CGTalk - Getting new workstation, DUAL XEON or DUAL G4?

X3M

04-24-2003, 04:04 PM

If your primary work is 3D or video compositing go for Xeon and if it is video editing than check the Mac. Hardware wise Xeon is better software wise Mac might be better for video editing. Another think is, if you are very technical you will be very happy with Xeon if not you might be better with Mac. I just gut my Xeon build couple of weeks ago and I love it.

I am very technical, actually my background is technical and I hate legecy. It works better in short run but in long run it is a nightmare.

abductedMind

04-24-2003, 04:51 PM

The Radeon 9700 is not so good for the money - I am returning mine because I noticed little change from my GF2 while running Maya. People seem to think that the GF4 Ti4200/4600 are faster for 3ds and Maya (Better Open GL support in the drivers, I think). They are cheeper too. (I don't know if they are availible for Mac - I would guess so). "Get a Quadro or a GF4 Ti" is the what I have read on this board more than a few times.

I say this because you said that your system is *not* a gaming system. The Radeon 9700 is a *gaming* card and beats other cards in game based tests.

If I am wrong on this one - please show me the proof! I want the truth as much as the next guy ;)

ctaborda

04-24-2003, 06:38 PM

well, my problem here is not the video card, is the system itself..
also the platform..

stephen2002

04-24-2003, 07:15 PM

For greatest flexibility of the software that is avalable to you, go for the PC. The raw power tends to be avalable on the PC.

It really comes down to what you are comfortable with working with on a day to day basis. Are you going to be replacing a Mac or a PC?

ctaborda

04-24-2003, 09:47 PM

replacing a pc

elvis

04-25-2003, 01:30 AM

i can't answer for you guys in the US, but here in australia macs are just way too expensive. i can get an equivalently powered new PC (in real-world performance terms, not GHz terms) for roughly 50-75% the cost of a new mac.

don't get me wrong: i'm not a platform advocate for either. at work i use macs and pcs (with windows and linux) fairly evenly day to day. but if it was coming out of my wallet, it'd be a PC.

then again, i custom build my PCs. if you're buying yours boxed it coud be a different story.

parallax

04-25-2003, 09:58 AM

I'd say i can get 2 and a half PC's (more powerfull) for the price of one Mac in holland.

kinda sad.

raz-0

04-25-2003, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by ctaborda
replacing a pc

Assuming your aren't a warez kiddie, you answered your own question. That is unless it's somehow become simple (even possible) to transfer a license to a new platform. Your software list is way more than the machine would be.

MattClary

04-25-2003, 06:47 PM

Important question: What software do you plan to run on it? Not all apps are ported to Mac. If you allready use these apps, are you planing to buy new copies or steal them? ;)

Valkyrien

04-25-2003, 06:50 PM

the dual xeon machine is twice as fast. you do the math;)

Thalaxis

04-25-2003, 08:07 PM

Originally posted by ctaborda

WHAT WOULD YOU GET AND WHY?

This really should be a no-brainer by now, if your focus is on 3d, since even one of those 2.6 GHz Xeons is nearly 2x as fast as that mac... and the mac is even slower when running in single-threaded situations, which is most of them.

MattClary

04-25-2003, 08:54 PM

Excuse my ignorance, but other than LightWave, do any of the other major 3D apps run on Mac?

abductedMind

04-25-2003, 09:06 PM

Maya is on all platforms worth mentioning - including Mac.

Thalaxis

04-25-2003, 09:09 PM

Originally posted by MattClary
Excuse my ignorance, but other than LightWave, do any of the other major 3D apps run on Mac?

I would also consider Cinema4D to be a major application, even though it's still a bit short on history, being a relative newcomer and all.

beaker

04-25-2003, 09:12 PM

Originally posted by MattClary
Excuse my ignorance, but other than LightWave, do any of the other major 3D apps run on Mac?
Maya, Cinema4d, Electric Image, FormZ, Wings3d, Animation Master, Shade

abductedMind

04-25-2003, 09:28 PM

Actually, I am fairly certain that a 1.5 ghz G4 is faster than a 2.0 ghz P4/XEON for example. I don't know exactly how it all adds up but I do know that you can not look straight at the ghz to compare speeds.

Thalaxis

04-25-2003, 09:48 PM

Originally posted by abductedMind
Actually, I am fairly certain that a 1.5 ghz G4 is faster than a 2.0 ghz P4/XEON for example. I don't know exactly how it all adds up but I do know that you can not look straight at the ghz to compare speeds.

And a 2.6 GHz Xeon isn't just a 2 GHz Xeon with a higher clock speed. Intel's been cranking out revisions on the P4 family pretty quickly, and they've been revamping the platforms to go with them (they have to or they'll lose the chipset market entirely, they've already lost close to 1/2 of it to the likes of Via and SiS and ALi).

dg3d

04-26-2003, 04:25 AM

Originally posted by beaker
This has been asked numerous times before, go search the archives. Many times it is just going to erupt into a mac vs pc war. Just use whatever your more conforatable with.

I second that.

zcmaya3d

05-04-2003, 10:50 AM

hmm . in my opinion , at least Mac in China is much more expensive than a pc , and in many companies they use pc for cg . Mac is just for the composting , some of my friends said Mac is not faster than a Pc .
with the same price, Pc is much more better than Mac, but if you are a Macer , so it is diffenert i think .

ages

05-05-2003, 10:52 AM

My chinese friend says if it isnt cloned they dont buy it, and so be it if it doesnt last that long, as long as its cheap they buy.

Jimzip

05-05-2003, 11:44 AM

Also worth considering, (if you have until near the end of the year..) are the new Dual Processor Macs running on a 64-bit system..:drool:
They'll be released at the end of the year near the release of Lightwave 8:
http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?threadid=4140
they should have enough power to round up cattle herds..

Regarding other posts, yes, all major 3D apps except Max run on Mac... (Strange hey?) Maya was Mac's flagship 3D software, they kicked up quite a storm about it.. http://www.apple.com/hotnews/articles/2002/03/orphanage/

Anyway, that's if you have enough time and money.

Regarding cards: From what research has told me, all current graphics cards work for Mac. The Mac OS is built on a graphics system that outperforms many other OS's, and relies heavily on OpenGL. See for yourself:
http://www.apple.com/macosx/technologies/

Anyway, please don't turn this into a mini war again guys. Both PC's and Macs have their advantages. Saying :'My friend says Macs is bad..' etc. doesn't help anyone.

Jimzip:D

sumatra

05-05-2003, 01:07 PM

jimzip your post is a flamebait, :applause:

ages

05-05-2003, 02:34 PM

Pc's are baaaaaddd very baaaad...

(couldnt help myself)

abductedMind

05-05-2003, 03:09 PM

A 64 bit systems already exists for windows ... AMD Opteron.

PC's are very BAD? Then that makes Macs what? Almost OK? If you eat an apple then you are brought pleasurable flavor and it digests easily. If you eat a window you taste nothing and it hurts, usually causing death. A window is transparent and solid the way any OS should be. An apple gets soft and rotten, vulnerable to worms. Blah blah blah...

Forgive me!

Thalaxis

05-05-2003, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by Jimzip

Regarding other posts, yes, all major 3D apps except Max run on Mac... (Strange hey?) Maya was Mac's flagship 3D software, they kicked up quite a storm about it.. [url]

Don't forget about XSI...

alphatron

05-05-2003, 09:38 PM

Regarding other posts, yes, all major 3D apps except Max run on Mac... (Strange hey?) Maya was Mac's flagship 3D software, they kicked up quite a storm about it..

Jimzip,

You wouldn't consider Softimage XSI and 3D to be major 3D apps???

mikeesparza

05-05-2003, 10:24 PM

PC RULES!!!!!!!!!!! FOR MAYA WITH A DUAL XEON AND A QUADRO FX 2000........... U WILL ROCK, ASK ME CUZ I HAVE A BRAND NEW ONE AND ITS GREAT FOR MAYA!!!!!!!!!!!!

stephen2002

05-06-2003, 12:59 AM

Ok people, the point has gotten across. Some like Macs, some like PCs, both sides will wave around their respective benchmark charts showing their system is better.

Just use what you are used to using. Overall one isn't going to be leaps and bounds over the other.

Jimzip

05-06-2003, 02:25 AM

Heh heh, Oh I couldn't help laughing when I was re-reading all this this morning!
I really didn't mean to start a war, I was trying to give our thread-starter something to parhaps think about.
If I hadn't bought a new computer last year, I'd be waiting for the new computers...

Anyhoo, I didn't realise XSI didn't work on Mac, I haven't really heard much about it for a while being in my Lightwave World..

Jimzip:D

(Oh, and about apple being rotten.. Well let's just say that while we use pesticides to keep away bugs, Windows have to be cleaned regularly. And while apples grow naturally, windows are recycled, melted and flattened sand made in different variations to allow someone to see through them.)
Now that's metaphoric!

ages

05-06-2003, 04:20 AM

"[Photoshop : PPC 970 mono 1.4 is 87% faster than a Dual 1.42 GHz
Final Cut Pro : PPC 970 mono 1.4 is 112% faster than a Dual 1.42 GHz
Alias|Wavefront Maya Render : PPC 970 mono 1.4 is 254% faster than a Dual 1.42 GHz]"

The complete content:

french mac site (http://www.macbidouille.com/news-2003-05-05.php#5439)

(not intended for war fodder, just some input)

alphatron

05-06-2003, 04:32 AM

Hmm.. that probably puts the Mac somewhere near the speed of a Celeron now?

:D

Jimzip

05-06-2003, 04:33 AM

I don't get it.:shrug:

Jimzip:D

abductedMind

05-06-2003, 06:09 AM

PPC = Power Personal Computer. I think that the PPC 970 is the 64 bit mac processor (G5 maybe). The speeds are comparing a dual G4 to the 64 bit processor. I Think. (Apples to Apples - heehee)

Funny how IBM is developing Mac's lastest processor!

beaker

05-06-2003, 06:20 AM

[i]Funny how IBM is developing Mac's lastest processor! [/B]
Not really since they are one of the cocreators of the Powerpc from the beginning. All the G3's that apple still uses are made by IBM. Also all of IBM's servers: RS6000 and AS400 midrange, mainframes, and blades that they make(non intel boxes) all run on PowerPC processors(Power3, Power4, 603, G3). They all run either Linux or AIX.

Marc Andreoli

05-06-2003, 06:38 AM

Originally posted by Jimzip
Regarding cards: From what research has told me, all current graphics cards work for Mac. The Mac OS is built on a graphics system that outperforms many other OS's, and relies heavily on OpenGL. See for yourself:
http://www.apple.com/macosx/technologies/

ehem...no, not all graphic cards work on the mac. There is no Quadro drivers for example (yet).

Personally, I want to switch from W2K back to OSX as soon as possible (having to use that registry SUCKS). It looks like there will finally be good 3D workstations coming from Apple (and/or IBM, according to some rumors) in a couple of months, I guess we will know more after WWDC in June.

Christmas should be like...ehm...christmas. ;)
In the meantime, I'd recommend buying a (cheap) PC if you need a system NOW.

Jimzip

05-06-2003, 06:39 AM

Also, IBM makes the Macintosh Hard Drives.
And yeah, they've been a part of the Mac world for a while now..

abductedMind

05-06-2003, 06:39 AM

IBM making Mac processors...Maybe its not as funny as it was in 1989 but I still think it is. :p

Thalaxis

05-06-2003, 02:14 PM

Originally posted by beaker
Not really since they are one of the cocreators of the Powerpc from the beginning. All the G3's that apple still uses are made by IBM. Also all of IBM's servers: RS6000 and AS400 midrange, mainframes, and blades that they make(non intel boxes) all run on PowerPC processors(Power3, Power4, 603, G3). They all run either Linux or AIX.

Just for clarity, keep in mind that POWER and PowerPC are not the same -- they are not necessarily binary compatible with each other.

(POWER4 and PPC970 are, I think -- though there are differences which would require recompilation to use, such as altivec which Power4 does not have.)

Thalaxis

05-06-2003, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by Jimzip
Also, IBM makes the Macintosh Hard Drives.

Not any longer, now that they've sold off their hard drive assets (to Fujitsu, if I remember correctly).

ages

05-06-2003, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by alphatron
Hmm.. that probably puts the Mac somewhere near the speed of a Celeron now?

:D

lets give it time, IBM is no slouch, neither is apples ego...

Leo_79

05-07-2003, 03:23 AM

Hi man, if i were you i choise the dual xeon. Take a look in this site: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,939886,00.asp . Maybe this is just a rumor, but it's on pcmagazine.

Marc Andreoli

05-07-2003, 09:13 PM

Originally posted by Leo_79
Hi man, if i were you i choise the dual xeon. Take a look in this site: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,939886,00.asp . Maybe this is just a rumor, but it's on pcmagazine.

John Dvorak and Apple is like lime juice and milk: sure, you can mix them, but it ain't pretty...:hmm:

In other words: don't believe this guy (Dvorak, that is) when it comes to anything Mac :shame:

abductedMind

05-07-2003, 10:06 PM

Actually the Mac/Intel rumor has some merit. Though it probably won't happen. Just read this very thread! Someone thought that the dual xeons were twice as fast as the dual g4s just because of the mhz. It s a real marketing issue for AMD and Apple alike.

-------
"How many cylinders does that car have? I need at least eight to feel good."

elvis

05-07-2003, 11:00 PM

dvorak hasn't yet made a correct prediction in his 20 years of computer journalism. the man is nothing but a shit stirrer and deserves to be ignored.

Thalaxis

05-08-2003, 12:12 AM

Originally posted by elvis
dvorak hasn't yet made a correct prediction in his 20 years of computer journalism. the man is nothing but a shit stirrer and deserves to be ignored.

That sounds about right.

abductedMind

05-08-2003, 03:04 AM

I am not giving this guy any credit. The argument existed before he addressed it. I have to say, having read that one editorial of his, I would be inclinded to believe elvis.

Thalaxis

05-08-2003, 04:56 AM

Originally posted by abductedMind
I am not giving this guy any credit. The argument existed before he addressed it. I have to say, having read that one editorial of his, I would be inclinded to believe elvis.

History indicates that that is the correct thing to do.

dvornik

05-08-2003, 05:10 AM

Well, since this thread seems to attract a lot of dedicated people on both sides I'll ask an off-topic question:

How do you send a maya job from a mac to a PC renderfarm? I know how to do it the other way around theoretically (Muster is supposed to be able to handle that). But let's say you model on a mac and your renderfarm is all PCs.

beaker

05-08-2003, 09:03 AM

Originally posted by dvornik
Well, since this thread seems to attract a lot of dedicated people on both sides I'll ask an off-topic question:

How do you send a maya job from a mac to a PC renderfarm? I know how to do it the other way around theoretically (Muster is supposed to be able to handle that). But let's say you model on a mac and your renderfarm is all PCs.
Use render management software that works on a mac.

dvornik

05-14-2003, 06:05 AM

Like what? That's exactly what I'm looking for.

beaker

05-17-2003, 04:21 AM

Rush: http://seriss.com/rush/
LSF: http://www.platform.com/services/support/services/platforms5.0.asp (This is really more of a big company solution)
Shake3's rendermanager can submit jobs for anything that supports the command line.

PlanetMongo

05-17-2003, 07:12 AM

I like that question (using mac as modeller and PC's as renderfarm), as it's the exact situation I think I'll be in soon.

Short of it: Picking up a portable mac (either an iBook or TiBook, primarily for doing schoolwork (reports (excel, word (office X anyone?)), java games development (limited market in the Mac == more lock in potential.. muhahahaha!.. see lwjgl), and to support "games development", using Lightwave (and/or Maya) to produce pre-rendered sprites for the style of game I'm working on). Anyway, I don't need a speed demon, just something I can work on when taking a break or when inspiration strikes, the renders and what not will actually be farmed out to my PC (linux.. both lightwave and Maya have linux renderers.. lightwave's is free, last I heard). Anyway, it'll be a similar situation, but right now the topography I'm planning is something like:
T/iBook and Desktop Mac (coming soon, 2004.. come on PPC970!)
connects to
Dual PIII Linux box (server for farm, also will act as webserver/router for network)
upon insertion of scenes and whatnot into NFS mounted directory, uses Wake-On-Lan to wake up Linux-based-rendernodes (don't need them running when idle.. too much juice) and then distribute accordingly.

Fortunately for me, I write shellscripts to do this kind of automation all day long at my day job, so I don't think it will be much of a big deal to control this kind of thing from a simple script, but I've not dealt with 3D rendering software, so I could be HIGHLY mistaken.

Nor have I actually built any of the Rendernodes.. :P But they look to be dual Athlon-based (Opteron or Athlon64??).

abductedMind

05-17-2003, 05:00 PM

dual opteron :drool: :drool:
PPC970 :drool: :drool:

dvornik

05-18-2003, 12:25 AM

Originally posted by beaker
Shake3's rendermanager can submit jobs for anything that supports the command line.

Thanks. That could be very useful cause the place I worked for until last week is getting shake and they already got OS X licenses for Maya on those machines. Do you know any specific information on this? I'll obviously look on apple's site. Would they need to buy shake for linux in order for this to work?