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PaulNewman
01-28-2008, 01:11 PM
For those marking time while waiting for messiah 3.0 here's a recent Frost&Sullivan market insight article (http://www.frost.com/prod/servlet/market-insight-top.pag?Src=RSS&docid=116596418) which possible describes the wisdom of pmG's silence on this (and perhaps other) forum.

TylerAZambori
01-28-2008, 03:59 PM
I don't think that article applies. There is no anti-marketing ethos here; in fact
people ask for it over and over again. People with customer service issues get
told to talk to PMG directly - I 've seen it.


I think the truth is that they don't like to talk to customers because they'd rather
program, as Ulven said. I also think they can't afford to pay somebody to take
care of customer relations. I've seen it on quite a few other forums: the software
company has their own forum, and they have company people to help answer
questions if nobody else does. Not all of them, but many. Silo does not have their
own forum, but they give out frequent info on silo3D.

3D is a little different than other industries, because the users need a way to
get help with using the program, even if it's mostly from each other. It's just
naturally a more intense relationship. I know I wouldn't want to be in those
shoes, but they chose it along with deciding to get into this business.

Customer relations management is just one leg of the stool, but it is a leg,
and the stool doesn't look too sturdy without all three. This is like the
pre-Zbrush 3 fiasco. I guess everythng is fine now, but before it came out
things were very unpleasant, and not just on the zbrush forum. it spilled over
onto the Silo forum, over and over again. I would say the complaints about
Zbrush got even worse on the Silo forum.

So maybe this is a good comparison. Silo did give out info before version 2
came out, and nobody got uspet. Zbrush did not, and people got really really
upset. Some of the hatred was incredible!

Who are PMG's competition, really? The only other stand-alone animation
software is Motionbuilder, and that may be slowly being killed off. The
"total-solution high-end" apps probably consider themselves in a different
category anyway. Maybe the only one would be xsi foundation, which is
not complete, but actually offers more, but is more difficult. Hence that one
is not quite in same market niche either. Messiah is more for people who
don't want to fiddle around too much, and just get it done, right? So it's
hard for me to see who their real competition is. People who go to xsi
have to change to accomodate that program's complexity, so maybe this
situation forces them to be flexible.

I don't think Zbrush really had much to worry about from mudbox, and they should
have been a little more forthcoming. Ther would have been less hair-tearing.

Nichod
01-29-2008, 02:12 AM
Personally, I could care less. They have continued to release free updates for years. Did it have everything that the users wanted? No. As with any software development team they pick and chose what to fix/add, and in pmG's case they are a small development team, so they had to pick and choose even more. I think the only issue people have had with pmG stems from the start where things were blown up into something huge and fantastic with all these additional tools and functionality (Mac OS support for instance.) that was never delivered. But I say let bygones be bygones and move on. No use beating a dead horse. As we see repeatedly Messiah can be used in production and it is even developed while used in production.

Silo does not have their own forum, but they give out frequent info on silo3D.

FYI. Silo3d is the Nevercenter forum. Its owned by nevercenter.

PaulNewman
01-29-2008, 08:36 AM
I don't think that article applies. There is no anti-marketing ethos here; in fact people ask for it over and over again.
This is true, however the rest of the article illuminates a real need for companies to take care in the way they approach the public - even if that public asks for something.

What I've noticed around here is that when a pmG person does say something, you have some people appreciating it and others taking issue with what the pmG person said. When pmG is silent on the forum, then it's the same - you have people appreciating it and others taking issue - just for different reasons. On average, the bitching and whining on the forum is negative no matter what stance pmG takes.

If I was going to be given a hard time on a public forum no matter what, then my choice would be to just not waste my time posting and handling replies and rather spend my time with what is important. Those people who are using messiah in production will usually not waste their time with whining posts on the forum either, but will be either busy with production or contacting pmG direct with a real problem.

In the forum the users help each other and, although very rare, at times a pmG person chips in with assistance. If a user really is stuck, then pmG can be contacted direct. So far, IMO, pmG has a very good track record in this regard. Over time we've heard of how pmG went out of their way to help users on a one-to-one basis (I'm one of them) and this is what this Frost&Sullivan article was really about. What 3D software company will correct and compile a fix for their users like pmG does? pmG is the only company like this in my (limited) experience. Which of the users who have been helped like this publish their positive experiences on the forum? Usually they get right back into production and don't have time to post here, so the public view may tend to be skewed against pmG in this regard.

pmG should refrain completely from saying things which don't happen. Yes, we've all moved on past the Apple Mac issue but then we get the "messiah 3.0 coming soon" line and have to deal with our shattered expectations on that again, with some people's concept of "soon" being different than others, especially in our fast-food Internet click-to-download consumer culture.

Keep completely quiet until you are ready with the goods (in pmG's case this period is known to be much longer than with other software houses). Ignore the silly cries on the forums for a word from pmG and just code and test and produce and try have a life inbetween if possible. The public simply won't be satisfied no matter what you do or say (even if you do "fix" the edit sphere someone will whine).

pmG's concern should be (1) their product and (2) users who are using their product in actual production. I believe that is exactly what they have been doing for quite some time now, even though the going may not be as fast paced as with other softwares.

For me it's back to production using messiah Studio (doing the job perfectly for what I need at this time) while I lurk and read all the bitching and whining on the forum in the hope of seeing something worthwhile published here (which I do see from time to time).

Ulven
01-29-2008, 03:21 PM
I think what Mr Newman is saying here is a pretty good point.

StOuen
01-29-2008, 03:46 PM
This is my 2 pence worth: From what I gather, It seems to me that the development of Messiah is driven on a per production basis. What I mean by this is that major releases usually follow usage on major productions from 'Jimmy Neutron' to 'Andys Airplanes', hence (I am guessing here) the anouncement of V3 shortly after the buzz of A's Airplanes. I think the sale of Messiah to us mere mortals is a secondary side effect, albeit a really positive one for us users. So, in short, the creators of Messiah are animators, and what are they doing? Animating. And they have produced a great app in the process.

TylerAZambori
01-29-2008, 03:58 PM
This is true, however the rest of the article illuminates a real need for companies to take care in the way they approach the public - even if that public asks for something.

What I've noticed around here is that when a pmG person does say something, you have some people appreciating it and others taking issue with what the pmG person said. When pmG is silent on the forum, then it's the same - you have people appreciating it and others taking issue - just for different reasons. On average, the bitching and whining on the forum is negative no matter what stance pmG takes.

If I was going to be given a hard time on a public forum no matter what, then my choice would be to just not waste my time posting and handling replies and rather spend my time with what is important. Those people who are using messiah in production will usually not waste their time with whining posts on the forum either, but will be either busy with production or contacting pmG direct with a real problem.

In the forum the users help each other and, although very rare, at times a pmG person chips in with assistance. If a user really is stuck, then pmG can be contacted direct. So far, IMO, pmG has a very good track record in this regard. Over time we've heard of how pmG went out of their way to help users on a one-to-one basis (I'm one of them) and this is what this Frost&Sullivan article was really about.

No, that's not what the article is really about. The article is pointing out what
the potential downside is for companies who interact with customers through
the internet, and it specifically mentions the problem with anti-marketing ethos,
such as people not wanting to have restaraunt owners spam them on a forum
about food. You started by saying that this article could explain why PMG has
been quiet. It explains nothing.

I was replying to your claim, and explaining why your statement was wrong.
The reaction is that I have some kind of problem. Think it through, and calm
down, please.


What 3D software company will correct and compile a fix for their users like pmG does? pmG is the only company like this in my (limited) experience. Which of the users who have been helped like this publish their positive experiences on the forum? Usually they get right back into production and don't have time to post here, so the public view may tend to be skewed against pmG in this regard.

pmG should refrain completely from saying things which don't happen. Yes, we've all moved on past the Apple Mac issue but then we get the "messiah 3.0 coming soon" line and have to deal with our shattered expectations on that again, with some people's concept of "soon" being different than others, especially in our fast-food Internet click-to-download consumer culture.

Keep completely quiet until you are ready with the goods (in pmG's case this period is known to be much longer than with other software houses). Ignore the silly cries on the forums for a word from pmG and just code and test and produce and try have a life inbetween if possible. The public simply won't be satisfied no matter what you do or say (even if you do "fix" the edit sphere someone will whine).

pmG's concern should be (1) their product and (2) users who are using their product in actual production. I believe that is exactly what they have been doing for quite some time now, even though the going may not be as fast paced as with other softwares.

For me it's back to production using messiah Studio (doing the job perfectly for what I need at this time) while I lurk and read all the bitching and whining on the forum in the hope of seeing something worthwhile published here (which I do see from time to time).

Right on, I think that there should be a messiah forum just for everybody who is using it in production and working as a professional. Proof of contract must be required before admittance to the forum. That way PMG can only bother themselves with them,
just as you wish. But if they are going to do it that way, shouldn't they, like, price it
much much higher to keep the riff raff out? I guess I'm confused about what market
segment messiah is really supposed to be for.

So if that is just an unknown, then nobody can really ponder in any intelligent manner
about what is going on, so nothing can be said at all.

TylerAZambori
01-29-2008, 04:26 PM
This is my 2 pence worth: From what I gather, It seems to me that the development of Messiah is driven on a per production basis. What I mean by this is that major releases usually follow usage on major productions from 'Jimmy Neutron' to 'Andys Airplanes', hence (I am guessing here) the anouncement of V3 shortly after the buzz of A's Airplanes. I think the sale of Messiah to us mere mortals is a secondary side effect, albeit a really positive one for us users. So, in short, the creators of Messiah are animators, and what are they doing? Animating. And they have produced a great app in the process.

You know, I don't think I like the class distinction.

PaulNewman
01-30-2008, 07:44 AM
That way PMG can only bother themselves with them, just as you wish. But if they are going to do it that way, shouldn't they, like, price it much much higher to keep the riff raff out? I guess I'm confused about what market segment messiah is really supposed to be for.Sorry if I offended you. Sincerely my humble apologies are offered in the hope that you will forgive me.

The idea was to cast some light on pmG's side of things so that forum members may gain some understanding into the complexities and possible pitfalls of corporate relations from pmG's side. Put yourself in their shoes and try to think how much some of the feedback on this forum would demotivate you as developer and possibly harm the business you are trying to build. People who just selfishly sit and make demands as clients without any regard for the developer of the product exhibit a total lack of understanding and zero compassion for other people.

On a forum, riff raff is as riff raff talks. That's the point. It's been suggested here before on the forums by many in the past... everyone here can help to make positive inputs but it requires some restraint and some effort and a desire to speak about pmG and their product as we would have liked others to speak about us if we were in pmG's shoes.

There will always be a sort of class distinction in the graphics market – not just pmG but also with the big name apps. There's the developer who knows juicy stuff the users don't know but really burn to know. There's Beta testers who know and test stuff they are burning to tell to others who don't know. There's clients in big productions who may get developer attention over other clients in very tiny productions. There's users using a 3D app as a hobby and users with the app on the shelf thinking of selling it. There's the user churning out brilliant CG Award stuff and there's users like me just keeping the lights on and drooling over the fantastic stuff others are doing around here and wondering how on earth I'll ever create something that good. But regardless of all this, there's really no class distinction stopping anyone from any level to advance and excel because the tools are here, other users are here, and the tool makers are here – everything lined up as an opportunity for the taking and a career for the making.

Is pmG snobbish? No. pmG did not look away when I needed help. I'm really a nobody from another country and they went out of their way for my little one-man production. From that and other testimonials here I'd say they are spot on with their client relations!

Frankly, a 3D app is what the user makes with it, not how much the developer gives feedback on a forum.

Even before 3D forums I started 3D with a free magazine cover copy of Imagine 3D on a stiffy disk and took away projects from the studios running Softimage on SGI boxes. Talk about a feeling of class distinction! But was there really class distinction? No. What's the difference between an SGI box loaded with state-of-the-art software and an Amiga running Imagine? The difference is the user. That's us you guys!

I was once called in for a meeting with a studio boss who had a loaded SGI Onyx and a few O2's machines (anyone remember those?) lined up against the wall in his hallway because his people did not know how to operate them. After I told him what el-cheapo system I was using he replied: “So you're saying I don't need an expensive Boeing to get from point A to B... I can just use a Cessna!?” At that moment he realized the true artist is the user, not the machine or the software.

So while some are fretting about a better or different mode of transport over another, others are going places with what they've got. If that were to be the overwhelming spirit around here, this place would really be a positive motivation to pmG and a cool place to hang out to check out who's doing what next while we share our own experiences. Although there's much of this going on already, for some reason there's still always someone who pipes up and chokes up the non-smoking area, making things unpleasant for others and taking forum visitor attention away from positive threads.

You guys shout: Give us a sign... anything... please!? Then the sign comes: There's going to be fur.

Wow! Fur!

Recently there were some test renders of fur and then someone pipes up with how Lightwave has had fur for years and so what if messiah now has fur... we actually need other stuff, not fur. Even if this is a fact, what a shame to give the pmG developers such a slap in the face! Mathematical and coding geniuses hard at work to connect these features for us to their really easy GUI. Fur is a great technical achievement, even if other apps already have it. Can't everyone acknowledge that and motivate the pmG guys with some wholesome appreciation without puffing a whole lot of negative smoke?

So once again pmG made something known and some people were happy while others just spat at it. That's why I felt the Frost&Sullivan article was relevant – to insightfully illustrate the dangerous waters in which pmG finds themselves in a public forum.

Honestly, if it was me in pmG's shoes, I'd have withdrawn my app from the market just so I don't have to unnecessarily be driven to multiple acts of forgiveness each night so that my heart will again be clean to face the new day with renewed joy and vigor. Either that or I'll code on a machine without an Internet connection so that I just cannot know what is being said on the forum.

Amazing thing is that pmG actually follows these forums AND they keep on developing an admirable product. That's way better than what I would have coped with.

Personally and professionally I'm perfectly happy with pmG's client relations and I'm happy with their product and I'm quite happy with their definition of "soon" because if it's not tomorrow then they are most certainly busy making it better for another day and I wouldn't want something too soon if it's not quite ready yet. And if the pmG guys are also animating in between development, then that fact will also positively reflect in their messiah product. I respect pmG's decision on their timing because it's their product, their time and their struggle.

Now I'm really really going back to lurking...

And while I'm gone, please take a touch more time to think about the Forum behaviour suggestions which appear above the text editor each time any of us type a message here. Looks like these forum administrators also know a thing or two about this treacherous topic...




Be courteous and polite. Show respect to the opinions and feelings of others. Use of the forums is a privilege, not a right.
Engage your brain before your mouth. You are responsible for your own words and any harm they may cause.
Don't dilute the forums with irrelevant and unnecessary fluff.

StOuen
01-30-2008, 10:26 AM
You know, I don't think I like the class distinction.

Lighten up dude...

palpal
02-03-2008, 01:33 AM
...in the last years I have been less active in the 3d scene due to work that I earn more from, and in its way will found me to create a good childrens series in animation.

some years ago I were wery active in giving newtek comments on their software, why? thet is a question worth to answer... the answer is that I am fast and good in LW... I know it is the right for me in a way... I feel love to it... the same for messiah, the more active I were in the forums the more newtek folx were occupied and abit annoyed with me posting complaints and so on all the time.

The thing is that we are interested due to the fact that we love our applications and want it to be perfect... think of PMG here... they want their software to be great end good enougf to sute their production work, welle that is sooo cool... because it sute their productions, it is working good in that production, so really what I think PMG should consider is to post one real topic eash months, but not answer the thread, just read it...

I know where time is, but there is too less time to do all... I think messiah is a greate tool and I really know it will just be better tooo... Congrats PMG, you have something alot love, so bring out more love and they will love it even more... And love can not be planned, so create a better tool when you can... in that way it will be fun to do it too... if you think it is fun, my guess is that we the users will have more fun with it too...

PaulNewman: in recent years I have lived a life feeling the preassure, and you are very right. What is the problem with adding fur... in my mind fur is awsome, it creates a extra layer to messiah no matter what anyone would tink... it acctually makes the app really solid... there are limited tools we need, but fur is for sure one of them...

I have seen alot of cg movies in the latest times... and it really make some things crlear for me... alot of still images on the web in galleries in alot of different softwares or applications disply really awsome quality... but if one see still images from really modern stuff, there are limited usage of such advanced features in the final images... So in my mind PMG really are upon a great release as they cover now starndard features of the nominated films we all love... inside messiah alone! COOL!

A last thing is: and this is important to me... how should a 299 character animation with bones and keyframes even be compared to maya, xsi and so on... I meen, messiah is something else it is a plugin that has become a stand alone... It is like a DOF plugin, it costs 50% or more than that of the cost of messiah... a modeler add on for LW costs more than messiah... one rally good model on turbo squid can cost more than messiah.... one rendernode on other render systems costs more than messiah... a SSS plugin costs more than messiah... Different autorig systems costs 30-300% of messiah.... a texture cd costs 30% of messiah... Messiah is a cheap software... what do we expect? that it should be better than xsi in every aspect? well then one hopes for the impossible... messiah should be a great tool to character animation, and the fact that one today can really create a whole film inside a software that costs 299 is really something that is incredible... think of what you get for 299... that is really amazing to me...

pal :bounce:

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