean if the product was ready for the masses I could believe that it was a coincidence... but like this... not really :p

Now another question... How come NO ONE from PMG came here and announced the new version or even talked briefly about it? :hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

I actually found that to be a very curious coincidence. Oh well, more software updates is better than none, eh? I wish the newtek gang all the best.
I think Fori must have gone to sleep briefly after having put everything up on the web :)

thanks dobermunk .. me excited deluded meh!

Is it just me or the catfur video looks like a pig humping a cat at the beginning

Haha, perhaps be more careful with my placement next time :)

Ulven
02-21-2008, 02:12 PM
Regarding negative posts, I think that we could do with some PMA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_mental_attitude) on this forum sometimes.
It's really what drives developers of smaller applications and plugins, as the dollars in that can be few and far between.

TylerAZambori
02-21-2008, 02:24 PM
Regarding negative posts, I think that we could do with some PMA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_mental_attitude) on this forum sometimes.
It's really what drives developers of smaller applications and plugins, as the dollars in that can be few and far between.

yes, and respect. There could be more basic respect all around.

kursad_pileksuz
02-21-2008, 04:23 PM
It was also full lunar eclipse last night. Was it all coincidence? :)


Thanks Ulven and kursad_pileksuz for the replies :D


Am I the only one that finds an "extreme coincidence" that hours after a User posted the new Messiah on CGTALK, NT announced the New LW 9.5 (who knows when it will be available) with new Hair and Fur etc... I mean if the product was ready for the masses I could believe that it was a coincidence... but like this... not really :p

:

peksi
02-21-2008, 04:42 PM
It was also full lunar eclipse last night. Was it all coincidence? :)

But it was announced long time ago! ;)

My Fault
02-21-2008, 04:46 PM
[EDIT] I honestly think that having to pay extra for a 64bit version is ludicrous, nobody else does it to my knowledge and if the technology's there why not have it as standard so that more people take up the software? 64bit is quickly becoming industry standard so making people pay extra for it seems greedy...which brings me to...

If Messiah is primarily an animation system then why is the hair module included for free? Surely it would make more sense to include the 64bit for free and have the hair as an add-on? I just don't understand the logic behind charging more for having a faster app but giving away something that most people won't use...unless it's purely to make more money from the die-hard fans.

Wow, as cheap and as good of a deal as messiah 3 is and people are still complaining. Couple of thoughts.

First off, having to pay extra for 64 bit I don't find greedy. The reality is that most users will probably not need it (Plus the fact that most users are not running a 64 bit OS.). Like most 64bit apps it does not run faster, it just handles scenes and large amounts of memory better. On Andy's we had well over 200 shots and only a small percentage of those needed to render on 64 bit and that was due to some crazy huge models with monster textures. The regular 32 bit renderer just couldn't deal with the memory needed.

Secondly, if you have listened to messiah users over the last few years, hair is one of the most asked for features so it makes more sense they would include it for free. And with the new pricing structure, if you don't need it (or 64 bit) then you don't have to pay for it and can just buy messiah 3 for the crazy low price of $399. I mean, if you are a hobbyist, you get a lot for that $399 and the hair for free is huge. For a pro, $399 is a days work and it is paid for. I really don't understand how you can complain about that.

I say follow Ulven's PMA suggestion. And kudos to the very small team at pmg, awesome work and so glad to see 3 out!

shadowfork
02-21-2008, 04:58 PM
......... yeah ........... 3 is out ........... looking @ the new features ............. can't say i'm as excited/impressed as everyone .......... but I wanna congratulate PMG for the hard effort. Good job guys.

ATAHUALPA
02-21-2008, 05:03 PM
Hi guys,

does anyone know if the volumetric shaders, which have been
discussed some weeks ago, are in version 3?

Cheers

Martin

rush123
02-21-2008, 05:30 PM
Taron's volume shader has not made it to this release, but it shouldn’t be long after. A lot of work was done with other shaders to make ‘tighter integration’ hence why a bit of slippage. But there are a number of new shaders and big updates to old ones.

R

edit:

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/2825/ab1on8.th.jpg (http://img176.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ab1on8.jpg)

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/314/ab2hq8.th.jpg (http://img176.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ab2hq8.jpg)

stooch
02-21-2008, 06:36 PM
......... yeah ........... 3 is out ........... looking @ the new features ............. can't say i'm as excited/impressed as everyone .......... but I wanna congratulate PMG for the hard effort. Good job guys.

why even post here then? who cares that you arent impressed? for me 180 bucks for an upgrade is a no brainer. the pricing for a new version is also a no brainer. seriously if you want to be "impressed by features" go get blender.

MarkInTx
02-21-2008, 06:36 PM
OK... I ordered the upgrade... Does anyone know how this works now?

They asked me for a shipping address, so I am going to assume that they will ship me a new install DVD and dongle.

But they never asked me for my current serial number, customer number, or anything. How do they know I qualify for an upgrade? Hmmmm... does that mean they are going to take the time to look me up in their files before sending me the upgrade? Yikes!

Or will it only upgrade if it finds a current version (ala Photoshop's Upgrade policy).

Anyone know? I'm guessing no one has the GA release of 3 yet, eh?

Wireframes
02-21-2008, 06:46 PM
MarkInTx > did you upgrade from workstation or Pro version ?

Phil

shadowfork
02-21-2008, 07:12 PM
why even post here then? who cares that you arent impressed? for me 180 bucks for an upgrade is a no brainer. the pricing for a new version is also a no brainer. seriously if you want to be "impressed by features" go get blender.

Did I push your button there? :D

I posted to congratulate PMG... grow up fanboy.:rolleyes:

ThomasHelzle
02-21-2008, 07:20 PM
Hi,

rush123 just made me aware that there is an update to messiah and that the AoN:Studio and TLHPro shaders are crashing with version 3.

I thought others may be interested in this issues as well:

I ordered the studio update and will look into the problem when it arrives, but I can't promise a quick fix - I have a lot of other work and move to a new appartment over the next weeks... It will also depend on how involved the fix is, so don't hold your breath... ;)

I also never did a 64 bit port before, I'll have to see how much work it is.

Anybody still using the shaders at all?

Cheers, :bowdown:

Thomas Helzle

Ulven
02-21-2008, 07:39 PM
Maybe a bit strong putdown there stooch :)

Good news Thomas. I'd love to see your shaders roll on the new version again. Hope you're doing well.

Wireframes
02-21-2008, 07:44 PM
Hi Thomas,

I own your famous AON and TLHPro and I will be very happy to use it with M3 ;)

And ... Please go to x64.

Phil

ThomasHelzle
02-21-2008, 07:53 PM
Ok, I'll try ;-)

Cheers,

Thomas

stooch
02-21-2008, 08:03 PM
does this look like a genuine congratulation to you? to me it seems like a negative remark with a hasty fake little gesture thrown in.

"......... yeah ........... 3 is out ........... looking @ the new features ............. can't say i'm as excited/impressed as everyone"

hmm 180 dollar upgrade.... for full hair + all the other features, i wonder what he was expecting. And yes people like him push my buttons, just a few months ago we had a huge thread where everyone agreed that PMG should charge for updates because we all want a prosperous messiah that evolves with us. and seeing posts like these or ones complaing about the completely reasonable pricing are just aggravating. its like people want something for nothing.

like i said, if you want something for nothing, go get blender.

Maybe a bit strong putdown there stooch :)

Good news Thomas. I'd love to see your shaders roll on the new version again. Hope you're doing well.

shadowfork
02-21-2008, 08:15 PM
does this look like a genuine congratulation to you? to me it seems like a negative remark with a hasty fake little gesture thrown in.

"......... yeah ........... 3 is out ........... looking @ the new features ............. can't say i'm as excited/impressed as everyone"

hmm 180 dollar upgrade.... for full hair + all the other features, i wonder what he was expecting. And yes people like him push my buttons, just a few months ago we had a huge thread where everyone agreed that PMG should charge for updates because we all want a prosperous messiah that evolves with us. and seeing posts like these or ones complaing about the completely reasonable pricing are just aggravating. its like people want something for nothing.

like i said, if you want something for nothing, go get blender.


I wasn't complaining (yet)... I was just not impressed. It's my opinion. There's nothing too negative about that. You're just too sensitive. I wasn't even talking about the price and you keep putting it out there.

What's wrong with acknowledging PMG's efforts? Just because I wasn't impressed doesn't mean I can't congratulate them. You can't make everyone happy -- it's a fact.

No trolling please. Accept constructive criticisim. Take it like a man.

Oh, and stop promoting BLENDER (lol)

stooch
02-21-2008, 08:19 PM
whats constructive about your criticism?

i think you need to look up constructive criticism before you open your mouth.

i dont see any suggestions on improvement.

oh and i suggest you practice what you preach and take MY criticism like a man.

I wasn't complaining (yet)... I was just not impressed. It's my opinion. There's nothing too negative about that. You're just too sensitive. I wasn't even talking about the price and you keep putting it out there.

What's wrong with acknowledging PMG's efforts? Just because I wasn't impressed doesn't mean I can't congratulate them. You can't make everyone happy -- it's a fact.

No trolling please. Accept constructive criticisim. Take it like a man.

Oh, and stop promoting BLENDER (lol)

Ulven
02-21-2008, 08:20 PM
stooch:
Understood, I was just trying to advice restraint so that things don't get into personal attacks. Same for shadowfork, namecalling like 'fanboy' isn't very cool. I'm not a mod so I probably shouldn't take it upon myself to react to such things, so sorry if you feel like I'm nannying a bit, but I like seeing good forum behaviour.

shadowfork
02-21-2008, 08:28 PM
whats constructive about your criticism?
i think you need to look up constructive criticism before you open your mouth.
i dont see any suggestions on improvement.
oh and i suggest you practice what you preach and take MY criticism like a man.

Sheesh... what crawled up your butt today.

Your point is well taken, my fellow messiah user. :thumbsup:

Ulven
02-21-2008, 08:33 PM
Now, with regards to the upgrade procedure that MarkInTx was asking about:
1. You order your upgrade from pmG.
2. You get a dongle upgrade program that spews out a code that you send to pmG.
3. They email you a download link to the upgrade and a code to put into the dongle updater to update it for version 3.

palpal
02-21-2008, 09:22 PM
Can we be abit more jolly on here? The software is updated, there are new stuff in there and alot of improvements. I am sure that all the ones really using messiah is gaining quite a good salary on the work they do in the software. I meen... the price is really good, leave it at that...

Messiah is a good software to animate in, now also better to render in, and one can even create hair there...

Loog at what TARON has created in messiah for so many years, even the gallery is not updated nor the videos, but really, it is just all that LW should have if you think of animation ease and setup of bones... maybe the new LW will be nice, have to see... maybe there are XSI that one must use or maya... but hands down... messiah is nice, it is cheap and I just LOVE the underdogs.

If I could reach Tarons level I would have alot of high profile work over here at doing such stuff as him, I really do not want that, but man it is a graet software!

Yours PAL :bounce:

Ulven
02-21-2008, 10:13 PM
Some ringing endorsement from wegg on his blog: http://www.eggington.net/~blog/?p=25

palpal
02-21-2008, 10:41 PM
What? What do you point out? The post on his frontpage?

That is pretty much the same that I have been sain`and singin`for the last 3 years about messiah. It is a oven with alot of heat without burning your wallet all up, it is a bargain and a proven in production tool! Lighten up and see what you have had almost for free over the years... and now it got better and costs slightly more, but still it is just amazing what you can do in there, and the best part, share among several sotwares, and get stuff back from them to animate more and so on... for free!! SAS for LW alone costs like 500 us... a render replacement would with ease cost from 350-4000 us ... I meen hello!?! Messiah is a bargain!

Just look at Ulven, man he has been a fast improver and interested in makin the best out of his messiah... and I could not dream of a better man to hire for hard work... he has had messiah for is it 1.5 years? Messiah must be a good tool and with clever and smart artists like him it is just smashing! Look at Taron again... man that man produce some fine stuff all the time... and so early he was with using zbrush so good in animation, many years ago he did... and today that is what everyone tries to do, but man he did most better... ohhh... messiah is a melting pot of cleverness to me!

Yours PAL :bounce:

palpal
02-21-2008, 11:40 PM
...this thread should be about new images that you as messiah users come up with after upgrading... it should be about the work inside the new version and so on, not all just pre-thought-out-ideas-and-complaints without even testing the new child... I think the thread are con other that pro... it should be pro now... it should be progress and about sharing tips and stuff... it should really be all about new possebilleties and progress... h?

Yours PAL :bounce:

palpal
02-22-2008, 02:12 AM
I created this image in LW with starting with SAS otter demo scene, altered the model some and altered the SAS surface alot and some of the scene... I challenge anyone to do the same in messiah! I would just love to se something like this, because then I would know that the fur is working... and then I know I can use it propper, rendertimes I am not that conerned about as the cost of getting good animation is alot greater...

This one rendered out in about 16.2 seconds. It is amazingly fast for an image in thet quality... it is LW with SAS this... over 1200us that is..

Can you show me somthing like this in messiah... it would rule!

Animation of the otter were done in messiah ;-)

Yours PAL :bounce:

shadowfork
02-22-2008, 02:19 AM
Make another thread Pal, don't hijack this one

cheers. :)

palpal
02-22-2008, 02:43 AM
...did not want to jack the thread at all.. Just wanted to see some cool fur in messiah native render here... Just forget my posts if they were out of subject!

Yours PAL :bounce:

Ulven
02-22-2008, 03:05 AM
I found this test on my puter that rush sent me sometime during the beta phase.
Purdy nice grass I thought.
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/7619/grasses6.jpg

shadowfork
02-22-2008, 04:22 AM
...did not want to jack the thread at all.. Just wanted to see some cool fur in messiah native render here... Just forget my posts if they were out of subject!

Yours PAL :bounce:

I don't mean to offend. It will be actually interesting to see it as a new thread.





Nice grass there Ulven. Can hair in messiah be affected with some kind of dynamics... say wind for example, or something to that effect? Or it's just static for now?

Ulven
02-22-2008, 04:34 AM
Right now, as of my last test with it, it was only gravity that is enabled, which makes for kind of nice secondary motion. But of course we'd like to see some more effects and collision. Also, there's a way of affecting it with nulls, so any motion you throw on that should do stuff, but I haven't experimented with that quite enough to know how useful it is yet. Hoping to get around to that this weekend.

Parsec3d
02-22-2008, 04:45 AM
any chance you can post a snap of the forces panel on the hair module? pls...

Ulven
02-22-2008, 04:53 AM
Sure, as I described, only gravity ready as of now from what I could tell earlier. I don't know if the wording of the other channels on the slider are the intended other channels, so don't take that as a completely safe bet.
http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/6057/hairforcespj7.jpg

spaz8
02-22-2008, 05:33 AM
THE PMG webiste is kind of lacking.. or just not fully updated with 3.0 content.. how is hair applied? is it intuitave... to create, style , refine? what is the workflow?

Loolarge
02-22-2008, 08:48 AM
Looking forward to try the demo once it is out. I am an XSI user, so i am wondering if the ability plug in there is in the works?

Ulven
02-22-2008, 10:26 AM
spaz8: The tutorials section has at least three videos showing the basics of how you can work with fur, there are additional ways of approaching it, and they'll get their own tutorials once I have more time to make more tutorials.

Loolarge: If you're using XSI to render in, then mdd files are the most usable for getting the animation in there since it's supported both by messiah and XSI.

MarkInTx
02-22-2008, 11:35 AM
spaz8: The tutorials section has at least three videos showing the basics of how you can work with fur, there are additional ways of approaching it, and they'll get their own tutorials once I have more time to make more tutorials.


Damn, Ulven... you need to change your name. It should be Uber, and in UberMessiahUser!

Seriously, thanks for your hard work. You are an amazing Messiah ambasador. (I was going to say evangelist, but I thought that was stretching a metaphor too far...)

Ulven
02-22-2008, 11:46 AM
Damn, Ulven... you need to change your name. It should be Uber, and in UberMessiahUser!

Seriously, thanks for your hard work. You are an amazing Messiah ambasador. (I was going to say evangelist, but I thought that was stretching a metaphor too far...)

Hehe, thanks a lot. Yeah let's keep it at diplomatic level rather than religious :) I've just been paying for by "bread and board" with messiah for about a year an a half so it's only fair I give something back right?

Nichod
02-22-2008, 01:33 PM
any chance you can post a snap of the forces panel on the hair module? pls...

I recall someone mentioning that hair can also be controlled with expressions.

rush123
02-22-2008, 01:38 PM
In terms of dynamic/forces you have a ‘gravity’ force which is animateable, you also can make a ‘combing group’ made of say 3 nulls or metaeffector which again you can animate. Also you have the fantastic ‘expression’ system which also can be used as required.

Parsec3d
02-22-2008, 05:07 PM
and how about driving a hair channel by for example an animated procedural texture?

rush123
02-22-2008, 05:56 PM
and how about driving a hair channel by for example an animated procedural texture?

As hair/fur is a surface shader, you can easily apply any procedural texture to the mesh and as the mesh is deformed the hair/fur will move accordingly. Equally you can apply an expression to the gravity scale on the hair channel and movement will occur.

Is that what you mean?

Parsec3d
02-22-2008, 06:33 PM
nop.. I was talking about a curliness or length for example..

Ulven
02-22-2008, 06:41 PM
You can drive the hair settings with any weighting tool. So you could for instance animate a metaeffector going around on a surface and use that as the length setting for the hair. Or a procedural with an image map, maybe even a weightmap with import weights, but I haven't tested that

peksi
02-22-2008, 08:33 PM
ImportWeights won't work with fur as it is per-vertex solution.

Ulven
02-22-2008, 08:43 PM
Indeed, I stand corrected.

catizone
02-23-2008, 02:35 PM
Ulven,

I have a cartoon bird that I was going to cheat the feel of feathers for by some judicious use of image maps. Now with fur, maybe I can think about other options. I just downloaded 3. But do you know if their is a way to do that?

I see a volume edges; might that give one flattened shape more like a feather? Or do you know if Fori is working on a way to shape the hairs for other effects? Or is their a possibility of using the hair generator to flock a set of poly-images or sprites?

Thanks,
Rick

Parsec3d
02-23-2008, 05:45 PM
yes feathers and using hair for instances would be great!

Wegg
02-23-2008, 11:18 PM
Nope. Feathers wouldn't really be possible with the current fur shader. There are cool tricks you can use in Sasquatch to make them. And then there are things like MeshPaint in lightwave's modeler that would provide you with a brute force solution, but Messiah's solution is mainly for hair and fur.

catizone
02-24-2008, 12:29 AM
Thanks, Wegg...

Well...there's something for Fori to tackle. He developed the fur amazingly quickly...I'll bet his fertile imagination would give us some additional variations.

Best,
Rick

jgj
02-24-2008, 12:47 AM
Anyone know whether the "dongle upgrade program" is snail- or e- mailed?

And re: hair/fur... looking at the renders shown so far, they have a somewhat harsh, sharp-edged quality. Is it possible to get a softer, less "scratchy" appearance, either within the hair module, or perhaps with different A-A settings?

And...
Has anyone written plugins for the 64-bit version yet, and have they found, perchance, a reasonably affordable, simple way to compile code for 64-bit?

-Jim

rush123
02-24-2008, 01:08 AM
Anyone know whether the "dongle upgrade program" is snail- or e- mailed?

And re: hair/fur... looking at the renders shown so far, they have a somewhat harsh, sharp-edged quality. Is it possible to get a softer, less "scratchy" appearance, either within the hair module, or perhaps with different A-A settings?

And...
Has anyone written plugins for the 64-bit version yet, and have they found, perchance, a reasonably affordable, simple way to compile code for 64-bit?

-Jim

Dongle is via email

soft AA is possible using different setting or AA types & patterns.

64 bit plugins have been written by Ulven so far, hopefully Thomas will update his AoN & TLHPro soon as well

ps a lot of the old scripts work on 64 bit as well, Camrig (Alexk) etc

ThomasHelzle
02-24-2008, 06:08 PM
Well, no good news so far from me in that regard:

I got my update pretty fast: you first get a mail with a little software that extracts some identifier code from your dongle, send that back to pmG and in return you get a longer code sequence that you enter in that same little tool and that "burns" your dongles memory to work for Studio 3. So if you already have a dongle, no snail-mail is needed.
No problems with that.

But then it starts: The SDK is in the same state as 3 years ago: The last documentation is from Lyle, directly written into the headerfiles, the other SDK docs are from 2005, as is the complete messiah help file, the what's new is for messiah Version 2.2.
Some headers have a newer change-date, but no explanations about what changed anywhere.

So I started to recompile AoN:Studio, got some expected errors since the saving of parameters changed slightly since back then, but otherwise everything compiled just fine after changing that bit.

But in messiah:studio 3, as soon as I try to create an AoN node, messiah crashes without a blink - just vanishes off screen.

Since I was told that my shaders worked until a certain point in the Beta and then started to show this behavior, I guess that something was introduced at that point that I don't know about.

Recompiling the shaders with the latest SDK should have done the trick normally and would have been pretty fast.
But I don't know when I will find the time to hunt that problem down, especially without any docs or changelog for 3.
Anybody has any suggestions where to look? Fori, Taron?

jgj: I haven't done any 64 bit stuff yet, but AFAIK Visual Studio Express 2008 can do it, and it is free from Microsoft and very good as far as Usability goes.

Cheers,

Thomas

jgj
02-24-2008, 07:45 PM
Thanks for the pointer, but after I read the fine print, it looks like the minimum that compiles for 64-bit is Visual Studio 2008 Professional ($549 MSRP). I guess they'll have to make all their dev products 64-bit someday... eventually. :)

-Jim



jgj: I haven't done any 64 bit stuff yet, but AFAIK Visual Studio Express 2008 can do it, and it is free from Microsoft and very good as far as Usability goes.

Cheers,

Thomas

ThomasHelzle
02-24-2008, 08:46 PM
Really? On their german Website they claim you could build 32 and 64 bit apps:
http://www.microsoft.com/germany/express/product/vc.aspx
on the english page it's only 32 bit:
http://www.microsoft.com/express/vc/

That would be too bad - and pretty stupid considering how slow the market grows to 64 bit.

What are others using to create 64 bit plugins?

But actually I would be happy to get the 32 bit shaders to work ;-)

Cheers,

Thomas

stooch
02-24-2008, 09:33 PM
soo is anyone else using vista on here? I bought my messiah upgrade ont he day it came out only to find out that im supposed to find an xp installation and upgrade my dongle before getting my upgrade. great. so im expected either to install xp on my machine (just for this dongle) or go to my friends house and do it??? lol. nice. looks like someone didnt test the procedure very well...

kind of disgusted to be honest, dont really care whose fault is it, not very professional imo.

borisgoreta2000
02-24-2008, 09:48 PM
That's not a big deal. Just go to your friends house and update your dongle. I also have Vista and updater didn't work but I think that customer support was great. They said they will contact HASP and resolve the issue, in the meantine I can update it on XP so that's what I did. The replys I got were very fast and friendly.

One thing I noticed about M3 was that it starts in exactly 9 seconds while M2.5c started in exactly 3.7 seconds. Any idea why is that so ?

stooch
02-24-2008, 10:31 PM
lol problem for me is that all my friends are using macs and its a pain in the ass to install an OS for me just for a dongle (not even sure where i put the install disk) i think that it would have been nice of pmg to let people know ahead of time about the problem, i was hoping to use messiah on a current project and didnt welcome the nastry surprise, anyway ill live, but doesnt look like ill be using messiah on this project. shame really. lol seems like something always pops up that keeps me from using the program...\

also "no big deal" is a relative thought. for me it was big enough to not use messiah...

anyway i wont cry about it too much, this is more of a courtesy announcement for those that are upgrading with vista, beware that you have to have an xp install ready or friends with it (the more i think about it, even my pc user friends are all using vista)

ThomasHelzle
02-24-2008, 10:45 PM
You also can't install messiah 64 under Vista (64) while the user security thingy is active.
With it off, it seems to work.

Cheers,

Thomas

Wegg
02-24-2008, 11:37 PM
anyway i wont cry about it too much, this is more of a courtesy announcement for those that are upgrading with vista, beware that you have to have an xp install ready or friends with it (the more i think about it, even my pc user friends are all using vista)

Sorry Stooch, I tried getting it to run on the 1 vista laptop I had and I was disgusted at what Microsoft had done to OpenGL performance vs. XP64. So the "official" OS of Andy's and probably most of the beta team was XP64. Something that is now a bit hard to find. I'm frustrated at Microsoft for making such a poopie OS personally. I got two of the exact same laptops. Same Ram and everything. Downgraded 1 to XP and kept the other with Vista and the XP one is WAY smoother to use and renders faster in After Effects and Messiah. I just don't get what Microsoft was thinking. :-/

I'm sure Fori will find a fix for you though through Hasp. Vista is the future after all. . .

ThomasHelzle
02-25-2008, 12:11 AM
Jim: I'm currently investigating the 64 Bit issue. It seems that by default the Express Editions can't compile for 64 Bit, but that you can if you also install the Microsoft Plattform SDK which comes with the necessary compilers...
I'll let you know what I find out.

Cheers,

Thomas

stooch
02-25-2008, 12:38 AM
its funny that you say that vista is poopie, for me everything runs alot faster, in modo forums a user tested modo on the latest version of mac os and vista and vista came out on top 5% faster in all tests. go figure i guess. Basically after using vista i will never install XP again. its that much of a downgrade.



Sorry Stooch, I tried getting it to run on the 1 vista laptop I had and I was disgusted at what Microsoft had done to OpenGL performance vs. XP64. So the "official" OS of Andy's and probably most of the beta team was XP64. Something that is now a bit hard to find. I'm frustrated at Microsoft for making such a poopie OS personally. I got two of the exact same laptops. Same Ram and everything. Downgraded 1 to XP and kept the other with Vista and the XP one is WAY smoother to use and renders faster in After Effects and Messiah. I just don't get what Microsoft was thinking. :-/

I'm sure Fori will find a fix for you though through Hasp. Vista is the future after all. . .

kursad_pileksuz
02-25-2008, 12:49 AM
Stooch you are alone. You are the only person I have ever heard liking vista.

borisgoreta2000
02-25-2008, 01:06 AM
Vista is fantastic ! I don't have a single problem with Vista 64. Everything runs smooth and fast. The problem with people not liking Vista is in "10 steps to improve Vista performance" which you can find on several places on the web. They simply don't tune Vista. Kill UAC, superfetch, windows defender, Aero and search indexer for starters and see for yourself. I've been using XP 64 for a couple of years. Why would I switch to Vista if it isn't better ?

kursad_pileksuz
02-25-2008, 01:38 AM
I have a laptop with vista here (32bit). It is plain pain even after all possible cleanups. But that is my own experience.

MarkInTx
02-25-2008, 03:04 AM
I have a laptop with xp here (32bit). It is plain pain even after all possible cleanups. But that is my own experience.

Yeah, same here. I uninstalled Vista to get back to XP. Maybe I can get Vista working if I wanted to spend hours tweaking and tuning... but that seems like a lot of work for something that was supposed to be an upgrade...

I read somewhere that Miscorsoft is quietly planning a post-Vista OS now, and that it will eventually go the way of Windows ME -- remember that dog?

Lord Stooch, All of your friends are running Vista or MAC?... you need to make new friends! :)

stooch
02-25-2008, 05:24 AM
Lord Stooch, All of your friends are running Vista or MAC?... you need to make new friends! :)
nah, i dont choose my friends because of their OS. i know some people do that but they are idiots :)
Stooch you are alone. You are the only person I have ever heard
liking vista.
oh i see, so because YOU havent heard of anyone that likes vista (liar) i MUST be alone.... riiiiight. So what kind of sample statistics can you give me on your friends? id like atleast 100,000 in order to make an extrapolation though.

anyway, i didnt say that i have no problems, everythig has problems, i just found it painless to get through whatever hiccups i came across. nothing worse than any of my xp or mac os experiences.

p.s. its kind of ironic that people who are willing to put up with messiah and all of its "hiccups" yet are complaining about vista... lol. (love using messiah, just saying )

kursad_pileksuz
02-25-2008, 05:35 AM
I do not think that creating scientific statistics is my problem at this point. You are the one who made the conscious desicion of going with vista and that desicion led you to the problems with dongle upgrade. So probably you can form a vista users group and pressure Aladdin-hasp and Pmg to solve your problem or move back to xp. I do not see any point of arguing in an animation forum about a ram monster operating system that can mess itself up during updates installation and even has networking problems .






nah, i dont choose my friends because of their OS. i know some people do that but they are idiots :)

oh i see, so because YOU havent heard of anyone that has no problems then i MUST be alone.... riiiiight. So what kind of sample statistics can you give me on your friends? id like atleast 100,000 in order to make an extrapolation though.

anyway, i didnt say that i have no problems, everythig has problems, i just found it painless to get through whatever hiccups i came across. nothing worse than any of my xp or mac os experiences.

stooch
02-25-2008, 05:37 AM
I also made the counscious decision to buy messiah. whats your point?

should i make decisions unconsciously?

p.s. its kind of ironic that people are willing to put up with messiah and all of its "hiccups" yet are complaining about vista... lol. (love using messiah, just saying )

I do not think that creating scientific statistics is my problem at this point. You are the one who made the conscious desicion of going with vista and that desicion led you to the problems with dongle upgrade. So probably you can form a vista users group and pressure Aladdin-hasp and Pmg to solve your problem or move back to xp. I do not see any point of arguing in an animation forum about a ram monster operating system that can mess itself up during updates installation and even has networking problems .

fwtep
02-25-2008, 06:03 AM
Aladdin is aware of the problem and is working on it. (It's an Aladdin-specific thing, not a messiah one.) Like a great many software/hardware manufacturers, Aladdin is having some troubles with Vista. I'll post when there's a fix. In the meantime it's necessary for Vista users to run the updater on a non-Vista system.

Fred

ThomasHelzle
02-25-2008, 11:52 AM
Fred, could you be so good and create a "what's new" for messiah 3?

I would be especially interested in the news in the SDK so I can update my shaders for the people here using them.
Do you or Fori have any idea what's causing the crashes with PointOven and all of my shaders in the new version?

Thank you!

Thomas

Edit: I've been through the SDK with Windiff to find out what's changed, and to me it looks like only minor stuff is different, shouldn't crash the app by the look of it - so is this really the latest SDK we got?

Edit 2: I tried to find out more about VC 2008 Express and 64 Bit, found very confusing and contradictory information on the web and in the Microsoft help and forums and basically it seems that they prevented it from working, although the SDK comes with 64 bit compilers anyway and the Express help even mentions to get 64 bit compiling by installing the SDK. It seems to be possible to compile with 64 Bit from the commandline, but I haven't found a way to do it from the IDE. :rolleyes:
What do others use?

rush123
02-26-2008, 09:10 AM
"Do you or Fori have any idea what's causing the crashes with PointOven and all of my shaders in the new version? "


Thomas,


It looks like the problem has been fixed, though I will not be able to test until later today.


Note from Fori:
The problem was in the call to the plugin to get the dongle id. and only
affected plugin's like Thomas's and PointOven, that would access the dongle
id, but the crash wasn't messiah; it was the dongle function that gets the
id from the dongle. Ive managed to send the code it needed in a different way, and that fixed it.

Thanks

ThomasHelzle
02-26-2008, 03:21 PM
Indeed the problem is fixed! It is the Hasp Dongle drivers that crash when the shaders call for the Dongle ID - so it is neither pmGs nor my fault. Fori found a workaround for now :-)

Thanks Fori :thumbsup: :bowdown:

I'm sure the fix will be available on the download page soon, if anyone needs it right now, please contact me - I guess Fori is okay with me sending it to other people ;-)

With that fix, I can start to test the shaders for other problems with the new SDK - if anybody should find something, please let me know.

I think I will create a new thread with the state of my shaders...

Cheers!

Thomas

Wireframes
02-26-2008, 03:27 PM
Thanks, to all of you for your super mega fast fixing :thumbsup:

Phil

P.S : Does it work with x64 ?

ThomasHelzle
02-26-2008, 03:41 PM
I had a hard time finding out that Visual Studio Express 2008 seems to be disabled for 64 bit compiling although on the german website Microsoft claims 32 and 64 bit options.... So I first have to find a way to compile my stuff - I never used commandline compiling which seems to be possible with the latest Windows SDK - since I'm not a "real" programmer but a visual guy, this may take me a while to get working... :hmm:

Well, I'll post when it is available - the updates (if needed) and the 64 bit versions will be free to existing users.

Cheers!

Thomas

kursad_pileksuz
02-26-2008, 03:43 PM
Maybe you can try other free C compilers. Here is one http://www.bloodshed.net/

ThomasHelzle
02-26-2008, 04:01 PM
I will give it a try, I just hope that doesn't open up a new can of worms :-)

The best would be to have an IDE that could use the microsoft compilers, I think I will check out Eclipse, I like the IDE, maybe there are some docs how to use it with the MS compilers that come with the SDK?

Did you use the bloodshed.net IDE/compiler with messiah 64?

Cheers and thanks,

Thomas

Wegg
02-26-2008, 04:04 PM
Well, I'll post when it is available - the updates (if needed) and the 64 bit versions will be free to existing users.


Very generous of you Thomas. Thank you.

dines
02-26-2008, 04:56 PM
@Thomas

VS Express 2008 does not target 64 bit compilers nativly.
But when you have installed the Windows SDK this allows you to run a cross compiler via command line (cl.exe).

Here are some information:

http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/x4d2c09s(VS.80).aspx
since you are Germany :)
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/de-de/library/x4d2c09s(VS.80).aspx

http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=2115008&SiteID=1

here is another good one... is version 2005, though but could work for 2008, too
http://whitemarker.blogspot.com/2006/12/c-visual-c-2005-express-edition-x64.html


Hope this helps...

kvernon
02-27-2008, 12:36 AM
Hey Thomas,

I just heard about another one at work called "Sharp Develop." It's an open source .NET 2.0 IDE. I don't know about the 64 bit compile though. You can find it by googling or sourceforge.

Cheers,

Kelly

ThomasHelzle
02-27-2008, 07:03 AM
Thank you all for the infos!

Yes, I fear commandline it is if I don't want to shell out for the Standard Edition of VS.
I'll try that workaround in the blog link - the microsoft pages just send you on a hunt around their pages with no real solution :-(
Microsoft is one funny company ;-)

I know Sharp Develop, but I think it is C# only? Have to look it up again, maybe that changed.

Yesterday I checked out Eclipse, but that seems to just open another can of worms...

Thanks a lot everyone!

Cheers,

Thomas

jgj
02-27-2008, 09:22 AM
Found this:
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/9yb4317s.aspx

Which includes the intriguing statement:

"64-bit tools are not available on Visual C++ Express Edition by default. To enable 64-bit tools on Visual C++ Express Edition, install the Windows Software Development Kit (SDK) in addition to Visual C++ Express Edition."

I installed VC++ Express 2008, and then what appears to be the latest Windows SDK:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=E6E1C3DF-A74F-4207-8586-711EBE331CDC&displaylang=en

Should work, the 64-bit compilers are indeed right there in the SDK, but... the 64-bit platform is not shown in the Configuration Editor as it supposedly should be. Don't know why. The Microsoft docs are, as usual, contradictory, incomplete, and not too damn helpful regarding basics.

I'll keep messing with it, see if I can get anything going...

-Jim

ThomasHelzle
02-27-2008, 02:09 PM
Yes, exactly what made me trying everything like crazy for hours and downloading several versions of the SDK. It "sounds" as if it should work easily.
If you start the SDK activation tool, it claims that neither VC++ 2005 nor 2008 is installed.
Crippled by design. :rolleyes:
In the ms forums, some moderators state very clearly, that you can't compile 64 bit with express and the comparision charts claim the same...

I don't complain, it is their decission to make, but they are so clumsy about it, making people feel bad or "cheated" with no real reason where a clear and consistent statement would do.

Just the MS way of doing things I guess. It was the same back when the Standard Edition of VC++ didn't contain the optimizing compiler. Then some time later you were able to download the optimizing compiler in some free package.
I got it working in the end with VC++ Standard by replacing the non-optimizing one with the one from that package, but still the options in the compiler settings were grayed out. I had to put them in by hand...
It would have been so easy for MS to make that package install for VC++ by default and make people happy.

Well, I have the feeling that with setting all the paths in the main options of VC++2008 to the SDK 64Bit directory, it should be possible to do all I need, but it may take a while to fiddle it out.

I'll let you know if I get it working.

Cheers,

Thomas

dines
02-28-2008, 08:58 AM
Visual Studio Express is an free entry Version what can you expect? If one gets the full version there should be no problem with all that stuff according to ScottGu a VP (http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2007/11/19/visual-studio-2008-and-net-3-5-released.aspx)of MS is the main reason for not supporting 64bit compiler the size. The 64bit compiler would be twice the size. After all they still want to sell their stuff... anyway.

But there are still blogs :)

here is another link for integrating the SDK into VS c++ Express with screenshots
http://blogs.msdn.com/windowssdk/archive/2008/02/22/using-visual-c-2008-express-with-the-windows-sdk-detailed-version.aspx

hope this could save you some time...

ThomasHelzle
02-29-2008, 08:28 AM
I actually expect nothing from MS ;-)

But since the 64bit compilers are free with the SDK anyway (which BTW. is for download, so the download size problem is ... well, weird) it feels just annoying.

Well, even with that blogs help, 64bit aren't there in VC Express and I will have to find the time to fiddle with it some more to see if I can change the paths myself.

Maybe on the weekend :-)

Cheers and Thanks! :bowdown:

Thomas

KAMAKAZZI
03-01-2008, 07:59 PM
Hi all,

I have Messiah workstation and saw that to upgrade to Messiah 3 studio would be 189.00 USD.

Would that be the full studio/professional version with unlimited node license, 64 bit multi core license, free hair module and what not?

If so then man--thats a steal!

If not, then I am still gladly and willing to pay more for the hardwork put into this application.

Oh and when I do upgrade to the full spectrum version, how does that work with a dongle key in a sense of updating it or being able to trash it?

Thanks all,

Cypher

isobarxx
03-02-2008, 06:46 AM
Yup =) It's the whole package. I had to read it twice when I upgraded, to make sure I wasn't missing something. And it's backwards compatible, so you can still run 2.5 if you like.

My Fault
03-02-2008, 07:02 AM
Uh, I don't think that is what it says isobar. Upgrading from workstation for $189 says:
Includes:
- Free Hair Module (limited time offer)
- Backward compatible execution of old messiah version

It does not mention 64bit or unlimited nodes. I believe you only get the unlimited nodes and 64bit if you are upgrading Professional to 3, not workstation or animate.

isobarxx
03-02-2008, 07:48 AM
Uh, I don't think that is what it says isobar. Upgrading from workstation for $189 says:
Includes:
- Free Hair Module (limited time offer)
- Backward compatible execution of old messiah version

It does not mention 64bit or unlimited nodes. I believe you only get the unlimited nodes and 64bit if you are upgrading Professional to 3, not workstation or animate.

My mistake, you're correct. I thought he was upgrading Pro.

ThomasHelzle
03-02-2008, 07:17 PM
Just a quick update: I found the solution to compiling 64bit with VC Express after hours of hunting idiotic and false information on the web and on Microsofts website.
So AoN:Studio and TLHPro will be available soon in this flavour.

Please follow my progress on this thread:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=597998&goto=newpost

I will no longer clutter this one with my hunt for 64 :-)

Cheers,

Thomas

KAMAKAZZI
03-02-2008, 08:47 PM
Isobar and Myfault,

Thanks for the reply. Bummer how its not what I first thought it was. However, I am more than happy to pay an extra 399.00 for what this awesome app can produce and compensate Pmg for all their hard work.

Thanks for filling me in with the details.

I am excited Messiah 3 is finally available.

I hope to post more work soon with some fine tutorials and would like to use Messiah 3 and utilize the most current and new features available.

The site kind of makes it confusing so I just thought I'd ask.

Cheers!!

Cypher

cgswami
03-04-2008, 01:56 PM
I just need to confirm this here

I have Messiah 2.5 workstation, if i wan to upgrade to the V3 with 64 bit controls what is the cost ??

Ulven
03-04-2008, 02:06 PM
$189 for the upgrade from workstation.
$149 for the 64 bit and multi core licence.
$0 for the hair module.

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