Perpetual motion

[aadams]

LOL...

regardless of your loathing of *whatever* lets keep the focus of the critique on your work and keep it on the realm of fair play...


first off: your render is realistic...like it or not...its a photoreal render that attempts to go into the realm of the surreal...so here is the problem I have with the render...

a) the aliasing is really really really really grainy in all the wrong places...that isnt abstraction...its just poor render settings on materials that need either optimization or cpu time...

b) the treatment of materials seems half hearted...as in: you dont seems to care that much about the true translucency a balloon could have ....nor the color exposure of the walls nor the cloth of the curtains...nor the metalrings holding the curtains up....same thing with the periodic table...

c) there isnt a sense of perpetual motion in the composition on an abstract level...which to me is much more important than a representation of conceptual motion on a render...

d) for god sakes work the camera....use dof the right way...choose a focus....use photoshop too....just to get the focus right...

e) for god sakes look up tone mapping


about your loathing of whatever...there is therapy for that you know...including taking into your own work...

fractals are not meaningless...actually mandelbrot saved IBM's (the company) butt back in the day by using fractals to predict a ghost error.(no b.s. check it out)

but if you think they are meaningless in your world....its your world...

but in the world of computer art and graphics....

in the nicest way possible:

a) render quality setting(ZOIKS)

b) material settings to the WHOLE SCENE (TRIPLE ZOIKS)

c) concept ---> expression (ho-hum)

its like the horse from ren and stimpy...no sir...i don't like it...

[filipemaga]

Hmmm....I agree with what has been said in previous post. Nothing to add really.


I m just curious about one thing.....Can you tell me what renderer have you used ?

That image does look weird.....Seems to me that u have very bad render settings.
What is the purpose of that grain? On purpose?

Regards.

[wild-brendan]

a) the aliasing is really really really really grainy in all the wrong places...that isnt abstraction...its just poor render settings on materials that need either optimization or cpu time...



Yep, it was meant to be grainy but turned out too grainy + couldn't let it render for long enough.



b) the treatment of materials seems half hearted...as in: you dont seems to care that much about the true translucency a balloon could have ....nor the color exposure of the walls nor the cloth of the curtains...nor the metalrings holding the curtains up....same thing with the periodic table...



Spent a fair bit of time on the balloon shader so its translucent, sharp reflections and smooth base. Not fussed about the walls, and curtain rings aren't metal they're plastic. Periodic table was darkened to kinda show age and a move away from conventional sciences.



c) there isn't a sense of perpetual motion in the composition on an abstract level...which to me is much more important than a representation of conceptual motion on a render...



Don't understand what your trying to say.



d) for god sakes work the camera....use dof the right way...choose a focus....use photoshop too....just to get the focus right...

e) for god sakes look up tone mapping



No time :(



fractals are not meaningless...



Yeah they are. Anyone can open up Apophysis, move some sliders and some triangles hit the render button. They have no meaning, expression, atmosphere or focus - they're just a 'random arrangement of pixels', even if they do look pretty sometimes.

Good luck with the comp

[aadams]

lol: HUGE mistake about fractals is making fractals equal to apophysis....jajajajaja....this is where you need a history of computer graphics class.

first off check the posts...fractal generation is not limited to apophysis...houdini...python...maya...zbrush...all use fractal technology to automate visuals...fractal technology is extremely important in computer graphix.

next: look man...if it doesnt have a place in your compostion just get rid of it...no need for the balloon...nix it...OR take a photo and base your render on that...dont try and remember an idea when its a photoreal shot.

same thing for EVERY object which has materials or processor time you didnt have time to assign...nix it...its just not done....if you want to do a still life ... thats cool man, have at it...but you you light setup....you dont have to use global illumination for that feelin of global illumination.

about your argument about apo,etc.:

put up or shut up...

apo isnt easy...you just seem to think it it is...I have seen a really fine variety of apo user contributions with different processes than my own...I just happens to be the mutha to call a bluff and take interest in what you have to offer...

writing lsystems arent easy either...but its based on the same principle of creation: test evaluate test evaluate algorithms...when you are happy the the cpu process the equation...not at all the same...but similar.

and sincerely I was hoping for you to have a bit more mastery for the arguments you provoke....i mean ... wow... man if you noticed the grain on the image couldnt you just use light arrays? I mean the render looks like global illumination gone wrong...and I AM SORRY...but I was expecting more bite from your image...from the arguments you provoke.

its not like I want to be hard on you but its my instinct...you rided powell's great work and this is it? You insulted my efforts and my work and this is it? Reach deeper and push harder for *your* work...because that is the *real* representative of you...not your opinions about other peoples work...or what you might prefer to see...you accused me of spam based on my submissions...but I am sorry...but this is the height of it....the time you spend hating loathing fractals and the people who use them to make art...should be spent on decisions concerning your own work...because this piece hurts my eyes...not so much because of the concept...but the execution...technique...the craft...

but hey its all good...maybe you gave it your best shot....and good luck in the competition.

and again:

fractals are instrumental in detecting the distance between stars...they are instrumental in understanding how space is filled....and they are also tools to make focus atmosphere and meaning...

LOL

[wild-brendan]

I can't really be bothered replying to all your arguments but I'll try to sum it up into one paragraph:

When I was trying to encapsulate aspects of machinery, electronics, energy, conservation, social issues and thought processes, rendering was the least of my worries. Sure it matters when your image has no meaning since shallow aesthetics are all you have. Maybe if you took a step back, took in the image, and try use your brain to understand what the perpetual machines show you might see the light.

Please direct me to any fractal piece that has won an award...

b.t.w. its sad you don't like my piece as I dedicate it to you

[aadams]

Lolololololololololololololololololololololol

[Kev3D]

First off, I think the piece is pretty good. There is certainly a lot to take in.

Now, I am not much of an abstract artist. However, there are some that I quite like. Good abstracts usually have good aesthetic qualities, i.e. they have good composition, colour, texture, etc. They apply the emotional part of the brain as apposed to the rational.

What abstract pieces lack, this certainly has. It has a lot of realistic detail, it has a message, it has lots of realistic details. It also requires the viewer to take time to take it all in (it took me while to notice the tiny gears inside the nvidia logo).

To improve this, you would do well to take some cues from the abstract artists whom you loath. It has poor composition, objects are scattered haphazardly, there is absolutely no center of focus, there is no colour coordination, the lighting is basic.

Now, have another look at aadams' piece: freedom and limitation (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=229&t=568246). Flick between it and yours. His is pleasing to the eye. There is a sense of composition (i.e. the way the white shapes divide up the frame). Colour has been chosen carefully. There is a sense of balance and texture. I don't really care how long it took to make, to me it looks pretty good.

Just as an idea for improvement, I would focus on one of the machines (possibly the one with batteries and the little fans because I am intrigued as to how this works but can't really see it in enough detail). Arrange the camera so that it dominates a lot of the frame. Group the other machines in the background to make a tight composition.

[wild-brendan]

Thanks for the comments Morlankey. I totally agree with what both of you have to say regarding the composition, lighting etc. I would have loved to spent more effort on these issues but time did not permit.

The image would have looked a lot better if i did focus on one of the machines but it would have compromised the the direction of the piece. Heres a basic render of the windy machine:

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/5580/89032758qw3.jpg
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/5580/89032758qw3.jpg

See if you can figure out how it works (remember that it doest obey the basic laws of energy conservation, thermal dynamics, entropy etc. :D). Full description:

"Using a ultra aerodynamic fan it is possible to create a large amount of wind using just a little bit of power. An aerodynamic vortex rectifier amplifys this wind by at least two fold, which allows the inner turbine to spin even faster and with more power. With additional kinetic power supplied by side wind catchers, the mechanical torque is converted to electricity with a highly efficient generator which recharges the batteries that power the fan.

Estimated efficiency: 168%

Stage: final testing"

I might set these pieces up in their own little scenes and put them in the 3D gallery if i get the time.

[Kev3D]

Wow! I like this render much better. I like the composition, lighting, materials, overall it's a much more polished image. Good work.

[wild-brendan]

I also made a quick motion test of it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6ZihtDf2l4

Will host it on a better server, maybe.

[aadams]

yes this is much better...you should repost this one because it has more quality...more attention...and it exists closer to the concept you desire to portray

[filipemaga]

I have a couple of things to say to you Mr Brendan.

First is that you are a total ignorant and you are making a fool of yourself. Your problem. You are very uneducated after all, regarding both manners and knowledge.

Do you know that we go to the moon because of fractals? Distance between stars, use fractals?... Get some education, you stupid ignorant, and dont come over here preaching things you dont even dream about. OK ?

And regarding 3D...You are crap too....The image you provided is substandard by any standards. I wanted to be an astronaut too.....BUT I AM NOT.

There are some things i dont tolerate....STUPIDITY is one of them.
Dont even bother answering me.....i rather listen to the blowing wind. Ignorant.

P.S. Ah...and the 3D application you are using, is only good for newbies by the way.

Bye. FOREVER

[aadams]

filipe....i think u went too far on this one...your feelings are your feelings...but review point number 2 before posting...

and number one...

I consider you a good friend I have had for a long time...and as such I think you need to hold back a little...and I will voice that...publicly.

why:

because we are all here to improve...not just as artists/designers/creatives....but as human beings....if the worst thing wild brendan did was type on these forums he is still working on computer art...versus killing people...or stealing from people...or raping men women or children...so...sincerely :

I never wanted things to explode on this level.

b) brendan if you really loath fractal work and you wish to put an end to it...you must work fifteen times as hard to make stellar work that make people say otherwise....in my opinion everthing has to be checked and double checked to make the image as water tight as possible...without apology....if your image is photoreal...well you have two fronts to fight.

a) conceptual (rules of traditional photography regarding composition, subject matter)

b) technical (rendering/ compositing/materials/exposure)

this remains seperate from the scupltural aspects of your model...your model is scultpure and you are photographing in a studio.

the problem is that when we ignore this we detract from the effective message of our image...if your arent interested it could be seen as neglect...versus...conscious sacrifice.

and its neglect that detracts from the impact of your message...so that when it arrives it doesnt have much emotional influence...and you philosophic argument loses power.

its a hard road...reading studying implementing doubting loathing...searching. but in time you can prove us all wrong...with your *work* and the quality that shines from it...but the funny thing is that by the time you get there that loathing probably wont exist any more.

those are my thoughts.

please continue on your path to creativity.

p.s.

you still have time for expose 6

[wild-brendan]

There are some things i dont tolerate....STUPIDITY is one of them.
Dont even bother answering me.....i rather listen to the blowing wind. Ignorant.

Are you kidding me? How could I not respond to this steaming pile of hypocrisy.

First is that you are a total ignorant and you are making a fool of yourself. Your problem. You are very uneducated after all, regarding both manners and knowledge.

Fair enough, your entitled to your opinion - enlighten me. You should check your manners too.

Do you know that we go to the moon because of fractals? Distance between stars, use fractals?

Yeah thats great, except what we are talking about is fractal art and its lack of meaning. Its like saying meteorologists use complex algorithms to predict weather conditions so any art made from that must be amazing. In light of that, here is the most impressive piece created ever:

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/7343/tempae3.png


You have totally mis-understood my argument. I'm not saying fractals themselves are meaningless, nor that they are not aesthetically pleasing, rather that fractal art has no meaning - it is abstract art. Comprede?

And regarding 3D...You are crap too....The image you provided is substandard by any standards. I wanted to be an astronaut too.....BUT I AM NOT.

Fair nuf... as prev.

P.S. Ah...and the 3D application you are using, is only good for newbies by the way.

Sounds like my argument about Apophysis

Bye. FOREVER

Adiós, good riddance. You have helped solidify my opinion of fractal *artists*

Now back perpetual motion motion... I've found a decent place to up the vids:

Windy machine:
http://www.mediafire.com/?6urmxkuzmk4
Kinetic machine:
http://www.mediafire.com/?eomtghwy2ys
Balls machine:
http://www.mediafire.com/?4yri0dh3d3c

[aadams]

"Sounds like my argument about Apophysis"
wild brendan...listen...I hate to let you in on something but I have got a masters in computer art and nine years teaching experience...It also includes founding the first school for digital animation in Central America.

this includes maya and houdini and mental ray, etc....I taught 5 and a half years straight back to back trimesters...so you can think what you want to think...but with fifteen years of experience in and around digital media...well...I must say that you are misleading yourself to think that an apo user is automatically a newbie...and btwa maybe you should widen the vocab to "fractal flame" user.

I dont brag about it but you humor me...maybe its because you simply dont know enough about the wide variety of people you find on these forums...and I read that you are a student...and I appreciate that as well...because the execution of your ideas is well...academic.

and I dont really mind that...at least you are improving yourself

what I mind is that it seems to me that you seem to prejudge art and people with a broad brush...with not enough to show for it...to me that equals aesthetic prejudice...and a word of advice...HIDE THAT...just like people who harbor racial prejudice...HIDE IT...find another way to work it out.

there is a lot of beautiful work on either sides....and you should take time to appreciate it all for what it is...creative work done by creative individuals.

as per your arguments...well nobody is going to force you to like or dislike other peoples work...but you dont seem to have the experience it takes to critique what you dont understand...try to work on that.

because loathing me or my work will only strengthen my resolve to making it stronger...and if you think it is so easy(to make my work)...well prove it.

Powell's workflow and appoach is entirely different from my own...not just fractals but also self similar geometry creation...

onto your argument versus fractals.

not all art should have a literal meaning...especially if the contest/competition is about abstraction...

onto your own:

listen the first package I had to learn to use was studiotools...so if your idea of the abstract is hard surface detail modelling...cool...but develop the machine. Find joy is the intricacy...the precision detail...dont get distracted be motion...for now.

it is based on a supremacist theory...as your proposal leans towards the industrial/architectonic...the spaces in between the light are as important as the form...so try this:

take off ALL materials and look at it with an ambient occlusion.

replace with black shiny material against a black background.

minimize the distraction of color to the representation of form via tonal observation.


two side notes:

why I bother to help you:

not sure...maybe I feel sorry for you...nah...your lack of humility pisses me off...almost as much as your lack of mastery.

the truth is that you need help with your work...as a human and as an artist...we all do...nobody is perfect.

but dont assume you have so much talent, vision, and experience....to "lay down the law"....

with such academic offerings....it will only magnify you ignorance and let everyone know where you are coming from.

it is better to plan a visual strategy to dominate the forum...and approach it with obsession and cunning.

and prove everyone wrong....that right make it happen...shut us up with the glory of your work and how you implemented it.

btwa

filipe isnt a fractal artist....and fractal art if just a side of what I like to invest my time in....and since time is precious...I do that for me...and its definitely not to win a contest.

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