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View Full Version : Endorphin...New character Tool !!


TRick
04-16-2003, 12:51 PM
www.naturalmotion.com


Anybody has experience with this....??

TRick
04-18-2003, 01:52 PM
:hmm:

.....Seems none are interested....Another new company down the drain.....

:sad:

Hugh
04-18-2003, 01:56 PM
I'm definately interested, but have never had a chance to use it - I've had a look through the demo videos on their site, and it looks like a very cool piece of software...

TRick
04-18-2003, 02:22 PM
I almost lost faith....more...more...more...

Except for the price this seems a killer app...

Everyone with experience is invited, especially since this is the board with most professionals...

:thumbsup:

Hugh
04-18-2003, 03:40 PM
I'd love to see a free demo version - it'd be good to see quite how flexible it is to use.....

bentllama
04-19-2003, 11:34 PM
garbage.

EDIT: above comment was a little vague and harsh...please read my comments below for a full understanding of my viewpoint

TRick
04-19-2003, 11:40 PM
Bentllama,

could it be a bit more informative please....

bentllama
04-20-2003, 04:04 AM
just as in mocap...using this method you will NEVER get the keyframes EXACTLY how you want them to be...

...90% of all apps that tout to "speed up content creation" are gimmicks...

...tell me where the performance of the character is in this package? where is the acting? that character nuances?

my two cents...

Voxel57
04-20-2003, 03:22 PM
I don't know if I would call it garbage but I do have to agree with bentllama. I've spent the past few months getting a lot of feedback from animators while developing our bone tools.
The pitch that I used to fall for all the time is the same one that Naturalmotion is using "it's so easy!". MOcap and tools like this one have their place and can save tons of work but.. The stuff that makes a great animation is still added by a talented animator/director/rigger/writer...ect ect.
As we have developed Ortho we have also been playing with the idea an inexpensive mocap package.
What I have learned is that there is always tweaking (sometimes more than a tweak) to be done. Even with VERY highend packages.
I think a lot of us ( OK me) who may not be in a production enviroment or sat with the loan animator who puts a year of spare time into a small personal project, fail to see the enormous amount of work that goes into a great piece of animation.
We tend to get real excited when we see tools like this. It's like a carrot on the end of a stick. You think I can make my work look like so and so.
So on top of learning a lot about developing plugins there is another great thing I've gotten out of talking to good animators through the development process. The words have finally drilled through my thick lazy skull...LEARN THE BASICS!
That is just what I am doing now, learning from scratch.
There's not a package out there that can make a good charater performance great.
I forget whos tag line this is in this forum but "You are a plugin".
Anyway just my VERY humble opinion.

bentllama
04-20-2003, 07:00 PM
thanks voxel57 for your opinion. I appreciate that.

perhaps i was quick to quip with the term "garbage", because this app has some promising concepts behind it, I will go into that a bit later in this rant ;)

these "amazing animation solutions" drive me crazy [almost as crazy as schools that hand out diplomas to anyone who walks in off the street, but that is another topic :)]

what gets me is that so many people are quick to jump on the whole "animation solution" gimmicky bandwagon because they fail to put the time into learning the basics themselves...instead of learning how to animate and breathe life into the chartacter they opt for "one click" solutions...no matter how detailed your model is, how detailed your lighting is, if your characters or objects move like stink then it will throw any suspension of disbelief out the window...

mocap has its place...like in sprts games for example...when you have simple action analysis and alot of it to do, mocap can be a viable solution, provided you have the right people to edit it...

...what is promising about this app is the AI and dynamics portion of it...I would LOVE to see that level of intricacy applied to real-time game environments...something I want to see is smarter dynamics/"rag doll" physics that take into account the character having muscle behind the joints and not just the joint types themselves [ie: hinge joint, ball joint, etc]...instead of bodies contorting in unbeleivable ways...I have been working on a solution like this in Maya, as well as thinking how I can work around it in Havok and it is a great big pain in the butt...so if I can get good results out of this, I may just have sped up my death animation production ;)

all in all I look forward to trying out new things...it is just the thought of people using it as a quick solution to animation that irks me...it is all about the basics people...all about the performance and the audience's empathy with the character

peace.

TRick
04-20-2003, 10:26 PM
Hi All,

I am glad to see opinions on this new tool are evolving.

I myself have learned animating on paper by hand and in 3D by hand and know all the principles for realistic and exagerated (Disney-like) animation. However there are a lot of situations where Mocap can help purely as a reference. And when realism is required these data can be the greatest help. The big disadvantage is it can be a very expensive thing and even impossible in some situations. Having read the specs of endorphin it is more intended as a reference. Instead of using mocap'd stuntmen you just buy this $16K program (which can be a cheap alternative to hiring) which does things for you. If you are a perfectionist you have to re-edit in both cases.

What I would like to know if some people have experience with data- and workflow; are the data you get from a simulation easy to edit; can you influence motions during or after a simulation.

All established programs have cloth and hair simulation; this also requires al lot of trail and error and even then you have to finetune the results.

Since I am doing artistic work I'm not striving for one-button-solutions, but as a reference these kind of things helped me learn a lot in the past....

Then there is another thing about one-button-solutions: as an artist and professional I feel obligated to check out all these solutions so I can see what direction the mass-markets are flowing. In the end I will be able to make a product that is both artistic and competitive....

RustyNail
10-17-2004, 04:50 PM
I use endorphin....Its a very effective and great animation tool. Altho they make this seem like a simple tool to use, at first it is hard to get the hang of. Also it has a few problems with its BVH exporter, as it has issues with poser and a few other applications. :thumbsup:

coop
10-18-2004, 08:14 AM
the people from endorphin stopped by to demo the product for us, and it looked really interesting, but just not in the way that they were selling it, which was a replacement tool for mocap AND keyframing, of which I was, and continue to be skeptical.

It's basically and AI simulation of a human with the ability to tweak all sorts of forces that act upon it. It also did some really interesting things, like intelligently blend between poses. You could actually set down 5 poses and direct the motion in some pretty interesting ways. Have the character stumble back, catch itself, stagger forward, etc. And within minutes, the guy selling this could generate something that had a lot of plausible weight mechanics behind it, and it seemed to be tuned in a way that looked less floaty than raw mocap data.

That being said, the best I saw of it turned out to be an animation of about 80% finish, and as far as I'm concerned, that last 20% is what really makes an animation. And for me to use this tool, I'd basically be a scripter, operating a complex simulation.

In the end I'm kinda mixed about it. I'm not really threatened that it will replace keyframe animation. But it looked like it had the potential to be a useful tool, as it's feature list was pretty huge. It's about 1000 times better than a ragdoll simulation, and it's basically a complicated AI designed by a bunch of smart people who took a pretty good stab at engineering human motion and behaviors. If they managed to put this thing into a game engine, it would be really powerful, especially for background characters that could react with their environment in a plausible way-

All in all, I went into the presentation thinking "pfui! garbage" but found myself impressed by the thought that went into this thing. At the moment, is it a timesaving tool for animation? In my opinion, for the animation I'm interested in doing - no. Taking some time to sketch out some key poses would be more valuable to me.

In any case. Not garbage, but not really animation, either. It's more like scripting-

-coop

TRick
10-18-2004, 10:14 AM
Finally some hand-on experiences. Cool !!!

Nonetheless, I wonder if there's anyone actually succesfully using it ?!?!

panki2004
02-13-2005, 09:43 PM
i use endorphin 1.6 and is the best way to mo cap .. u dont need actors ! unfortunatly no demos yet ! but i recomend only v1.6 ...

Mark-J
02-16-2005, 10:14 AM
Well, we've got Endorphin on trial at the moment, and I have to say, I'm impresed.

Ok, it's not the end all and be all of animation, neither is it a replacement to MoCap sessions..... BUT if you've got simulations, deaths, explosions, falls etc to do for game, then his looks a really nice way of churning them out without having to pre-rig them on your MoCap shoot, or killing your actors!.

It's got it's place, and it's a damn site better than rag-doll in game!


MarkJ
Eurocom Entertainment

JMcWilliams
02-18-2005, 08:45 AM
Well, we've got Endorphin on trial at the moment, and I have to say, I'm impresed.

Ok, it's not the end all and be all of animation, neither is it a replacement to MoCap sessions..... BUT if you've got simulations, deaths, explosions, falls etc to do for game, then his looks a really nice way of churning them out without having to pre-rig them on your MoCap shoot, or killing your actors!.

It's got it's place, and it's a damn site better than rag-doll in game!


MarkJ
Eurocom Entertainment

Right, so are we going to have a plethora of games coming out now that all have nearly identical animation sets?

Mark-J
02-22-2005, 12:45 PM
Nothing of the sort, Endorphin is definately NOT a full solution, it's a tool, to fill in the holes where MoCap is just impractical. Endorphin looks like the way to go for specific things like falls, explosions or anything which would possibly have been handled by the game engine's Rag-Doll, but no where near as well. Really impressive looking effects, but there's a short set of anims you'd want to handle in it, and at least it's NOT just going to churn out the same anim time and time again.

Besides...... do you really think that games don't already share anims ! :shrug:

Tombed
03-14-2005, 03:25 AM
I believe the technology was developed at the dept of zoology Oxford Univ, obviously a lot of thought has gone into it. The demos are impressive but I think procedural animation lacks personality- as does MOCAP. It only seems to cater to humanoids too, it would be really smart if it could work with any rig. It would be fun to see it decide how different rigs would behave.

artman50
04-15-2005, 07:54 PM
hi, i need endorphin v2 i realy nedd it, if someone can help me please contact me !! tx

Hugh
04-15-2005, 10:55 PM
If you go to this site (http://www.naturalmotion.com/pages/sales.htm), you should be able to get it pretty easily....

artman50
04-16-2005, 01:09 AM
tx!!! :) but where can i find $12,795 dls ??? .. im asking for a kind of free stuff, demo, or somethong .

olli96
04-16-2005, 08:17 AM
there is no demo or trial version of endorphin.

Olli

artman50
04-17-2005, 02:13 AM
:sad: have to be another way,,,

Hugh
04-17-2005, 10:12 AM
We all know what you're asking for, and the answer is no.

artman50
04-17-2005, 02:31 PM
ok , i hope that a demo come out soon tx

lyppeter
04-17-2005, 06:45 PM
dame it's amazing

artman50
05-06-2005, 06:52 PM
i have hte oportunity of using endorphin 2.0 for 20 minutes in a friend company, and ill say its amazing, ill purschase as soon as i can buy y want to know if there are som mocap colections i can buy, cus i have never use mocaps... tx and i highly recomend it!

artman50
07-22-2005, 02:58 PM
hug , waiting is good ! FREE ENDORPHIN LEARNING EDITION (http://www.naturalmotion.com/pages/le.htm)im so happy :bounce:

beatloafer
07-23-2005, 07:46 PM
If they managed to put this thing into a game engine, it would be really powerful

I agree completely, this tool is amazing not so much because of the quality of the animation, but because of the control you have over the simulation... basically taking ragdoll to the next level. If they were able to package this as a game development tool, like Havok, they would have a gold mine.

Chris_Mackin
07-29-2005, 03:42 AM
This months 3d world has a demo on the cover!!!


Have tried it and have had hours of fun. If I was a millionaire I'de buy it.

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