No Displacement. Why???

[imashination]

R9 had spd? AFAIK nothing has ever been removed when upgrading

[Dtox]

Yeah I'm not a big fan of the modules game either.

I don't have MoGraph, and from what I hear it makes alot of things much easier.
I used to use 3dsmax, and there was a displacement and noise modifier that allowed you to use greyscale images to directly modify the geometry in addition to the shader displacement function.
This was in 1999-2000, and it was a feature of the base application.

When I started with cinema I was kind of annoyed that it doesn't have a feature like that without purchasing the mograph module.

But in Maxon's defense, it does require quite a bit of resources to code the app so they want to get paid for it.

Before someone comes in and gets cranky about us complainin, I just want to say that I'm not saying that cinema sucks or that Maxon's a money grubbing corporate thug.
Just that I would've thought some of these things would naturally be a part of the base app due to experience with other apps.
If I would've known that it doesn't have these features when I purchased, I would've gotten mograph then.
Right now I just can't justify the cost of another module because I plan to buy Vray first.
Then Zbrush3 is on the horizon also.

I still love cinema, I just can't afford to have everything.

[BUZZFX]

R9 had spd? AFAIK nothing has ever been removed when upgrading

Matt, yes my mistake SPD didn't come with the R9 Core either. I still think it needs to be included in the core version.

What's surprising is that the more popular low to mid range 3D applications like MODO, Hexagon and Carerra all include SPD in there core. So why a mid to upper end application like Cinema 4D does not include it is beyond me.


.

[ThePriest]

Jenna has a displacement viewer that works like SPD, if sub-divided in a HyperNurbs object. Say Editor 1 - Renderer 4.

It's not quite the same. But it works in a similar way.

I agree on the modules though, to a degree,
It would almost make more sense to sell individual functionality, a customizable Cinema 4D,
based upon the items you need most. Certainly a new concept for those who only need one or two things from a whole module.

The Architectural module has an import funtion, I can't condone the price and Mograph has some additional Xpresso functionality that is definitely worth the price. Although I don't use any of it's other features. And now sadly, AR has seen it's last day as a render engine for my line of work.

[LucentDreams]

Yeah I'm not a big fan of the modules game either.

I don't have MoGraph, and from what I hear it makes alot of things much easier.
I used to use 3dsmax, and there was a displacement and noise modifier that allowed you to use greyscale images to directly modify the geometry in addition to the shader displacement function.
This was in 1999-2000, and it was a feature of the base application.

When I started with cinema I was kind of annoyed that it doesn't have a feature like that without purchasing the mograph module.

But in Maxon's defense, it does require quite a bit of resources to code the app so they want to get paid for it.


I still love cinema, I just can't afford to have everything.haha how much is max compared to cinema 4D and that module.

[LucentDreams]

Matt, yes my mistake SPD didn't come with the R9 Core either. I still think it needs to be included in the core version.

What's surprising is that the more popular low to mid range 3D applications like MODO, Hexagon and Carerra all include SPD in there core. So why a mid to upper end application like Cinema 4D does not include it is beyond me.


.

Because modo, hexaggon and silo are modelers, do they have animation, expressions, rigging etc? When they can do half of what cinema does you might have an argument, Modo is the only one remotely close.

[Dtox]

Some of the decisions that Maxon makes concerning it's new features and modules really REALLY leave me scratching my head sometimes.

As I said, I like the app alot, but when you compare the decisions of Maxon to that of say Autodesk, there's a schizophrenic element in play there.

Maybe I simply don't grasp the logic at work there, but the fact that we are even discussing this here means that I'm not alone in that.

I apologize for the blasphemy to those here who take offense at these sort of discussions, because it seems that anytime these discussions take place that someone responds with at least a little bit of hostility.

We're all entitled to our own ideas and opinions though, and nobody is talking about boycotting or anything sinister.
It's just cinema users discussing the pros and cons of the app as this board is intended for.

So, I wonder who's gonna be the first one to step up in defense of all things Maxon does?
Maybe we can get a little bet going on who it will be?

[Dtox]

Damn, I would've lost that bet had there actually been one.

Yes, there is absolutely a price difference. And if it mattered that much to me, I'd have a Boxxx workstation and Max 2008.

However, I find cinema to be a very competent app and the price is definitely right.
I also don't see a displacement/noise modifier to be a feature that means the difference in price between the 2 apps.
Max also ships with mental ray, which makes a big difference in price.

I realize that the 2 apps can't really be compared to each other overall.
And it would be stupid to sit here and nitpick about this subject.

I'm not saying that cinema or Maxon sucks, there are just some things that don't make sense to me about the decisions.
I'm not trying to make an argument against Maxon.

I'm simply voicing my opinion on the subject at hand.
I'm sorry that my opinion offends you Lucent.
It's not my intention to do that.

I think that you're being just a little bit quick to defend Maxon, seeing as to how there is no attack being perpetrated against you or Maxon or cinema.
Don't forget that I'm a cinema user. There's reason for that.

What there is NOT reason for is people getting defensive.
If you have no issues with any aspect of cinema, great.
I totally respect that and you will never see me arguing with you about why you should have issue with it in any way.
Being a cinema user and Maxon customer, I sincerely believe that I am well within my rights to comment on any aspect of cinema or Maxon that I like or dislike.

You have every right to form your own opinions and judgements regarding your feelings about my comments.
Just don't get in my face about it.

I'm of the opinion that cinema should include a simple displacement/noise modifier in the base package.
It's obviously not something that affects my decision to be a cinema user or else I wouldn't be one.
I understand your perspective on the subject, and your opinion is valid.
In other words, you have a good point regarding the price difference.
You don't need to argue your point with me.
You'll never convince me that my own opinion on it is not valid.

It would be utterly pointless for you and I to develop any hostility toward each other over this.
We should just agree that cinema is a great app that suits both of our needs.

Same goes for anyone else who thinks that it's their duty to be Maxons henchman.

[Scott Ayers]

You guys have to remember to take the timing in which maxon included displacement support. To understand why it's in a seperate module.

If I'm not mistaken. AR with the displacement option was created sometime either just before, or just after the launch of Z-Brush.
Back then. Displacement mapping wasn't that popular.
So the fact that the option was inside a module wasn't really a bad idea.

Times have changed. And now displacement mapping is all the rage.
But due to not knowing what the future was going to be. Maxon ended up making what turned out to be an unpopular decision.
Chalk it up to hindsite being 20/20.

Of course they could always change it. But I think they had so many more important updates to worry about that they couldn't worry about it.
I mean c'mon. They didn't even have the standard joint based bones that were around for a decade up until a short time ago. They've been very busy playing catch up.
Not to mention that it helps to sell their AR module this way. :D

[danb]

I agree that it should be put into the core module also. Think about the game makers of the world. Core has some excellent modelling tools, then add on bodypaint. If core had SPD then core plus bodypaint would be only what a game creator would need.

[Dtox]

I mean c'mon. They didn't even have the standard joint based bones that were around for a decade up until a short time ago. They've been very busy playing catch up.
Not to mention that it helps to sell their AR module this way.
It kinda seems like Maxon had a sudden change in user base.
Almost like the app itself went from being primarily a hobbyist app, to being a viable professional option faster than Maxon could adapt to the change.
Seems like it's only been over the last couple years that you hear about cinema being in the pipeline of major studios and productions.
So maybe there will be big change in cinema sometime soon to try to make it more professionally oriented?

[danb]

It kinda seems like Maxon had a sudden change in user base.
Almost like the app itself went from being primarily a hobbyist app, to being a viable professional option faster than Maxon could adapt to the change.
Seems like it's only been over the last couple years that you hear about cinema being in the pipeline of major studios and productions.
So maybe there will be big change in cinema sometime soon to try to make it more professionally oriented?

I agree with your idea that there has been an explosion of studios turning their attention to cinema 4d within the past 2-3 years, but i feel that this is because Maxon does an excellent job of creating a superb proffesional product right from the beginning starting with r 8.

Having said all this i don't see many pitfalls at all from c4d, while conversly i see many with the older appz like maya, 3ds max and lightwave. IMO i feel that xsi, houdini and c4d will be the heavy hitters at the top of their game within the next 5 years. Also i feel that the "buy everything" trend from autodesk is an act of desperation to try to corner the market as a result of lagging sales because of programs like c4d, zbrush and xsi. I believe this is why autodesk bought motion builder and doubled the price of it. Boo to autodesk. :)

[designbytes]

Just Released!

New Cinema4d v10.5+ ...now includes displacement other Advanced Render components!!!

only $1490...Available today!

;-)

[LucentDreams]

so defensive ;) Look I see all sorts of weird features that are in modules instead of core an vise versa features that are n core instead of modules I see faults in their logic all the times especially as a tester who doesn't know where a feature will end up till they get ready to release you somtimes think hey such and such feature will be awesome for cinema and then discover its tucked away in some module most won't need to get.

I'm not defending those choices but pointing out the flaws in some peoples logics. If you'd compared it to say Lightwave and its price you'd have a decent point, the only major thing LW doesn't have compared to cinema in the core is 3D painting, The logic people have here though is comparing either an app that is so much more expensive it should be compared with studio, or comparing an a bunch os small specialized modeling apps that can only be used as part of a pipeline in which money must be spent on another app to complete that pipeline.

[Dtox]

What???
Are you being a wise arse??

[soccerrprp]

So, if no AR, Jenna can substitute?

Richard

[LucentDreams]

So, if no AR, Jenna can substitute?

Richard
shouldn't need Jenna thats only if you need to see displacement in the editor.

If you don't have AR you use a hypernurbs object and lots of memory.

[soccerrprp]

Thanks, Kai.

[georgedrakakis]

shouldn't need Jenna thats only if you need to see displacement in the editor.

i know i should do a bit of googling, but where can i get Jenna?
displacemant in the editor would make shader workflow much easier.

[imashination]

Theres plenty of things i think should be in the base package, personally:

HDRI probe conversion (AR)
SPD (mograph)
editor spd display (mograph)
cappucino (mocca)
spline mask (mograph)

I think cloth would have been better suited as part of the dynamics module and i think maxon should have saved xpresso for mograph to make it even more attractive.

Im very happy that they added uv editing to the base package, but I also think they gave away far too much for free when they could have still sold bodypaint individually. However i can see the logic, they now get to claim that lots of studios use cinema 4d, even if they only use it for painting... plus the studio might start using more and more of the c4d side of things.

Some stuff you get, some stuff you dont. But you cant complain that other apps have something as standard when they either cost 4x as much, or they lack monumentally large areas like animation, or materials.

[Dtox]

Some stuff you get, some stuff you dont. But you cant complain that other apps have something as standard when they either cost 4x as much, or they lack monumentally large areas like animation, or materials.
Granted.
But my point wasn't "well max has it and so should we", it was "max had it in 1998, and we're here in 2008 and cinema doesn't have it in the base package which I think is a mistake".
There's quite a bit of difference between the 2 statements. One amounts to whining, the other is simply an opinion on the software that we choose to use.
There's really not much difference between what I said and when someone talks about how great a new feature is. They're both opinions that represent both sides of the spectrum.

Why would one be acceptable but not the other?
It's almost like a taboo subject or something. Like being critical of Maxon in any way is simply not acceptable around here.
We all love the app in one way or another otherwise we'd be over in the Max or Maya subforum having this conversation there.

You have to bear in mind too that if alot of people really started complaining like that, Maxon would probably take heed and make some compromises.
I'm not calling for that or even suggesting it should be done.

It's the customers that allow Maxon to profit from the software. Without us they wouldn't exist.
It's also pretty safe to assume that Maxon has people relaying information regarding users needs, requests, and complaints from places like this.

Srek is a Maxon employee and board moderator here. I don't know if he gives input to Maxon in that manner or not, it could very well not be in his job description.
But it's a safe bet that Maxon at least gets some input from online communities of cinema users.
With that in mind, voicing your opinion in a civil manner could prove to be beneficial.

[govinda]

Please let go of the 'hobbyist' canard. I don't think you know how uninformed that sounds, nor how it perpetuates a very dumb and actually damaging prejudice from a professional point of view. If C4D was a hobbyist's app, say, three years ago, I know several motion graphics designers who'd have to return hundreds of thousands of dollars each. Likewise with arch-vis. If it's not in a major studio's pipeline, the alternative isn't merely that it's being used as a hobby. There are a lot of very lucrative livings being made in the space between the major studios and those very talented part-timers whom we all respect greatly. Please take this in the cordial spirit intended, and by all means if you make a twenty paragraph reply, be aware that nobody is going to read it. ;) I know--I write too much myself.

[xfon5168]

Like being critical of Maxon in any way is simply not acceptable around here.


Jeez louise, get real. People will say something bad about MAXON, they're totally allowed to. But don't point fingers at people who try refute things when they are able to. People post a lot of false information sometime, and some users can shed some light on why something is the way it is. (This is not directed at you personally, just at that statement)

I personally think MAXON must be doin a kickass job because there used to be a lot of threads bitching about lacking features etc. and it's kind of been a while since a big one. So it just SEEMS like ur not allowed to complain since we've all been pretty well entertained lately


You have to bear in mind too that if alot of people really started complaining like that, Maxon would probably take heed and make some compromises.
I'm not calling for that or even suggesting it should be done.

Perhaps, but this forum is not the place for it to be done. There are forms on the website for feature requests, THAT is where these kind of things should be done.


It's the customers that allow Maxon to profit from the software. Without us they wouldn't exist.
It's also pretty safe to assume that Maxon has people relaying information regarding users needs, requests, and complaints from places like this.

Srek is a Maxon employee and board moderator here. I don't know if he gives input to Maxon in that manner or not, it could very well not be in his job description.
But it's a safe bet that Maxon at least gets some input from online communities of cinema users.
With that in mind, voicing your opinion in a civil manner could prove to be beneficial.


It's a 2 way street. A lot of small studios would be S.O.L. without Cinema 4D. We the customer help them generate revenue, but we need them to generate ours. Otherwise you must choose another, and probably overpriced, software.

Anyway, like I said before, If you want something changed, CGTalk is not the best place to do it. The Feature Request form on the Maxon website would be better.

My personal opinion about displacement viewing in the editor and SPD is not as big a deal. Granted I have Mograph and AR, so I can use the, but I don't need them so much. So the necessity depends on your line of work. I do more Character Animation stuff, so SPD would eat me alive.

(drops 2 cents into the hat)

[Per-Anders]

Guys just a note, while CGTalk and MAXON both desire and find useful open debate and discussion I do feel I should step in now before this escalates any further and post a reminder to please keep things civil.

There's room for all sides to have a voice but I would recommend that any suggestions you have about Cinema4D be sent to MAXON directly through the feedback form as although MAXON employees do frequent these forums they are just human and may miss your post or thread and even if they see it there's no guarantee that they'll personally remember to add it into the database (they do their best, but you have to remember they're quite busy people).

[BUZZFX]

Well this discussion has been good IMO. At least I am not the only one who thinks that SPD should be added to the core, not that that helps me right now! And to those who said this is not the place to voice my complaints but on the Maxon forum, well It's already been done. Sent Maxon an email regarding this and here was the reply.

"Displacement is part of the basic package of CINEMA 4D. Sub Polygon Displacement on the other hand is available as a part of Advanced Render, as advertised on our website.
http://www.maxon.net/pages/products/modules/advancedrender/advancedrender_e.html
In many cases you can use a higher subdivided geometry or a Hyper NURBS object instead of SPD, but SPD allows for less memory usage and some options that are not available otherwise."

Not the reply I was hoping for but a reply none-the-less. I just can't afford to spend the $595 US to add SPD to Cinema. I mean what's frustrating is I can't even import a displacement map from Zbrush and use it in the Core version with good results. And in reply to the Maxon email, why would I want to use a higher subdivided geometry? That defeats the purpose of SPD. SPD was created just to avoid using higher geometry. SPD allows Users to fake the higher geometry while using a low poly count.

So my last question. Does anyone know if any of the other after market renderers for C4D include SPD? and are any of them less $$ than the AR module?


Thanks :)

[imashination]

SPD does actually just subdivide the geometry, sure it uses less ram etc but its largely the same as using HN

[Srek]

Not the reply I was hoping for
Sorry for the disapointing answer, i replied before i read the thread here and your inital mail did sound more like you were expecting to already having SPD included with the core package, not like a suggestion for a future change in the feature distribution.
Cheers
Björn

[Dtox]

Jeez louise, get real. People will say something bad about MAXON, they're totally allowed to. Yes, and then not only are those people already frustrated, but then they have to defend their viewpoint against those who think that Maxon can do no wrong, or those who think that this forum is only for what they think it should be for.
Nobody is coming in and saying this can't be discussed.
But many people are coming in and saying that it SHOULD NOT be discussed.

Perhaps, but this forum is not the place for it to be done. There are forms on the website for feature requests, THAT is where these kind of things should be done.
That is where a "Formal" request should be made.
This is merely a discussion, where people express opinion. This isn't a "Formal call for change" being done in the wrong place.
Do you not see the difference?
Are you saying that the shortcomings of Maxon in users opinion should simply never be discussed here?
Sounds like it.
Because this discussion is basically about personal opinions regarding features of cinema.
I would bet that to send Maxon a personal opinion regarding a feature set, would generate a response very close to the one you gave here.
If any response were given at all.

So what then?
Sounds an awful lot like we're damned if we do, damned if we don't.

My personal opinion about displacement viewing in the editor and SPD is not as big a deal. That's great. And I fully support your right to have this opinion, and state it here on the boards.
So why don't you support that same right for me?
Is it that only benign opinion or positive opinion is accepted? You've never said anything about not liking something about cinema to a colleague here or in person?
That's all that's happening here. I'm not trying to say anything more than some things about cinema annoy me.
I have AR, and I can use SPD.
I merely joined in a discussion relating to how the modules in cinema frustrate me at times.
Do you really think it's at all advisable for me to send Maxon an email asking them to rethink their marketing strategy because it frustrates me?
Doing that would be asking for more frustration.
Are you saying that when someone has an opinion regarding something that isn't positive or benign in nature, that they should just keep it to themselves?

Because I don't have such a large problem regarding anything in cinema that justifies bringing it to Maxon.
I don't have suggestions or feature requests.
I only have opinions on how a displacement/noise modifier in the core of cinema would be nice.

Now the whole thing has taken on a new life. Where it seems that I have to defend my right to have this opinion, and my right to discuss it if it comes up.
What is THAT all about? That's all I want to know!

[govinda]

Editor display of displacement should be core. We need NLA back. Multilayer EXR needs support. I don't really like the Maxon logo. Srek's new avatar looks like Richard D. James in his Windowlicker phase. He scares me now.

I'm waiting for the lightning to strike me dead...

Seeing none, I move on, relatively confident that it's okay to criticize the app.

[Srek]

I did not expect this topic to stir so strong emotions.

I appreciate all input (positive or negative) on the application and the general product strategy, but please be aware that the current combinations of modules and features has been thought through pretty thoroughly. Of course there are always alternatives and other options, but at some point a decision has to be made on what feature should be put where.
These decisions might change over time, the integration of BodyPaint 3D in the core app is imo a pretty good example for this.
Feel free to suggest changes to the general product strategy but please be aware that this is nothing that is changed on a whim.
Also the general principle of splitting the whole package in modules has been a very large success for MAXON so a reversion back to an all in one package is extremely unlikely, as is the movement of key module features to the core package. After all this would mean that the value and price of the core package would need to be increased, which is something i very much wouldn't like to see.
Cheers
Björn

[Dtox]

Please let go of the 'hobbyist' canard. I don't think you know how uninformed that sounds, nor how it perpetuates a very dumb and actually damaging prejudice from a professional point of view.
Please let go of that "professional" canard. I don't think you know how elitist and desperate that sounds, nor how it perpetuates a very dumb and damaging prejudice from a much more humble point of view.

Let me re-phrase it.
"Being an app at a price that non-professionals can afford" as opposed to "an app that only rich non-professionals and professionals can afford" such as Max.

IMO, the term 'hobbyist' has everything to do with price and little to do with the output quality that an app is capable.

No offense intended govinda, just thought you should know it goes both ways.


I did not expect this topic to stir so strong emotions.
I 2nd THAT emotion.

[govinda]

Unbelievable.

Out of respect for the moderators I'll leave it at that.

[Dtox]

govinda, I just couldn't resist it. It sounded too good in my head for me not to post it.

I meant it in a more lighthearted manner than you took it.

I don't see you as elitist or desperate, and your work speaks for itself.
Like I said no offense intended, I just have a self control problem.

[wuensch]

solution:
use Displacement without SPD (since not available) put Mesh in Hypernurb, rendersubD same as desired SPD factor (algorhithm Standard Catmull-Clark):
Voila, result will be exactly the same as with SPD with the advantage of it rendering also with Sketch & Toon.

[JeremyW]

R9 had spd? AFAIK nothing has ever been removed when upgrading

OK. I need to speak out on that one.
How about timeline sequences, and workable time curves.
The R10.x timeline is seriously weak compared to R7. No Joke!

[govinda]

I don't see you as elitist or desperate, and your work speaks for itself.
Like I said no offense intended, I just have a self control problem.Actually my work doesn't because I never show it! :D No offense taken, reiterating my PM. Cheers!

[JoelOtron]

This is turning into a christmas wish list...

If we're talking about timeline enhancements, PLA curves would be nice too. ;)

[govinda]

I take it back, one thing and one thing only, is missing.

http://www.planetsandvegetables.com/cgtalk/maxon_monkey.jpg

Edit: My New Year's Resolution list is topped by, 'Be less flippant on CGTalk.'

[Dtox]

Actually my work doesn't because I never show it!
Me neither.
For stupid reason too. I'm hypercritical of my own work.
Everytime I have something that I think I would feel good showing, I find reasons that it isn't and decide not to show it.
Almost pathologically.

I've allowed it to spiral into something so big that now I don't know how to work through it.

[soccerrprp]

Everyone knows what C4D is missing. Getting heated about it is not necessary. Just present your feelings to the"right" people and get on with providing those of us who are still learning with the education, insight, work-arounds that are always constructive.

I am not an artist by any stretch of the imagination and do not claim to know all there is to know about what a 3D app should or should not have, but I know that C4D has proven to be more than capable for my purposes.

The other thing that is so dangerous is expressing oneself via emails, forums, etc. One is never TRULY certain to what tone the messages are being expressed.

Just my 2-cents.

Richard

[danb]

Me neither.
For stupid reason too. I'm hypercritical of my own work.
Everytime I have something that I think I would feel good showing, I find reasons that it isn't and decide not to show it.
Almost pathologically.

I've allowed it to spiral into something so big that now I don't know how to work through it.

I used to have this same problem. Family members, college proffesors, and other artists all wondered why i wasn't showing or doing the work they new i could do.

This is way off topic but what it is is a fear of success. There is an actual phobia of success.

You just need to take some small steps in getting some work out there and toughening up for the inevitable critiques and harshness that is the life of an artist. :)

Good luck.

[imashination]

OK. I need to speak out on that one.
How about timeline sequences, and workable time curves.
The R10.x timeline is seriously weak compared to R7. No Joke!

Well, ok youre right on that one. Personally i'd take the R10 TL over any previous one, but im not doing any serious work with mocap data; that which I am doing Im happy having it changed back in motion builder and reimporting, or just rescaling regions in R10.

However, the number of people using time curves isnt too far from those using 7.1 surround sound creation

[JeremyW]

Well, ok youre right on that one. Personally i'd take the R10 TL over any previous one, but im not doing any serious work with mocap data; that which I am doing Im happy having it changed back in motion builder and reimporting, or just rescaling regions in R10.

However, the number of people using time curves isnt too far from those using 7.1 surround sound creation

???
You are saying I am only one of a handful of people that want movements to ease in and ease out? Using f-curves for this demands that the object move alone a straight line, which is not workable. Please shed some light on this.

[imashination]

Why would adjusting an objects fcurve require it to move along a straight line? youve lost me now.

[Dtox]

This is way off topic but what it is is a fear of success. There is an actual phobia of success.

You just need to take some small steps in getting some work out there and toughening up for the inevitable critiques and harshness that is the life of an artist.
I've heard of the success phobia. I believe it's very possible that it's part of my problem.
There are other aspects related to this also.
A big one is that I don't know when a piece is done. There is supposedly a point where you need to consider something finished, and I don't recognize that when it comes.
I honestly don't understand how others find that point either. Because something can always be better.
Another thing is that I want what I show to represent my skill. And anytime I get heavily into a new project my skill level increases because of it. So to me that means that particular work doesn't represent my skill because my skill improved during it.
And this cycle repeats endlessly.
That "endless loop" plagues me in other aspects of life though too.
It's a bit of OCD I think. It seems that if a situation has even the smallest possibility to get locked into an endless loop, that it's almost guaranteed that it will if I'm in any way involved.
I'm a magnet to endless loops, either they find me or I find them(there's one right there).

I also have a hard time finding a happy medium of render settings vs render time.
I might start to render a project, and 9 hours later when the pre-pass is still not half done, I either see something that I want to change or feel that I need to adjust something to reduce the render time.
I do prop objects, textures, and sometimes lighting for a local architect firm on occasion.
I have no problem with finishing that, or presenting that because it's what they want, not what "I" want.
It's a very simple trade. I give them what they want, and they pay me.
The trouble appears when the project will represent my skill level as a whole.

[JeremyW]

Why would adjusting an objects fcurve require it to move along a straight line? youve lost me now.

Like so. If I am missing something, I would love to know.

[Cactus Dan]

The other thing that is so dangerous is expressing oneself via emails, forums, etc. One is never TRULY certain to what tone the messages are being expressed.

Just my 2-cents.
Howdy,

This is sooooo True. Words that we read are just words. There's no feeling in the words themselves, so we have a tendency to put our own feelings into what we read. ;)

And now I feel guilty, because I've added another post to this thread that may potentially perpetuate the thread, thereby possibly pushing other threads where someone needs help off the first page and into oblivion. :blush:

Adios,
Cactus Dan

[ernia]

To the rescue, Cactus Dan! ;)

. . .
And this cycle repeats endlessly.
That "endless loop" plagues me in other aspects of life though too.
. . .

I hear ya, Dtox. Perhaps give this a try, man.

Apparently, as an East-Indian meditation teacher once explained it to me, our thoughts take on weight the more we think them. This density creates a kind of gravity that pulls any surrounding things or thoughts inward--like a black hole. We all know someone with a huge ego, don't we? This weight creates gravity and the gravity creates spinning--a la galaxies. The spinning thus generated we see as repeated cycles in our intentions and actions. If we want to stop the repetition of our thoughts and actions then we need to be like a spinning ice skater: when they want to spin faster they take their arms(weight) into their center, and when they want to spin slower the extend their arms(weight). So, if we want to stop ourselves from going through the same old shit then we have to take that thought weight we generate, that obsession, and hold it at arm's length, away from our center, and we will stop spinning enough to start thinking about something else.

I know, I know, I know . . . easier said than done. But, there it is.

There. I just saved you $200K in psychotherapy :)

I wonder if I could simulate this mumbo jumbo with the dynamics module. Or better yet, Cactus Dan's new spring contraint might just do the trick.

Good luck,
ernia

[Sammer]

Hey JeremyW,

It looks in your movie you've got two keys that you've adjusted the tangents on to make the cube move in z and then return to it's starting point. The easyease key type (called 'flat' in some programs) tells the keys tangents to be horixontal, which if you have two keys at different values and set them both to easyease would cause the movement to 'ease out' on one end and 'ease in' at the other.

Since you have two keys that are the same value and have adjusted the tangents when you select both keys and hit easyease the tangents on both keys flatten which results in no movement.

Using your set up as an example if you set a key at frame 53 and make it's type easyease the cube will 'ease in' to frame 53 and then 'ease out' on it's way to 90f.

This assumes of course I understand what your saying and we're both using the same definition of 'ease', which is used often used two different ways depending....

Hth,

Sam

[Zendorf]

Have the guys that are complaining about a lack of SPD in the core actually tried using it in production? If so, then they would know that while it is convenient to have your subdivision settings within the displacement channel (as opposed to within the parent HN object) it is usually much slower than using the old school HN method.

Of course the main reason for using SPD is to avoid out memory errors. Quality wise there is no difference as long as you have enough subdivisons, and being a displacement fanatic who is always working to a deadline I will take the speedier HN route everytime. Zbrush derived displacement maps will work perfectly fine in this manner by the way.

Now, granted I don't own the AR module by choice as I use FR and Vray instead...like any customer I vote with my wallet:wise: I am currently on an animation project that requires vast landscapes with upward of 10 million displaced polys and FR handles that fine (on a 32 bit OS no less)....as always you use the tool that gets the job done best and quickest.

While at work they have whole Studio bundle , I still find myself using the HN displacement route as opposed to the SPD one, since time is always of the essence especially when doing 50 fps 1080HD work.

Personally I think that AR should be merged with the core, and I won't be buying the only modules I don't own (AR and Dynamics) till they are updated, since there are better options currently available (FR,Vray and Phytools/Silverbullet).....But either way C4D stills rocks my CG world:buttrock:

[seco7]

Can we discuss something really important? ... Srek's avatar is really freaking me out. I don't think I'll be able to sleep tonight?!



Edit: Just joking of course ... :)

[Incarnadine]

it's that slightly evil manic grin (grin!)

[govinda]

http://www.planetsandvegetables.com/cgtalk/james_santa.jpg


http://www.planetsandvegetables.com/james_santa.jpghttp://www.planetsandvegetables.com/james_santa.jpgI knew I'd seen him somewhere before.

[Srek]

Srek's avatar is really freaking me out. I don't think I'll be able to sleep tonight?!

Better now? :D

[seco7]

Oh yes, much better ... but are those cow ear muffs?!?!

[Dtox]

No! It's worse now. Make it stop.
Kidding...

Seriously though, Srek, are you sitting in the back of a love machine in that 2nd photo?
Who's in there with ya?
Donna from That 70's Show?

[JoelOtron]

Merry Maxmas one and all.

[Dtox]

Have the guys that are complaining about a lack of SPD in the core actually tried using it in production? If so, then they would know that while it is convenient to have your subdivision settings within the displacement channel (as opposed to within the parent HN object) it is usually much slower than using the old school HN method.
I'm not talking about SPD in AR. I'm talking about a displacement/noise modifier that works directly on an object.
Which would do something similar to the set point value/crumple tool, only based on a grayscale image.
Which would allow you to do something like deform a cube into a rock face with the noise shader.
Mograph offers this, but it would be nice if it was part of the core. Seems like such a basic function that shouldn't need a seperate module.
I can get by just fine without it now, but it puzzled me when I first started using cinema because it was a basic core function of 3dsmax back in 1998.
I was just adding that in relation to paint guys comments about SPD when all this drama began to unfold.

[heathivan]

this hodgepodge thread needs one more vote with Govinda and JeremyW for NLA, and timeline enhancements. Can't wait for my dream-timeline to be realized in Cinema. (even though the 9.5 one was pretty dang good)

NLA, NLA!

---h

[Dtox]

I hear ya, Dtox. Perhaps give this a try, man.

Apparently, as an East-Indian meditation teacher once explained it to me, our thoughts take on weight the more we think them. This density creates a kind of gravity that pulls any surrounding things or thoughts inward--like a black hole. We all know someone with a huge ego, don't we? This weight creates gravity and the gravity creates spinning--a la galaxies. The spinning thus generated we see as repeated cycles in our intentions and actions. If we want to stop the repetition of our thoughts and actions then we need to be like a spinning ice skater: when they want to spin faster they take their arms(weight) into their center, and when they want to spin slower the extend their arms(weight). So, if we want to stop ourselves from going through the same old shit then we have to take that thought weight we generate, that obsession, and hold it at arm's length, away from our center, and we will stop spinning enough to start thinking about something else.

I know, I know, I know . . . easier said than done. But, there it is.

There. I just saved you $200K in psychotherapy.
I had to take some time with this.
Now that I have, I think it's absolutely true.
It fits with alot of things I've thought about over the years.
In jr. high when I learned about cell structure and behavior it became immediately apparent that these same patterns repeat, just on different scales.

Particles on the atomic scale bear a striking resemblance to celestial phenomena.
I've always been fascinated with the notion of the universe as a simulation.
And when you think about it, thoughts do seem to have a structure that brings to mind the concept of singularity.
Where a central thought pulls in data from surrounding areas.
It's known that the most efficient way to remember something is to make a network of associations with it in your mind.
This suggests to me that emotion is simply a way for us to create nodes of association or memories in other words.
Because it seems to be a biological function for that specific purpose, if you agree with the concept of occums razor.
The alternative would sort of suggest that there's an unknown force which wants us to experience things.
Which IMO, is not the most likely scenario, again going by occums razor.

And this would insinuate in a way that humans are information machines.
Cells which facilitate the function of awareness.
A way for the larger scale entity to be aware of itself.
If your ideas gravitate toward the grandiose, it wouldn't be real far fetched to imagine that with that in mind there are most likely things that we don't know we're capable of.

I've read some interesting papers on the science of intelligence.
Which describes thoughts and memories as existing on a spider web like structure.
Sort of like a mesh in a sense, where each point represents a memory node.
Activating a node also activates other adjacent nodes that are associated with each other.
This is just a visual way to describe the structure, not a literal definition.
So you could also describe it using the singularity approach.
Where instead of nodes on a spider web, thoughts and memories could be described as singularities that when activated pull related data in.

So this then makes you wonder if it's possible that actual singularities we observe in the universe, are the equivalent of thoughts or access nodes on a larger scale.
Where our universe is merely a cluster of nodes or cells in the structure of a larger entity.


Thanks for offering this to the discussion. Very enlightening.
You've either helped me to make better sense of things, or given me fuel to drive myself more insane.

I wonder if I could simulate this mumbo jumbo with the dynamics module.
I was thinking the same thing. Not the dynamics module specifically, but how this could be visualized.

[bobzilla]

I'm going to eat mayonaise-Homer Simpson

Thought I'd bring the discussion down anotch or two...

[georgedrakakis]

with mayo or not :), this is certainly one of the most fascinating threads i've ever read in cgtalk.
cheers,
george

[JoelOtron]

I'm not talking about SPD in AR. I'm talking about a displacement/noise modifier that works directly on an object.
Which would do something similar to the set point value/crumple tool, only based on a grayscale image.
Which would allow you to do something like deform a cube into a rock face with the noise shader.
Mograph offers this, but it would be nice if it was part of the core. Seems like such a basic function that shouldn't need a seperate module.
I can get by just fine without it now, but it puzzled me when I first started using cinema because it was a basic core function of 3dsmax back in 1998.
I was just adding that in relation to paint guys comments about SPD when all this drama began to unfold.

If you are able to still run Jenna (dont ask me were to find it now)--that came with Nickl--which is deformer that is very similar to mographs displace deformer. I THINK it still runs on the windows version of c4d but broke with the mac version of 10.0.

Nickl was actually availabe for free for a few years before becoming integrated with Jenna.

[Srek]

Seriously though, Srek, are you sitting in the back of a love machine in that 2nd photo?
Who's in there with ya?
Donna from That 70's Show?
It's only an old coach i'm sitting in with some other guys and gals from MAXON on a trip, monkeying around. Believe me, it's one of the tamer pictures, those magnetic hoove cows can do amazing stunts ;)
Cheers
Björn

[Dtox]

I'm probably missing the obvious here, might even feel dense after I ask.
But WTH is a magnetic hooved cow?

[Srek]

But WTH is a magnetic hooved cow?
Just a small toy cow with magnets inside of the hooves so you can connect them to any metal surface or one another. Silly fun ;)
Cheers
Björn

[Darter]

It's a cow with hooves(?!) and an alluring personality.

[Dtox]

Oh, OK.
The things on the sides of your hat.

I knew I was missing the obvious and I knew I'd feel dense after asking..

[Sneaker]

Like so. If I am missing something, I would love to know.

An option to maintain custom tangents and add easy-easy is to add a time track
right click your object in timeline>special track>time track
select your position tack and move the new time track into the appropiate timetrack field in
attributes.
Adjust the 2 automaticly created keyframes in the time track to match your position animation.
Apply easy-ease to the time track keys.

-Michael

[tapaul]

Hi Sneaker:)

[Sneaker]

Hi Sneaker:)
Hi Paul,
how's it going?
:)


-Michael

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