recruiting help to make my game

[Michael-Williamson]

Umm, this sort of thread starts lots when enthusiastic beginners first discover the game engine.


I'm not surprised no one replied as you haven't given anyone a REASON to think that they should invest there time in your project. That first paragraph kills it off straight away!

If you're serious, you need to try and "pitch" why working with you would be a good idea, but I'm guessing you have no track record, you are unwilling to tell people the idea (maybe you haven't got one yet?) and are obviously a beginner at blender and the game engine...

These are hardly qualities that will get a lot of people lining up to join you!

Try doing some small scale projects on your own, learn what you can from it, perhaps offer help on other peoples projects first....

If you've done that you might be able to link to it in this sort of post to gain some interest from others....

"Ok, I have an Idea for a game.... I have a design doc and some initial interest from a publisher.... I can't share the idea on this forum, but check out my cv and previous titles...."

[Michael-Williamson]

The "nintendo politely refused to help" line means that they don't think your idea is any good or will make any money BTW.... It MAY mean that they have no confidence that you can deliver the product (due to whatever you've told them about team, your previous experience whatever....)

If they gave you any critique or feedback about the creative of the game take it to heart as much as you can, act on it, come up with a better idea that addresses their concerns... They probably won't listen to a second time pitch, but they will have turned you down 'cause they don't think it'll fly. They're usually right!

the other line about "this is my project I have final say!".... It sounds like you need other peoples help far more than they need you I'm sorry to say!

Have you ever worked in a games studio? Sounds like a good idea to put some time in to learn more about the industry to me!

[AnonymousArtist]

Golly gee Joshex, where do i humbly sign up! :bounce:
Everyone loves a 'take charge' kinda person - who surely knows game design like
no one else.

Really dude / dudet, (not sure of your sex, who cares) - "fellow blender users"?
I've been using this app for 4 years and even I don't think of myself as in league with
alot of the real users. Those folks know what their doing - do you?

Besides, EVERYONE thinks they have potential to become the worlds greatest video game
designer. They're a dime for, eh you know.

I got a good laugh at your post, however,
and would love to know why using a game engine doesn't qualify as legit programming.
Most 'game engines' - are they not APIs or even SDKs? Well, maybe they're are a lot
of GEs like in Blender, but those take time and disipline to master.
I know a guy whos pretty sharp at Blender GE, A real jack of all trades in Blender,
and this dude is mildy retarded, like yourself and I. :applause:

So, why not get a grip, and try your hand at "Game Development" before thinking you gonna
make a thread and start callin' the shots. And another thing:
alot of us so called "Americans", include# <yourself> are very F***ing imposing about their
ways, as if the whole world should bow before themselves. Good luck in all your future endeavors. :thumbsup:

[JesseGraffam]

If money isn't your goal why would I waste my time helping you create it. Ha 3 million. Ya right, and you even continue saying you don't know blender well.

I wouldn't talk about payment options, because it clearly is not your goal. Sounds like you're looking for creative director practice, while a bunch of suckers work half hartedly on your ambiguous non-thought out project.

[joshex]

OK, I'm hurt in a way...

Michael-Williamson: first of all, thankyou for kindly stating what you were thinking! :) on a second, I would like to say that although the following words may sound harsh they are not intended to be!. (I just am very /set/ on making this game)

you think I don't even have a project? that I just noticed the game engine and said "Oh boy let me make a game!", no...

it was more like, "nintendo's games are crap, they are completely destroying thier series and they don't give a smeg!", so I decided to make my own game, then I stumbled upon blender, and thought that it might be a good starting grounds to learn animation and 3D modeling. it is! :)

then after realizing that no concept art I could provide would get my contact at nintendo to do more than submitt an application for employment for me (that I never heard back on) I still /know/ nintendo isn't doing a good enough job with thier series, and it was bugging me drasticly, so I went searching for a game engine determined to make this game with help, or with out it.

finding no decent engine to my knowledge to produce the kind of game I wanted to, I almost lost hope then I heard about blender's engine.... and after figuring out where it was and how to use it (some what) I got some hope back!

music: I ran into a problem not being able to find any music composition software that will run on my operating system. so I've decided to make a compromise and use old 8 bit sound effects and music as well.. (which may or may not add to the game type I'm trying to make!)

proof; that avatar of mine, that's my character, it was my Idea that drove me to pick up blender in the first place, and I'm not stopping, I don't care if it takes me 20 years, I know nintendo will /never/ do anything like this because they bassically said they wouldn't, so in 20 years time I can rub this in thier face! :)

I honestly don't think it's going to take 20 years, more like 2 or 3 at my present rate of learning...

"my idea not being good enough.....": sure nintendo wants nothing to do with it, and I might agree with you michael that that was due to them having no confidence in me, and thinking my game wasn't going to make any money, but I /know/ they are wrong, I might as well tell you why :)

how can I know for a fact that my game not only will sell, but that nintendo isn't making games properly any more: because my game is a 3D remaking of an old NES game (without altering the game play value, concept or feel of the game.) not only that but this game spawned a fan base that was remarkably large in it's old form, where as nintendo's new form of it is lacking... and the studio that makes it has said they won't continue to make that series any more due to a "smaller than expected" fan base thats dropping in big numbers... (because they didn't make the game right)

but still nintendo wants nothing to do with the format of the game that actually spwans a fan base... :( sad, that... so I'm going to profit without them...

even if you don't want to work on the game, I would still appreciate it if you would at least give answers to blender related questions that I might ask as often as you know something (or if you just want to make a comment that might be helpfull too) :) after all, as I said I'm still learning.

why do I need the final say? because I don't want this to end up like nintendo's /failure/ version of this series.... basically I'd need very /little/ artistic input... because that, in the end was what ruined this series, the whole "well I think if we did (enter bad Idea) instead of (original Idea) it would be cooler than the the original series" which always spwans something that just isn't right.....

anonymous artist; where to start, I can see that was just intended as blatent flaming.... well except for the "Good luck in all your future endeavors." bit. but still you sarcasm aside I understand I did not give enough information. and as for a game engine not being good enough: that was due to the need for a programmer to actually help create a working nintendo wii game header, so the disk will actually be playable on nintendo wii... to my knowledge you can't do that with a game engine (unless it's nintendo made)

JesseGraffam: first off, non-thought out? for crying out loud thats all I've been doing for the past 7 years "thinking it out", creative director practice: I can see your point, but no thats not it at all, I merely wanted a little help (it's allot of work), payment: although not my intentions, I figured anyone with half a brain "probably" wouldn't want to help make a game for free, so I spent some time thinking out a proposal for payment. just in case it was needed.

I'm learning more and more about blender each day...so I may not know it well right now but with help I know I could learn much faster! and I'm too poor to go to college... so this is like my only option for any help.

3 million? yes, I actually for see at least that, coming from this game. due to the fan base behind the series to begin with...(it will be one of those conditions like "I don't care if nintendo made it or not, it looks awesome, I have to play it!") fans will rush in for thier copy even if it is a fanfiction game... (if it's done well enough) thats the key through out the whole project... (well enough)

if you don't want to help thats fine, I'll go it on my own with a few lessons on the way. thats all this was just to see if anyone wanted to help even a small amount would be appreciated...

[Michael-Williamson]

Ok, self belief is a good thing....

Be careful though, you have to make sure you aren't using any copyrighted materials from Nintendo's snes game.... so your art direction will need to be different enough for you not to need the licence, your gameplay cannot be a direct copy, you have to change SOMETHING (2d to 3d with same game mechanic?)

Also, to get the thing published you usually have to submit it to Nintendo. Platform holders usually reserve the right to a "closed market" which means that you have to get their approval of quality to even be able to publish the game once it is finished.... you just can't do this without Nintendo I'm affraid! It's not the PC market!

Also, to develop a game for Wii you will need a Wii development kit. I don't know what Nintendo are like, but Sony demand that you are an "approved" developer before they will even sell you this stuff. Nintendo are probably the same! Your anti Nintendo comments are unlikely to get you on their approved developer list, so think carefully about what you say on forums!

BTW your financials are WAY off.... and as you can see from others responses you WILL find it hard to recruit a crew, so should plan to learn to do it all yourself!

I think that you are vastly underestimating how difficult this will be, and personally I wonder why go to all this effort just to duplicate an old nes game?.... that's pretty creatively bankrupt IMHO.

Of course, these may simply be "obstacles" for you to bound over heroicly to great success and prove us all wrong... but bear in mind that your reward may be to have done the game YOUR way WITHOUT NINTENDO ,for lots of effort, NO FINANCIAL REWARD and NO AUDIENCE!

It's an old story that rattles around the forums with increased frequency though...

Personally I prefer the idea that games are an ENTERAINMENT media. That success should be measured in how many people you entertain, that you open up and find the biggest audience you can, rather than the "tortured artist" doing a very "personal game"

A leader sets the pace but also "brings people with them" I think your sprinting off to attack the hill shouting "come on, I'm great, believe in me!" and when you turn around
everyone else has wandered off in boredom!

[innactpro]

I suppose I'm a sucker for the underdog, but go for it dude. After all, the first big hit games were by people making games from home in their spare time. Sierra started because the artist wife asked her programmer husband, "why can't we?", and her husband couldn't give a good answer.

I happen to have a BAS in game development and am adequately aware of what a big bite you are taking. However, as my last boss posed before our bigger projects, "How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time." I know this is an old saying, but it's appropriate.

I would suggest before tackling this particular elephant, work on some smaller, perhaps lesser projects. Get any experience with any team. Then get a project or two of your own completed. Then, with all the work you would have done in your spare time on this particular project, backed by all the other work you had done with other teams, you might be able to convince the copyright owners to allow you to finish this project. I doubt you will even with more experience and all the spare time work put into this game, as they have already publicly stated the discontinuation. But you never know.

Personally, I wouldn't mind helping with your modeling. I'm not much on texturing, I have a guy for that. A friend who is much better. However, I am transitioning from Cinema 4D to the differences in Blender, as well as studying Japanese, along with numerous familial obligations. So, not getting paid right now to do specific work, that work would be prioritized accordingly.

And finally, you're never too poor to go to college. One of the guys I worked with at my last job was going to school for free because he was so poor. I'm not sure exactly how he was doing this, but it is possible apparently. 頑張って

PS: You might check out Michael's site, http://www.cowtoolsmedia.co.uk/ , then re-read his posts. ;)

[AnonymousArtist]

Sure was flamin'.
But you know what? I was just like you not to long ago. My friend that I speak of is currently
as silly as you at times ( I'm not meaning to be insulting ), but his approach is somewhat
effective, because he goes out and looks for people on the streets and in coffee shops and
such. He loves games, period. I do too. And the japanese. :p

suggestion: :deal:
How about working with beginner game programmers like me?
I'm not seriously asking you to work with me, but guys like me.
This would include learning to work with a 2d GE, which has limitations,
however, the format of these limits are less involved then working
with the limits of a 3d GE.

Why? Well, you're a artist, as you say, which means your primary objective should be, regarding asset creation, to produce quality. Today gamers are expecting toon (cell )
shaders for 3d games based on cartoons, and normal, tangent, and paralax ( to name a few )
map textures on objects in games. Just this aspect alone is serious human labor.

I'm not really comfortable working with any project leader who isn't familur with the
techinology; who may even happen to be artistic. For a project leader should throughly understand the limits of the techinology being utilized, my friend. Thus, an artist is usually unsuited for such tasks, which is a good thing, because good artist are in demand.

So your gonna make a game on your own? I'm pretty poor too, and I think you shall
fail to make a robust game on your own. I too desire to make robust games, and I
too am socially inept. But we must understand that making robust games is no longer
possible without atleast a small team support.

I can see your passion for games, so I sincerely hope you find your place
in a dev team as an artist first, and an concept contributor second.
I'm really a fan of guys like John Ramos who is a REAL game designer. But I
prefer the company of great artist above all.

Live long and prosper. :thumbsup:

[JesseGraffam]

3 million? yes, I actually for see at least that, coming from this game. due to the fan base behind the series to begin with...(it will be one of those conditions like "I don't care if nintendo made it or not, it looks awesome, I have to play it!") fans will rush in for thier copy even if it is a fanfiction game... (if it's done well enough) thats the key through out the whole project... (well enough)

Can you at least tell us what game you're trying to bring back from the dead. With this huge fan base, which is quite hard to believe otherwise the game would still exist.

Also you do realize there are professional games made by teams of very talented artists that don't hit the 3 million mark. I really curious what makes you think you can do this with no industry experience.

You also have to be more than a fast learner and good artist. You have to market the thing and create a lt of buzz and excitement, and you'll need a lot of help doing that.

[joshex]

jesse, I'll start with you this time, the series (which for a few reasons will remain nameless), had 3 titles one for each system from NES to GB and SNES, then the original developer wanted to end the story there. so there was no sequel for the N64, but I still remember just about every one I mentioned the game to, still wish they had made a proper sequel, the original developer of the series broke the rights to the game away from nintendo and wanted to make a 3D 3rd person sequel with his own company later, but tragically before the game was anywhere near even becoming a game, he died in a fatal car accident.

naturally seeing as his team didn't know where he was going with the title, they let it "die" so to speak. then after seven years, nintendo picked up (bought) that rights to the series, and well they made a sequel but it wasn't 3D... and it was of poor construction :( and they made a 3D game but it was very different. :( that and nintendo didn't make the 3D game themselves (they gave it to an inexperienced company that was currently devloping a football game... but thats probably too much information as you can probably guess which series off of what I just said there..

my point, the fan base is there!, just it's dieing, due to bad development, and too much third party artisic input.

anonymous artist

I might try helping annother team getting thier game going! and, no I won't ask for any compensation :) . I see what you are saying, work on my game on the side while I learn by makeing a game with an actual team, then I can use that as reference to companies to get them to possibly accept my game.... but I doubt that company will be nintendo, they just want to go allong with whatever is the modern day fad... sadly, I mean people can only take so many different types of gaia like chat games.... before they completely abandon video games and just go chatting back in gaia, if I wanted to give any advice to nintendo, it would be don't follow fads, make them!.... wait where have I heard that before...?

innact pro thanks for the encouragement!

this is quite an elephant! more like a mammoth!, nothing like this game has ever been done in 3D before so theres allot I'll have to do on my own...

also, I'm pretty decent on texturing my self, well at least the kind af texturing I'm actually doing, bassically I'm not just slapping pictures onto objects! :) I actually am doing some very fine detail in certain areas (where it counts in the game) basic forms help me allot so I can go straight into detailing. but so far I have built a few models from scratch my self...

if you want to help on the modeling, I understand your conditions would mean it would be at the bottom of your pile respectively.

now michael, I understand where you are coming from! I have already about 2 years ago checked with nintendo about software, they say right on thier development site that you have to be a licensed developer before you can buy any of thier products or join in on thier development forums...

on a point of copy rights, I've already talked it out with a freind who knows "law" quite well regarding entertainment :) and he said that if nintendo did take me to court they wouldn't stand a chance! basically he knows everything about my game and says it's different enough from anything nintendo is doing or has done to be sued. he did mention that for ultimate saftey If I couldn't get nintendo to go allong with this game, to calling "name's, series, fanfiction" just to be on the safe side..

change, yes I have taken a few chances to change some of it, but the main goal is very little change, bassically I've decided to make the game a little longer and add multiplayer options and such! but thats aways away! :)

developing for the wii, I may not have nintendo's permission, but I might be able to find some way, some one I know tried and is still trying to hack into a wii, he's /very/ talented with computers and might pull it off! I might actually try somthing he didn't think of :) but I won't post that here... so in short I might still have the abillity to develop for wii at some point... I'm a firm believer in the phrase "theres always a way". infact if it weren't for that phrase I would have given up on this game because of the lack of knowledge of how to produce it as I wanted to, as I said theres nothing else like it in 3D. it took /allot/of thinking just to be able to fathom how it could work in a 3D environment...

and why go to all the trouble to duplicate it? I decided to prove once and for all that this way is the right way to do it, in a way proving that nintendo's way was "wrong". to do this I am recreating the original series game by game in 3D in my format, where as nintendo's format wouldn't be able reproduce what the original series was capable of.. (gameplay wise)

bassically I'm doing it, so I can at least /know/ if it is possible to actually "do", or whether nintedo was right when they said "it's impossible to do it any other way that how we've done it" this is not thier exact comment, but the jist of what they said to me. they said they looked at all the alternatives and thier format was the only way the game could be produced in 3D......... and for me to trust them that they actually tired! and that was that, they wouldn't change..

well I've thought it out, and after what I know now, I look back and see they were just lieing so they could continue to take "the easy road..." because other wise it would have been /too/ much work. but I'm not finding it so hard just time taking, and it won't be /that/ time taking to just give up and take the easy road...

I guess they care about quantity, not quality now a days?

I know I shouldn't bash them, because I might need them later, it's just hard, because they blatently destroyed my favorite series! for the sake of makeing a game for sale quickly.....
I'm still willing to kiss and make up as they say, in fact that was the last thing I said to my contact before I left; that I'd show them my progress as the games' completion closes in, and if they wanted "in on it" then, then I would gladly partner with them... and they could help with the final parts of it such as advertising, but even if they don't I've already found some ways to advertise! quite affective ways!

I may say some harsh words, but I'll be your friend nintendo, if you'll be mine.

and thanks for your words of encouragement and helpfull advice guys and/or gals! :) I will definately think aobut what you have said.

now off to work on more modeling, wow that post took me a few hours, sorry for it's length! (lots to explain)

[innactpro]

It's obvious you have put much thought into this. But I do need to clarify; when I said I would be willing to help with modeling, I can't help with this project. Because it is an existing 2D game you would like to convert to 3D, someone owns the rights to that existing game. You must have permission from the owners or be the owner of those rights. Copy, publishing and/or otherwise are absolutely necessary before anyone could help you with this. Anyone involved without the proper permissions could be, and most likely would be, held equally accountable. To take part would essentially be professional suicide. The only way you could remake this game is by changing the title, change the character names, change the layout of the levels, change at least most of the look as it would translate into the textures, location names, bosses, sfx, music, menus, on screen displays of information, input controls (maybe you could get away with leaving that alone) and any story or plot lines. Of course, once you make all of those changes, you have a new game, and that is what set you on this path in the first place. And a new game isn't the worst thing in the world that could happen. If you insist on making the game without changes, you would only be able to play it in the basement, with the door closed and the windows blacked out. Assuming you have a basement. Regardless of whether Nintendo has made, is making or ever will make, this game or any game even coming close to this game, this already exists even though in 2D form, and someone owns the rights to this game. And, to beat the dead horse further, if your not the owner of those rights, you need their permission.

I don't mean to discourage you. Hopefully the opposite. Hopefully you would start along a path that is more your own. "Put the past where you behind is." Let this game be what is obviously a pleasant memory for you and move on.

Try your hand at DWIII (http://forums.cgsociety.org/forumdisplay.php?f=234)

CGTalk critiques can be a stiff cup o' Joe. You will learn from participating. You will learn more about Blender, your abilities, your style, and, most brutally, what others think of your work. Take the crits, absorb them, learn from them, then move on. Stiff up upper lip and all that.

Well, that's it from me for a time. I will be spending my free waking hours on my own DWIII entry. Wish me luck. Good luck to you as well.

[Michael-Williamson]

Try your hand at DWIII (http://forums.cgsociety.org/forumdisplay.php?f=234)##

er.... excuse my ignorance but what does that mean?

[innactpro]

Dominance War III (http://forums.cgsociety.org/forumdisplay.php?f=234)

It's a contest hosted by gameartisans.com and participated in by eight other forum sites, nine total forum sites. A million or so individual participants are expected, across five nations. I think it's five. It's pretty big.

[JesseGraffam]

Joshex- I would give up on your dreams for now. I know you have a grudge with nintendo, but making a different version of a game they had already made years ago is not a good way of sticking to the man.

A good test to be sure you have what is takes to accomplish this gigantic task, is to post your work and get C&C on it. also apply for job to actual real established gaming studio and get some dev experience before going rogue. that way if a studio hires you, you'll atleast know you have what it takes to learn how to make game while being productive at the same time.

It takes a lot more than having an idea. You have to execute it. And, doing that is really friggin hard, frustrating and very time consuming. You'd be lucky to complete it in 3 years, judging from the state you're in now. I'll even go out on a limb and say you will never finish this game, if you try to do it all yourself. There is just too much that goes into it, and I think you'll lose interest when the going gets tough.

[TerribleOne]

I always think it's funny when people say they are making a game, and learning a program at the same time. Are you serious? Have you really thought about this? Keep thinking, you really don't sound prepared for production at all. Sounds like pre-pre alpha stage, with a heavy dose of delusions of grandeur. 3 Milllion you expect? If Nintendo couldn't do it back then what makes you think you can? If the gameplay is as revolutionary as you say, how could it posibly be based on any game we've seen yet, let alone one all the way back on the snes.

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