CGTalk - [WIP] Transmutative Growth. Input welcome.

CybrGfx

01-14-2008, 12:41 PM

You'll need to adjust the dragon face. You have the snout too short, and the lower jaw too long, giving it an extreme underbite, not to mention the top fangs will simply pierce the lower jaw if he ever closed his mouth...

The facial expression is messed up, because you have bad facial anatomy on the skull. Try drawing the face on the skull not screaming, and you will see that the nose is far too short, and the nose and mouth are both too high up on the skull. Your nose does not shrink when you scream. The size remains the same, only the overlying skin crinkles up at the bridge, as the skin over the cheeks and around the mouth stretches. Look in a mirror.

What is the age of this character? It does not have the features of a child, althought the original sketch did. The body anatomy is that of a dwarf, with a too small chest and upper torso. But the legs are disproportionately long for a dwarf (or a child).
You need to overlay your original sketch, and bring the anatomy back into line.

Interesting concept. You have your work cut out for you. I suggest you focus on the person first, and get the anatomy worked out before moving on to the dragon, even though the dragon is the fun part.

SpaXe

01-15-2008, 07:09 AM

Is this transformation painful? The look on the man's face comes across more as if he's wailing, rather than screaming in agony.

Only when you have mentioned that did I notice the emotion difference. Oops. I'll take the brows downwards, and possibly changing the mouth shape in the future. Thanks much.

CybrGfx: Awesome attention to detail, mate. After I read your comments, I took a look at my painting, and I realized that you were totally correct! =D. So I went back and fixed a few things. I haven't touched the dragon yet, but I made a note on the jaw sizes. I really appreciate your input.

It's really late here and I can't believe I'm painting without an anatomy book. Fixed the face on the top of my head, but I'm still not happy with it. I'll pay closer attention to it tomorrow when I get to it. I promise.

As to the age of the character, I'd like to keep him as young adult. As I have posted in the previous posts, I didn't want the character to look like a kid. You can see the different in the light retrace in the second update in the thread. :). As I go along, I'll make sure to make changes.

I'd like to say, I'm not really following the original sketch. It's something I have to paint based on, but not as a canon or anything. You never know. It's like writing a novel. ;)

Update before bed tonight. It's midnight . . .

http://enchantedexplosives.com/images/VFS/Demo%20Reel/dragon004.jpg

@ Greenham: I think the fact it looks good is because the original size is 3000 px in width. Here's a close up for you, and for others to see my anatomy errors. =P. Will fix.

http://enchantedexplosives.com/images/VFS/Demo%20Reel/dragon004a.jpg

SpaXe

01-15-2008, 07:38 AM

Oops. Thanks to one of my friends, noticed a huge error in the teeth, and fixed. ;)

http://enchantedexplosives.com/images/VFS/Demo%20Reel/dragon005a.jpg

http://enchantedexplosives.com/images/VFS/Demo%20Reel/dragon005.jpg

SpaXe

01-16-2008, 08:35 AM

Update again. Have to sleep earlier today . . even though it's 1:30 am. :P

http://enchantedexplosives.com/images/VFS/Demo%20Reel/dragon1_006.jpg

Greenham

01-16-2008, 10:42 AM

I have one question: Why is he pregnant? :)

CybrGfx

01-16-2008, 03:15 PM

Thank you for the close up. It really does make a difference at a smaller, lower resolution!

Okay, that face...It's bad, mate. Not horrendous, but bad. You did NOT place your features on the skull before working too hard on the shading and details. The ear is too far back on the skull, the nose is poorly rendered, with the nostrils two different shapes, with the openings also inconsistent, and the entire perspective more full-face, than 3/4.
I adjusted the brightness of this to better show what I am seeing:
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/5241/screamdetailkq4.jpg

The lips are truly bad, and the teeth still not at all realistic. Those teeth should still be connected to the jawbone, which you seem to have lost somewhere. Look closely, and you will see that you've painted the front teeth like baby teeth on the bottom, very tiny, and getting tinier as they go back into the mouth...As I suggested before, and suggest again, look in a mirror. If your teeth and lips look like this, my apologies, carry on...But, just basing my observations on what I perceive as "normal," I expect to see a mouth and teeth more like this:
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/9520/screamjl3.jpg

http://gammablog.com/gammablablog/images/6-03/6-9/scream-out/finley3.jpg
http://www.motihasson.com/exhibitions/mcdonald/screaming.jpg
http://www.lifehack.org/wp-content/files/2007/05/20070522-screaming-mouth-open.jpg
You should not need an anatomy book. Your own face should provide you with all the anatomy you need. A google image search should then help you with the finer details.

Your lips should be stretched taut around your gaping mouth. They are not lumpy or crevassed, and there is very little to no "cupid's bow" of the top lip. This guy looks like a really bad advertisement for collagen lip injections.
The teeth should not all have gaps big enough to hide pebbles in. The mouth has (for most people) 32 teeth, or 16 top and 16 bottom. From the 3/4 angle of the head, you should not see the bottom gums at all, the lips are stretched over them from the jaw dropping.
Likewise, the skin of the lower part of the face should be showing the folds that occur when the jaw is pulled down so far for a scream, not just the lines from the nose to the lips. The back of the tongue will rise, and the teeth of the lower jaw will not rise up.

You say you want him to be a "young adult," but you have not adjusted the wonky anatomy! The arms are still misshapen (GAH! That right shoulder just makes me cringe!), and the torso, while proportionate for the overall body, looks squished up with the Preganant shirt and the lumpy butt, which is too high.

You are still playing with the coloring, rather than tightening up the anatomy, and the viewer will notice the bad anatomy MUCH more than the coloring. Trust.
Your foundation is still too unstable for this piece. You are essentially wasting your very limited time by coloring and playing with his shirt. Fix the anatomy first. Then work on his fashion statement for men's dragon maternity wear. Until you do that, everything else is just aimless paint daubing.

~Cyber

SpaXe

01-17-2008, 10:35 AM

Greenham: Blame my flat shading. :P. There is air flow blowing from behind the character.

CyberGfx: I really, really, really appreciate your criticism. After reading it, and accidentally bump into other artists' stuff (which took about 2 hours of luxurious time looking at paintings, listening to interviews, etc.) and I am once again encouraged greatly. Took a picture of myself for the wrinkles reference, and fixed the face for the good of all.

I will began a complete revamp of the sketch before I go on now, I think. Shouldn't take long, but will be very careful. :)

http://enchantedexplosives.com/images/VFS/Demo%20Reel/dragon1_007.jpg

CybrGfx

01-17-2008, 01:26 PM

MUCH improved! I know you put a lot of effort into this, only to be going back to revise your sketch, but look at all you have learned! Now, carefully establishing a solid foundation, you will progress faster and better when you do get to the fun coloring part.

Art is like most things in Life. You will get out of it what you put into it. If you rush into the "fun" part without proper preparation, you will get the "instant gratification" of doing something, but it will not withstand much in the way of time or scrutiny. Something like throwing all the ingredients for a cake into the pan, without greasing it, or mixing the ingredients properly...The result will be nothing of the caliber that it is when proper procedures are followed.

I must really, really, really thank YOU for having a thick enough skin to not be personally hurt or offended by my comments. That, too, is the mark of a true professional, to glean what is logical or useful, without taking the criticism as a personal attack. To simply imagine the concepts that members take the time to draw/paint/share on this site is an accomplishment. To bring the works to full completion, correcting the most glaring flaws, and following through in refining the work, is a high achievement. This piece may take you some time, but the end result will definitely be worth every second.

Looking forward to your next update, but do not rush unecessarily. The best things are worth the wait...

SpaXe

01-19-2008, 09:48 AM

MUCH improved! I know you put a lot of effort into this, only to be going back to revise your sketch, but look at all you have learned! Now, carefully establishing a solid foundation, you will progress faster and better when you do get to the fun coloring part.

True words. Though, I have to say, it has been fun ever since the beginning. =)

Art is like most things in Life. You will get out of it what you put into it. If you rush into the "fun" part without proper preparation, you will get the "instant gratification" of doing something, but it will not withstand much in the way of time or scrutiny. Something like throwing all the ingredients for a cake into the pan, without greasing it, or mixing the ingredients properly...The result will be nothing of the caliber that it is when proper procedures are followed.

QFT. Can't have been said better.

I must really, really, really thank YOU for having a thick enough skin to not be personally hurt or offended by my comments. That, too, is the mark of a true professional, to glean what is logical or useful, without taking the criticism as a personal attack. To simply imagine the concepts that members take the time to draw/paint/share on this site is an accomplishment. To bring the works to full completion, correcting the most glaring flaws, and following through in refining the work, is a high achievement. This piece may take you some time, but the end result will definitely be worth every second.

Thank you once again. I've come to learn the difference between criticizing and constructive criticism, and creditability, as well as personal ego and all that. I can confidently say, bash all you want, really, but with your analysis and detailed mistakes to fix, it really helps me to see which part was really wrong. Also, the fact that I didn't use any references until you post made another big difference. It was my first time taking a self-picture just for reference, heh. Works great.

This Wednesday I attended my school's first VFX Dailies event. It is a short period of time (we had 50 minutes total for everyone) for work in progress presentations, followed by criticisms. Rarely was there anything positive; in fact, 99% of the things I've heard in the event was negative: this is wrong, that doesn't look right, change this might improve, etc. However, the quality of the presentation was on par above average. It was a harsh event, but nonetheless, everyone who presented learned a lot during that short amount of time. It was also a nice opportunity to see what other people were doing in their demo reel projects.

That said, I'd like my threads to stay that way as well. I really don't care about others' opinion about my works - it doesn't really matter. However, if the opinion is valuable and helpful, I take it and improve anything I can. I think it is the best way to keep going towards the goal I have set up for myself.

I respect your time spent for my thread, and it's only the beginning! ;)

=============================================

Update. I've decided to break down the original concept into two pictures. It should be quite interesting.

After these I will do another approach - a physical one. Stretchy skins and all that. :P

http://enchantedexplosives.com/images/VFS/Demo%20Reel/dragon1_010b.jpg

SpaXe

01-20-2008, 07:01 AM

Another update. Man. I slept at 4:30am last night and woke up at 6pm today. =(. Loss of time.

Please comment or share your thoughts! This project will take me months (and this is just exploring and having fun part XD.)

List to fix: (It's midnight here, heh.)
- Trim the body mass to enhance the perspective. Right now it's like a barrel. XD.
- Feet are too short.
- Arms are out of whack
- sky needs more work
- scales.

http://enchantedexplosives.com/images/VFS/Demo%20Reel/dragon1_011b.jpg

Greenham

01-20-2008, 09:38 AM

It's looking good so far, but I would try and avoid the full moon cliche. I'd go for either early morning or late afternoon. I'm not sure why, I just imagine if I were to ever grow wings and start breathing fire, early morning or late afternoon would be the time to do it.

CybrGfx

01-20-2008, 04:59 PM

The moon does not bother me, as much as the head appears to be too small, which then appears somewhat exaggerated by the high contrast moon behind it. I do not feel that the head needs to be more massive, as much as made larger in length and skull height...something for you to consider.

I like the night setting of this, because it focuses on the subject matter, not distracting the viewer with scenery and lighting. The moon, to that effect is better than just a cloudy sky, which would be a bit of a visual "cop out."

The scales...OOOoooooh. I LIKE the way these are starting to develop! The center ridge thing looks weird though. It protrudes so sharply at the bottom, but appears to flatten out the farther up the dragon it goes. It also looks like a back ridge, as I do not ever recall seeing any type of creature with a ridge down the stomach...Considering that dragons are "historically" considered as "fire lizards," you almost need a compelling visual reason to make such a dramatic anatomical evolution. The color does not help.

I prefer the front paw on the LH side of the canvas, rather than the "hand" shaped one on the right, but that will depend on how much of the transformation you want to retain "human" traits. Consistency will be the keyword, whichever way you go.

This does bring up the transformation itself.
Will you have the human in clear detail, along with the dragon, and then be painting a type of growing a morphing effect? If so, you should rough it out, because you will be needing far less detail on the dragon where it will be overlaid with morph effects, as the dragon will then, in that area, become background, with the human the foreground, and the morph effect the midground. The dragon, as you are currently painting him, actually looks good without the human, just from the perspective you have him at.

Also, as much as I love those scales, what is the light source shining on his kneecap? It's terribly strong, and conflicts quite hard with your overall atmosphere and lighting. It that kneecap spotlight your main light source (which it currently appears to be)? What is causing it? If you plan to illuminate all the scales like the knee, you will then run into possible issues with lighting. Again, something for further consideration...

Yes, this one will take awhile, but it is looking quite promising. Keep up the efforts!

~Cyber

SpaXe

01-24-2008, 06:03 AM

Wow, sorry for the late reply. Weekdays do keep me busy, heh.

Before I respond to the replies, let me pull up the most recent "update" (more like a playing-around) for the piece.

http://enchantedexplosives.com/images/VFS/Demo%20Reel/dragon1_012b.jpg

Before I hear any screams about the scales' disappearance, let me clarify. I thought my research on scales was good enough. It turned out I was wrong when I did even more research today. The scales on the last update should not have been there, and those are mostly commonly seen on the "top" of the skins, not on the belly or any underparts. I apologize for that.

Then I played around and painted it over, suddenly thought to try human again. I wouldn't call this a finished piece, no, but I like the idea. So, I'm going to keep doing it, but I think it's a good stage (before it's too late) to stop a little and actually come up with a useable design and procedure of transformation before I actually call this a finished piece.

Okay, now the responses.

Night scene. It was specificially chosen to contrast the golden/copper scales of the dragon, as well as a good environment of a cold color that wouldn't blur the focus. The moon is cliche, I know, but it provides a good reason for high contrast lighting at night.

About the belly scales, I apologize for lack of research. Ever since I started drawing dragons, each one of them had those. It's some . . . impressionistic thing, I guess. I'm looking into existing dinosaurs (edit: Wait, existing dinosaurs? Did I also mention existing dragons? ;) ), lizards, and bats as well. Oh, and alligators. I am going to try to do my best to come up with a much more realistic anatomy rather than stereo-typed scales.

I'd like the trait of the human to be . . . almost completely gone in the dragon form. That said, there are a lot of similarities. If you actually look into anatomy of a 4-legged creature, say, dogs, they are not too far away from human. Though I prefer paws over hands. =P.

Will you have the human in clear detail, along with the dragon, and then be painting a type of growing a morphing effect?

Absolutely. In fact, I am going to do a lot more research and planning before I go on. This thread will hopefully end up with roughly a dozen studies and a complete painting in 5 weeks or so.

One last thing before I go to bed today. Yes. I realize the anatomy is wrong somewhere. I feel that. So, that said, please feel free to point out any errors you see. If I had a model posing for me... oh well. =(.

SpaXe

01-25-2008, 10:23 AM

Trying to sqeeze as much time as I could. Hehe.

A small update this time. I started on the dragon proportion study, and partially design.

http://enchantedexplosives.com/images/VFS/Demo%20Reel/dragon3.jpg

CybrGfx

01-27-2008, 01:06 AM

Wow. You really ARE seriously thinking about this one!

For the underbelly...Komodo Dragon? Allegator's drag themselves across the ground, and their bellies reflect that. Komodos walk.

LOVE the idea of having a multitude of studies and versions as this develops. Excellent!
The dragon one is a goodie. Keeping in mind your theory that there are some anatomical/skeletal similarities between 4-limbed creatures, before you bring that dragon up on his hind legs like a man, perhaps try to draw the man down on all fours like a dragon? You will find that the spine is your major focus for differences. The hips and shoulder blades are the skeletal determining factors. The way the limbs attach to the spine is in relation to the method of locomotion. That is why the legs of dogs and cats are not like human legs, even though they can stand on their hind legs in a humanoid fashion...

I notice that the dragon study shows it on the ground. That, too, is something you should be taking into consideration. If the lizard is normally on all fours, does that not indicate that you should possibly have the human perhaps bent over as the process begins, and ending up on all fours, rather than having the dragon standing, since it's going to then fall over onto it's front feet?

Or will this be a "Godzilla - Man walking in a giant rubber suit" type dragon? How does your dragon get around when his limo isn't handy? Sure, they fly. But what about when they land? Do they perch on giant back haunches like a bird or a bat? or are the front legs long enough for it to go down to all fours? Inanely nosy minds want to know... ;)

Check this (http://www.kirchersociety.org/blog/2006/03/10/the-time-warp-walkers/) out to see a family that walks on all fours.

~Cyber

SpaXe

01-30-2008, 08:00 AM

For the underbelly...Komodo Dragon? Allegator's drag themselves across the ground, and their bellies reflect that. Komodos walk.
Yup. Komodo dragons are by far in my opinion the most realisic mytical dragon with some undefeasible weight I can play around with. Also, somewhat dexterious, which makes them a good animation subject. :)

Keeping in mind your theory that there are some anatomical/skeletal similarities between 4-limbed creatures, before you bring that dragon up on his hind legs like a man, perhaps try to draw the man down on all fours like a dragon? You will find that the spine is your major focus for differences. The hips and shoulder blades are the skeletal determining factors. The way the limbs attach to the spine is in relation to the method of locomotion. That is why the legs of dogs and cats are not like human legs, even though they can stand on their hind legs in a humanoid fashion...

Great idea! How come I never thought of that. Well, it's taken by heart! Thanks much again.

This weekend I've come across several difficulties as to how the skeletonal structure actually works, and a few areas that I haven't explored yet. In fact, I made myself a 3D proxy dragon out of the drawing above and an estimated front view, and took a good look at how it actually looks with turn-around volumes and proportions. I'm beginning to like it, though several anatomy locations still need some more definition.

I ran some bones through the proxy as well, and started my first 4-legged creature rig. It should be simple, no stretching needed, and hopefully achievable to most of the major poses with only a handful of controls. So far, I got the leg to work, and the spine is looking good. I got help with severa friends and a mentor of mine, and things are progressing slowly but well.

I notice that the dragon study shows it on the ground. That, too, is something you should be taking into consideration. If the lizard is normally on all fours, does that not indicate that you should possibly have the human perhaps bent over as the process begins, and ending up on all fours, rather than having the dragon standing, since it's going to then fall over onto it's front feet?

Yup! Great idea! Totally agreed.

Sure, they fly. But what about when they land? Do they perch on giant back haunches like a bird or a bat? or are the front legs long enough for it to go down to all fours? Inanely nosy minds want to know... ;)

Haha. Think of griffin with a cuguar body. By the way, that link is amusing! Wow! I'd . . . never imagined that. O_O. New things every day.

===

I've been thinking of taking this idea another step further while I get the concept painting completed. Been thinking about this for a couple of weeks, in fact. This thread might have to continue on into the WIP Animation soon - student demo reel WIP.

How about a live action human transforms into a dragon? ;)

CybrGfx

01-30-2008, 09:19 AM

How about a live action human transforms into a dragon? ;)

Well, it would help you with the dragon designing, that's for sure! It'd make a hell of a demo reel for ILM (Industrial Light & Magic), I'd think...

Glad you're progressing, SAVE all those experiementals!

~Cyber

SpaXe

02-01-2008, 08:42 AM

Here's a storyboard I've been revising. Still sketchy, but I can't waste time on drawing when they might be cut out the next day.

http://enchantedexplosives.com/images/VFS/Demo%20Reel/VFX-Storyboard-Academy-v3.jpg

I'll look into moving this thread to the animation section once I have some animatic done, and basic animation tests. =)

Any comments on the storyboard is welcome before it's set in stone!

CybrGfx

02-01-2008, 11:45 AM

Wow.

I LIKE the storyboard! Nicely thought out. GOOD work!

At the end, you might consider audibly tying it back to the beginning, after the dragon roar, to go back to heavy breathing as you move in to show the tear.

Now that you have a general storyboard, time to start writing out the details.
Lighting source direction and strength
Background
What sort of transformations are going to happen? BE DETAILED! Will scales sprout from the skin, or will the skin just morph into a scaled texture?
How will the human face morph into a lizard? We know the neck will lengthen, and the nose and jaw push forward as the eyes pull up and back, but moving the ears up while the eyes are going back will take a bit of thought for the physics. It will animate quicker and easier if you focus on specific parts of the face, rather than illustrating the entire head transforming, so you need to determine what "mini-animation" sequences you will be illustrating. Write it all down, step by step, in detail. How the claws extend, how the skeletal structure will be changing. If you've ever seen a werewolf movie, you might consider a similar type of transformation sequence, just without the excess hair...;)

You still have a bit of Environmental conflict to work out. It looks like a hallway or doorway as the transformation starts, but then a valley. Again, start brainstorming and writing down the details of that valley. Deciduous or conifer? Rocky or hilly? Season? Era? It's easier to draw and paint it if you have clear directions written down...

Now that you have your dragon rough, your next step should be to get your human rough on the ground, so you have your transformation point 'A' and point 'B'. You know you will have at least one head transformation, if not 3-4 (neck/jaw/mouth, eyes, ears/skull/hair) and at least 2-3 for the body (hand, wings/shoulders, legs, tail). You should write down these details, so that you know what other point 'A' to point 'B' models you need to create.

I think it will be much easier to transform him from on his knees on the ground than standing up, and will give you a much better opportunity to create the "mini-transformations" than trying to show the entire body all expanding and shifting at the same time.

This is looking to be an exciting animation. Now work on writing down as much information about it as possible, from the "How many different 'A' to 'B' animations do I need? perspective, and then detailing the process for each one. Then back to the modelling board to create all those 'A's and 'B's...

Looking forward to your next update!

~Cyber

SpaXe

02-04-2008, 03:54 AM

CybrGfx, every time I read your post it gave me something to think about, and thus driving me to go forward. This is awesome. I had the idea in mind, originally inspired from Underworld (a fair movie, but VFX was cool.) and Brother Bear. Also another movie that got me to this point but I could not remember.

Anyhow, I put together a simple animatic, and roughed out the timing. I will try to get back to this project, but many other things are rushing in, and I have to finish them first . . .

The next update hopefully will be a lot more. =)

http://enchantedexplosives.com/images/VFS/Demo%20Reel/Animatic/Animatic_with_SB_v1.mov

This is the link to the animatic, it's H.264 in Quicktime, about 45MB. Please download and save instead of streaming.

SpaXe

02-14-2008, 11:39 AM

Just wanted to pop on and make sure that everyone knows I'm still alive and breathing fire.

http://enchantedexplosives.com/images/VFS/Demo%20Reel/Citadel_Thumbnail_01.jpg
I've decided to go with a dark fantasy theme with a touch of gothic and emotional abstractism. So, did some thumbnailing when I finally had time, and I especially liked this one. I will be making progresses on this, as well as the transformation shot. Oh my, how long has this been . . .

No worries. It'll come soon! ;)

CybrGfx

02-14-2008, 01:15 PM

That IS a good thumbnail!

Just a gentle word of caution...
Don't get carried away with the externals.

I would suggest keeping a "core" animation as your goal first.
FINISH the transformation from human to dragon.
THEN, make the fancy backgrounds and camera angle shots.

You haven't updated in a bit, so your workflow is not clearly presented here, but if you have not yet completed the transformation, you need to go back and complete that step.

You will find any project faster and smoother to implement if you do not approach it "scattershot," with a little work here, then you jump over and do a little work there, than come back and do some changes somewhere else...It looks like you are starting to overcomplicate this project, with no clear plan of attack.

The transformation is your focus, not an Industrial Light and Magic production with an elaborate gothic castle with a touch of abstractionism...Stay focused. Once you have the transformation [i]fully finished[i], you can then decide how much time you want to spend on the background. Truthfully, you don't need the background. If your animation follows the camera angle of the pre-short you posted, the background is not that big of an issue.

Suggestion for the end: After the transformation, and after the single tear rolls down from the eye, perhaps you could have the dragon simply flap its wings and take off into the dark night sky (clear? cloudy? moonlit?).

~Cyber

SpaXe

02-15-2008, 02:52 AM

Just a gentle word of caution...
Don't get carried away with the externals.

Point taken. I actually got this citadel idea from a classmate of mine, on the way home chatting about our projects (he's doing something entirely different, having to do with planes and explosions with water effects). He saw my animatic, and thought the environment was a church. I clarified that it was to be some sort of cave, but then he suggested a citadel. We discussed, and I liked the idea. So it's been only about 3 days since I got that idea, and I've gathered ~200 pictures for a gothic style citadel, enough to throw any details I want anywhere in the structure. I cleaned up the lines a tiny bit and defined it a little more today.

http://enchantedexplosives.com/images/VFS/Demo%20Reel/Citadel-Design.jpg

I would go into that front view and make another detailed illustration, but currently, I have another 7 days til a presentation for school. I have choices. Either I can work on some transformation tests, or I can start modeling this thing. Hmm.

I would suggest keeping a "core" animation as your goal first.
FINISH the transformation from human to dragon.
THEN, make the fancy backgrounds and camera angle shots.

Mostly agreed. I am on a process of redefining the storyboard as I go, while I stage each transformation and its camera angle. In fact, I'm a big fan of cinematography. I will nail down each camera shot, transitions, and moves before I animate anything, unless it's for a game engine. Fortunately, I'm 90% happy with my first animatic. The next one will hopefully be a lot more refined and detailed, with a lot more drawings and a better timing.

That said, I should consider start doing some animation tests before I bother modeling the relatively easy citadel.

You haven't updated in a bit, so your workflow is not clearly presented here, but if you have not yet completed the transformation, you need to go back and complete that step.

*guilty*. Will do! =)

You will find any project faster and smoother to implement if you do not approach it "scattershot," with a little work here, then you jump over and do a little work there, than come back and do some changes somewhere else...It looks like you are starting to overcomplicate this project, with no clear plan of attack.

I played around with simple rigging and animated textures. So far, most of them work just fine, but I bumped into a problem where wings will crash into each other when folded. (as in, the membrane itself will crash into... itself. I will post another picture of a capture to show what I mean if it is not clear.) So, that's the main problem I have not solved yet. If that is through, I have no problem flying the dragon or animate it anywhere. :)

Also, I am going to do some color bars and offsetted transformation. One of my teachers told me, his biggest pet peeve for werewolf movies, is that they all transform at the same time in the whole body. I will break that pattern, taking it as a great suggestion.

The transformation is your focus, not an Industrial Light and Magic production with an elaborate gothic castle with a touch of abstractionism...Stay focused. Once you have the transformation fully finished, you can then decide how much time you want to spend on the background. Truthfully, you don't need the background. If your animation follows the camera angle of the pre-short you posted, the background is not that big of an issue.

True words. Taken to heart.

Suggestion for the end: After the transformation, and after the single tear rolls down from the eye, perhaps you could have the dragon simply flap its wings and take off into the dark night sky (clear? cloudy? moonlit?).

Again, the wing problem. =/. In March I'll start a WIP thread in the animation section, and I'll be posting tests. By then, as soon as I can get the wings to deform the way I want it to, the rest is relatively simple. (I don't mean it to be easy, but time will prove the effort.)

Otherwise, another take on the transformation painting:

http://enchantedexplosives.com/images/VFS/Demo%20Reel/Metamorphosis_One_Sheet_v2_WIP_01_pic.jpg

Greenham

02-15-2008, 08:40 AM

I like your last image, but the facial features don't match up with the angle of the head.

I commend you on your extensive planning for this project.

SpaXe

02-16-2008, 12:00 AM

I like your last image, but the facial features don't match up with the angle of the head.

I commend you on your extensive planning for this project.

Thanks. I'm still in the last stage of pre-viz and beginning to R&D, but hopefully things will turn out all right. Today was the graduation of 3d66 here at Vancouver Film School, and I saw their demo reels. Some nice stuff was on there . . . and one guy had a dragon rig. Not fully function, but he somehow managed to fold/expand the wing without crashing. It didn't deform perfectly, in my own opinion, but it was something I can dig into.

Pre-production is the foundation of the project, I'd say.

Also, I don't know what to say about the line drawing. Maybe my nose just isn't perfect.

http://enchantedexplosives.com/temp/that_is_xavier_horrified.jpg
(http://forums.cgsociety.org/)

CybrGfx

02-16-2008, 04:04 AM

SpaXe

02-16-2008, 08:47 AM

I don't know that much about animation, so if this is totally off, just ignore it.

Perhaps you are making the wings too complex, too early. Can you have the wings as essentialy rough "blob" shapes that expand out of the body, and then once clear enough from each other, sharpen in detail and texture, becoming the dragon?

~Cyber

Ironically, making a pair of wings growing out of the body, in today's standard, isn't really categorized under "Animation", but more like.. "Effects". But that's beside the point.

I need as many pair of eyes as I can get, and hopefully poke out all the mistakes as early as possible. Right now, I'm thinking that "blobbing" out the wing and transform is probably... the same difficulty as actually having the wings grow out. A week ago, I saw a Houdini demo from an instructor (also an online tutorial that you can find somewhere), in which he made a character rise out of a pile of water that was formed by melted ice in about... 45 minutes. That was awesome. So, taking that idea, procedure, and a fair amout of time of research, I'm confident that I can achieve similar effects with the wings the way you suggested.

To be honest with you, I have no idea if this will really work. I'm putting the idea out there, consulting multiple people, including my mentors, and have them evaluate if this is possible under the limited time frame we have, and resources and budget. So far, and I might have mentioned it before, it hasn't been turned down, but evolved quite a bit. By the way, I like the ending you suggested. I think I'll take that into account and modify the last camera to do that. :) Thanks. (I can never thank you enough. I've secretly decided to have your name on my end credit list when it's actually done.)

Animation, breaking down, is a series of images flashing through our eyes. We all know that. Your comments have been a great boost for me, and helped me in many ways. I have to thank you again for that, and more times in the future, if you are still willing to watch my work. =)

So, don't worry about any technical stuff (but suggest some if you know some tricks! ;) ). I'll do as much research as I need to figure out things. I'll make it work. *nods*

Edit: It's really funny (at least for me, and I'm not being offensive) that some people in our class who goes to VFX stream thinks that, oh, we'll learn what we need to put on our reel, being taught this, and that, and this mentor has awesome experience with what we're doing right now, he can help us . . . and it's the exact opposite. It's true that people really helped us when we are stuck into some strange places we don't see, but most of the time, research and tests, tests, tests are all self-driven and done outside of class. So... yeah. I think it's just about how bad you want to be there (at the top) and how much work you put into it.

I give a big thank to ... what's his name... Bobby Chiu for that. =)

SpaXe

02-19-2008, 05:32 AM

http://enchantedexplosives.com/images/VFS/Demo%20Reel/Metamorphosis_One_Sheet_v2_WIP_02.jpg

*exhausted and needs sleep*

CybrGfx

02-19-2008, 03:16 PM

It is a well worn phrase, reworded through the years, that you get out of Life what you put into it.
Paul McCartney wrote, "The love you take is equal to the love you make." Life proves this out continually.
I am so glad that my additional set of eyes have been able to help you in any way, and that this idea is blossoming for you into such a great project, involving all kinds of other people. That is when creating is more than satisfying, it is exciting.
If you put me in the credits, send me a screen shot for my "brag book!"

I LIKE this update image, showing the scales growing. Since scales are similar to fingernails, the imagery is appropriate.

Do you have a time plan Gantt chart for this project yet? If not, I suggest you make one. It will help SO much to keep you on track, and progressing in a controlled manner.

Glad things are continuing forward,
~Cyber

SpaXe

02-20-2008, 02:07 AM

That is so true. I'm glad I realized the phrase... most of it. I think there's probably more to it, though. If I can find it . . .

http://enchantedexplosives.com/images/VFS/Demo%20Reel/Metamorphosis_One_Sheet_v2.jpg

We're required to make a one sheet for the reel, as a practice. It's not really to sell or anything, but by Friday we're to pitch our ideas to the school. So, it's kinda cool, I suppose.

I'm hoping to get one test done by Friday also. This is the proposed one sheet.

A Gantt chart . . . I learned something new again. That looks like a great idea.

CybrGfx

02-20-2008, 12:04 PM

Trey Stone and Matt Parker, the creators of South Park, Team America - World Police, and Orgasmo, the Musical, among other works, had a two year Gantt chart to become rich and famous through their filmmaking. Every day, they would ask, "where are we on the chart?" and would then tackle whatever they had planned out towards their success. Things fell into place at 1 year, 9 months... If it's important, plan it and Gantt chart it, then follow your Plan.

The Reel sheet looks good. The shirt on the LH side is a bit too wrinkled and angular in shape, and you may want to make the teeth of the dragon mouth turn a bit more pointy near the corners to emphasize the transformation. Possibly, you may want the tongue forked and starting to stick out of the mouth (but, I am not sure if it would look good or not). I think you will find a good reception of this concept. The one-sheet reads very impressively.

Onward!
~Cyber

SpaXe

02-22-2008, 07:15 AM

Ah, cool ideas. I'll take them into account when I finalize my dragon design.

Right now I'm not sure if I actually want to spend time on the sheet anymore. Must move on . . .

. . . and I made a Gantt chart. By myself (which is not good at all. I think I'll talk to my teacher tomorrow about it and have him look at it.) Sometimes I can't see if the duration written there is realistic or not. I know how fast I model and texture, and animate. I'm just not so sure anymore when the project is long.

Link to the sheet here. (http://enchantedexplosives.com/images/VFS/Demo%20Reel/Metamorphosis_Gantt_v1_web.png)

The only thing that is ambiguous in the time is the Shooting dates. I'm still contacting my actor and other crews to set up a time. Besides that, I should be able to start modelling and that soon enough.

Hopefully, if I do it right, things will fall into place as the plan. I still need to do more tests before March.

Please tell me that I'm not realistic at all when you see the chart. ;) It'll change yet.

CybrGfx

02-22-2008, 02:32 PM

Good looking Plan and Chart.
You will find it SO much better to follow your plan and meet your deadlines this way. Be sure to include your chart in your project paperwork when you submit it for a grade.

Only you can say if the chart is within realistic expectations. As you wrote, you know your production speed, and available time. It looks well thought out, with the various sections of the animation and rendering addressed. If needed, you can break that chart down into daily time allocations for a week, with specific endgoals for each day.

You are still missing other deadlines on this, such as your one-sheet...;)
I also think you should include a half hour or so a week for feedback, and uploading a "progress image" for us here at CGT. :)
Cover ALL aspects of the project. Include time for consultations.

The worst part of Gantts is the fact that by putting your goals in front of you this way, you can feel "controlled" by your plan, but depending on your personal motivation and drive for the plan, that is often also the main benefit. Once you have fullfilled that day/week/month's goals, any remaining allotted time is then yours to apply to something else, or to just relax.

Looking good, keep it up!

~Cyber

SpaXe

02-29-2008, 05:38 AM

Wow, daily goals. I have never gone planning into that kind of detail. I have a personal feeling that putting 30 min for "uploading images to CGTalk" might be overkill. Do you really think that's necessary?

I love the idea of being able to see my end day goal after each day. It just seems . . . a little bit tight. And, I'm not sure if planning for 180 individual days is feasible in my case: I've never done a project with the 3D medium this long. The last one was a dragon sculpture (http://www.enchantedexplosives.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/spaxe_red_dragon_f008.jpg) I did back in highschool, and it lasted roughly 4 months without a time plan. I spent every free moment I had (lunch time included) to work on it. At the end, it didn't turn out as well as I wanted it to, but everyone else at the time liked it, so I made no comment on that.

That was my experience. The thing is, without a time chart, I didn't know how much time I need to spend on a certain part of the sculpture. I ended up spending a lot of time on the head, but a lot less on the wings. And I didn't know when I'll be done, simply went on.

So, this time, a time chart made me see what was really important, and how long it might take me to do the entire project. But I'm still a little skeptical on setting daily goals. I feel bad not having the clear control of my day, but I'll try to work on it. I'll try really hard.

I have an idea: splitting my project into sections. I think I'll go back to the chart, and divide up the days into categories, like pre-production and production, etc, but more specific for the needs of the project. Then, I'll set up a week before the next phase, to plan out the daily goals of the next one. I feel this might work better, but we'll see.

On the side, two days ago I finally figured out how to rig the wings with a really precise control. The solution was rather simple when I got it. Man. Been trying this for a long time. That's one less problem on the technical part. :)

I do not have updates on the project right now, but soon there will be. Thanks for commenting, and I hope (not just hope, I am sure) to keep up the effort!

CybrGfx

02-29-2008, 02:27 PM

How do you eat an elephant? . . . One bite at a time.

By your own words, this is a new thing for you, something you've never really tried or applied to your workflow. You've bitten off and eaten some very large bites of elephant here, lately.
And you've managed to chew them pretty thoroughly in the process, learning quite a bit, and honing various skills through your drive and dedication to eat this large creature.

Don't worry. You're doing wonderfully. Really.
While we do not know each other personally, I am very proud of you and your accomplishments with this project, in that you are putting such thought into what you are doing, rather than just stumbling along.

You are already seeing the importance of setting goals, and then breaking those goals down to specific steps to lead up to the final goal. Those self-imposed deadlines to meet your timeline help to "ToMo" (Toe Motivation - Boot up the butt) you to get the head done, or finish the texturing, or whatever that particular goal is. Also by your own admission, on your dragon sculpture, you were slaving on it with every spare moment. While it is great that you have the drive and determination to follow through on your projects, that type of dedication can lead you to burn out. By breaking your projects down into smaller bites like this, you regulate the energy expenditure without working yourself into exhaustion, which can lead to apathy, eventually. You get too tired to care as much.

Do not confuse "daily" with "minute by minute." When you plan out a day, you only need to block out the major events. 4 hours from 2-6 pm to devote to ALL things project oriented (including 1/2 hour to fart around on CG talk in the name of "consultation/feedback"...lol!) is fine enough. If your goal for the day is to "complete the toenails," then you know where you should be at the end of 4 hours. If you finish the toenails quicker, yet still to your satisfaction, you can then goof off more, or tackle something else. Yes, it can seem extremely regimented, when you are used to la-de-da-ing around with your time, but it is not meant to last forever, it is only meant to provide you with the structure to tackle and accomplish eating a very large (18 month long) elephant, completely, thoroughly chewed and swallowed, without massive cases of heartburn along the way...It's not a race, as much as a marathon.

You are doing FINE. Your idea to break down the project into sections is exactly the type of reasonable thinking and mini-goal setting you need to be doing. As you think on it more, you will find the best breakdown for your project, at your speed, with deadlines that you feel you can achieve. Even if you break it down to just weeks, that will still give you benchmarks throughout the long road ahead that will show you exactly where you are, what you've accomplished, and where you need to go, at any time from now until completion. You don't want to constrain yourself, as much as you want to simplify your time management so that you make the most effective use of your energy in eating...;)

Now, I must go. I've used up MY allotment of time here today (a bit past, actually), in order to meet a photoshop contest deadline at noon...Keep chewing!!!

~Cyber

SpaXe

03-01-2008, 04:18 AM

Thanks for the advice, Cyber. Now what I need is a solid dragon design so I can start my production. A little detail to add, it's actually 180 days, which is only 6 months instead of 18 months. Haha. But that's okay.

Right now, texture wise, I'm thinking of a green/yellow color scheme for the dragon, tainted with a little bit of drak blue and red here and there. I'm thinking abandoned metals mixed with moss and scale.

There are a lot of designs I love but not feasible in 3D. The biggest problem I might have, right now I'm guessing, is texture stretch. The polygons are moving after all. So, it'll either have to be cheated or covered, or I just have to make a design that doesn't stretch as much. That said, all the pretty fin designs have to go. (See, Lockwood's dragon design for Copper and Gold dragons.)

I've mentinoed before that I'm looking into Lizards, Bats, Gators, and Cugars for the body anatomy. I've put more thoughts into it as I doodled a bit on the design.

So, I'm inclined towards a progression that looks like this:

Big scales -> Small scales -> Elephant/Rhino skin.

Like the old Godzilla movie but with scales, and less wrincles, basically, if that makes sense at all.

Big scales would be placed on the back of the dragon, as well as parts that doesn't move as much. Small scales will be the middle and almost all over the place. The rest would be wrinkled skins, mostly on the bottom of the paws, jaw, belly, etc.

There will be few horns. I'm still looking into how exactly horns can grow.

Also, I might have to revise my animatic again. There are two things I'd like to get rid of from the human at all costs: Ears and hair. I checked the Underworld clips again, and they literally cut away, and the next shot the hair was all gone, but not noticable because of the camera angle and focus, heh.

Also, I'm keeping the eyes' location. That means, I'm not moving them to two sides, but both would be visible on the front view, like humans and monkeys. It'll be a nice human touch, as well as better emotion controls, and still maintain the lizard-like feature by flattening the nose and mouth.

That's the idea.