CGtalk Matte challenge - ideas this way ..

[Suirebit]

So we're gonna have a new challenge soon? great, it was about time :) Count me in

How about a Space Scene? would be something different from what we're used to see...

[Artbot]

What keeps happening to the old posts in this forum? This question of "what to do for the next challenge" comes up every few months (!) and I simply want to reiterate my old sggestions, but they are nowhere to be found.

[everlite]

What keeps happening to the old posts in this forum? This question of "what to do for the next challenge" comes up every few months (!) and I simply want to reiterate my old suggestions, but they are nowhere to be found.

Hi Richard,

Sorry man, be really greatful if you could repost your suggestions again. This is going to be a definitive thread for ideas building up to the Official challenge.

Best,
Dave.

[degerardo]

What about challenge Red Alert 4? The 3th one is comming so what about to do something like that? I mean it could be a good challenge...mixing the war weapons, war buildings with technology and etc. But there will be a one rule.. you have to put a story into the matte-painting, where will be clear what`s going on. The challenge will be good for ideas for maybe next RA4 and some of us will get a good name in EA :) thats good I think.

Or another idea..., what about Consistence War? It will be about World War 2, I mean how should World War2 looks like with technology they had ideas to finish, but they didn`t. I hope you know what I mean. For example scene with German UFO on one side and ultrasonic tank from Russia in another side.. only the thing will be to keep a story of WW2. On internet ae a lot of informations about that :)

I think it could be a good challenge too :)

I can make a new thread here and rules and time/date shedule, link for inspiration etc and etc.

So? :)

[Rockhoppermedia]

That consistence war idea sounds awesome, reminds me of the eighties film Biggles where the germans had invented a sonic weapon. Absolutely inspiring film. Vote me in.


Rich

[everlite]

Thanks degerardo, some interesting ideas, liking the WW2 suggestion. Hold up for the moment, get a few people in on the act :)

[SpetsK]

I like that there is a new challenge coming! War theme...well not my kind of thingie, but would be interesting to see if I can come up with a pic like that. I have no better ideas eighter. Maybe an old good fantasy theme...the eternal war of good and bad...some interesting landscape view.

[Rockhoppermedia]

I am working on the HG wells novel First Men in the Moon, i took the afternoon off to watch it. I noticed that there were other books that he had written.


I proposed something earlier this week on another thread. But i am full of ideas how about a HG Wells challenge using the title of one his books and produce a painting to illustrate the book. There is great scope for genres fantasy, science fiction, war, discovery.

The tilte of the painting will be whatever book it is. You pick a book title and illustrate it, This would also create a interesting final gallery.

Rich

[RQuack]

I like Rich's idea personally. I'm a big sucker for old sci-fi/horror so something like maybe recreating a scene from a movie with an updated look would be cool. Of course it owuldn't be an actual movie but something generic enoguh that it would work. Would be great! :thumbsup:

[Artbot]

I like the "alternate history" idea, too. But we should remember that matte painting is not really about telling stories the way illustrations do. If we want to keep this anywhere close to a "real world" challenge, it should probably stay in the realm of establishing shot or background extension types of images. Remember, too, that those "What if Germany won the war" sort of fictions may be offensive to some people.

The last challenge was pretty good one for showing off matte painting/PS skills, as well as letting the artists be more creative with the choices necessary, which isn't usually the case in actual matte painting jobs where nearly every detail is dictated by the AD.

In any event, I'd like to see a challenge where an existing image is altered, as that's typically what professional matte painters do. Sure, there are sci-fi scenes created completely from scratch, but I personally don't have time for something like that. :) And no animation or match-moving would be my preference, but I realize there are others who want to do this sort of thing and have the time for it.

[everlite]

I'd like to encourage everyone to come up with at least one unique idea themselves.

So that's your first creative challenge :)

Plus if you have any thoughts on what would make a good matte challenge. And equally what makes a bad one?? be nice to hear.

Personally i think it should reflect a real world brief, i feel way too many people come into this, quite innocently not quite realising the difference between a matte painting and a straight piece of illustrative art. There's a big difference in the two and the challenge should explain and educate the role and function of a matte painting as well as challenge those already familiar with the subject.


Dave.

[everlite]

And no animation or match-moving would be my preference, but I realize there are others who want to do this sort of thing and have the time for it.

Just to pick up on that, personally i think these skills are becoming more and more needed, especially projected mattes, and where possible i'd like to encourage those who wish to use their skills in this area to feel free to do so. So how could you do a challenge where this could be included but still remain equally fair to someone who is less advance?

[Stefan-Morrell]

Just to pick up on that, personally i think these skills are becoming more and more needed, especially projected mattes, and where possible i'd like to encourage those who wish to use their skills in this area to feel free to do so. So how could you do a challenge where this could be included but still remain equally fair to someone who is less advance?

I'll add a vote for an animated version,if only because that's how a matte is to be seen.
have any of the matte challenges in here ever featured animation?,camera projection? etc..the basic things all digital matte painters need to be familiar with.

maybe you could split the challenge up into stills & animations?

[MarkyG]

Not so long ago I finished reading The Road which had some fantastic imagery in it. Some was only hinted at which made it all the more powerful. But it could be fun to work on a nuclear winter type deal.

Anyway I'm up for a new challenge!





markg

[pkneeshaw]

I know I don't post here much but I read a lot and the HG Wells idea does sound like a good one to me.

[bobzilla]

Well, I'm not a matte painter (but I play one on TV :wise:) but I love good matte paintings.

This might be too simple for you folks, bu maybe have a dirty, grungy city scene (litter, vacant lots, abandoned buildings, etc.) and beautifying it.

Or, the reverse, nice suburban scene and "dirty it up". MAKE the houses abandoned, add litter, etc.

I know the big landscapes and space scenes are fun, but the subtle ones can be effective, too. I couldn;t believe the "visual effects" that were in "The Zodiac" moview a few years ago. Would have never thought.

Maybe someday I'll get the courage to participate...

[everlite]

Ok guys, come on now :) get them thinking caps on, we need some ideas that are completely unthought of, something very original yet still professional.

What kind of challenge do you think wouldn't be good? might be an idea to voice what you don't like also?

Personally if i see another post apocalyptic matte im going to scream :) there tends to be a bias trend towards this kind of theme, ie war/end, i guess it's an interesting idea but far from been truely original :)

Lets try to collate lots of different ideas before focusing on any one.

Dave.

[divi]

what about a re-interpretation of a classical movie scene e.g. king kong climbing the empire state but with a medieval version of the environment. the challenge would be to make the scene recognizable without using any characters.
would also work quite well with an additional camera-mapping challenge.

[degerardo]

We can do also something in Top-Down view :) there was no challenge about that..

Also what about the idea to do something different..., what was not here already. I mean this should be a challeng-to do some new style(idea) matte-painting, which we haven`t seen before. :thumbsup:

[RQuack]

How about something that involves more than just buildings, like a big hangar or docks that would need a big extension and let us do some vehicles and warehouses or something like that. Something that has an older matte shot feel to it but totally practical for use in a film today. Maybe something that would put us in somewhere rather than more distance shots.

[Timmay]

How about a period piece?

Take a plate of a place that existed awhile ago....like a street in NY or a colonial town....and paint out modern elements and add things that would have been there during that specific period?

People here would have to do actual research to get the matte right and at the same time they may learn a little history. Plus it's invisible work.

[SpetsK]

Grabbing the idea from degerardo, I think top down view is an awesome idea! Why not create GoogleEarth-like satellite view!

I personally like creating maps very much and I have done similar things in the past. Industrial or nature or alien..maybe there should be some theme to hold on. It is very much matte related and can be even animated - flyover! There could be a height demand, like picture taken from 800m or 2km (most interesting I assume, so some details can be recognized; trees, houses). Tasks to remove clouds, edit terrain or edit ground heights. Add structures change foliage...endless possibilities.

Hmm...a clear task: if we can find some great picture with nice geographical view. The task would be to add foliage and a city or structures there, both to fit in the location one decides to choose, desert, jungle or some wierd planet.

I think GoogleEarth team would not be against the idea to use their images for educational purposes...

Some inspirational links to pictures I found:
http://www.airventure.org/2004/gallery/images/073104_satellite.jpg
http://www.satimagingcorp.com/galleryimages/high-resolution-satellite-picture-ikonos-puerto-rico.jpg
http://www.spdconline.org/history/images/BrooklineMap.JPG

From my point of view good competition has several steps and tasks to accomplish. Tasks like the NHM challenge had. Step 1: clean the plate, step 2: expand the plate etc. And then publishing those steps for others to see and receive some crits.

This way, is there a prize or not, the greatest prize would be the knowledge and experience for every participant.

[MarkyG]

I like the idea of a challenging perspective. No horizon visible. Top down would be fun or a variation thereof. Maybe change the scale to something really small. Macro style type imagery. It can still be epic.


markg

[SamsonsReaper]

the top down idea is cool, but i dont think its very useful. I mean if ppl can just stitch together googlemaps or what not i dont see a challenge in that....sorry. Dont get me wrong its a nice exersize but it restricts the learning abit.

So here is what i propose...

We need to practice the invisible area. Since that is what a mattepainter is striving for.Some of you might say that this conflicts with the fantasy styled mattes. But i would say those mattes need to look credible and strive to be invisible. The importance in those mattes is to find the fine line where something is not overused and convincing making it credible for the viewer. I am sure you are all familiar with Dussos work. There is a huge dose of inspiration for that type of work.

My idea:
*city(ancient or modern) i particularly picked this because these are aaaaaaalways hard to work with
*an occlusion plate to start on, instead of a photographed plate.

edit:the matte has to be cameramapped by the user ;) so the contributions are mov files instead of still images.

[Stefan-Morrell]

*the winning contribution gets his matte camera projected and presented in a mov file .Since the geometry is allready modelled the projection is a quickie.


wouldn't including camera projection as part of the challenge be more apropriate,rather than having that as a 'prize'..what do you learn if someone else does the projection for you?

I know i've said it before but it's worth saying again..'a matte painting isn't meant to be seen as a still image' we need to encourage people to make matte paintings & not just nice looking environment pics

that said I'd also been keen on something modern & maybe urban(please,no more arched hallways/rooms)

I'd be very keen on a real world assignment..we have plenty of pro matte painters here so make a brief similar to any professional job

[SamsonsReaper]

sure that could be useful. I just find it really boring to do haha.

[erilaz]

Some sort of massive sinkhole would be interesting to do, in an unusal place like the middle of a stadium or city carpark.

Either that or a complete day to night transitional matte over three stages from a harshly lit plate (let's just make it difficult).:D

[degerardo]

Ok, guy`s...:scream: I think its time to put some deathline here to finish ideas and choice one.
Let say until Sunday..or end of this month..
Because this will take a long time to talk about ideas and no start to release the challenge.
I would like to ask JamesVFX to choice one from them and just to say some start/end time/date. What you think? :buttrock:

[nickmarshallvfx]

How about a location change? I think it would be cool to take a plate if someone can shoot something, and maybe change the location from a suburb somewhere to a big city.
I read a lot about how the TV series Heroes was shot in one city and they used matte paintings to make it look like new york, and this kind of idea seemed cool to me.

It would force people to do a bit of research too to actually find out about the architecture and do a professional photoreal job.

Just another idea... :shrug:

Nick

[everlite]

Thanks guys, some interesting ideas coming through there :) Levi i agree with you on the invisible matte suggestion.

I'm very tempted by the camera mapping idea too, this is something i would love to see people do as its an important role for any matte artist to learn and understand. However i still need to find a way in which to incorporate this into a challenge that's balanced for both those who will be just doing straight mattes that don't have access to 3d programs and those who want to take it further. The obvious idea is to split the challenge, but the problem with that comes if only one or two people enter the 3d category.

Maybe i could do a video tutorial in blender (which has the tools for camera mapping) this is free and would allow everyone to have access to this.

Thanks again, keep the ideas coming, a good few weeks yet :)

Best,
Dave.

[eyecon]

Here is my suggestion. An invisible matte BUT it should be a cyclorama! Meaning the artist should create a mattepainting that revolves 360 degrees and is seamless. Realistic meaning no fantasy mattes BUT ancient mattes are included.

This way 3D and/or 2D can be applied. The artist must also submit a MOV file that will showcase the cyclorama Image and all its beauty.

To make it a little harder, we should start with a plate and do set extensions and may (or may not) choose from a variety of images that has been chosen, maybe 2-5 images would be cool.

:D

[everlite]

Ok lets see, anyone object to making this a challenge that involves adding some kind of camera move? using projections, cam mapping, cards ect ..

It would be interesting to suggest that a few rules will be that you have to create a camera move and incorporate moving elements etc..

My only concern would be that this would only be accessible to a few, a matte painting challenge should also be open to those who are completely new to the subject with no restriction on technical requirements. Ie, to enter this challenge, the most you should need to know is photoshop.

Hmmm, so which way does the balance weigh? let me know what you think.

Dave.

[RQuack]

Well, I think everyone should try to do a camera move or something along that line because it's pretty standard and most people should want to at least try it. But some may not be interested in that step yet or, like you said, have access to that sort of thing. What happened last challenge? I know there was like an extra part where you could do it if you wanted but not real sure what happened with that part of it since I didn't do one the first time around. Maybe something extra or separate for those who do an animation or cam. map? Not real sure it should be required but it should definitely be encouraged.

-Ryan

[Rockhoppermedia]

I am happy with a camera move, cyclorama is out of my experience and reach however. How about a live element a city shot with moving traffic and you have to create a matte invisible extension. For those wthout the software to do this they can enter a clean plate to win a prize. The next prize would be for a live element included. The ILM wannabes can provide a matte with a moving element and camera move/flythru. There will be no overall winner but three.

In summary

CG society= Clean plate and extension
CG society= extension and moving element
CG society= extension primary element and camera move

Lets make this fair for newcomers, but push the ILM wannabees out of there comfort zone.

Regards

Richie

PS Photoshop is expensive enough, let alone maya, zbrush, after effects lets think about the people who can afford the software. Like me!.Lets make this fair and accesible.

[Stefan-Morrell]

"Maybe i could do a video tutorial in blender (which has the tools for camera mapping) "


here's a video tut for camera projection in blender ,found on google
http://www.blendernation.com/2006/05/31/videotutorial-camera-mapping-in-blender/

Voodoo is free & good for tracking
http://www.digilab.uni-hannover.de/download.html

[everlite]

I am happy with a camera move, cyclorama is out of my experience and reach however. How about a live element a city shot with moving traffic and you have to create a matte invisible extension. For those wthout the software to do this they can enter a clean plate to win a prize. The next prize would be for a live element included. The ILM wannabes can provide a matte with a moving element and camera move/flythru. There will be no overall winner but three.



I have a pretty good consumer HD camera, could go out and shoots something.


here's a video tut for camera projection in blender ,found on google
http://www.blendernation.com/2006/0...ing-in-blender/ (http://www.blendernation.com/2006/05/31/videotutorial-camera-mapping-in-blender/)

Voodoo is free & good for tracking
http://www.digilab.uni-hannover.de/download.html


Yeh, thats pretty much the only one that exists :) a little old but good enough. You can also find some Icarus tutorials on the site by these guys:

http://www.peerlessproductions.com/tuts.html

You also see another quick demonstration of blender projection at:
http://www.blender.org/features-gallery/features/feature-videos/
(called UV project mod - half way down)

[degerardo]

Ok guy`s, camera mapping/projection is fine, I like this and I am for that.What about to divide chellenge to two...for begginers and no-beginers...Its mean withot camera projection and with camera projection hmmm??? And guy`s you forgot something :) the idea and theme of matte-painting challenge...

Lets finish idea and than the rest :)

[SamsonsReaper]

i actually have 2 pdf tutorials for camera mapping in maya, if you guys are interrested

[Rockhoppermedia]

"Maybe i could do a video tutorial in blender (which has the tools for camera mapping) "

That would be fantastic if you did, the one you linked to is ok, but no offence it was like trying to listen to Beavis and Butthead, way to quick for me to understand.

thank you

Dave,

Yep go out and use your camera, would nice to get some shots of Leeds pimped up!

Thing is on this site artists tend to forget that live action combined with there paintings is the aim of matte painting.

Cheers

Rich

PS I propose a invisible matte of a skyscraper building site.

[Stefan-Morrell]

That would be fantastic if you did, the one you linked to is ok, but no offence it was like trying to listen to Beavis and Butthead, way to quick for me to understand. .

that was everlites quote i think..I use 3dsmax for camera projection:thumbsup:

might be an idea to have links to various software tuts on projections if we do go ahead with it,at least that way no one will be coming in not knowing how to do it

[TomasWarren]

I realise that this might be slightly OT, but just out of interest, Stefan, when you create your expansive environments is it projected or all genuinely UV Mapped/textured? I've looked at/admired your work and as you seem to have some pretty complex geometry, i sure don't think i'd have the patience to wade through all that texturing!...or maybe that's just because i'm slow, i don't know. In any case, however you do it it renders some pretty nice results that's for sure.

As for the thread, i get tired of apocalyptic/war/ruined city etc mattes, i like the idea of the period piece which someone mentioned.
How about a 'nostalgia' theme? This would effectively take the idea of an 'idealised yesterday', where you would have to change a current photo to an earlier period (i'm talking within the 20th century here), say 1940's or even 1060's or something and make it look idealised, as if seen through the eyes of an old man who claims that everything was much better when he was in his youth!
For reference think of Chris Stoski's New York examples from Matte Painting 1, except maybe without all the people n stuff.
Just my £0.02 ;)

[SamsonsReaper]

just a side note here..


considering there is a majority of maya used in production, i think there should be a tutorial available in maya. It could happen that when you sit in a studio they dont have blender or cinema4d(or other softwares), then it would be nice to be able to use maya.

its worth a thaught

[everlite]

Hey Levi,

From personal experience most of the studios i've worked with use Max, tends to be more standard. Blender is simply more accessible to those without a 3d program and can do the job surprisingly well. Though i agree a maya tutorial would be good too, any experience?? :)

Dave.

[degerardo]

The name of the thread is going to change to something else :rolleyes:
But, we still dont know, what we will be doing. I mean idea of the challenge.
Please lets finish the idea of the challenge first and than talk about the rules etc.
What you think guy`s?
I mean if it will be continue in this way, we`ll lost the point and it will be just another thread.
Camera projection/mapping is a good question, I agree, but the point of the challenge is still unknown.

I think, its time to make things more cleeeear :deal: :buttrock:

[Stefan-Morrell]

I realise that this might be slightly OT, but just out of interest, Stefan, when you create your expansive environments is it projected or all genuinely UV Mapped/textured? I've looked at/admired your work and as you seem to have some pretty complex geometry, i sure don't think i'd have the patience to wade through all that texturing!...or maybe that's just because i'm slow, i don't know. In any case, however you do it it renders some pretty nice results that's for sure.


99% of my environments are fully uv'd & textured,viewable from all angles..but that's only because I make them to be sold as commercial content..if I were strictly doing matte paintings then probably only the forground elements would be in full 3d.
I've only done 2 or 3 projections,just enough to know how it's done

[SamsonsReaper]

Hey Levi,

From personal experience most of the studios i've worked with use Max, tends to be more standard. Blender is simply more accessible to those without a 3d program and can do the job surprisingly well. Though i agree a maya tutorial would be good too, any experience?? :)

Dave.

they use maya mostly here :) but i did notice they used max when i was working in UK. Maybe a changing trend. Either way we should definitely have tutorials available for these softwares.

[Artbot]

I'm still intrigued by the ideas about alternate history, and an old suggestion about large caves or airplane hangars. As a kid, I always saw old abandoned barns and hangers and imagined there was something amazing and fantastic inside them. This got me thinking that an exercise in contrast would be cool. An example would be a far-out alien contraption or spaceship, but placed in an old, dilapidated hanger building. Like something amazing had been placed into the hanger by someone who later died and it was forgotten about. The hangar could be the plate, if we can find one to use. Or maybe a simple 3D stucture could be supplied and painted over (another chance at employing another matte technique). The alien ship (or time-travel pod, or whatever) device would be designed by each artist, then built or painted into the room. The idea is to have a classic, broken down, very large room like a hanger with a hyper-modern or alien thing sitting in it. The opportunities for detailing and dramatic lighting would be endless.

[everlite]

Hey guys,

Some interesting ideas coming through. A lot to think about. Whichever theme the challenge runs with it should be one that appeals to all, generic but interesting, simple but challenging.

A few suggestions that i personally liked:

Eighth wonder of the world

Science fair 2200

Ice age

Lunar city

Celestial graveyard (derelict scene in space)

ET homeworld (crazy) :)

Anyway, should have something started within a week or two.

-Dave.

[everlite]

I'm also interested in the alternative timeline, but i think as it stands its way too open and needs a few rules to pin it down a little. Also it can't have any political element, ie what would it be like if Hitler took over the world etc .. needs to be influence by more natural/environmental events, ie if we didn't discover electricty, if we discovered some other form of power, what if we still used steam, or maybe the event that struck earth 65 million years ago never happened, what would it be like? ...

Dave.

[bechira]

Here are some 3d studio max tutorials:

camera mapping: http://www.simplycg.net/viewtopic.php?t=1745
camera matching: http://www.the3dstudio.com/product_details.aspx?id_product=469

[Rockhoppermedia]

I'm still intrigued by the ideas about alternate history, and an old suggestion about large caves or airplane hangars. As a kid, I always saw old abandoned barns and hangers and imagined there was something amazing and fantastic inside them. This got me thinking that an exercise in contrast would be cool. An example would be a far-out alien contraption or spaceship, but placed in an old, dilapidated hanger building. Like something amazing had been placed into the hanger by someone who later died and it was forgotten about. The hangar could be the plate, if we can find one to use. Or maybe a simple 3D stucture could be supplied and painted over (another chance at employing another matte technique). The alien ship (or time-travel pod, or whatever) device would be designed by each artist, then built or painted into the room. The idea is to have a classic, broken down, very large room like a hanger with a hyper-modern or alien thing sitting in it. The opportunities for detailing and dramatic lighting would be endless.

Cardington Hall hangars in Bedford England would be perfect for a matte painting of this type, Unsure of what I am talking about Look at the Film "Zeppelin". Also used for the Batman Begins film as a makeshift studio. Absolutely huge they housed the R101 airships.

I have a idea for a challenge, Niagara falls has dried up what is in there? Where the water once was. Be nice to see a dried up waterfall as a matte,it will put some matte artists out of there comfort zone for sure (you know who you are!).LOL

Tongue in cheek yours

Rich

[Artbot]

Yeah, an LTA hanger is exactly what I was picturing. I used to occasionally drive by the LTA complex at Moffett Field. Here's a couple of nice pics along these lines:

http://www.airfields-freeman.com/NC/Weeksville_NC_aerostat_02.jpg

http://www.rootsweb.com/~engbdf/images/Cardington-2.jpg

http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/USPics/moffett/images/moffett14a.jpg

http://www.peacham.com/travel/images/Hangar11024.jpg

[Rockhoppermedia]

Hi Rich,

thanks for demonstrating what I was on about, those type of structures are awe inspiring

Cheers

richie

[Suirebit]

I still think the space idea is the most original and interesting theme we could have.....seriously now, how many space matte paintings have you seen? And space sci-fi movies need mattes too :) Think of star wars, star trek etc.

Other than that another interesting theme would be Ancient Alien Artefact

[JJASSO]

I agree about there are only few space matte paintings and it could be cool if you want to build a big space station and a background planet detailed as hell !, the alternate reality sound very cool too, or maybe some city inside a huge cavern or cave, an antique civilization mixed with alien technology , a city over the sea and xtreme weather conditions, I'm looking forward to your final choice

[Artbot]

...seriously now, how many space matte paintings have you seen?

Not many, because I don't think that a space station floating in space can really be considered a matte painting. Don't get me wrong, I love spaceships and the like, it just doesn't seem like an ideal matte subject. Any kind of motion or action would generally bump it into the category of visual effects.

I'd still love a cave or giant hanger scene, though.

I've long had this story idea about a nano-growth experiment gone bad where some nano builder keeps replicating itself until it's the size of a whole city or state. I was at the sculpture garden last weekend and I thought - wouldn't it be funny if aliens visited and decided to give us a giant sculptural "gift" for our planet. I mean something so BIG that we wouldn't know what to make of it, but obviously couldn't refuse it! Think of something like the St Louis arch, but with each foot planted in a different state! The artifact (mechanical, organic, whatever) would be up to the artist to design, but it could be added to a fairly stock plate of a country or city scene.

[TomasWarren]

well the space idea does pose problems, but then again what doesn't? That's the whole idea :)
I agree i don't think, say, an xwing with a starry background constitutes a matte painting, but i think people were suggesting ideas more in the 'giagantic space station' type area, ie. the station would be the focus, with maybe smaller ships circling around etc

I personally think this works quite well, as you could get some nice subtle movement in there with a projection, and really suggest the grand scale of the environment

[Rockhoppermedia]

Competition Idea

Bermuda triangle the truth!

All the lost shipping ,aircraft found on a vast alien craft. Which happens to be a alien space museum

Brief,

Original alien design no boiler plate technology, clean lines

No aliens in the matte CGI dept responsibility

Must include 1 modern ship and 1 period ship sail/steam

Must include ww2 aircraft or zeppelin/airship

Alien small craft tethering or working

Mayan or eygyptian architecture.

The space craft is a floating museum going solar system to system collecting pieces. As well as Earth exhibits there are other planet exhibits there.

The museum is anchored of Earth and must include the moon and earth in shot.

Two categories for the comp

Still Matte ( should be able to use camera pan or dolly.

2.5d Matte for a pull out then track left camera move for a timing of 4 secs

Both mattes at 16:9 format

How about that for a competition then?

Lets stop gassing and start doing. Dave please may you provide a jpeg of a artifact that you would like in shot. Could you pm me please to discuss putting this comp in place.

Cheers

Rich

[degerardo]

I agree also with Bermuda Triangle! Lets do it.

But I have some comments for the rules.. :rolleyes:
If there will be those things-it will be a chaos at the final result.
I am for those ship idea 1 modern ship and 1 period ship sail/steam + one ww2 aircraft or zeppelin/airship, and some kind of architecture-but the atchitecture should be more free for us. I mean what about, if want to do a little bit different style/design of architecture? Not exactly Egyptian or Mayan but let say Egyptian + some kind of scify to put there... hm? :rolleyes:

And thats right! Lets do it!
Start time 1st of March 00:00 time
Deathline: 30th of April 00:00 time

So it will be 2.months for that. I think its enough.. ...?...

[degerardo]

To JamesVFX - can you please choice one theme for the competition and make a thread for that? We wanna start :buttrock:


:)

[Stefan-Morrell]

wouldn't a ship be done more as a practical element or full cg element?..rather than as a matte?

[Rockhoppermedia]

Cheers DG

Yep lets do it!

Richie

[Rockhoppermedia]

wouldn't a ship be done more as a practical element or full cg element?..rather than as a matte?

I was thinking about this Stefan yep you are right. However the ship is a element to be integated into one of the exhibits. However you want to play it. I was hoping that either James or Dave could supply a photo or entrants carry out some research and push them out of there comfort zone.

This is your challenge as well so if you have any ideas please bring them to the table.

Looking forward to your suggestions

Rich

[everlite]

The space idea's cool, maybe a space graveyard, that can be quite an open brief, lots of old hulks and broken ships, or maybe an astroid belt full of debris. The station idea could be good, not sure, maybe an isolated collony living out on the fringe, needs a little more to tie down a brief i think, need another component to the brief.

Going down the space route does completely divert away from the previous suggestions of an invisible matte, any objections? :)

Stefan, look at all the starwars mattes, they were all painted. Though it could be done in 3d and have a nice projected camera move around it.

Hmmm, im liking this idea.

In the end i want this to be fair and unbias, by that some people might not like the space theme, it does weigh a little on the sci-fi genre, whatever we do it needs to be appealing to a broader audience than just us :) and im sure there are themes that are more generic.

But again, the space idea appeals to me :)

Dave.

[SamsonsReaper]

hehe even if its space theme it can be done invisible, invisible doesnt mean "today" timewise so :).

Lots of detail to be worked on in that theme..... I like it. You have my go ahead on this :D

[Suirebit]

Space graveyard really sounds like a great idea! You have my vote for it :)

[Artbot]

Going down the space route does completely divert away from the previous suggestions of an invisible matte, any objections?


No objection, but how does a space scene qualify as a matte painting?



Stefan, look at all the starwars mattes, they were all painted. Though it could be done in 3d and have a nice projected camera move around it.


Just becase SW was a "space movie" doesn't mean it was full of matte painting of space scenes. Yes, there were a couple of planets originally painted on glass, but the majority of the mattes were buildings, forests, cities, or landscapes on planet surfaces or in or around the DS. In fact, there isn't a single space scene in SW I would call a traditional matte scene.

I like the idea of a mp challenge to incorporate the traditional techniques that mattes most frequently rely upon: Adding fantastic elements to existing plates, or scene extensions. A space theme address neither of these.

[RQuack]

Yeah, I somewhat agree. I defintiely think a matte can be done especially with a space station or boneyard as it'll be big a big structure(s) that we can keep static and I would definitely be up for it but I would also like to have an exisiting plate that we an work off of. Making mattes out of scratch is fun but I would love to have something to work on.

[Suirebit]

artbot> While I understand your point, I have to make you aware that a nice nebula and a planet in the background can be considered a matte painting too for an action set in space...maybe a battle?

It's true that 99,99% of the mattes are set *on-planet* but that doesn't mean those off-planet are not MP...that's discrimination, heh :D

[Artbot]

Yeah, I somewhat agree. I defintiely think a matte can be done especially with a space station or boneyard as it'll be big a big structure(s) that we can keep static and I would definitely be up for it but I would also like to have an exisiting plate that we an work off of. Making mattes out of scratch is fun but I would love to have something to work on.

So a large, crashed alien ship/artifact/sculpture/time machine/thingamabob somewhere on the earth's surface? I'm in!

[everlite]

Oh i feel we're coming close to something here :)

These were the SW mattes i was thinking off:

http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Wars/Special/DSsize/DS2trench01.jpg

http://index.echostation.com/trilogy/hangarbay327.jpg

http://theforce.net/swtc/Pix/books/scrapbook/eparrival.jpg

I think this was a half matte and model, could be wrong:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/ee/DeathStar2.jpg/250px-DeathStar2.jpg

Yeh there's quite a few leading back through cinematic history :)

Dave.

[Rockhoppermedia]

If you go back to the 1950s a great deal of science fiction films and creature flicks required quite heavy matte painting work because of the low budget costs. Nowadays television has incorporated this premise such as Dr Who, Smallville, heroes. So please dont dismiss it.

One of the best matte paintings was created by a thumb and a tub of vaseline (petroleum jelly). For those effects afficionados out there it convinced a whole generation of people and stood for twenty years as one of the greatest effects shots. this was replaced in the last couple of years by CGI.

I hear you guys thinking what is this dude on about?

Star Wars, the speeder shot racing across the desert of tatooinee was solved by having a glass plate fitted in front of the camera. There was a thick smear of petroleum jelly on the glass which hid the wheels of the speeder vehicle all the camera operator had to do was keep it in line with the speeder on the panning shot. Convincing the audience the craft was airbourne.

This is the most effective and cheapest ever matte paint in the history of cinema.

The lesson here guys is try and keep it simple.

Matte paint is a method to convince the audience that something is what it is. I have had the opportunity to view the mattes from Star Wars and Empire. I was shocked that a single stroke of a paintbrush had convinced me that a antennae array was a antennae arrary.

Matte painting as a fine art has its place, this challenge is way out of the box with comfort zone, imagination. I would like to push matte painters on this forum away from subjects that they are comfortable with. This is to stretch you as individuals and to strengthen you as a community.

I can compile a list of space dramas that use matte painting and be here all day. If you want to argue that space is demeaning for a matte painter to do as you want to do practice your invisible art then I suggest picking up the phone and direct dialling Ryan Church and telling him. Oh by the way the project he was working on is called Avatar made by some bloke called Jim Cameron.

I would like to start the challenge of by doing it to brief the same as any production house will supply.

You will get the script entry
You will get a thumbnail and storyboard relevant to the shot
You will be told how many frames the shot will take place
You will get a quick brief on the shot by a director
You will get a greenscreen element to include
You will recieve a deadline

In essence you will get what a working matte painter has to deal with for their job. You will have to make a decision if the shot is only 54 frames on a 25fps shot do you need to be as highly detailed? A challenge based on real working conditions.

Matte painting as fine art has its place. I would like to get away from that and back to VFX down and dirty ie efficient and cost effective. Just like the vaseline smear.

I have probaly upset a few people.

yours

Rich

[RQuack]

So a large, crashed alien ship/artifact/sculpture/time machine/thingamabob somewhere on the earth's surface? I'm in!

:rolleyes: I'm just saying I could go either way I guess.

[everlite]

Play nice people :)

[Rockhoppermedia]

The death star in the first film was a matte paint in the last of the series it was replaced by a massive model


Plus I will promise to play nice, just traumatised by the Earthquake this morning

yours

Rich

[Artbot]

I never said that matte paintings were not used in "space movies". Many have been. But these SW mattes sort of prove my point. Take away the starfields and they are essentially just rooms and buildings. There's nothing very "space" about them other than they are in a movie that sometimes takes place in space. As for the planet/nebula image, I'd simply call that an illustration. Adding a space battle in front of it doesn't make it a matte painting, just an effects shot. Is this image a "matte painting"?:

http://www.shawnolson.net/media/art_1_1079_2.jpg

Matte shots are never conceived to be an exercise in showing off a matte shot. They are used because they are cheaper and faster than building full size, or even miniature, sets. Those unbelievably skilled painters who did the SW mattes were employed for a reason - they saved the production time & money. They were called "mattes" because of the methodology used: Painting on glass and optically printed onto a single piece of film using an optical hold-out mask (or "matte"), and not because of their subject matter.

If those exact shots were done for a film today, I doubt they would be fully painted. Probably all 3D or a combo of 3D and paint-over. But my point here is, since they are not trying to "match" anything (surface lighting, atmo, environmental elements, etc), they are not very good candidates for an exercise in matte painting and fall more towards illustration.

A "space graveyard" is a cool image for sure, but it's more of an illustration exercise. If I were working on a film that called for a space graveyard scene, I would probably model the ships practically, photograph them, create a digital asteroid field, and composite the hell out of the elements. I would not call this method a "matte painting", even if some elements were painted in

Again, I reiterate that a matte painting (not a practical visual effect, i.e. models, foreground miniatures, etc) generally consists of adding fantastic elements to a static or live action plate, or they are set extensions. Space scenes are great, but they don't represent a typical matte challenge of combining disparate (and often real-world) elements into a single scene. Even though a space station orbiting a planet may appear to be a "matte painting", and may even be created as a digital painting, I would not call such a shot a matte.

[Artbot]

But to get back to the issue here...

I would prefer this methodolgy:

-Real world environment bg plate

-Large, fantastic object of some kind to be created either by 2D painting or 3D underlay with 2D overpaint. (I really just want to work on my over-paints!)

-Motion would be optional (either a camera move or perhaps animated environmental elements like rain, snow, smoke, waterfalls, etc.)

Can we just pick something already so I can stop ranting about the definition of matte painting?

[everlite]

Hi Artbot, hold them horses for the mo :)

I understand you're anxious, there's a few reasons for why i'm leaving this post up until the beginning of next month, well Monday to exact :) which is when im looking to officially start the challenge. To give everyone enough chance to realise its here, granted everyone in this end of the woods knows about it now but i'd like to make sure everyone has there say :)

Adding to that its nice when we have professional judges and prizes which in itself takes time to arrange. So please forgive the wait.

Best,
Dave.

[everlite]

Hey guys,

Thanks for your patiences :) i'm currently putting together the files for this challenge, so maybe another day or two then we can get this thing going :thumbsup:

Dave.

[SpetsK]

Anxiously waiting... :)

[RiKToR]

sound interesting... I look foward to actually finishing one these things one day.

[Suirebit]

Dave, so, will it start next week? :)

[everlite]

Hey Suirebit,

I'm just juggling a few urgent jobs this week so not had much free time. Pretty much have everything setup though, will be ready in the next few days :)

Best.

[Suirebit]

Alright, great, looking forward to it :)

[Rockhoppermedia]

Cue 2001 parody,

Dave are you there dave? What are you doing dave? Daisy daisy howwwww dooos your garden grow? LOL

Looking forward to whatever you are cooking up there. I am starting to work on that still of the restaurant interior in the meantime.

Rich

[everlite]

Yep still here, just multi tasking a few jobs that came in the last week, this challenge been one of them :) If all goes well its looking like Monday, pretty much have it all together at the mo, just a few things to tie up.

Word of warning, i'm leaning very must towards a live project with this one, or simulation such.

Stick with me mate :thumbsup:

[newmanhyde]

Thanks for doing this dave , cant wait

[Rockhoppermedia]

Forum Members

Dave has to finalize some parts of this challenge, but he is a working professional and has been burning the midnight oil on this one. He is extremely busy at the moment with other projects. I would like to thank Dave in advance for the time and effort he has been putting behind the scenes on this challenge.

So watch this space it is coming

So please let Dave crack on with he has to do and it will be here soon.

Many thanks

Rich :thumbsup:

[Timmay]

Are ya ready Dave? :)

[Rockhoppermedia]

Read my last post I know you are keen as are others, Dave is working hard on this one, trust me, just needs a little space, yes I am close protection detail LOL


Rich

[everlite]

Hey people, so finally after months, years and centuries (it feels like that) :) We have another challenge, up and running with full steam :) Check it out in the main forum.

A few notes on how and why I decided to go with this theme.

To begin with it was a difficult choice coming up with a theme that was original, open to creative exploration while still educating the subject of matte painting and the role of a matte painter. For myself and others I spoke with, including some of the biggest names in the game this was one of the key goals for the challenge, it had to remind people what matte painting is and more importantly what it isn’t. One comment that frequently came up was that this challenge had to refocus the line between matte painting and concept art. To quote one comment:


“99% of matte paintings are in live-action movies and the main challenge is to create a photo real piece, not just concept art. It's not a concept art competition, it's a matte painting competition right. :) “

With that in mind I decided against a few themes that were strong contenders and went for something that was more grounded to the kind of brief a matte painter might expect to be given in the real world, while providing one of the common requests above, alternate world/timeline. So this should strike a good balance.

Anyway enough talking for now, its 4.30am and I’m rambling my way to sleep :) So I hope this challenge is educational while still been fun :) As this is a team effort, and you been the team, all thoughts are very welcome.

All the best,

Dave.:thumbsup:

[everlite]

Direct link:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=196&t=607390

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