WIP:110,000 poly's and counting

[dmthurman]

This is what it started out as. 1620 poly's to be exact.

[JIII]

nice this baby is gonna ROCK with some textures on it.

can not wait to see it finished.

[Demonslayer]

Looks really cool. :)

Quick question though, how do you find out the polygon number?

[JIII]

object manager-object menu-scene information.

[Demonslayer]

Ok, I found it, but it says 0 and then has a number in brackets after it. What is the bracket number supposed to be?

Sorry for taking over your thread....:(

[Phasmatis]

Could I pick you brains for a minute?

I do a lot of game modelling and sooner or later I will need to use normal mapping for some models, so... How do you make a normal map from a high poly model in cinema?

Your help will be greatly appreciated. :)


Demonslayer:
The reason you have 0 in the polycount dialog is because you're probably using primitives or extrude, something like that. Once you make them editible you will see the polycount. The number in the parenthesis is the polycount before you make it editible and if you are using hypernurbs the first number will be cage polys and the bracketed number will be the sub divided polycount. :)

[Per-Anders]

normal map? are we talking a bumpmap or you want the polys normals represented in rgb=xyz facing value on a 2d imagemap?

if the second then i think using baker to bake three different falloff's. of pure red to black, pure blue to black and pure green to black, each falloff set to a different axis... not sure what you could use that for though. so i'm guessing i'm completely wrong in that.

[Phasmatis]

If I understand it correctly, you map a normal map, possibly by doing what you suggested with falloff, then you use it as a bump map in the game to make it look as if it's a high poly model. I could be completely off track though.

I found a tutorial on normal mapping quite a while ago and I put to one side until I actually wanted to make normal mapped models, I think I'll try and find it again.

[Per-Anders]

yes, i'd be interested to know.

[flingster]

very nice model....kinda reminds me of ghostbusters...those things in the fridge! heh heh...i think its the stance that does it...
very cool though...
thanks for posting the early wire...useful to see.:thumbsup:

[Phasmatis]

Here's that tut. I didn't realise it was actually for Cinema, I probably got the link from here then. :rolleyes:

Good, I'll definitely have to read it now.

Normal Mapping (http://members.shaw.ca/jimht03/normal.html)

[Bucko]

The methods for generating normalmaps described in this thread work well when generating normalmaps that should be applied to flat surfaces such as walls.
When normalmaps are to be used on objects such as characters, weapons etc its a bit more tricky. You use a low poly UV mapped model that will be used in the game and a high rez model that has all the detail of the mode. Then you "render" the normalmap for the lowpoly model by shooting a ray for every pixel of the uvmap along the interpolated normal of the lowpoly model and see where and at what angle the ray hit a poly in the high rez model. You store the difference between the lowpoly interpolated normal and the highpoly interpolated normal.

ATI has a free application that will generate a normalmap given two models in .obj format. It is not very good and requires that the high rez model has uv-coords that match the low polys.

There's a very good albeit expensive plug from Crytek that does a much better job and doesn't require uv-coords for the highrez. Plugs are available for Lightwave and Maya and the price was last time I checked $7000!

I've written an app that is (ahem!) at least as good as the Crytek one but it's for our own game engine and not available.

Those interested in writing one of their own should check out the free ATI version as it comes with C++ source. Check out the Crytek demo to see what to strive for.

Modelling high rez meshes for normalmapping requires lots of memory, our modellers typically use 200 000 to 500 000 polys on each model. I've seen a screwdriver model with 250 000 polys!

[squidinc]

is this the technique thats being used on new doom shoot em up?

[dAfTiE]

On a slightly related note,
some people over at Spiraloid have messed around with the ATI app,
so they get it to output displacement maps as well.
There's also some people working on a way to model displacement maps,
using the AIR baker utility and renderman shaders.
One of those guys are OwenR from the Wings3D forums.
Link here:http://www.seanomlor.com/owenr/
Pretty good read.and the linked spiraloid thread is really nice as well.
Now I just hope he can manage to port the thing to Aqsis,
so I can play around without having to pay for AIR :)

[dmthurman]

First, it's cool that other people in this forum are interested in this. I'm such a wannabe, that for me to follow along with the technical on this topic is a bit difficult, so thanks bucko for explaining a bit why that plugin won't work.

Daftie that is exactly what i'm trying to learn how to do...:D

This is the thread I was refering to over in spiraloid:

http://cube.phlatt.net/forums/spiraloid/viewtopic.php?TopicID=581

the other thread that started the disscussion on this topic is here, of particular interest is from the middle of the 2nd page through the 3rd page.. The best part of that forum are the relevant links, which for me has helped.

http://cube.phlatt.net/forums/spiraloid/viewtopic.php?TopicID=9&page=0

[dmthurman]

One thing I forgot to mention, I originally got Cinema for it's rendering capability. I had virtually no interest in animation until I started to follow the Spiraloid thread. If the work flow can be put together correctly then some very realistic animations are possible on a pc that previously were unthinkable. That said, I'm using Zbrush to create the original low poly model, and as the sculpting tool for the high resolution mesh. I need to rework the low poly mesh so that it more approximates the hi res version and I need to rework some of the polys around the joints before I animate, but it's a nice work flow. Hell if it's good enough for people that Work on LOTR, it's good enough for me...LOL..Here is the original zsphere model...

[flingster]

that sphere model looks wierd...seen the zbrush sphere stuff posted before....when you model it with spheres hows it work...do you have one viewport with the sphere...and one with a nurbs looking view....how's it work...and then how does it determine that its high poly or low poly version...i'm confused. do you just grow or shrink the sphere...huh....what about the backface of the model...do you use the usual viewports method of other 3d software or just one view like say photoshop...huh...confused.... what do you export to cinema as version type?
just curious hope you don't mind...:shrug:

thanks

[Bucko]

>> is this the technique thats being used on new doom shoot em up?

Yup

[dmthurman]

Those are some good questions flingster that I hadn't thought of. Zbrush if very different from most modeling programs. The Zsphere capabilities function as an outlining tool. the original creature took me, oh 20 minutes to come up with the low poly cage. If I was really good, maybe 5 minutes. As you work in Zsphere mode, you simply keep hitting the A key and it flips back and forth between Poly mode and Zsphere mode, it's very quick and instant feed back. As for symmetry, you can set it up so what ever is created on one side is automatically created on the other. The way it handles symmetry is actually much better than in Cinema, I'm not sure how to explain that better. Also,If you notice, there are those weird semi transparent balls on sticks. those control width, and size, of the poly mesh. The resolution I showed in the low res image earlier is set at 2 but it can be bumped up. once you have achieved what you like, you have different options of skinning, one is adaptive skinning, that I showed earlier, the other is unified skinning, which is automatically high resolution. There are of course a zillion ways to adjust the meshes in either mode. After skinning, I prefer working from a lower resolution model, and selectively increase the poly count as I go along. It seems to give a bit more control. I know, it all looks very weird in relation to how one model's in Cinema or other programs but once you get the idea behind the program, it really is more intuitive in some ways for creating organic forms. Now as far as modeling a car, or other hard surface models, forget it, Zbrush isn't practical for that, Cinema, or a program like Rhino are much better.

[AdamT]

I like the model, dm! And thanks for the Zbrush explanation. I'd been wondering about that myself. I think I'll have to try out the demo.

[flingster]

dmthurman: thanks for that..sounds pretty funky really...and good fun/creative way to model...which is appealing....seen some very good stuff done in it...but never really got the control bit of the spheres but youve explained that for me really clearly..:thumbsup:

once you completed the model...what do you do..fix it...bake it etc...and then export to cinema as what file format? and what happens to textures...eg bump and colour etc?

this method of displacement/normal mapping or whatever its called...has gotta be a game developers nivana...i bet they can't wait for it....i thought doom 3 was only partial implementation...but can't remember why...sorry.

[wuensch]

z spheres are skinned either adaptive (very good for Hypernurb in c4d) or absolute (hiPoly).
You can preview the skin by pressing a-key at any time.
One word about zbrush: it is definitely a unique and innovative app, but the interface is-- well challenging, at least--
I like it, I use it for finetuning, but to be honest:
its like painter and photoshop.
Every Illustrator I know has both, but with one exceptio they all earn their money in photoshop and doodle in painter.
I am still a zBrush-fan.
Until i accidentally transform my model into Pixols again and never get it back ,_9
Olli

[Per-Anders]

hold on... are we saying that if you took the falloff maps for a high and low res image and overalyed them in photoshop using difference that would be worth a $7000 plugin? god damn... i'm going ot start learning c++ right now!

[dmthurman]

You know Per and Adam, I really wish you would get in on the thread over at Spiraloid, I'd love someone to figure out how this is all suppose to work in Cinema...You are a couple of the Cinema gawds ya know!!!!...is that enough sucking up, Is the check in the mail??...And yes, it's very fun, a great way to rough out models in a more creative way. I think the recent upgrades in being able to adjust the Zspheres has been a great improvement.

Flinster, you export in .obj format, it works great.

[dmthurman]

One last thing this link is one that Bay refered to in trying to get these models aninmated in a realistic fashion. Geez if I can do an animation on my PC that looks this good that would be too nice...

http://www.sitexgraphics.com/smallwalk.avi

[AdamT]

No no. Bay is a god. Sadie is a demi-god. And I'm just a shlub. :)

[JIII]

that makes me carpet fuzz

how about you be semi god so i can be schlub.

[Mentat7]

Hey! I thought that looked like a ZBrush mesh! Hehehe :) Keep it up bud. I am eager to see how this turns out!!!:wip:

[Phasmatis]

I've lost track of something here, so is everyone after a plugin that makes normal maps?

I've just woken up and I will probably reread this thread when I'm more awake.

[dmthurman]

Well Adam if you are a schlub, then I better quit because there is no hope for me..

I didn't actually make this a Zbrush promotion, because I think there are a couple of other programs out there that work well with sculpting hi res meshes, it's just the program I happen to use. The main point of the Spiraloid thread is that they are attempting to create a work flow without spending $7,000 for a program. Since i'm not Technical I was hoping that some of you guys could help me and others along, in working in Cinema. I really don't want to get Air and Bake air, and so on. I'm still slepping along with my model, so i'm not even that far yet..LOL....Seems to me that this should be able to be accomplished easily in Cinema. I could be wrong, but I've always been so amazed at Cinema's rendering engine, it should be doable...

Here's another thread in the CG WIP, on high res Mesh Modeling by Ambient whisper..

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56081&highlight=zbrush

I particularly like what he has to say about three phases of modeling, and how most modelers skip phase II.
DavidT

[flingster]

i'm getting confused now....
are we saying then that cinema cannot handle this type of displacement? (how many colours can cinema handle?)

the tut for cinema posted earlier in the thread can help you get the different colours...from high poly...to low poly image...but basically this would then be used in software that could handle this type of displacement(normal mapping)....i other words where the normal is displaced to...

in summary:
you can produce you high and low image to be used for displacement...but cinema cannot actually handle this displacement method....not to sure if all the others can handle it either though....am i correct?

ps. bays walkcycle...absolutely rocks...the muscle and fat under the stomach moves very cool...

[Per-Anders]

it sounds do-able, but i'd have to be able to spend some time to read all the info and the thread, and i'm kinda busy at the moment... but i think there's no reason why it shouldnt be possible, the main problem comes with the uv mapping, which needs to take up the same space on both models for the displacement to work.

cinema can handle pretty much any form of displacement apart from micropoly displacement... and even that you can sort of fake using ditools tessa and dishaper.

but i think i'll certainly look into this sometime in the future.

[dAfTiE]

For this workflow I really think you'll need a micropolygon renderer,
ie a renderman one,vmantra or mray or something like that.

That's about the extent of my knowledge tho,
as I'm a total n00b when it comes to renderman.:rolleyes:
But it sure is fun to play around with... :applause:

[dmthurman]

Infact I think you are totally right about that point now that it's mentioned Daftie....
Per, well you do understand Cinema Shaders about as well as anyone else, it's too bad you finally are starting to work, it was so nice when you were sclepping around just doing cinema, LOL......

David T.

[dmthurman]

I won't bore anyone with this too much more, for the one or two that might like to see this thing finished, here's the head shot, with a test texture. it's now starting to look a bit like putty, i'll have to work on that.
David..

[flingster]

like that back where you can see his spine.
don't like the shield part at back of head...to dino for me.
no chance of me getting bored...keep posting...lovin it.

i didn't think cinema could do this type of displacement...effectively moving xyz normals depending on colour? at moment is only height...but i might be wrong.

[dmthurman]

i KNOW, no WIP...:0,,,, 1 OR 2 more posts and i promise no more..LOl.....Still working on the texture, and of course I haven't even started on the head.....This one has had a lot of Rework done in Cinema, so it's more relevant now...
D.T..

[dmthurman]

Forgot, I also hated that little crown thingie on it's head before as well flinster....

[squidinc]

its looking like an interesting monster but.. that last pic makes it look a bit like its made of cardboard.. but as you're still working on it I'll shutup now :)

[AdamT]

Is he wearing a jumpsuit? :)

[dmthurman]

Ha, I like the jump suit comparison...That's what I get for posting stuff that's not finished...:D.....The texture is acting wacky on me that's why it has all those funky lines in it, Anyway, I'll keep plugging away....
David T...
P.S...Great, now All i'm going to think about is jump suits when I try to finish this model. For my next version, Monster in Thong...

[JIII]

whoa man its not a jump suit its like oily wet cardboard.

great model but there is just somthing not right about the material.

[dmthurman]

Jumpsuitasarus...........Ok have the texturing working right, now it should be done in a day or so.....here's a quick test shot...

P.S. you know, I probably couldn't get that greasy cardboard effect if I tried....:D

[dmthurman]

Jumpsuitasarus...........Ok have the texturing working right, now it should be done in a day or so.....here's a quick test shot...

P.S. you know, I probably couldn't get that greasy cardboard effect if I tried....:D

[Sceme]

damn, i wanna see more, and hehe..cardboards rocks :buttrock:
:p

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