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View Full Version : News on PMG about 3.0 release


Nichod
11-26-2007, 04:24 AM
Direct quote from the site:

http://projectmessiah.com/x4/images/messiah3_banner_02.gif


messiah 3.0 Coming Soon! November 25, 2007
We will be announcing the pricing and shipping date for messiah studio very soon. For many people, the biggest new feature is Fur, which for a while now has been the number one requested feature. There are plenty of other new features, both for animating and rendering, so check back here for further announcements.

Julez4001
11-27-2007, 01:54 AM
wow. 127 views and nothing in 10 hours.

MikeBuckland
11-27-2007, 05:18 AM
Im very excited :bounce:

calilifestyle
11-27-2007, 07:13 PM
im bit confused?? price change for ever version. i don't know, i guess just wait see.

shadowfork
11-27-2007, 08:12 PM
wow. 127 views and nothing in 10 hours.

Hehehe.

Guess not everyone is too excited about FUR.

I'll jump in joy when I find out what else is with this update.

Back in the shadows for now...


BTW, what happend to M:Animate? It's not on the shop. Discontinued?

Was thinking of getting another seat for our messiah <-> modo pipeline.

Ulven
11-27-2007, 09:26 PM
I think it's awesome :)
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/3067/32ab7.jpg

calilifestyle
11-27-2007, 11:01 PM
lol yeah so i guess we can thanks softimage for this spike in software price. they add hair and fur to there middle level product and now ever one is going to run out and change their prices. btw if i just want hair i would be still playing with AM:hash. i guess i'm not one to talk, since i dont have messiah. I have been on the fence for some time, waiting to see what's in store for next rev. but ill say this if the price is as much or more then xsi foundation then i think i know which i be going.

rush123
11-27-2007, 11:23 PM
Me as well, Ulven :)

http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/1348/grass3rx9.th.jpg (http://img159.imageshack.us/my.php?image=grass3rx9.jpg)

shadowfork
11-28-2007, 12:16 AM
http://agimatstudio.com/z_trash/fur.jpg

Done in saslite.

Barely done anything. Just loaded the object, turn on saslite, and hit F9.
Didn't even bother turning anti-alias on or anything...

:shrug:

Ulven
11-28-2007, 01:01 AM
But... saslite doesn't support reflections, sss, gi, ummmm I dont think it's even got shadows!. How is that an option?

shadowfork
11-28-2007, 01:29 AM
But... saslite doesn't support reflections, sss, gi, ummmm I dont think it's even got shadows!. How is that an option?

Touché.

I am aware of that. Still, not so excited about fur.

Very anxious what they have on the animation front though.

Will your Autorig be included on v3? Good job there mate.

Nichod
11-28-2007, 01:49 AM
Just to place the focus on parts of the quote...for those worried about only hair....lets not judge before its released. I do somewhat agree on the pricing issue though. With XSI:Essentials including all it does, paying $1k will be a deal breaker for many.

We will be announcing the pricing and shipping date for messiah studio very soon. For many people, the biggest new feature is Fur, which for a while now has been the number one requested feature. There are plenty of other new features, both for animating and rendering, so check back here for further announcements.

Ulven
11-28-2007, 01:50 AM
Thanks! I'm afraid the autorigger will not be bundled with messiah, we're third party developers (we were on the beta but not actually a part of pmg as it were). We're working on something new and very exciting as well though, but it's not quite ready to show everyone yet. :wip:

I'll tell you the reason I'm excited about the hair module is that I do a lot of character work. And where characters are concerned there are certain things you really need the render engine to do well. SSS, is one of them and, although I've made due without it so far (and I consider having saslite as being without a solution), Hair is another. Messiah3's new render engine is capable exactly where lightwave falls down. I still have lightwave and still use it to render from time to time (FPrime yay), but Messiah3 is actually a better engine for some things, and so, I use it for those.

Tama
11-28-2007, 02:01 AM
messiah's fur is looking pretty good from the few images I've seen so far. :)
I've been quite dissatisfied with Sasquatch and it's limitations including its plain fuggly look.

Anyway, now it's just a matter of what "soon" means...:scream:

shadowfork
11-28-2007, 02:03 AM
I agree with the pricing.

If it goes up I'd rather get the ANIMATE version... but it's not for sale anymore (but it's still featured on the products page :shrug: )

I hope they haven't discontinued it for those of us who's not interested with the renderer.

Now... just found this... Lux people are having a look with our Fur... some praises in their too for those of you who are avid fans of Messiah's upcoming fur...

http://forums.luxology.com/discussion/topic.aspx?id=19415&show=messiah%20fur

Leonardo Vega
11-28-2007, 02:45 AM
So I take it LW/Messiah users will be using Messiah for rendering?

Are most LW/Messiah users just modeling in LW and then animating/rendering in Messiah? It almost seems like Silo/Messiah might be a better option than LW/Messiah.

Do most ppl still use LW with Messiah?

Julez4001
11-28-2007, 02:56 AM
I use LW for rendering. Messiah for aniamting.

I hope aniamte is still an option if the price goes up or the renderer better have some bells and whistle beside fur.

Ulven
11-28-2007, 02:57 AM
I'm definately an old LWer and through that got to know messiah, but it's hard to say for a new user.

The traditional pipeline with messiah was: model in lightwave, animate in messiah, render in lightwave. With the introduction of new modelling tools like modo, silo, zbrush, mudbox, wings etc, and messiah coming up with new affordable rendering solutions like volume and hair++, using messiah as the specialised animation/rendering platform with your modelling tool of choice is a very modern workflow indeed.

Ulven
11-28-2007, 03:34 AM
Let me elaborate a little about why you'd want messiah3 to work the way it does based on the platform you're already using. (Some of this is generally known to people, some of this is second hand experience so if I'm completely and utterly wrong somewhere, feel free to tell me, some is a bit generalised like lightwave has saslite, but I don't find it's good enough as a hair solution, it has GI and SSS as well but it's super slow and not that great, especially in combination, a no go for animation usually).

1. Modo: You want character animation capabilities with integrated mdd support. Possibly an animation rendering platform with a hair solution. Your save format is native to messiah and you can make endomorphs. You want a solution for Hair in your rendering.
2. 3d studio max & Maya: You want a simpler/quicker expression/rigging platform, without loosing the power, and not having to make complicated arbitrary scripts for everything.
3. Lightwave: You want to animate characters properly. Your save format is native to messiah. You want to be able to rig properly. You want a solution for using GI, SSS and Hair in your rendering. You want soft shadows without being constrained to an area light or a shadow mapped spot. (why can't you have a raytraced spotlight with soft shadow anyway? and why can't you parent a bone to a null? questions, questions)
4. Silo, Mudbox, Zbrush & Wings: You want to rig, animate and render your characters and creations with a platform that lets you add displacement and hair easily, and doesn't cost an arm or a leg, or any other limb for that matter.
5. XSI: You want to retain the power, without needing the deep complexity.

Ulven
11-28-2007, 03:57 AM
Saslite:

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/6668/saslite2zc9.jpg


Messiah:

http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/8765/messiahmk1.jpg

alvin-cgi
11-28-2007, 07:35 AM
is M3 64bit?:)

Panikos
11-28-2007, 08:01 AM
Its not fair to blame Sasquatch for its weaknesses cause it came some years ago and for its time, it was ahead.

Ulven
11-28-2007, 08:17 AM
Well, that's one way of looking at it, but IT IS fair to use messiah now rather than waiting for sasquash to update, because worley and newtek still haven't dealt with those issues, they've had like 5 years or somesuch, and they are show-stoppers on fur in production I tell you that. Besides, age is not an excuse for bad design. Worley has a history of brilliant design, quite possibly he encountered some SDK problems when working on sas. But it was up to him and newtek to fix it, and they still haven't. That's bad. This works, this is good. Besides, did lightwave not have reflection, transparency, or shadows at the time worley made sas?

Sil3
11-28-2007, 01:02 PM
Ok Fur looks nice and it is great to have and all... but for those of use much more interested in the other aspect of an Animation Software:

The Animation Tools!

Whats new? Is it that hard to tell or only talk briefly about them?

- Do we have a more Standart Moving/Rotating/Scaling Gizmos? (Standart to me is something that works in this aspect just like in Maya, XSi and even LW... no more no less, identical)

- Can we make Corrective Morphs inside Messiah already?

- Link With in an easy way?

- Consolidated (everything in one place) Graph Editor?

So... any news on this or do we have to wait more months just to see a new Fur render pic with no more info whatsoever?

kvernon
11-28-2007, 04:13 PM
I'm still interested in those zombie keys (I hope they officially died). Also I wonder if the develop portion made it.

Yea tho, the fur looks awesomenessly cool! :)

Patiently waiting for the news,

Kelly

Buzzoff
11-29-2007, 01:09 AM
But... saslite doesn't support reflections, sss, gi, ummmm I dont think it's even got shadows!. How is that an option?

Because he can render it on his computer right now.

Julez4001
11-30-2007, 05:03 PM
Because he can render it on his computer right now.



PRICELESS.

Ulven
11-30-2007, 05:10 PM
Because he can render it on his computer right now.
Might be it's only strong point.

numberEleven
11-30-2007, 07:20 PM
Im not that great with it, but its very capable with someone who knows how to use it. Fur was quite a bit easier for me than long hair.

Last I checked, it does in fact have shadows. Saslite might not, never really looked at the difference. Yeah, but no reflections, youd have to fake those somehow.

The integrated solution here, enabeling shadows and transparency from hair and fur right out of the box, etc, will be very nice.

shadowfork
11-30-2007, 07:36 PM
Point is... I can getaway with saslite right now.

We all got here because of Messiah's power of animation.

The renderer is a good addition. But I usually render my work on Modo or Maxwell.
Tried Fryrender the other day and it's faster than Maxwell, so I'm thinking of adding it on my workflow.
Give us the goods on the animation front :bounce:

fwtep
12-01-2007, 05:40 AM
Point is... I can getaway with saslite right now.

We all got here because of Messiah's power of animation.

The renderer is a good addition. But I usually render my work on Modo or Maxwell.
Tried Fryrender the other day and it's faster than Maxwell, so I'm thinking of adding it on my workflow.
Give us the goods on the animation front :bounce:Just curious why you're willing to use every renderer except messiah's?

Tama
12-01-2007, 12:40 PM
Have there been any render improvements that can be discussed ahead of the 3.0 release?

shadowfork
12-01-2007, 05:44 PM
Just curious why you're willing to use every renderer except messiah's?

Messiah's not too bad.

It's just that lately, for speed, I rely heavily on modo.

For realistic renders, I need physically correct, unbiased rendering engines like Maxwell & Fryrender.

Most of the times I don't get the results I want from Messiahs render. Either there's artifacts, noises, light leaks, etc.

Gave messiah another go last night. here's the comparison:

http://agimatstudio.com/z_trash/kitchen_fry.jpg

http://agimatstudio.com/z_trash/kitchen_messiah.jpg

... after 4 hrs.

not too bad after all :)

TylerAZambori
12-01-2007, 05:51 PM
why is the one rendered with messiah darker?

shadowfork
12-01-2007, 07:08 PM
why is the one rendered with messiah darker?

Hmmm... On my monitor the scene looks ok but when i saw it again on my iphone it does appear darker. I'll see what i can do when i get back.

Will ver. 3 have z-depth at least? Not a work around, please :-)

palpal
12-01-2007, 07:11 PM
What where what? 4hours on both or on the messiah and less on the fry or other way around?

But 4 hours, hmmm... that is long!

Yours PAL :bounce:

shadowfork
12-01-2007, 08:43 PM
What where what? 4hours on both or on the messiah and less on the fry or other way around?

But 4 hours, hmmm... that is long!

Yours PAL :bounce:

I was in a rush when I posted. These were rendered on my vaio laptop with only dual cores. I hope to get a quadcore system soon to eliminate the long render times.

Back on topic... Messiah was giving a lot of noise so I cranked up the gi samples to get a clean render. It took 4 hrs. to render the scene.

Fry was good enough in less than 2 hrs.
I also like the way the light lay down on the cabinets. Couldn't get d same effect on messiah.

Nevertheless, messiah is okay. I know I can get better results with workarounds but this is why we use other renderers, they're straightforward and get predictable results.

shadowfork
12-01-2007, 11:29 PM
http://agimatstudio.com/z_trash/room_fry.jpg


http://agimatstudio.com/z_trash/room_messiah.jpg



I have no idea why the blending of the floor and the wall looks like that in messiah.

The fry was rendered @ 800 x 600 px while the messiah was 640 x 480 px.

I tried to setup the scene as parallel as i can between programs.

But as you can see light was well distributed on the fry one. There was barely any setup required there. I just make the lights as the emitters and hit render.

Just shows why I prefer to render outside of messiah.

But that's just me :thumbsup:


... at the end of the day, for me messiah is the best character animation program with a decent renderer.

stooch
12-02-2007, 12:51 AM
yeah those renders really show where messiah sits render wise.

TylerAZambori
12-02-2007, 12:52 AM
The Fryrender one looks much better.

stooch
12-02-2007, 01:04 AM
The Fryrender one looks much better.
http://imatt.us/mt/archives/orly.JPG

thanks for the observation though.

TylerAZambori
12-02-2007, 02:42 AM
hehe. :)

That's cute is that a real owl?

shadowfork
12-02-2007, 04:46 AM
By the way... I just noticed the lamps that were rendered in messiah... it rendered like a regular object on the reflection. It has light emissions turned on.

And oh, just a shout out... thanks to Ulven! ;)

Ulven
12-02-2007, 04:48 AM
Well, I'm not much of an arch viz kid, but I like a challenge :)
I tried matching the elements from your scene so it would work out about the same.

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/3377/redroomeu2.jpg

This was rendered in 3. Arguably one could achieve better results if one were more aligned to arch viz than rigging and animation, or wanted to go all out on render times (16 minutes is really bloody long for me to wait :) )

shadowfork
12-02-2007, 05:25 AM
Well, I'm not much of an arch viz kid, but I like a challenge :)
I tried matching the elements from your scene so it would work out about the same.



This was rendered in 3. Arguably one could achieve better results if one were more aligned to arch viz than rigging and animation, or wanted to go all out on render times (16 minutes is really bloody long for me to wait :) )

Wohohoho!!! Nicely done.

Can't wait to get my hands on ver 3! :applause:

shadowfork
12-02-2007, 05:38 AM
Care to share your recipe?

how long was the setup?

what stuff did you turn on?

who killed jfk?

Ulven
12-02-2007, 05:53 AM
Care to share your recipe?

how long was the setup?

what stuff did you turn on?

who killed jfk?

:) I can post it as an example scene when 3 gets out in the wiki or something like that.
The setup was probably about an hour or two because I didn't really know what I was doing when I started. One of the things I turned on was a bit of soft reflection in the wall to get some object shaped highlights. (GI doesn't "do" specularity.)
JFK is not dead, it was a fake death so he could live happily with the boxbots and the monkey men on the planet Ugwich (pronounced Ugh'kqwitch).

Ulven
12-02-2007, 06:40 AM
I browsed the web a little and found a free example scene for lightwave that I could port quite quicly to messiah.

Here's the render:

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/2555/archvizww2.jpg

I actually sort of enjoyed it too, even though it had nothing to do with characters.

http://www.except.nl was the nice people who had the example scene.

shadowfork
12-02-2007, 07:04 AM
http://agimatstudio.com/z_trash/room_modo.jpg


... did I mention I use modo for fast renderings? :D

1 minute and 11 seconds.

shadowfork
12-02-2007, 08:33 AM
http://agimatstudio.com/z_trash/gallery_modo.jpg

5.8 mins @ 800 x 600 px

... I kept all objects that came with the file

Nichod
12-02-2007, 11:04 AM
http://agimatstudio.com/z_trash/gallery_modo.jpg

5.8 mins @ 800 x 600 px

... I kept all objects that came with the file






Looks splotchy.

Ulven
12-02-2007, 12:10 PM
Nice :)

I've only tried the modo demo, but I think modo + messiah sounds like a really good workflow, I think they're pretty good companions. One of the (small, but useful) benefits of having the option to render in messiah is that you can render straight from an mpj, which contains everything you need and is a much more compressed format than having lots of large mdd, object, image and scene files sent through a network. I think this update makes it a perfectly viable option to render in messiah with several nice bells and whistles like hair and so forth.

Regarding the images, I think the second one looks a bit splotchy as well like nichod mentioned, but looking at mine again now, I can see quite a few mistakes I've made in, among other things, the accuracy settings as well which is something that will make the render times go up a bit. Starting at 7 minutes though I think I can live with increasing them a bit. The image maps behaves a bit differently in messiah so I think I have to rejig them a bit to get it to look right. Oh, could you blur the reflection in the floor in the second one a bit more? I want to see how modo handles that.

Ulven
12-02-2007, 08:01 PM
http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/7638/archviz2sl1.jpg

This one is quite a bit longer, but this is animation settings as well, I.E. there should be no flicker. Also increased the amount of soft reflection a bit which might have helped kill the render times a bit, but still acceptable times for animation for me.

Mike RB
12-02-2007, 08:58 PM
Here's a 10min modo render of that same scene, and the modo file so you can check the times on your machine. (It uses the same images that the download you posted above does..)

http://www.elementvfx.com/WebDemo/gallery_room.lxo
http://www.elementvfx.com/WebDemo/gallery_modo_10m.jpg

shadowfork
12-02-2007, 09:18 PM
Here's a 10min modo render of that same scene, and the modo file so you can check the times on your machine. (It uses the same images that the download you posted above does..)

http://www.elementvfx.com/WebDemo/gallery_room.lxo



Holy caustics, Batman!!!

W:eek:W. Simply beautiful.


*downloading the scene

Ulven
12-02-2007, 09:33 PM
Here's a 10min modo render of that same scene, and the modo file so you can check the times on your machine. (It uses the same images that the download you posted above does..)


Nice one Mike :)

Mike RB
12-02-2007, 09:38 PM
Caustics? modo dosen't have caustics as a feature yet.

shadowfork
12-02-2007, 09:47 PM
Caustics? modo dosen't have caustics as a feature yet.

doh! :applause:

oh well, it looked like your render had it.

I like the way the glass material bounced on the wall.

Ulven: good job on the second render. I like the soft reflections you had on the floor.

palpal
12-02-2007, 11:12 PM
Who am I to post this But the truth is that there is not a render of final frame quiality like modo is! It is simply the absolutely best when used propper. Show me a scene that renders faster in the sme quality as modo and that would be incredible to me! On my 8core machine it really beats all other.. LW like an houro the same in minutes on modo!

Yours PAL

shadowfork
12-02-2007, 11:25 PM
Who am I to post this But the truth is that there is not a render of final frame quiality like modo is! It is simply the absolutely best when used propper. Show me a scene that renders faster in the sme quality as modo and that would be incredible to me! On my 8core machine it really beats all other.. LW like an houro the same in minutes on modo!

Yours PAL

I totally agree.

But we're here to objectively see how Messiah's v3 renderer hold up against present renderes in the market. So far the effort's been ok.

Though personally I'm still not that convinced yet to use messiah's renderer for my commercial work. I don't get the results I want with minimal setup.

kursad_pileksuz
12-02-2007, 11:35 PM
There is no point of comparing Fry or Modo to Messiah renderer. Messiah is a robust animation tool with a nice renderer that has alot of possibilities. If you are into only indoor architectural rendering Messiah is not your tool anyways. As one of the longest time Modo users out there I can tell you that Messiah and Modo compliments eachother very nicely. I use both of the tools everyday currently (they are generally open at the same time) and speed of our current production pipeline is not beatable.

Modo does not offer any character animation or special fx tools at this point. And Fry is only a renderer. I personally think that it is fruitless to compare all these renderers out there. They are not in the same category.

There has been alot of improvements to Messiah render lately and I am sure there will be more in the future. And we are yet to see serious examples from some of the people who complain about Messiah`s features or lack of features constantly. In reality Messiah is used in productions with very good results as far as rendering and animation goes.

shadowfork
12-03-2007, 01:26 AM
There is no point of comparing Fry or Modo to Messiah renderer...

... I personally think that it is fruitless to compare all these renderers out there. They are not in the same category.


I wouldn't call it utterly pointless.

First of all, we're discussing the SAME category here... RENDERING.

What's wrong with testing messiah's rendering capabilities with the others? You come to the arena so don't expect not to get a few jabs here and there.

The comparisons are about speed/quality.

Pointless? I don't think so.

Most of us here use messiah in conjunction with other softwares.

kursad_pileksuz
12-03-2007, 02:35 AM
well, Fry is using different technology. They are not in the same category. And I doubt Messiah will use similar algorithms soon. So yes it is pointless to discuss fry vs messiah. This is like comparing a sedan car to 2 seat. They are created for different purposes at least so far.

As far as Modo goes, Modo does not have character anim tools or more complex animation tools. If you like Modo`s renderer you can export .mdds from messiah and use them in modo easily because modo has .mdd deformer that came with v3 (It works pretty well).

shadowfork
12-03-2007, 03:13 AM
well, Fry is using different technology. They are not in the same category. And I doubt Messiah will use similar algorithms soon. So yes it is pointless to discuss fry vs messiah. This is like comparing a sedan car to 2 seat. They are created for different purposes at least so far.

As far as Modo goes, Modo does not have character anim tools or more complex animation tools. If you like Modo`s renderer you can export .mdds from messiah and use them in modo easily because modo has .mdd deformer that came with v3 (It works pretty well).

Ok. First, your input is the one that's pointless. If u read the 2nd page of this thread, I did mention i render my messiah work @ modo. Been using the mdd deformer since 301 came out.

Messiah is 90% of d time exported to other programs. Everyone knows that.

Second, why cant i mention fry? Does modo have the same technology as messiah? I think not.

It's not the tech my cg brother, it's the final render that matters. Everyone who starts a renderer will make their own technology.

Nichod
12-03-2007, 03:36 AM
Here's a 10min modo render of that same scene, and the modo file so you can check the times on your machine. (It uses the same images that the download you posted above does..)

http://www.elementvfx.com/WebDemo/gallery_room.lxo
http://www.elementvfx.com/WebDemo/gallery_modo_10m.jpg

Of the Modo examples pitted against Messiah this is the best of them. Really I'm not impressed with the other demonstrations of FRY and Modo. But I do still see some issues in the above render. The ceiling and wall grout for instance. This could be a matter of simply tweaking a few settings or could be compression causing the aliasing. I'm sure Mike could improve things and the render time will likely remain near its current.

In Ulven's renders the main issue I see is the shadows. Perhaps its just he made the shadows too soft. I like the color bounce in the Messiah renders.

Really comparing rendering engines is something I question. Each engine uses different technologies and techniques to achieve the final look. And I see each rendering engine as a different medium and its somewhat like comparing oil and acrylic paints. While you can achieve similar looks each is intended for a specific use and style. However I do agree its worthwhile to see how well Messiah compares. If nothing else its an interesting exercise. From the above examples we can see that Messiah could indeed be used for archvis. Not to mention you could easily and quickly populate your scenes with animated figures. Smoke rising from chimneys and clouds moving through the sky. And throw in some curtains and flags flowing in a breeze.

shadowfork
12-03-2007, 04:20 AM
Really I'm not impressed with the other demonstrations of FRY...



My knowledge of FRY is just 2 days old. I just tested it out as a friend recommended it.

I'm just showing that even with a new program, minimal setup, I can get the look that I want without workarounds.

And the tests I performed were all FULL G.I., no directional or other lights aided the renders. They all used only emitters.

Cheers :beer:

Ulven
12-03-2007, 06:22 AM
I don't think it's pointless to compare renderers, I personally use several.
I fully appreciate Modo's strong rendering capabilities. But that, to me, does not exclude messiah as a contender, and nor should it to you. What I'm trying to show is rather that messiah's renderer has come a long way and now boasts features and quality of a very high standard. With it's new capabilities it makes it a very viable option for production, partly because it was used in a production through the beta phase which placed demands on it the likes of which it hadn't had before. Many growing pains and bugs were ironed out and new features were added swiftly by a small but extremely capable team.
I think it's a significant development that is well worth noting, and adding to your toolkit, as well as worth the upgrade for old users. And I think that the renders I've shown and will show later much more shows where messiah sits render wise in this new version than the v2 ones shown before. I'm not saying 'unbeatable', I'm saying 'dang good'. Messiah is now a tool that is a really strong animation tool AND a really strong rendering platform. That's cool.

shadowfork
12-03-2007, 06:36 AM
If I don't have to move to another package for a great render that's working for me, well and good.

For a long time now I've been usin messiah's render on personal work like this: <old thread> (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=92&t=503790&highlight=transformer)

But due to tight deadlines and tons of work, we relied more on modo for speed and messiah on our character animations.

I'm expecting to be blown away by the next upgrade.

Can't wait to put it on torture test :twisted:

kursad_pileksuz
12-03-2007, 09:04 PM
I doubt so. I do not see any rendered character animation on ther web site. Would you mind pointing out some rendered character animation examples done with Fry?

We are rendering here 10k images here with gigabytes of data, for example we just rendered a scene that was 11 gb (no truncation). In the next version users will be able to render these kinds of big scenes as well. In a real production environment most important thing is ability to render rather than having all sexy features with massive amount of crashes due tue memory leaks or memory allocation issues.


Messiah has all the efficient tools to create good renders if you know how to use it. I personally would like to see some improvements to gi . Having irradiance caching would definetely help , baking gi data would help speed and flexibility wise.

If you want to compare to Modo that is fine. But stop comparing to Fry please.









Ok. First, your input is the one that's pointless. If u read the 2nd page of this thread, I did mention i render my messiah work @ modo. Been using the mdd deformer since 301 came out.

Messiah is 90% of d time exported to other programs. Everyone knows that.

Second, why cant i mention fry? Does modo have the same technology as messiah? I think not.

It's not the tech my cg brother, it's the final render that matters. Everyone who starts a renderer will make their own technology.

shadowfork
12-03-2007, 09:27 PM
If you want to compare to Modo that is fine. But stop comparing to Fry please.

I didn't tell you to use FRY. I'm not suggesting we all use FRY.

My point was I just saw the program a couple of days ago and it gave me fantastic renders to my liking with minimal setup. No GI setups, antialiasing, etc. It simple and it worked.

Maxwell and Fry are physically-based render engines... for now they are only ideal for still images but can handle animation as well.

I deform my characters in messiah and render it to these apps.

Why are you so intimidated with fry? LOL :D

I could've mentioned other physically based engines, but you're funny as hell.

shadowfork
12-03-2007, 09:34 PM
The topic right now is how the new version can mimic/surpass other renderers out there.

It's not X software is better than Z software. Grow up man. :cool:

Tama
12-03-2007, 11:14 PM
Do the other renderers like Maxwell, Fry and Modo have some form of motion blur?
:shrug:

Mike RB
12-03-2007, 11:52 PM
Not sure about Maxwell and Fry but modo does. But I'd be shocked if they didn't support motionblur considering thier cameras are supposedly modelled off of the real thing.

fwtep
12-04-2007, 12:08 AM
Here's what I think is funny (or quirky or interesting)... Most people on this thread have said that they hope we concentrate on the animation side instead of the rendering side, but then they turn around and talk about how they're using X renderer because they like it better than messiah's for X reason. Does that not seem rather strange? Wouldn't it make sense (since you consider it to be great for character animation) to make the renderer capable enough that you can just render in messiah instead of the extra steps, money, and effort it takes to use a third-party renderer?

I mean, sure, more animation tools would be great, but doesn't it make sense to bring the rest of the package up to the level of the animation tools? (Personally I like the renderer already but I'm referring to the people who think it's lacking.)

Because here's how this comes off sounding to me:
"I don't use the renderer because it doesn't have the features that I need, and I hope they don't spend the time to address those issues."

Fred

shadowfork
12-04-2007, 12:45 AM
Most people on this thread have said that they hope we concentrate on the animation side instead of the rendering side, but then they turn around and talk about how they're using X renderer because they like it better than messiah's for X reason. Does that not seem rather strange?

Turn around to what? I've stood my ground.
We just continued to explain why on earth we pair messiah and how it faired with other renderers. Why is that so strange?


I mean, sure, more animation tools would be great, but doesn't it make sense to bring the rest of the package up to the level of the animation tools?

Believe me, I've been trying to get a good one since ver. 2 but I'm just not really satisfied. Maybe v3 will change that but I'll never know til I get my hands on it. I always embrace new technology.


Because here's how this comes off sounding to me:
&quot;I don't use the renderer because it doesn't have the features that I need, and I hope they don't spend the time to address those issues.&quot;


I don't mean to sound like that.

It's more like ' let's make it top notch before Luxology brings out their killer animation app! '

Thanks Fred :wavey:

fwtep
12-04-2007, 12:50 AM
Turn around to what? I've stood my ground.Sorry, I didn't realize you were "most people." :D

Fred

TylerAZambori
12-04-2007, 12:54 AM
Here's what I think is funny (or quirky or interesting)... Most people on this thread have said that they hope we concentrate on the animation side instead of the rendering side, but then they turn around and talk about how they're using X renderer because they like it better than messiah's for X reason. Does that not seem rather strange?

I didn't do that....wasn't me. I' not expert enough to make such a statement.
I hope it turns out great with both, but I also have two other animation
programs to learn. I'm torn....

Wouldn't it make sense (since you consider it to be great for character animation) to make the renderer capable enough that you can just render in messiah instead of the extra steps, money, and effort it takes to use a third-party renderer?

I do (I mean I think so) , since I sold off LW and messiah is now the only one I have with unlimited render nodes. not that I think I will ever have unlimited render nodes, but still....


I mean, sure, more animation tools would be great, but doesn't it make sense to bring the rest of the package up to the level of the animation tools? (Personally I like the renderer already but I'm referring to the people who think it's lacking.)

Because here's how this comes off sounding to me:
"I don't use the renderer because it doesn't have the features that I need, and I hope they don't spend the time to address those issues."

Fred

er......how about: it would be great if they upgrade it on both aspects?

shadowfork
12-04-2007, 01:04 AM
Sorry, I didn't realize you were "most people." :D

Fred

http://stickandballguy.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/homer-doh.jpg

He got me! LOL

stooch
12-04-2007, 02:39 AM
so are you guys close to annoucning the features for 3.0? i mean it just doesnt make sense to wait till the last minute to tell people what to expect, unless you guys are still too far away from a release.

alvin-cgi
12-04-2007, 05:59 AM
yes, some news about 3.0 wont hurt!!:scream:

THUR
12-04-2007, 07:59 AM
bring the rest of the package up to the level of the animation tools?

Hopefully the current level of the animation won't stop growing either :)

THUR

Ulven
12-04-2007, 08:37 AM
Most people on this thread have said that they hope we concentrate on the animation side instead of the rendering side, but then they turn around and talk about how they're using X renderer because they like it better than messiah's for X reason. Does that not seem rather strange? Wouldn't it make sense (since you consider it to be great for character animation) to make the renderer capable enough that you can just render in messiah instead of the extra steps, money, and effort it takes to use a third-party renderer?


I don't think that this thread has been particularly negative towards messiah's renderer. Some of the inputs, before I showed examples of it at work, were quite dismissive, but I think after that people were just comparing the quality to modo etc. I think modo has a nice renderer so I think that's kind of a compliment. People are just keen to see how it fares. Maybe my outlook on life is a bit optimistic :)

palpal
12-04-2007, 11:04 AM
Ulven is right, it is not a negative thread on messiah... and yes it went abit bad becuse people are interested. But again, take me as an example... I post some replies here and there becuse I want to see new things or understand and so on. But in this case I think some of us went abit overboard. The fact is as follows:

There are some super renders out on the market. There are som people using the tools in super ways out in the same market. There are even some creating effects on rendered frames on the market that are beyond all reason. In the market there are alot of talentet creators, and if they use this or that pipeline, most of the talented creators use their pipeline to their advantages, it is their secret weapon in a way. So it does not really have to be a disqussion about micre polly shadow filtering radiosity worst case scenario all the time. Messiah, Lightwave, Maya, MAX, XSI, Houdini, Cinema, Vue and maybe even the old Real3d have all proven that they can be a part of a pipeline where fantastic art or motion or images come out from. To compare scenes stright out from the same base is silly to me... in fprime I know a trick or two to speedup render, I would use them with fprime, but not with modo or LW render if you know... it is about knowing the tools!

The truth is: For alot of people MESSIAH will fit nicely into a given pipeline, even it is only messiah, or messiah together with other software!

Rock on... Let us just give all good thoughts to Messiah developers, time is your friend, and when released there will be some lovin` it and some hatin`it - But still it is released and I for one am so looking forward to it! And with Ulvens good posts and his autorigger it will be super, it is super today also!

Yours PAL :bounce:

palpal
12-04-2007, 11:04 AM
duplication post

Yours PAL :bounce:

palpal
12-04-2007, 11:07 AM
duplication post

Yours PAL :bounce:

StOuen
12-04-2007, 12:46 PM
For what its worth.., I only intend to use the animation capabilities of Messiah.

Ulven
12-04-2007, 01:16 PM
For what its worth.., I only intend to use the animation capabilities of Messiah.
That's fine too :) It's still an excellent animation program even though it has an extremely upgraded renderer.
Messiah for animation: Cool
Messiah for animation and rendering: Also Cool

peksi
12-04-2007, 03:00 PM
in fprime I know a trick or two to speedup render, I would use them with fprime, but not with modo or LW render if you know... it is about knowing the tools!


And that is why some ppl aren't that interested in improvements to messiah renderer, they are happy with their current tool for rendering because they can use it to create frames they want.

At the moment I am not good with any renderer, I've used 3dmax default and mray (oh and in some distant past played around with bmrt). That is simply because I haven't had to render anything. But if I were to pick a renderer, I would consider Modo or Messiah... Or to be true RenderNerd(tm) I would go with some opensource Renderman compliant renderer :D

But that being said, I am most interested in animation tools, that is just because I can pick any renderer I want at this point.

Julez4001
12-04-2007, 04:18 PM
The autorigger was a great addition to messiah toolset for animation but I am all for better, quicker, intuititive aniamtion tools. The pose system and NLA in messiah needs a good waxing for the latent bugs but also a "better WAY to do it" is usually what messiah is known for in the past. The Renderer has been sucking all of the animation development in my book.

PuppetMaster is a tool for weighting but has had zero support since its inclusion at 1.0.
Powerful but crappy at this point. it needs to be easier and rock solid. It still have bugs that still in it today.

A faux lattice tool for things like cartoony eyes and nonlinear morphing.

I just think its harder o develop for a renderer than it is for animation, thats all.
The same effort could have gave us double the animation tools in my book, again. :)


---------------------



No negative thread on Messiah but that announcement went out online 9 days ago.
Ppl are jitterery.

palpal
12-04-2007, 05:24 PM
peksi: Think you understood me wrong there... we are interested because all engines have their power and weakness... but used propper today, they all will render out marvelous frames... I am more than sure. So if messiah boosts even better rendering than in the past, thet is really good news... maybe we do not have to mdd or pointoven bake the things and read large files over network anymore! Hmmm.. a very nice thought!

What I think is that me included, we the users always seem to know where developers should put the efforts! he he... why? Because we know what we want to use? Not always... we go down every road to disquss new renders, new weights, new model new this and that...

In my mind messiah is a animation tool, and I think it in version 3 will get better and that is what I hope for. Time is my friend, so when some more time has gone by it all fits perfectly together... Wish for the best, Fori: May the creative power and inspirational gods be with you, we know you will give us one hell of an update... Lookin`forward to it!

If messiah market propper this time around there will be alot more new users than you might imaginge, because all these zbrushers and mudboxers want an autorigger with animation tools and renbdering for the us dollar299(you should use Euro to get a more steady and predictable income in the future PMG, just a tip!)... beleive me, those users want something that is fun, easy and powerful... And isn`t that just what messiah is?

Yours PAL :bounce:

TylerAZambori
12-04-2007, 05:57 PM
Here's what I think is funny (or quirky or interesting)... Most people on this thread have said that they hope we concentrate on the animation side instead of the rendering side, but then they turn around and talk about how they're using X renderer because they like it better than messiah's for X reason. Does that not seem rather strange? Wouldn't it make sense (since you consider it to be great for character animation) to make the renderer capable enough that you can just render in messiah instead of the extra steps, money, and effort it takes to use a third-party renderer?

I mean, sure, more animation tools would be great, but doesn't it make sense to bring the rest of the package up to the level of the animation tools? (Personally I like the renderer already but I'm referring to the people who think it's lacking.)



The thing is, thais makes it sound like the renderer is the only thing that got updated, but
the pmg web site said:

There are plenty of other new features, both for animating and rendering, so check back here for further announcements.

peksi
12-04-2007, 06:03 PM
peksi: Think you understood me wrong there...

Well, I think I didn't understand you wrong. That was my opinion why some people prefer other renderers, just because they know them inside out :)

I think this is getting off-topic soonish, so...

What will be in version 3.5 and when it is coming?
(please use common sense before answering to that...)

shadowfork
12-04-2007, 06:39 PM
I think it all goes down to one simple question...

'WHAT ELSE?!'

Fur is already out of the bag... give us something more to drool on. http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/38.gif

Anything revolutionary on the animation side?

palpal
12-04-2007, 07:00 PM
In my book it is abit like this: Messiah is a good animation tool, better than alot in fact. There must be some new stuff in there but also remember that this is one super deal for the price tag of 299 us dollar! I meen, XSI that is alot more than messiah is at 10 times the price for the cut down version(that still is more than messiah, but 10 times?). If one want a easy animation tool messiah is fun and good. example... what is LW for us today? It is realy easy setup to get a good render, but for animation? I just do not want to rotate logos anymore. There must be some value in messiah if one sees it abit like this. I think messiah is super nice, and my guess again is that the next release will be super!

I also know that if they start answering questions on forum like this they will have a great deal of work with that, maybe it is time to let them work some more and put some trust in them... if not move on!

Yours PAL :bounce:

palpal
12-04-2007, 07:03 PM
In my book it is abit like this: Messiah is a good animation tool, better than alot in fact. There must be some new stuff in there but also remember that this is one super deal for the price tag of 299 us dollar! I meen, XSI that is alot more than messiah is at 10 times the price for the cut down version(that still is more than messiah, but 10 times?). If one want a easy animation tool messiah is fun and good. example... what is LW for us today? It is realy easy setup to get a good render, but for animation? I just do not want to rotate logos anymore. There must be some value in messiah if one sees it abit like this. I think messiah is super nice, and my guess again is that the next release will be super!

I also know that if they start answering questions on forum like this they will have a great deal of work with that, maybe it is time to let them work some more and put some trust in them... if not move on!

Yours PAL :bounce:

shadowfork
12-04-2007, 07:42 PM
I meen, XSI that is alot more than messiah is at 10 times the price for the cut down version(that still is more than messiah, but 10 times?).

Did you mean XSI foundation? It's only $495. I'm not good @ math but I know that's not 10 times of messiah.

here's a link (http://www.softimage.com/products/foundation/)



Cheers :beer:

palpal
12-04-2007, 07:48 PM
Your link is fine, but is this not the current one?:

http://www.softimage.com/products/xsi/whats_new.aspx?utm_source=CGSociety&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=xsi+6.5+now+avail

I do not know how to read but to me it states that the SOFTIMAGE|XSI Essentials is now at $2995* (USMSRP) and then it includes: XSI Hair and Fur and Syflex Cloth

That is abit more than messiah both in power and system, but about the 10 times of the price of messiah isn`t it? but atleast the new messiah will have fur(and I guess hair too)... so missing is cloth I guess? But just maybe that is better too in the next release? :eek:

Fori GO, GO Fori!

Yours PAL :bounce:

shadowfork
12-04-2007, 07:55 PM
It is current.

It says: FREE 30-Day Trial Try out XSI 6.5 FREE for 30 days.

Essentials is the 'big boy' version where you get hair/dynamics/syflex cloth etc.
(although foundation has it's own cloth system - good enough to play with - at least easier to manage than lightwave's)

shadowfork
12-04-2007, 07:57 PM
oops --- double post ---

TylerAZambori
12-04-2007, 07:58 PM
Your link is fine, but is this not the current one?:

http://www.softimage.com/products/xsi/whats_new.aspx?utm_source=CGSociety&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=xsi+6.5+now+avail

I do not know how to read but to me it states that the SOFTIMAGE|XSI Essentials is now at $2995* (USMSRP) and then it includes: XSI Hair and Fur and Syflex Cloth

That is abit more than messiah both in power and system, but about the 10 times of the price of messiah isn`t it? but atleast the new messiah will have fur(and I guess hair too)... so missing is cloth I guess? But just maybe that is better too in the next release? :eek:

Yours PAL :bounce:

That is not the cut-down version. The cut-down version is XSI foundation, and it costs
$495, and the hair plug in called bhairy is a bout $80.

PS: please do not go to google and type in bhairy, you will be sorry.
Unless you like that kind of stuff, but it sure won't have anytihng
to do with cgi.

shadowfork
12-04-2007, 08:01 PM
Fori GO, GO Fori!



lol - I can't help but imagine forest gump...

RUN FORI, RUN!

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/24.gif

palpal
12-04-2007, 08:09 PM
....I guess I compared the new messiah version with the XSI that includes hair in the box like messiah will do! That is not a plugin of messiah it is built in and workin` to me that is maybe goodbye SAS from worley... I just thought that I should compare versions that do match in features, and with the essentials messiah do lack the cloth(world class*) of XSI, but not the fur hair! Since they make it their flagship and messiah make their new flagship it should be the versions compared, right? And then again, if it proves that the new renderer of messiah could be set up easy like in FPrime, well I can not see that messiah new version should not be compared here... guess the cost of nodes of essentials to messiah! My best, and I meen best guess is that messiah will be one hell of a deal if they do not alter their price too much! And especial for new users wanting to animate end render... guess this talented artist in zbrush wants to animete his marvelous artwork, messiah will be there at a reasonable starting price instead of a very expencive one! In my mind that is a good deal. I have urged artists to start with messiah before, look at ulven? I bought him messiah to get him workin` propper... what is he? Just an animator and a rigger I guess, but a damn fine one... and man he has got messiah for one year and two months... thet is a fun application proven right there! Life is fun, and messiah is also alot of fun, and best things in life is not that expencive!

And yes: RUN FORI, RUN! Run at the finish line, not go off-track, folow your plan!

Yours PAL :bounce:

shadowfork
12-04-2007, 08:17 PM
....I guess I compared the new messiah version with the XSI that includes hair in the box like messiah will do! That is not a plugin of messiah it is built in and workin` to me that is maybe goodbye SAS from worley... I just thought that I should compare versions that do match in features, and with the essentials messiah do lack the cloth(world class*) of XSI, but not the fur hair! Since they make it their flagship and messiah make their new flagship it should be the versions compared, right? And then again, if it proves that the new renderer of messiah could be set up easy like in FPrime, well I can not see that messiah new version should not be compared here... guess the cost of nodes of essentials to messiah! My best, and I meen best guess is that messiah will be one hell of a deal if they do not alter their price too much!


Well XSI is a complete package... modelling, animation, dynamics, post fx, etc.
That's why the price is up like that.

We'll see Messiah's fur... but do take note that XSI's hair/fur dynamics is pretty complex (used in star wars, etc.)

Right now it's too early to compare v3 with xsi's fur. Will messiah have the capability of long hair like essential does? and would it react to the environment (gravity, collission, etc.)

We'll see. We can only speculate for now.

shadowfork
12-04-2007, 08:36 PM
--- grrrrrrr... what's up with this site? keeps double posting ---

Ulven
12-04-2007, 08:44 PM
wow. 127 views and nothing in 10 hours.

Now look what you've gone and done, 4,151 views, 102 replies. :)

My Fault
12-04-2007, 08:50 PM
What were we talking about again? :D

I stand on the side that thinks too much time has been spent on the renderer and not enough on keeping the animation tools at the top of their game (and the biggest ball drop has been solid documentation, but I have long since given up on that chestnut). Still I definitely think the renderer has come a long way and I know I am glad that Fori has done such a fantastic job on it. Seriously, he is like a one man programming army.

I think it is unrealistic to compare messiahs new hair to XSI's when you look at how long they have each been developed. Give it time though. I would bet that once 3.0 is out and more people are beating on it, the gap will get closer and closer.

TylerAZambori
12-04-2007, 09:15 PM
What were we talking about again? :D

I stand on the side that thinks too much time has been spent on the renderer and not enough on keeping the animation tools at the top of their game (and the biggest ball drop has been solid documentation, but I have long since given up on that chestnut). Still I definitely think the renderer has come a long way and I know I am glad that Fori has done such a fantastic job on it. Seriously, he is like a one man programming army.

I think it is unrealistic to compare messiahs new hair to XSI's when you look at how long they have each been developed. Give it time though. I would bet that once 3.0 is out and more people are beating on it, the gap will get closer and closer.

Me, I'll be comparing it to bhairy rather than XSi's built in one, er, eventually.
It was my first experience with installing aplugin, and it couldn't be easier, and
it looks and acts just like another xsi property page. Other than that I can;t
comment yet.

I already read everything everybody has to say about xsi vs. messiah, and at this
point I just have to add my own feel for it into the mix. I'll get there eventually.
I still can't install messiah on this microwave, but that's ok I' mgetting close
to getting a new one.

I hope both animation and rendering gets improved.

shadowfork
12-04-2007, 11:15 PM
I've always thought Messiah would make Motionbuilder run for it's money.

:D

palpal
12-04-2007, 11:24 PM
Hope your really kiding here. Messiah is at 299 us dollars man. If one thinks that it is wrong! Messiah is a solid tool that is great for value! And even better than its value, thet is why this disqussion in the first place!

Yours PAL :bounce:

shadowfork
12-04-2007, 11:44 PM
I was talking about it as a ANIMATION TOOL.

In my opinion, Messiah's counterpart is Motionbuilder, not XSI, Modo, Fry, Vray, Mray.

Easy with the caffeine man :D

calilifestyle
12-04-2007, 11:49 PM
Hope your really kiding here. Messiah is at 299 us dollars man. If one thinks that it is wrong! Messiah is a solid tool that is great for value! And even better than its value, thet is why this disqussion in the first place!

Yours PAL :bounce:

yeah 299 now.. they haven't announced what the new price will be. For any of the versions. so they have what 2 versions one for 995 and one for 299.. what kind of price hike will there be then and lets say does get bumped up something close to xssi foundation and essentials then what. I guess i would like to see whats new on the rigging/CA side.
But since no is talking we can only guess that not much has been done on that part. since Ulven is a beta test and knows what is in store for version 3. I mean he went ahead and released a pug/rigging system for it, he of all ppl would know he has nothing to lose then, right. think about it would you develop something known that it might be worthless with the next version. He already said he has some great thing in store for it ,ummm sounds like a hint lol... but the renders look great

calilifestyle
12-04-2007, 11:54 PM
Hope your really kiding here. Messiah is at 299 us dollars man. If one thinks that it is wrong! Messiah is a solid tool that is great for value! And even better than its value, thet is why this disqussion in the first place!

Yours PAL :bounce:

yeah 299 now.. they haven't announced what the new price will be. For any of the versions. so they have what 2 versions one for 995 and one for 299.. what kind of price hike will there be then and lets say does get bumped up something close to xssi foundation and essentials then what. I guess i would like to see whats new on the rigging/CA side.
But since no is talking we can only guess that not much has been done on that part. since Ulven is a beta test and knows what is in store for version 3. I mean he went ahead and released a pug/rigging system for it, he of all ppl would know he has nothing to lose then, right. think about it would you develop something known that it might be worthless with the next version. He already said he has some great thing in store for it ,ummm sounds like a hint lol... but the renders look great:)

palpal
12-05-2007, 12:17 AM
...my only point is that messiah is abse of animation, and if there will be even better rendering accross nodes and with less price than others it will fit in just fine, and with more animation power it will really be splendid... I regard the tool as a good one today, and I guess it will be even better soon...

GO GO!

Yours PAL :bounce:

PS: caffeine does not help on a gfool like me... I am just created that way! Could be animated in messiah!

shadowfork
12-05-2007, 12:19 AM
...and with more animation power it will really be splendid


Now I agree with you on this.

palpal
12-05-2007, 12:41 AM
calilifestyle: I do not know, but it seem to be a essential part of some animators arsenal... why? My guess is that it is quite good at animating!

Let us see version 3 and judge then... PMG should post some more news along the way, I think most improvements are done in recent, and that is good, time is our friend, not enemy!

Yours PAL :bounce:

clicknroll
12-05-2007, 08:53 AM
I think messiah already has enough animator power in this phase, and about the render section, I sincerely don't use, don't know, don't care.
as more previous posts already stated, the main reason for getting messiah in the workflow is animation! (caps&bold).

but the main problem is usability!
and I'm talking about tablet issues and navigation system.


Because tablets operate in absolute coordinates* (when in Pen mode), the view navigation controls can be difficult to use. This is not a bug or a problem with a system, and nothing really can be done about this behavior.

Some users like to use their tablet in Mouse mode instead of Pen mode. In this case, you'll find that the tablet doesn't function properly with messiah.

kursad_pileksuz
12-05-2007, 09:17 AM
Tablet works fine if you do not use multiple monitors. You do not need to use mouse mode (which generally sucks) in Messiah.

As far as navigation goes, you can change all the camera navigation behaviours under, customize-keycommand manager-Navigation. This is not a documented feature. I currently use something closer to Modo-Maya navigation rather than the default behaviour in Messiah.

Clicknroll If you need further help with customization please email or message me.


I think messiah already has enough animator power in this phase, and about the render section, I sincerely don't use, don't know, don't care.
as more previous posts already stated, the main reason for getting messiah in the workflow is animation! (caps&bold).

but the main problem is usability!
and I'm talking about tablet issues and navigation system.

clicknroll
12-05-2007, 09:59 AM
hei k.p. and thanks for reply.
well, I'm actually using mouse mode for speed reasons - the lack of accuracy is unnoticeable.
I never had issues with this in any other application.. so it is possible.
and the navigation is awfull slow in high resolutions (1680x1050).

I will stick to messiah for now since I'm trying to replace xsi with a modo+messiah combo.
I sincerely hope v3.0 will let me enjoy the speed potential messiah already has.

kursad_pileksuz
12-05-2007, 10:12 AM
As I stated before Messiah and Modo compliment eachother very nicely. So yes It is worth giving a try.

Have you tried switching to wacom mode inside messiah? Because you do not need to use mouse mode inside Messiah. Both modes (Mouse and Pen) are available in Messiah currently.


Would you mind giving us more detailed information about your graphics card, cpu and ram etc so we can figure out why messiah is running slow on your machine? Because we run Messiah on similar res and we do not have any slow downs.





hei k.p. and thanks for reply.
well, I'm actually using mouse mode for speed reasons - the lack of accuracy is unnoticeable.
I never had issues with this in any other application.. so it is possible.
and the navigation is awfull slow in high resolutions (1680x1050).

I will stick to messiah for now since I'm trying to replace xsi with a modo+messiah combo.
I sincerely hope v3.0 will let me enjoy the speed potential messiah already has.

clicknroll
12-05-2007, 10:47 AM
hmm.. after switching to 1024x768 and back, tablet works fine in mouse mode.. no menu offsets, no other issues.
I'm running messiah on XP 64 - 3.2 intel dual core, 4gb ram, nvidia 7300 gt,
single display, wacom graphire.

thanks for your assistance k.p.
I'll drop you a pm with more questions :)

anyways, I think such experiences should be excluded with v3.0
messiah should be developed as an animation package. period.

paulhart
12-05-2007, 05:03 PM
Strong vote for the animation ease and coherency of experience mode. At its price point it stands alone as an animation tool and should only get better with Version 3. I am looking forward to the Fur aspect, interested in the render capacity, but I picked messiah primarily for the animation as Lightwave has been kludgey for too long. My problem is that I have the Wacom tablet, switching back and forth with mouse and pen, but I have two monitors, and there is where it gets wonky. I have gone in the manual, reset a key command to tablet input and mouse input, changed the way that Wacom maps for messiah only, one screen, two, mouse mode or not, and have yet to find a combination that doesn't cause the screen response to go wonky??? Sometimes, touch the screen and the item shoots off, other times click in a spot and object responds well but with an offset of 2" which is useless. Since no other application has ever had this problem, I remain dumbfounded. I can just use my mouse on my left side but prefer the tablet on the right. Any solutions????

kursad_pileksuz
12-05-2007, 06:41 PM
Delete delete
[/QUOTE]

kursad_pileksuz
12-05-2007, 06:47 PM
Paul, unfortunately Messiah does not get happy when you have dual monitor and if you are a wacom user. I have the same problem. If you use only one monitor wacom works just fine as in any other program(means native pen mode). I think that somehow dual monitor setting messes up wacom driver`s output to Messiah. Some programs handle this better than Messiah. I already discussed this issue with Fori and Taron they are aware of the problem.



Strong vote for the animation ease and coherency of experience mode. At its price point it stands alone as an animation tool and should only get better with Version 3. I am looking forward to the Fur aspect, interested in the render capacity, but I picked messiah primarily for the animation as Lightwave has been kludgey for too long. My problem is that I have the Wacom tablet, switching back and forth with mouse and pen, but I have two monitors, and there is where it gets wonky. I have gone in the manual, reset a key command to tablet input and mouse input, changed the way that Wacom maps for messiah only, one screen, two, mouse mode or not, and have yet to find a combination that doesn't cause the screen response to go wonky??? Sometimes, touch the screen and the item shoots off, other times click in a spot and object responds well but with an offset of 2" which is useless. Since no other application has ever had this problem, I remain dumbfounded. I can just use my mouse on my left side but prefer the tablet on the right. Any solutions????

timnhe
12-10-2007, 02:51 PM
Hi,
I have a question about if the v3 exports the animation information in any standard format, such as collada or fbx.

It can be an useful feature, for example, we are working in a proyect based flash realtime 3d that uses the papervision 3d libraries, and I can't to use messiah for the animations, because it canīt export the bone animation directly to collada, or to any other soft that exports to collada.

Papervision 3d itīs a great initiative to translate the realtime 3d to the web, itīs based in flash ActionScript 3, the standard format in web based interactive contents, it uses collada to import the scenes into the enviroment, and itīs free.

How many raltime proyects based papervision 3d will be in a few months?

please ... a collada (or more standard format) exporter to messiah :thumbsup:

TylerAZambori
12-10-2007, 04:13 PM
As I understand it, there's no FBX, and that's probably not going to happen.
It's kind of a bummer. At least I have the FBX plugin for XSI.

MarkInTx
12-13-2007, 01:25 AM
Here's what I think is funny (or quirky or interesting)... Most people on this thread have said that they hope we concentrate on the animation side instead of the rendering side, but then they turn around and talk about how they're using X renderer because they like it better than messiah's for X reason. Does that not seem rather strange? ...

Because here's how this comes off sounding to me:
"I don't use the renderer because it doesn't have the features that I need, and I hope they don't spend the time to address those issues."

Fred

Well, I can see how you would get that... and it may be frustrating... but maybe what everyone is saying is that they are OK using another Renderer, and that they really just want Messiah to be the world's best animator.

I think this is just your customer base understanding that the PMG team only has so much bandwidth, and given everything that they could work on, the renderer is their lowest priority. I don't really know, but I'm betting that some of the companies have more people working just on their renderer than PMG has on the whole of Messiah...

In a perfect world, hell yeah, it would be great if Messiah did everything... But the reality is that it can't be everything... so the user-base seems to be OK with it focusing on what it does best -- and making that better...

I don't think that is a bad thing, though... do you?

MoodyB
12-13-2007, 03:07 AM
The way I see it, by working on the renderer it makes M:S more attractive to new customers, as they won't need to fork out on another app to render their animation in.

Along with the fur shader / voxelini / whatever else 3.0 has in store, I'm hoping the GI side of things has been tweaked ( and going by the tests Ulven has posted, I gather it has :) )

I haven't used M:S anywhere near as frequently as most on the forum over the past year or two, but from what I've read and know it still holds its own in the animation department bar a few tweaks here and there. Imho, the renderer needed more 'love' than the animation side of things.

shadowfork
12-13-2007, 03:10 AM
Well, I can see how you would get that... and it may be frustrating... but maybe what everyone is saying is that they are OK using another Renderer, and that they really just want Messiah to be the world's best animator.

I think this is just your customer base understanding that the PMG team only has so much bandwidth, and given everything that they could work on, the renderer is their lowest priority. I don't really know, but I'm betting that some of the companies have more people working just on their renderer than PMG has on the whole of Messiah...

In a perfect world, hell yeah, it would be great if Messiah did everything... But the reality is that it can't be everything... so the user-base seems to be OK with it focusing on what it does best -- and making that better...

I don't think that is a bad thing, though... do you?


Amen to that!

Very well said!

MikeBuckland
12-13-2007, 10:41 AM
I know its probably not in this release, but please can we have scene referencing in Messiah?
At the moment its the only reason that we wouldnt use Messiah on a large scale project

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