NURBS - redundent modeling method or still useful?

[roger]

I guess it really depends on where you want to work. Here is 2 ads from compines looking for Modelers.
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"Seeking individuals with 3+ years cg modeling experience in a production environment. Expert in NURBS patch modeling; proficient in Maya. Unix required. Mel, C programming skills are a plus. Architectural/environment modeling a plus. Requires a reel of work for review."
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*Modellers*

NURBS and polygon modelling using Maya. Should be fluent in at least two of the following packages:
Maya, Power Animator, Cyslice.
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One company (PDI) is looking for JUST NURBS patch modeling and the other Cinesite (Europe) Ltd is looking for NURBS and polygon modeling.
I think a lot/most of the people posting their models here work in the games industry or are not in the industry.

[gnarlycranium]

NURBS aren't often used for character modeling. They are best suited for mechanical modeling, where precise curves are necessary-- and in that application they are certainly far from obselete, putting subD to shame.

[roger]

Gnarly Cranium said
NURBS aren't often used for character modeling.
I will have to disagree with that statement. :wip:

I have been modeling characters in NURBS at work for almost a year, PDI/Dreamworks uses NURBS to model characters, Sony Imageworks uses NURBS to model characters, and ILM uses NURBS to model characters.
A lot of compines STILL use NURBS. :p

[gnarlycranium]

:shrug: About 75% of the characters I've seen have been SubD. So I say NURBS aren't often used. Doesn't mean they aren't.

[roger]

Gnarly Cranium said
About 75% of the characters I've seen have been SubD.
Where have you seen this? I know Pixar uses sub-d's but I also know they use NURBS too.

[ThirdEye]

There's an old thread in this forum about the same subject, just make a search.

[Laa-Yosh]

A lot of big companies are still using NURBS for characters, however Gollum and the ents in Two Towers were subdivision surfaces rendered in PRMan. The transition has already started and eventually those big studios will convert their pipelines just as well, at least IMHO.

So, if you want to get a job in a movie effects studio, you might profit from learning NURBS patch modeling. But just for the sake of it, it does not worth the time and headache...

[Bliz]

Thanks for all the replies so far folks,

I like [and can use] the Sub-D interperatation in Lightwave but Maya Sub-D's still feel very clunky and awkward to me. I've just started loonking into nurb modeling since I started the thread and they are really making sense to me, From my tiny bit of maya nurb experience I'd prefer to use Nurbs in maya rather than sub-D's in Maya. I don't mind using Sub-D's in Lightwave but not a lot of the big film companies seem to be using Maya ahead of Lightwave for feature film work.

What package were the ents and gollum modelled in?

[Laa-Yosh]

First of all, Weta hasn't used Maya's built-in subdiv implementation for their characters. As far as I know they've just exported simple polygon meshes - tagged as subdivs - to Renderman, and the tesselation was completed in there.

****
This is one of the reasons for the confusion about 'true' subdivs. Maya's implementation is different, because it also allows hierarchical editing and animation, but this goes beyond the original spec and enables new modeling methods, like the approach of Steve Stahlberg. All in all, from our point of view these models were created with polygons and not Maya's special subdivs. They were turned into a parametric surface only in the renderer.
****

How the modeling was done is a different story. Creature facial lead Bay Raitt has mentioned that Gollum's head was modeled from a cube in Mirai; but the body was a digitized clay maquette, and I have no clue which app they've used to optimize the point cloud data. Most likely something similar to Cyslice, but a custom app developed some years ago.

I have just as many info about the modeling of the ents ;)

[ThirdEye]

Originally posted by Laa-Yosh

I have just as many info about the modeling of the ents ;)

If you have some info about them too... Fire away, Tamas!! :)

[Laa-Yosh]

Heh, what I meant was that I don't know anything about how and where they were modeled, just as with Gollum's body :)

[ThirdEye]

Ooops, sorry, misunderstanding :blush:

[roger]

Bliz - I came from a LW background and now all I use is Maya. I model with Maya sub-d's the same as I modeled with LW 's sub-d's. I model with poly's. Every now and then I turn it into a sub-d to check it, then I undo it and make it back into a poly. Maya even has a function to turn a sub-d into a poly, but it causes something called "blind data" and you need to delete then.
In my opinion it's all about what your use to. After modeling in Maya for so long I had to model in LW for a commercial I did at DD and I did NOT like it! :surprised I wanted to model it in Maya.....but it was just because I had not used LW in about a year because I was using Maya to do all my modeling.
As far as NURBS, I would NOT have the job I have now if I did not know NURBS. It's what I do 90% of my WORK modeling. Yes, studios that use NURBS are slowly moving to sub-d's but I really thought they would have moved a year or two ago.
I myself prefer sub-d's to NURBS for most modeling needs.

[Teyon]

Well, I've just recently started modeling with polys (still haven't figured out how the whole SubD thing works)and my experience has been good for the most part (at least in LightWave). However, I first started modeling using Rhino and to this day, I can model a character faster in Rhino than I can in LightWave. I'm probably one of the few people not in the industry who uses Rhino for character modeling but it has almost never let me down. Sure, I miss out on some of the little things like being able to add veins or certain types of surface defects but I was able to model a character after 3 months of learning Rhino compared to the 4 months of Max and LightWave (combined usage time).

On a less personal note, many studios use NURBs as an interim to poly modeling. They scan their maquettes into Rhino, export and clean them up in whatever program they choose. Most recently, BlueSky did it for their feature film "IceAge". NURBs may go the way of the dino but it's going to go kicking and screaming.

[spiraloid]

The Ents were subdiv with the exception of Treebeard (which was mainly for legacy reasons). However, his facial control cage was a subdiv in Mirai, while the driven nurbs model was built from scans in PA and Maya by the very talented Kyla Bendall.

In my opinion. subdivs are the next incarnation of multi-patch nurbs modeling. subdivs provide a layer of abstraction to the nurbs practical workflow. a subdiv cage can be thought of as a multipatch nurbs surface without the rendundant boundary isoparms, and user level object maintentence (no stitching)

nurbs trims, etc etc are bloated and wander off in the wrong direction.

.. but then, I'm biased. I don't model ford tauruses very often.


-bay

[holosynthetic]

I've started to work in NURBS recently to see what everyone is complaining about and to just broaden my range of knowledge...and coming from knowing subD's first, I think nurbs are very cool, in a way they can be more exact and are much easier to maintain a smooth surface after cutting a hole into it..

I would not think nurbs are irrelavent..personally i think the 2 methods should be used hand in hand

[Tamtam]

i prefer modelling with nurbs
i started with polys but it was hard for me to understand what im doing with them i mean when you model with polys you can do as many mistakes as you want without thinking about the topologie cause they dont warn you as a beginner but nurbs forces you to model in a certain way otherwise you would end up with a bunch of creapy patches loosing the ilusion of beeing one single surface
but i think the best thing about nurbs is the ability to rebuild surfaces up and down or inserting isoparms folowing the tangency of the surface
but they are really hard to handle while rigging
i modelled a complete female character and she is really high res so its nearly impossible for me to bind the patches directly so im useing a wrap deformer which is a real life saver for me
anyway my opinion is modelling in nurbs and then converting to polys and finally rendering in subds

[spakman]

I will have to disagree with that statement. :wip:

I have been modeling characters in NURBS at work for almost a year, PDI/Dreamworks uses NURBS to model characters, Sony Imageworks uses NURBS to model characters, and ILM uses NURBS to model characters.
A lot of compines STILL use NURBS. :p
I thought you PDI cats used NUBS. Not really the same as NURBS, yes?

[roger]

I thought you PDI cats used NUBS. Not really the same as NURBS, yes?Wow, this thread is still going.....
spakman - I do not work at PDI, but I do know people that do work there and they use Maya NURBS for there models/characters. Now maybe a few (1 or 2) work in poly's and then convert them to NURBS but you really should know patch NURBS modeling if you ever want to work there.
Here was another job posting for PDI dated 11/05/04
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CHARACTER MODELERS - DreamWorks Animation
Qualifications:
Modeler with 5+ years of industry experience modeling in NURBS using Maya. Artistic and Programming (MEL, PERL, CSH) backgrounds a plus. Willingness to model Characters, Props and Environments. Good Communication and People skills, Team Player and a high level of Professionalism.
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There still using NURBS....:scream:

[StephanD]

Ever tried modeling a realistically shaped ear in Nurbs?

It's possible but not really an ideal medium for the thing.

http://www.3drender.com/models/models.htm

Now look at one I made with polygons(attachment),unless you're an expert with nurbs and the software you use them in,it's a pain to achieve this kind of parameters with surfaces.

[Obi]

Hello!

NURBS are great, but not for me. :( I prefer the subd method and I'm faster with poly, but I think _now_ the big studios prefer spline based modeling.
I hope it'll change, and subd surface will spread.
From the ILM info-pdf:
Demonstration knowledge od modeling using spline-based, high-end packages (Alias, Softimage) and to a lesser extent, poligonal modeling.

[phantomworkshop]

Wow, this thread is still going.....
spakman - I do not work at PDI, but I do know people that do work there and they use Maya NURBS for there models/characters. Now maybe a few (1 or 2) work in poly's and then convert them to NURBS but you really should know patch NURBS modeling if you ever want to work there.
Here was another job posting for PDI dated 11/05/04
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
CHARACTER MODELERS - DreamWorks Animation
Qualifications:
Modeler with 5+ years of industry experience modeling in NURBS using Maya. Artistic and Programming (MEL, PERL, CSH) backgrounds a plus. Willingness to model Characters, Props and Environments. Good Communication and People skills, Team Player and a high level of Professionalism.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
There still using NURBS....:scream:

Hmmm, what's the difference between NURBS modeling and NURBS patch modeling? Also, I've watched plenty of training from SimplyMaya.com, and their main guy , Kurt.. he roughs out the shapes with nurbs primitives, then converts to polys for adding geometry, then sub-d's for final tweaking.. and he pulls out some really clean, nice models. I've heard from everyone it's all about 'your preference and employers don't care what method you use as long as it's clean and looks good' then, I also watched a Gnomon Training video the other day, from Alex Alvarez (Head Surfacing - Organic Modeling) .. and he used a NURBS cylinder to rough out the head, then NURBS curves to do the eyes, nose, mouth.. etc. So... I guess the question is, stick with polys? or work with nurbs? or does it even matter?

Oh, and as far as sub-d modeling in Maya.. are you talking about working with a subd primitive (cube, sphere, cylinder) and starting that way.. or working with a poly primitive then converting it to a subd?

[Stahlberg]

Not sure if you're gonna get an answer from the people that posted earlier, you did notice the last post is over a year old right? :)

what's the difference between NURBS modeling and NURBS patch modeling?
Patches was a 'refinement' (I'd call it more of a stopgap measure or cludge) to make NURBS a bit more like polys, able to have branching geometry... essentially you cut up your NURBS surface in square patches that you then have to 'glue' together, the software is supposed to make the seam invisible... supposed to that is. It has many limitations and a very complex workflow. Not to mention you need separate texture maps for each patch.

When it comes to complex character creation imo polygons always win hands down. NURBS are better at simple smooth hard surfaces (such as aerodynamics, or simple objects such as eyeballs). The usage of NURBS for characters has defenitely been on the decline for years.

Oh, and as far as sub-d modeling in Maya.. are you talking about working with a subd primitive (cube, sphere, cylinder) and starting that way.. or working with a poly primitive then converting it to a subd?
Why not try both for a while and see which way you prefer?
Personally I don't like SubD's in Maya, they're slower, buggier, have less tools, and no real advantage over polys except maybe for extreme zooming-into-closeup animations. But they are useful for visualizing the surface during polygon modeling.

[phantomworkshop]

Not sure if you're gonna get an answer from the people that posted earlier, you did notice the last post is over a year old right? :)


Patches was a 'refinement' (I'd call it more of a stopgap measure or cludge) to make NURBS a bit more like polys, able to have branching geometry... essentially you cut up your NURBS surface in square patches that you then have to 'glue' together, the software is supposed to make the seam invisible... supposed to that is. It has many limitations and a very complex workflow. Not to mention you need separate texture maps for each patch.

When it comes to complex character creation imo polygons always win hands down. NURBS are better at simple smooth hard surfaces (such as aerodynamics, or simple objects such as eyeballs). The usage of NURBS for characters has defenitely been on the decline for years.


Why not try both for a while and see which way you prefer?
Personally I don't like SubD's in Maya, they're slower, buggier, have less tools, and no real advantage over polys except maybe for extreme zooming-into-closeup animations. But they are useful for visualizing the surface during polygon modeling.

Appreciate the reply, I recently worked a little in Digital Tutor's Female Android Modeling Kit, and Kyle used SubD cylinders for arms, legs, etc.. and he used them just like polys, in fact.. he went into the Marking Menu, and selected Polygon from the menu, then he was able to extrude, split poly, etc.. within Sub-D's, same thing for the Quadraped Monster Kit, he used Sub-D cubes for the legs, and modeled just like poly's as well, and yeah.. I agree, Maya's subd's are nothing compared to XSI, LW, Modo, etc.. but, Maya seems to still be industry favorite and it's what I'm used to. Not sure if it's worth it to learn a new package entirely just for easier/faster/more efficient Sub-D modeling.

[Stahlberg]

Well, why do you think you have to stick to SubD modeling? :) Because of those tutorial kits you mentioned? Why not try both polygons and SubD's for a while, see what you yourself think.

As I said, imo there's no real advantage to SubD's you can't have in polygons too, except perhaps smoothness in closeup... but it's also quite simple to temporarily raise the res of the Smooth Proxy (1 click).
Another disadvantage of SubD's:
If the surface has a single 5-sided polygon the resulting SubD won't render in Maya's MR. But a Smooth Proxy will, because it subdivides any polygon into quads. (Using 3-sides and 5-sides occasionally is a big part of my modeling method.)

As a polygon modeler Maya 7 is quite good. If you want a better modeler, check out Wings (free), Modo, Silo or Zbrush. Many model in those apps and import into Maya.

[hernanlp83]

NURBS I had learned with Rhinoceros 3.0. They have much official´s manuals and tutorials. Rhinoceros is the best and the most easy form to learn NURBS. I job with poligonal mesh but in my time free I practice with NURBS.

Bye and good luck

http://www.rhino3d.com/ (HomePáge)
http://www.rhino3d.tv/ (Tutorials and VideoTutorials)
http://www.rhino3d.com/download.htm (Rhino Training Manuals)

[Shonner]

I use Amapi Pro 7.51 for mechanical modeling. NURBS is so much faster to model with compared to polygon SubD. It's mostly just boolean cutting and chamfering. No edge-weighting or smoothing involved.

[Tad]

wow,
nurbs patches,
I remember those.

here's a face I modeled in maya, way back in the day.
I it was back in 2000!!!
http://home.comcast.net/%7Etadman3d/myart/face.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/%7Etadman3d/myart/facewire.jpg

[JulianS]

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=298511


NurbsPatches- > Polys-> SubD

Film - NURBS
Games - Polys

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