SAD DRAGON - Comments welcome!

[VISEone]

I could use some help with the fire - it doesn't really fit to the rest of the composition (imo)...
What do you guys think - any suggestions for lightin' it up ?

any help welcome!

[CybrGfx]

Before you tend to your fire, you need to tend to the lighting of the dragon. You have weird shadows where there should be none, and lit areas that should be dark...

Once you get that worked out, I'd lower the brightness of the ground, a fire would not illuminate it that well, nor that far out from the flame.

I'd also remove that giant crack under his butt. No one, dragon or otherwise, would sit over a crack like that, unless they were utilizing it...Is that why he is sad?

Cute character, nice sky. The main problem with your fire is it looks like a bunch of vertical strings. Fire is more like undulating sheets...Do a Google Image Search for Fire, or do a simple web search for "Photoshop Fire Tutorial," and practice rendering flames a bit more.

Best of success to you!

[VISEone]

Thanks CybrGfx. You are right with the shading & lightning-problem - I will follow your suggestions and work on that too. This results probably from starting with the dragon without a scene-setup - I tried to ad the scene after i drew the dragon...hmmpf (next time i will start with a concept :))
Also I will darken the ground away from the fire - I didn`t even realize I painted it so bright...and will move the crack from his butt - no that`s not why he`s sad :p

now i will search for a fire-tut and go back to the sad dragon...

[Advarsky]

Here's a little tut i made for you. This is my simple technique to make fire.
The most difficult in it is to study the hard mix. It can give you a very nice effect when you'll know how to work with it.
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/4202/fireob9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Go on.. And one more thing. The colour of lighting from fire is red far from the source and became yellow closer to it. It'll help you.

[VISEone]

That's very kind and helpful! Thank you!
I will follow this tut and have something to work on this weekend - first of all I have to study the sections of shade and light-areas - so if anyone finds some time and wants to mark the parts of light/shadow on the drawing - it will be aprecciated!
I might setup a simple scene in CINEMA 4D with a lightsource to study how the shadow falls or I try simple by guessing...
I thought the stomach is a little upfront so thats why I put a small shadow at the neck...hmmm I might start from the beginning after I figured where light and where shadow hits...

back to work! :wip:

[VISEone]

Well, as you can see - I started from the beginning.
The perspective of the fire is still wrong - I think it should be more horizontal - so I'll fix that later.
I think the shading/lightning is a little better now.

Hopefully you guys like it - any ideas, crits & comments welcome!

and thanks to Advarsky for the fire-tut - it helped a lot...:)

http://www.viseone.de/pentox/dragon-III.jpg

Detail Face:
http://www.viseone.de/pentox/dragon-III_face.jpg

Detail Feet/Fire:
http://www.viseone.de/pentox/dragon-III_feet.jpg

[Advarsky]

Very well! :applause: Now see what you are still missin: the ground near the fire is yellow, red-brown farther from it and when the fire light dissapears it's became dark blue. Of course there's a a shadow from little rocks that builds firenest. And your bonfire have wrong perspective. Fix it.
The fire is too smudged! You must not use smudge tool so obvious. There must be a light touches of this if you really want. Better add more "cloud" brush strokes to it. Maybe with some brush mode like colour dodge or something. It'll provide details.
Dragon shading is now nearly perfect imho. But the rear right leg must be in shadow with this fire position.
And erase these moustache! It's a dragon, - not a cat! :D
Try to build some perspective lines, counting only the dragon - they will help you with fire, ground and other environment. Add some background details like plants. (do not spoil it with default grass brush! =))
And one more thing: there won't be such light blue lighting from such dark blue sky. it's must be nearly invisible dark blue - a little more lighter then the sky, i think...

[VISEone]

Thanks!
Yes, the moustache... - it's an item of the original sketch by my buddy - I already erased it...
I will work on that ground/fire and perspective problem - I'm glad the dragon is almost final - so the scene shouldn't be so hard - I will follow your suggestion about the perspective-lines to get a grid for the setup...
I thought the lightsource for the blue could've been the moon - but I will try to darken that blue to a little lighter than the sky...also the rear right leg - you are right!

no defaults gras-brush - of course :wise:

thanks for all this constructive advises - I just started with this - so I can use any help to become better...

[VISEone]

Here`s another update of my working progress. I already learned a lot and finally like this composition here.
The fire is still missing - this will be done by tomorrow...
Hope you guys like it and as always - comments welcome!

- changed ground and fireplace/rocks
- added trees

One more question: Do you think some reflections of the firelight at the front- and/or background-trees would be good or should i leave it this way?

http://www.viseone.de/pentox/dragon-III_final1.jpg

[MichaelZHsee]

the dragon looks very sad indeed,nice capture on the facial expression:)the red on the body and the blue background seems alil too vivid and vibrant,perhaps tone down alttle on the saturation,keep up the good work mate

[Advarsky]

You didn't reworked the sky lighting on the dragon. There won't be such highlights on his rear left. it's must be dark blue, not violet. And the bonfire is missplased again, try move it higher and add some background stonest to it's structure. And throw some dark red to the environment, couse the fire(by the way, why there's no fire..?) casts weak read light on the trees, ground, e.t.c.
Don't give up yet! Your picture will be wonderful if you work a little more.. :thumbsup:

[Advarsky]

You didn't reworked the sky lighting on the dragon. There won't be such highlights on his rear left. it's must be dark blue, not violet. Remove this white-blue from his back and head. Change it to dark blue! And the bonfire is missplased again, try move it higher and add some background stonest to it's structure. And throw some dark red to the environment, couse the fire(by the way, why there's no fire..?) casts weak read light on the trees, ground, e.t.c.
Don't give up yet! Your picture will be wonderful if you work a little more.. :thumbsup:

[VISEone]

Hmm, yes, the bright blue reflections - I have to darken that to a darker blue.
But where do you think the fireplace should be located at? I thought this would be a good place. :sad: So you think it should be on the same horizontal line with the dragonfeets?

Oh, btw - the fire will be done tonight - I was too tired for that yesterday...

Well If you want to mark/draw some advices on my painting - I would appreciate :)
So should I add some red reflections on the foreground-trees and some more on the ground?

Thanks again for all that advices! I will work on that picture until it's finished...

[CybrGfx]

Good changes, this is developing very well!
Some of the advice you are now getting is more personal taste, than technical suggestions, so do not feel you really need to make ANY further serious changes to your piece.

1. The sky ~ The sky is FINE in update post #10. You are not a camera, and this piece is NOT going for "photorealistic." You have done a very good job of providing some contrast near the dragon's head for emphasis, and showing the horizon slightly with the treeline.
I would suggest more stars, and a few more opaque areas in the lighter blue, to delineate them as light clouds in the night sky. Problem solved. You might consider a slight dark to light gradient at the horizon line, to signify early evening, but it is not that major an issue.

2. The highlights ~ Honestly? get rid of them entirely. You have one main light source, the fire. The night sky is moonless, elsewise you would have to paint in every tree branch and pine needle. Adding a moon to justify those hightlights will just clutter up the work, so get rid of them.

3. The Light Source ~ This is where you need to stop, and sit down with a piece of paper and a pen/pencil and THINK, and sketch a bit.

WHAT is your Main Light Source? ~ The campfire
WHERE does it originate from? ~ The ground
WHERE is it in relation to your MAIN Focus Point (the Sad Dragon)? ~ In front, and even with his feet (which are on the ground)
HOW bright is it? (Keep in mind that fires are not very illuminative, unless they are large. The light that emanates from them dissipates quickly, except for the hotest gasses of the flame, which is why from a distance, you only see the bright glow, no reds, oranges, or blues.
HOW far does the light extend? ~ Not very, becuase it is a small fire.
At present, the light reflections off the sad dragon have no solid, logical base. Your imagination is trying to fill in the gaps as you go without forethought. This seldom to never works.
The brightest part of your Light Source is going to be at GROUND level. Not 3 feet up, where you have the brightest reflection off the stomach. The size of the fire would have to take up almost the middle of the bottom third of the canvas to illuminate the Sad Dragon that much.
Look at the following:
http://www.newt.com/wohler/events/yosemite-2004/campfire-big.jpg
http://gf.state.wy.us/images/expo/campfire1.jpg
http://www.rustyparts.com/pb/images/20051013203706_campfire.jpg ~ Note the sky, and note the firelight reflections at ground level, and going up...
http://project1.caryacademy.org/echoes/03-04/Gary_Snyder/images/Campfire.jpg ~ A nice fire reference for you when you get to painting it...
http://www.biotour.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/006_6_2.jpg ~ Note how CLOSE they are to that fire to be illuminated that brightly. Also note the way the rocks refract the light. Your painting shows them lit from above...
http://www.lincolnscouts.org/boyscouts/images/activities/bonfire03-copya.jpg ~Note how the ground is illuminated, note how BIG that fire is to illuminate that area, and how quickly the light drops off behind the people.

These are the things you need to think about and take into account when you illustrate.
I cannot do a PO, my PC is down at present, I am using a friend's. I would think out and write down the important considerations. Then I would adjust the work as needed. I think you should make the fire bigger, perhaps a small tree in flames, and have some smoke coming out of his nose, as if HE set the fire by sneezing on the tree perhaps.
Drop the highlights, and fade down all parts of the dragon not directly illuminated by the fire.
Bring the back part of the body around slightly for illumination. There is no tail visible on him, and the back foot is incorrectly illuminated, it looks like a small bowling pin coming off his butt.
Increase the light reflection off the toenails, as they are a harder and more reflective surface than the skin, but ONLY from the direction of the fire, not the sky.
Get rid of the blue around the white in the eyes, it's contrived looking.
Make the rocks around the fire less polished looking, and adjust the lighting.
Figure out the wings more. They don't even look functional, but worse, they look plasticy and not attached to the dragon. I'd get rid of the extended "stick" supports that extend outward past the skin, and reshape them somewhat.

The face of the Sad Dragon is still the best part, but the shadow under the upper lip is wonky. I'd eliminate the yellow highlight beneath his nose, and tone down the eyewhites a bit, but would otherwise leave that alone.

He's a cute guy, and this piece still holds a LOT of potential. You just need to think through the why of putting things where you do, illuminated the way they are. Look and Observe how things work in the "real world," so that you can render them semi-realistically. Artistic License will only help cover so many mistakes. After that, they merge together into an unsatisfying piece...

Looking forward to your next update!

[VISEone]

Thank you guys so much for your support and taking your time to help me. I really do appreciate this!
Well I know there's a lot of mistakes in this picture and I follow your suggestions - so hopefully it'll become better and better.
I just started with all this (got my first board 3 weeks ago) so I'm kinda satisfied with what I already got here - but I want to get better and all you mentioned makes sense to me and I'm glad to recieve any help with this.
I don't want to change a lot of the character itself because I want to stick to the original sketch but all the technical informations here are very helpful and I will try to solve the problems.
But I want to get an image of a cartoony painting still so maybe the dragon is still to bright illuminated but because it's a caricature of reality I might just darken him a little bit but I get rid of the back-highlights - you're all so right with that.

Thanks again and I'll keep you updated!

[VISEone]

After reading your comments I tried to eliminate some of my mistakes but I guess I'll have to take a break from my DRAGON to get a clear view again.
So far - like I said a couple of times - it looks good to me as a beginner and I still have to develope my skills a lot.
Some things I know how I want it to be painted but my skills aren't there yet :sad:.

So this is - let me call it SEMIFINAL - I'll sure will work on the DRAGON again in a few days after I worked on my drawing skills and get a better understanding on lights & shadows.

But for now I have to paint something different...

So here it is:

- I added some lightfreflections to the foreground-trees (even if the light wouldn't reach that high - but I did it for the look anyway)
- I hope the fireplace is in abetter position right now but I might have to change that again
- I got pretty much rid of the highlights and made them at least dark blue :)
- the bowling pin is now gone out of the butt (haha you were right!)
- area of light might still be to small - or too large?

http://viseone.de/pentox/SAD_DRAGON_semifinal_01.jpg

- and here's the original sketch where I started from...as you can tell - he wasn't sad in the original pose

http://viseone.de/pentox/SAD_DRAGON_semifinal_sketch.jpg

[RebeccaSx]

That is looking great!!

Yeah, sometimes looking/working on the same art gets tiring and you are less likely to see things others with a fresh eye see. One way to see these mistakes, is occasionally flip your picture upside down, or horizontally. The new perspective gives your eyes a fresh look and your able to pick up on more of the errors/ room for improvement :)

Keep up the great work!!

[Advarsky]

There's one more advice.. in Photoshop alt-menu: Image->Rotate Canvas->Flip Canvas Horizontal. It'll help you bring a new look.
I do not understand what the hell black "colour" does in your fire... :argh: There must be some bright strokes, but not black ones! =) Try use yellow with brush setting "colour dodge" (or smth near..). And your adjustments to environment arn't really good. There's too much black there. Almost no changes there. Try to look again at Cyber's refs and you'll see, what colours you need to use. And be strong, MAKE CHANGES! :thumbsup: Remove the white area under the dragon(i even don't understand what is it..). :wise:
Keep workin! :wip:
I just thought, maybe you move whole image down a little? 'Couse your horizon positioned almost in center of the piece and this is not good. If you move it down a little you'll open space for sky and this is very good i think. Agree? :applause:

[VISEone]

What white area do you mean - within the fireplace?
The kinda black parts in my fire should look like some wood-pieces - I took a reference picture and followed this pretty much. I might didn't get it right.:)
But I don't understand what you mean by the black areas in my environment - because I thought the fire would not illuminate the environment that far - so in my opinion there should be a dark color since the rest of the scene is night...

But like I said - I'll take a break for now and go back to the dragon later - meanwhile I study more reference-pictures to get what you mean.

I'll keep working :wip: - promise!

thanks!

[CybrGfx]

Really nice improvements!

You are WISE to recognize the need to "step back" once in awhile, and then come back to a piece with fresh eyes, good for you!

This really has pulled together nicely. The light from the fire now reads MUCH more believably, and the slight exaggerations of value and color work fine from an illustrative standpoint.

I think you have done wonderfully with this piece. A few minor tweaks, or not. I agree about the black in the fire, but it is a very minor sticking point, and does not seriously detract from this piece.

Understand, that you can "nit-pick" any piece until the end of time, and STILL not get it "perfect." You want to get to a point where you can say, "I've done my best, and it is 'good' at this stage," and then sign it and move on. There are many more works waiting to come to life.

You can pretty much call this one "done." GOOD JOB!

[VISEone]

That's a nice comment CybrGfx - thank you!

anyway - I did remove the dark areas in the fire...it is better now!

Today I will start another WIP Dragon - and leave the ELF on hold...

Here's the update:

http://www.viseone.de/pentox/SAD-DRAGON-final.jpg

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