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Infinity3d4life
04-28-2003, 03:34 AM
Has anyone tryed using either one of these applications?? I was wondering what the benefits are to using them.. I really want to get deep into animation now, and i'm looking for all the help i can get.. The demo vids i have seen for these products make everything look so easy....:shrug:

toonshady
04-28-2003, 03:59 AM
Messiah has a demo you can download. At glance, Messiah looks cool, but eventually I find myself just can't get use to the bad navigation system, everything on the leftside and the single undo. I have Motion Builder and it woops ass:love: I bring in a weighted model with skeleton hierarchy within layout (no control rigs), and less than a second, I can characterize (setup up rig controls) in MB and start animating. You can import Mocap data onto the rig and animate on top of that with a second layer. For $100, MB feels like a ACS and Keytrak combine, plus many more.:thumbsup:

Infinity3d4life
04-28-2003, 04:07 AM
I've heard alot about KeyTrack.. How is that?? I have ACS4, but i haven't looked into Keytrak yet.. I'm gonna have to do some serious research and studying.. Around here there are no animation schools so i have to do all this by trial and error... Thanks for the reply..

toonshady
04-28-2003, 04:16 AM
Hi, if you haven't animated much before in LW, it's a good idea to use it for animation before considering other solutions. From then on, I think you will appreciate tools like Keytrak and others more and understand what purpose they serve. You can check out Keytrak info from www.spatial-design.com It gives you a little rundown of how to use it. Good luck.

SplineGod
04-28-2003, 04:27 AM
Originally posted by toonshady
Hi, if you haven't animated much before in LW, it's a good idea to use it for animation before considering other solutions. From then on, I think you will appreciate tools like Keytrak and others more and understand what purpose they serve. You can check out Keytrak info from www.spatial-design.com It gives you a little rundown of how to use it. Good luck.
I totally agree with this. If you dont know how to animate or rig in Lightwave, jumping into even more complicated apps will only muddy the waters. I think LW is great for rigging and animating. Messiah and MB are powerful no doubt. Demos are supposed to make the software look easy to use. I would focus on lightwave and once you become fairly proficient LW8 will be out and that would be a good time to decide if you need to move onto something else.

froggyplat
04-28-2003, 05:00 AM
i agree with that SG...i do have motionbuilder and it's a great program no doubt, but it's so important to fully explore LW's animation tools. don't take the shortcuts until you know why you are taking them...

that being said, i think everyone should take advantage of the kaydara deal before it's gone!:)

Julez4001
04-28-2003, 05:01 AM
Originally posted by SplineGod
Messiah and MB are powerful no doubt. Demos are supposed to make the software look easy to use.

Come on Spline..
Isn't that really out of left field, sure demo reels do this but that likes telling someone LW discovery is easy to use and in fact both it (and messiah/motionBuilder) are the full app working.

If a software is easy..its just easy.

CIM
04-28-2003, 05:02 AM
See for yourself just how bad LW's animation tools are before trying other programs. I do suggest you try other programs, becuase rigging and animation is probably the hardest thing in CG, so the better the tool, the easier your task will be (which is what matters).

SplineGod
04-28-2003, 05:15 AM
Originally posted by Julez4001
Come on Spline..
Isn't that really out of left field, sure demo reels do this but that likes telling someone LW discovery is easy to use and in fact both it (and messiah/motionBuilder) are the full app working.

If a software is easy..its just easy.
Easy is a relative term. Anything is easy if you know how to do it. Ive seen people model heads and make it look easy and then someone buys the software on the pretense that the demo guy made it look easy only to be extremely frustrated by their inability to produce a reasonable head in a reasonable amount of time.
Is Messiah easy? To some yes and others no. Is it easier then another program? Maybe.
My point is completely true. A demo showing off a program is designed to wow, entice and make it look easy for the express purpose of convincing someone to buy the software.
My opinion is that every program is pretty much as easy and difficult as any other program if you dont already have some understanding of the principles of rigging and animating.
Hes already got Lightwave. Spending time in Lightwave to learn the principles and "language" of animation in order to pick up those skills makes more sense then spending even more money.
CIM in his left field way is correct. Spend the time with the software you have to determine if something else is needed when you reach a level of competence to make an intelligent choice. I have also found that which is the best app can very much depend on the constraints of the task.

rock
04-28-2003, 05:47 AM
Infinity3D,

There is a section here at CGTalk forum dedicated to Messiah and MotionBuilder. You might want to take a look there.

Rock

Infinity3d4life
04-28-2003, 06:58 AM
Hey thanks everyone for replying and giving me your opinions... I have been working with lightwave for awhile now, and even though i am comfortable at modeling, i have hardly ever ventured over to the animation, and setup parts of lightwave.. Sure i've rigged a couple of characters, and played with animation before, but now i'm looking to dive deeper into animation.. I just wanted to know if there was a clear cut advantage to using all the other programs... I still plan to study all there is to know about lightwaves tools for animation and setup.. Thanks again.. I know that there is no easy way to become great at what you do, but if some other tools could help the process run a little smoother i wouldn't mind it at all... :buttrock:

Michel Besner
04-28-2003, 11:51 AM
If you want to try out motionbuilder, i suggest that you get the special promotion going on until July 31st.

MOTIONBUILDER Personal Edition $100
includes
One-year license (with upgrades)
Printed books

also
free online course and VTM at www.3dbuzz.com

M.

uncommongrafx
04-28-2003, 12:21 PM
Tim Albee's book and a Vid on rigging are your best bets. That would be the $100 you would spend on motionbuilder.

Those two items will get you rigging in lw WITHOUT plugins, which is a godsend when trying to learn this schtuff. Albee's book is rather clear in getting you up to speed. The vid I ended up with was the Desktop images one, Character animation setup. Clear and concise.

After you do those two, you will be much more informed as to what YOU can do within lw, itself. With that, your research has a much firmer foundation.

freerider
04-28-2003, 01:16 PM
As Michel Besner mentioned I would suggest you head over to www.3dbuzz.com and download one of the free video training cd's available on Motionbuilder if your curious about the product.

It is not a demo made to sell the product, or to "make it look easy". But training showing you the ins and outs of the program aswell as teaching some good general animation principles. In fact I would recomend you atleast get VTM 3 regardless of what software you will be animating in since it has some killer stuff on animation.

Julez4001
04-28-2003, 06:27 PM
Try the setup machine demo for lw..or acs4
for rigging in a jiffy and excellent results, I even would like to have something like this for quick IK setups in Messiah.

3DDave
04-28-2003, 07:03 PM
I use Lightwave, Motion Builder and Messiah Studio.

Try maxing out what you can do in Lightwave before moving on. You won't really know what more you will need until you do that.

I would also recommend Motion Builder over Messiah Animate. MB is easily the best animation package on the market for character animation. It has excellent support for Lightwave and the video tutorial will get you up to speed in about a week.

Yep time is limited on that $100 deal.

Miyazaki
04-29-2003, 03:11 AM
Originally posted by Infinity3d4life
Has anyone tryed using either one of these applications?? I was wondering what the benefits are to using them.. I really want to get deep into animation now, and i'm looking for all the help i can get.. The demo vids i have seen for these products make everything look so easy....:shrug:
I agree with SG, but go with MB. Don`t forget, you`ll get the freelancer edition for just 100$ with the option to upgrade it to the permanent license for another 100$ between August and December!!! That`s a dumping price in relation to the power of MB :buttrock:
Surely you`re not going to be a better animator with it, but learning something new can`t be wrong.
P.S.: I really like to animate in LW and don`t understand why it`s always considered as crap in this area :shrug:

SplineGod
04-29-2003, 05:26 AM
Originally posted by Miyazaki
I agree with SG, but go with MB. Don`t forget, you`ll get the freelancer edition for just 100$ with the option to upgrade it to the permanent license for another 100$ between August and December!!! That`s a dumping price in relation to the power of MB :buttrock:
Surely you`re not going to be a better animator with it, but learning something new can`t be wrong.
P.S.: I really like to animate in LW and don`t understand why it`s always considered as crap in this area :shrug:
$100 for any decent 3D app is a good deal. Anything under $100 falls easily into my impulse buy range. I think another great plugin that easily falls into this range is Orthopedics. It brings Messiahs bone setup mode to Lightwave and its only $65.00
I would run over and grab the demo version online at http://www.irrationalnumber.com

tOd
11-02-2003, 02:47 PM
About 50% messiah relevant and about 50% Motionbulder relevant which makes it about 0% LW relevant. Two pages long and not moved and this one of many.

leigh
11-02-2003, 02:50 PM
tOd, this thread is FROM APRIL.

You're very quickly forcing me to run out of patience.

tOd
11-02-2003, 02:53 PM
You asked for examples on the other forum. :shrug:

Fine Leigh. Have it your way.

Have a good day.

:D

private
11-02-2003, 03:05 PM
I got the free download of Motion Builder, and if I want to upgrade before the end of the year, it's $200. However, I asked them if they have plans to be able to rig characters that aren't the traditional 2 arms, 2 legs type of characters. They told me flat out, not at this time. So if you want to animate a character with two heads, or 4 arms of 5 legs, you're out of luck.

I also asked them about selling licences in the future. No go.

I asked them about skipping upgrades, they don't have a policy yet.

I asked them about upgrade prices past 5.X, and they don't have that into place.

Seems like a wait for Lightwave 8 in December or whatever, and then make a decision before the end of the year type type.

I don't mind these threads in the Lightwave forum. :shrug: I think they have more of a right to be here rather than three page Lightwave vs. Max threads or Off Topic threads. But in the end, does it really matter. It will get pushed down in due time.

Michel Besner
11-02-2003, 05:43 PM
Hello Private,

in regards to animating more complex characters (multiple heads, more than 2 arms and legs), it is true that there is no automated rigging for such beasts but :

1. you can combine multiple bipeds to create 1 character

2. MB has a very exhaustive set of expressions and constraints that can be combined with the standard rigging.

---

Once you upgrade to a permanent license of MB STD, future major upgrades (i.e. MB v6.x) will be priced around $250usd

All minor updates for STD such as the upcoming 5.1 are free of charge.

----

Hope this answers some of your questions ...

M.

SheepFactory
11-02-2003, 06:55 PM
having used both motionbuilder and messiah animate , I would go with messiah animate any day of the week.

motionbuilder is not an intuitive package for keyframe animation , and its a real pain in the neck to transfer your model \set up all the bone names \ do the weighting in the host package which is the worst of all.


another part where messiah scores is you are not limited to using two default rigs like in motionbuilder , you can build your own custom rigs easily. I know you can also set up custom rigs in motionbuilder but try and see which package is more intiutive.

but talk is cheap , there are demos available for both softwares so check em out yourself with your own models.

private
11-03-2003, 01:10 AM
Originally posted by Michel Besner
in regards to animating more complex characters (multiple heads, more than 2 arms and legs), it is true that there is no automated rigging for such beasts but :

1. you can combine multiple bipeds to create 1 character

2. MB has a very exhaustive set of expressions and constraints that can be combined with the standard rigging.


Hello Michel,

Could you point me to an example or a tutorial to see this in action. To be able to do non standard characters is the basic sticking point for me.

Better yet, if you could get one of those video tutorials on the subject, and I could see it in action, I would be that much closer to purchasing the software before the deadline. I don't think I'm alone. Please show that it's possible, and I'd think the sales would follow. :)

Julez4001
11-03-2003, 03:20 AM
Originally posted by SplineGod
....Orthopedics. It brings Messiahs bone setup mode to Lightwave and its only $65.00
I would run over and grab the demo version online at http://www.irrationalnumber.com

Thats a bold (and in my opinion-false) comparison.
True Ortho has a kool toolset but it doesn't compare to Setup Mode in Messiah. But they both have demos so one can easily decide but don't jump to conclusions like that or Newtek will never alter character toolset.

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