CGTalk - Women in VFX! :: Special Feature

Rebeccak

11-02-2007, 03:49 PM

inguatu

11-02-2007, 03:49 PM

chicks... man.

inguatu

11-02-2007, 03:50 PM

This goes a long way to help the industry :rolleyes:

pointless.

no different than if a guy does it and it does nothing to harm or help the industry. It's one person acting out. pointless indeed.

redbyte

11-02-2007, 04:31 PM

This goes a long way to help the industry :rolleyes:

pointless.

Agreed. I despise people who do that for a photo.
I'd like to say congrats for getting into the field. But she's just being a pretentious fool!

shmooel

11-02-2007, 04:56 PM

What a load of BS, every woman I have worked with gets pampered and treated far better than the others around her. I think this article was a load, and apparently I am not alone in this.:shrug:

niva

11-02-2007, 05:30 PM

http://features.cgsociety.org/stories/2007_11/women/im13.jpg

This goes a long way to help the industry :rolleyes:

pointless.

I can't believe this was a serious article... There are countless reasons why women don't flock to this industry which are very easy to identify such as stupid work hours, inconsistent benefits and pay due to down time between projects, horror stories everywhere you look in the news and etc. Also crunch time for games and movies is extremely stressful, only people with a passion for it will willingly jump on for that ride. Also because the field is so male dominated it might turn many women off who would be perfectly capable of being above average in the industry.

I hate the broad generalizations...yes, women and men are different, that's why they're called women and not men.

Antropus

11-02-2007, 05:58 PM

The article is interesting, and thank you for providing it Paul, but I would have liked to have heard more about individual bios and what made those particular women successful. I thought a lot of the generalizations were sort of unnecessarily broad and saying that women are sacrificing more lunch breaks etc. than men isn't really true in the workplace. Btw I'm female and I suck sometimes at multitasking. :) I don't know, the tone of the article was a bit odd, it seemed a little rushed and too broad in scope - I think a lot of what makes these women successful are attributes that don't have very much to do with gender. Successful people are going to share traits that others of the same or opposite gender might not possess. Ultimately I think it comes down to who the person is and not their gender, but of course it's not to say that gender / race / sexual orientation / etc. discrimination does not exist, or shouldn't be talked about.

I think it would be great to do in depth interviews with some of the women featured, and not necessarily completely from the angle of their being women.
I agree with everything you said Rebecca. It's interesting to notice how everybody likes to be treated equal but the same people keep setting him/herself apart by using the gender thing. I always say that it's about the person, not the gender or race. Some people will be great doctors, men or women, of any race. Same for athletes, artists or whoever you imagine. It's about being able or "having talent" to do it or not. Dedicating to something or not. It's a human thing.

I personally don't like those articles because if everybody wants to be treated equal, people have to stop self-discriminating from the rest. Not that discrimination does not exist, like Rebecca said, but come on, it's 2007 and looking around I see woman and men working in the same fields all the time. I had plenty of women bosses already. I think the best way to be treated equal is to treat everybody equal, starting from him/herself.
If the interview was based on work experience and the path they came along till the place where they are today, it would be so much more interesting to read.

My 2 cents.
-Kris

ringzero

11-02-2007, 06:14 PM

http://features.cgsociety.org/stories/2007_11/women/im13.jpg

This goes a long way to help the industry :rolleyes:

pointless.

I think his name is Gavin... Hes been living as a man for a number of years.

RockstarKate

11-02-2007, 06:23 PM

Ugh. The second I read "women are multitaskers by nature" I cringed and lost interest. That's like saying "men are good at math and women are good at writing." In otherwords, total BS. And totally useless. Some women are great scientists and some men are great writers. Some women actually like video games! :eek: And some men like ballet. Generalizing doesn't do us any good.
I also found it amusing that the article seemed to imply that only men make unrealistic 3D Females. I've seen women doing that too.
I was the only female in many of my 3D classes in school and now I work with mostly men, but to me this is totally irrelevant. If you are good at what you do, that's all that matters.
The only times I feel like it is unusual that I'm a female doing 3D is on forums, actually. A lot of people assume that you're a man unless your name clearly labels you as female. It's more amusing than offensive though when someone says "Dude, man, nice job buddy!"

RubenDrakkar

11-02-2007, 06:28 PM

Ruz

11-02-2007, 06:32 PM

hmm, women in cg . They will be wanting the vote next:)

Just kidding. its irrelevant really, male or female long as they do a good job who cares.

Red82

11-02-2007, 06:34 PM

I found the article to be extremely nonjudgmental and clear in its intentions.

"More like Angry Feminists in VFX." What? I didnt read anything in the article that put men down or claimed that women are unappreciated in the industry.

"What is this with making women victims all the time?" The mention of women sometimes being alone in class was focusing on how women most likely feel in a situation like that. There are subjects in school that are clearly more popular with women then men and vice versa. Obviously, when someone is different in a large group it causes anxiety. A man would probably feel uncomfortable in a course which is full of women, such as child studies for example. The point wasn't, oh poor darling, shes alone in a group of big bad men. It was just pointing out that that might be why some women are reticent to enroll in such courses. The fear of being singled out is always stressful. However, in my own personal experience, in Montreal, Qc, the animation and CG courses have a lot of female students. More and more each year actually. So I agree with the basic message of that part of the article, I just don't think its necessarily an issue in CG.

It was clearly written at the beginning of the article that Renee "wasn’t looking for fault; {she} set out looking for answers." No one was blaming men for anything.

I think it was informative for women looking to get into the industry because it speaks about what kinds of qualities a person, I repeat, A PERSON, must have to succeed in the field. It also illustrates how different jobs require different levels of commitment. So as to say that not every position in CG is right for everyone. Man or woman, there are questions you must ask yourself to determine what career path to take.

"I hate the broad generalizations" I hate that too, but I didn't find it to be a problem in this article. Words and phrases like "seem to", "isn’t a pervasive rule of thumb,", "might", "sometimes" and "some women" were used regularly to avoid such generalizations.

I 100% agree about your comments on that photo. Its a touchy subject as it is, and that just seems unnecessarily provocative and contradicts the basic message of the article. Her gesture probably had nothing to do with the subject at hand... maybe she just wanted to show an aggressive side... but I think it was inappropriate in this case.

Yeah, I wrote a lot... but I think it was worth saying.

Buzzoff

11-02-2007, 06:39 PM

as they do a good job who cares.

That isn't usually true, but then gender isn't always an issue.

zerocool1111

11-02-2007, 06:42 PM

Its all about Jade Raymond ;)

RockstarKate

11-02-2007, 06:42 PM

Its about each other and passion of work you can put. But its really strange that in this industry women do not populate the carreer.

It isn't so strange, and I think it will change eventually. I think a lot of women just don't get exposed to the more interesting and artistic aspects of CG unless they seek it out. I mean, look at the covers of 3D World. It is almost always a sexy woman or a robot. These things don't really draw women in. I know that it is a perception among people who don't do 3D that all it's used for is male-centric video games and explosions in movies. I think a lot of people have a negative attitude about it because of that. But now that 3D is more mainstream and we have 3D animated films that show CG can be used for anything, not just making big fake boobs, I think women will become more interested.
I'd be willing to bet that a lot of it is because of gaming. Boys play a lot more video games than girls and most games are aimed at men. I think a lot of people come to CG because they saw cool stuff in a video game and thought "I want to do that!" Just a guess though.

AjaBogdanoff

11-02-2007, 07:02 PM

This article is a poorly-written collection of random thoughts and anecdotes sprinkled with pointlessly offensive photographs. The 3 paragraphs discussing how "sensitive" women are and how they can't network because they don't go to Happy Hour and talk about "electronic gizmos" with the guys is, in particular, incredibly out-of-touch with the reality of the industry.

Booyah

11-02-2007, 07:06 PM

LOL, this article i think offends BOTH genders. This was a nice contradiction, "Women tend to be highly creative, and also lean towards broader interests. They are less likely to suffer from color blindness."
AND
"Men have a tendency to bond through extracurricular activities. They might go to Happy Hour, might discuss a weekend soccer game, or take in a round of golf. They compare cars or their latest electronic gizmos."
AND
"Women, by comparison, tend to remain riveted to their jobs then go home to tend to issues there."

This was humorous,"...not one woman noticed a glass ceiling, simply because they didn’t stop to clean it." -real PC.
It seems women in the industry are secure enough to not let anything get in their way, so why have this article in the first place, it's hard for anyone to get a job animating or working in VFX. Should men say we have more competetion because there are so many guys in the industry to compete with? NO, it's a very competetive industry regardless of gender.

Anyone working in 3D has to ask themselves "... what will make you really love what you do? Do you want children and want to come home for dinner? Do you want to travel the world? Do you mind getting dirty? Do you get easily offended? Do you love technology? Do you love organizing? Do you have people skills? Do you like working in the pipeline, or do you prefer delegating work? Are you not afraid to ask questions and state answers? Can you earn trust, trust others, and most of all, trust yourself?"

NOT just women, it's not a gender issue.

I give credit to women working in the industry just as I do men, it's hard work and you have to be very creative and talented, and those are the people that fill this industry.

Renee Dunlop

11-02-2007, 07:12 PM

This article was in response to people frequently asking me why there are so few women, so I did the research and compiled answers from some of the leaders in the industry. Initially as I tried to line up interviewees, I got a few defensive knee-jerk reactions, such as the very first comment, a reaction before even reading the article. That wasn’t uncommon at first, and I would love to know everyone’s thoughts on why this topic can’t be addressed as just a question of numbers, and how has it become so emotional? Another point of interest is the photo. Why is there such a strong reaction to that?

I collected a bloody ton of info on this, and there was no way to put it all in just two pages. But, if anyone has questions, I can try to answer them here. I have additional shared insights on ageism, gays, meeker men, etc. too. Lots of worthwhile stuff that anyone in the industry could use.

Renee

MikeRhone

11-02-2007, 07:18 PM

http://features.cgsociety.org/story_custom.php?story_id=1752

This is an article Leigh wrote a few years back. In my opinion, it is much better written and was put together in a much more objective light. This newer article feels much more like a 'rally the troops against oppressed women' article.

I am not a woman of course, but I am going to be bold and state that all of the industry women I know personally are doing quite well in regards to salary, position, and are completely treated equally in this business.

neurobasics

11-02-2007, 07:22 PM

....being married or engaged is considered an acheivement or a skill? why is it mentioned at all? who cares?

Renee Dunlop

11-02-2007, 07:28 PM

....being married or engaged is considered an acheivement or a skill? why is it mentioned at all? who cares?

It actually does seem to affect certain job opportunities, since some require so much travel. That goes for both men and women (as does pretty much all this info.)

Renee

Puzzle3d

11-02-2007, 07:31 PM

Very...ahhhh...Dumb. Next how bout an article about those in the CG industry that wear purple hats and green socks. Then maybe one about short people vs tall people. Follow that up with Fat people vs skinny people, or maybe one about tuff chicks who think flipping a camera the bird makes them as dumb as a man who does the same thing.
Really the amount of dumb articles one can concieve of and actually impliment is endless. Good ones? Well we'll just have to keep looking.
Chris Provine

Essex

11-02-2007, 07:43 PM

They share some interesting similarities. Both came up through the ranks. Both love being in the trenches. Both are very independent women. One is married, the other engaged, both to Compositors. Both are technically inclined. And neither feel they have been entangled in gender issues, and if they were, they were working too hard and having too good a time to notice.

I hear you loud and clear.
soooo... I should start working on my compositing skills. Clearly all CG women will find me simply irresistible. Shake node trees are pretty sexy.

inguatu

11-02-2007, 07:50 PM

Its all about Jade Raymond ;)

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

eek

11-02-2007, 07:56 PM

I would love to know everyone’s thoughts on why this topic can’t be addressed as just a question of numbers, and how has it become so emotional?

Why does it need to be addressed in the first place?

Imagus

11-02-2007, 07:57 PM

At the risk of incurring wrath...

The dichotomy of this article is staggering. The lead-off question is "why are there so few women in VFX?" Many of the images in the article forcefully push the idea that CG is a "boy's club", and females are portrayed in a stereotypical sexist light. Section titles such as "If you are standing atop that glass ceiling, is it ok to wear a skirt?" speaks to the inability of women to break into the industry through stereotyping and discrimination.

But, at the same time, the article groups women together and paints them with broad stereotypical brush strokes. "Women are multi-taskers by nature; it’s an inherent skill", "(female) producers rely on many of the skills used by Administrative Assistants". Men socialize after work, women go home. Several times, it also directly and indirectly ties women's concerns about family to their inability/lack of desire to "climb the ladder", but one supervisor was married, the other engaged.

The pay issue has been documented across the board, but is brought up in this article as relating specifically to VFX. It's not that it's inaccurate, just that it's not really relevant to the specific subject of success in the VFX industry.

The whole "For Love or Money" section is a complete non-sequitur, veering away from the topic without ever even attempting to tie it back to the main point of the article. The history of the Equal Pay Act is interesting, but how does it relate to the point? And the particulars of the Act's "accidental" inclusion of women once again slants the supposedly "unbiased" article back to a "boy's club, no girls allowed" angle. This is reinforced by the "men socialize outside of work, women don't" theme two paragraphs later, once again painting genders with broad, stereotypical (and even inaccurate) brush strokes.

The most frustrating thing about this article is that it's not making statements to contribute to the subject, but just making statements. It contradicts itself and fails to reach anything even approaching a conclusion, even if that conclusion is that there is no conclusion. There are theories, but that's about it, and they are mostly based on presumptions of inherent gender stereotypes and roles.

At the end, the article says that "What information provided here merely scratches the surface." It could actually be said that it either flies over or glances off of the surface, never really even leaving a mark at all. The only truly well-presented piece is the very last line: "The good news is there are many opportunities, and the doors are wide open. All you have to do is step up." Still doesn't anwer anything, but at least it's cohesive and informative.

Despite the comments in this thread, I had hoped to find something insightful or interesting to take away from this article. However, all I found was a random jumble of thoughts and facts that contradicted one another and completely missed the point. It really isn't hard to see how it could all be viewed as merely an attempt to stir up controversy, at the expense of addressing a very interesting topic.

What was it saying? Everything and anything, but ultimately nothing. Very disappointing.

EDIT: I strongly encourage anyone who is so inclined to check out Leigh's article, linked to here (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=4751451&postcount=25). It makes statements that echo some of the things in this article, but it proceeds to follow them up with explanations. In short, it presents information, then explains where that information comes from. It is a far better example of making a cohesive statement on the topic at hand.

ekah

11-02-2007, 08:02 PM

The article is interesting, and thank you for providing it Paul, but I would have liked to have heard more about individual bios and what made those particular women successful. I thought a lot of the generalizations were sort of unnecessarily broad and saying that women are sacrificing more lunch breaks etc. than men isn't really true in the workplace. Btw I'm female and I suck sometimes at multitasking. I don't know, the tone of the article was a bit odd, it seemed a little rushed and too broad in scope - I think a lot of what makes these women successful are attributes that don't have very much to do with gender. Successful people are going to share traits that others of the same or opposite gender might not possess. Ultimately I think it comes down to who the person is and not their gender, but of course it's not to say that gender / race / sexual orientation / etc. discrimination does not exist, or shouldn't be talked about.

I think it would be great to do in depth interviews with some of the women featured, and not necessarily completely from the angle of their being women.

I agree with everything Rebecca said. An article like this inevitably lumps all women together into a category. CGS's intentions with the article may have been good, but it does a disservice in ways that I don't think is healthy. If you want to inspire aspiring artists, men or women, focus on individual's success as Rebecca mentioned. It will have a more powerful impact than your article. I'm an Asian-American woman, and I would have been just as disappointed if you had featured an article with a group of Asian artists working in the west.

It seems women in the industry are secure enough to not let anything get in their way, so why have this article in the first place, it's hard for anyone to get a job animating or working in VFX. Should men say we have more competetion because there are so many guys in the industry to compete with? NO, it's a very competetive industry regardless of gender...

NOT just women, it's not a gender issue.

I give credit to women working in the industry just as I do men, it's hard work and you have to be very creative and talented, and those are the people that fill this industry.

Absolutely agreed.

Another point of interest is the photo. Why is there such a strong reaction to that?

The photo in question would have created strong reactions regardless of gender. To me, this was a cheap bait, and I don't believe that you (CGS) didn't see this coming.

Renee Dunlop

11-02-2007, 08:08 PM

What was it saying? Everything and anything, but ultimately nothing. Very disappointing.[/QUOTE]

Sorry to disappoint you. This is hardly the easiest topic to broach, believe me. Perhaps it would be easier to give a specific answer if you asked a specific question. I will be happy to share whatever information I learned during my research.

.

spurcell

11-02-2007, 08:13 PM

Sorry to disappoint you. This is hardly the easiest topic to broach, believe me. Perhaps it would be easier to give a specific answer if you asked a specific question. I will be happy to share whatever information I learned during my research.

actually I think the point people are making that, there probably isn't alot of info you gathered that isn't obvious to just about anyone if they stop and think about it for a second. Maybe I exaggerated, but I could have sworn there have been articles about this very subject, that are more recent then leighs. I swear this comes up at least once every year.

Briareos

11-02-2007, 08:14 PM

haha wow, this article helps no one... :rolleyes:

Imagus

11-02-2007, 08:17 PM

Sorry to disappoint you. This is hardly the easiest topic to broach, believe me. Perhaps it would be easier to give a specific answer if you asked a specific question. I will be happy to share whatever information I learned during my research.I don't have a specific question, except perhaps this: what were you trying to achieve with this article? What topic were you attempting to address, and what did you find out? What conclusion(s) did you reach?

You mentioned that two pages is not a lot of room to address a topic as large as this. Perhaps, but that's why you distill the information down to its basic components, then augment those components with facts relevant to them, tying it all back to the main focus of the piece. You needn't include every detail, but you should include all of the relevant ones.

This article was supposedly written to share the information you obtained during your research. But that isn't all there is to writing, be it for an essay, article or novel. The presentation of the information is crucial, and it seems to be very lacking here.

I'm not sure I see the need to treat the author, who has provided numerous articles for CGS in the past, with such disdain. This is not a popular topic perhaps but let's not make the comments personal in nature.
RebeccaK/Renee: I certainly hope that my comments aren't being taken as a personal attack. I actually did hesitate when considering replying to this thread but, as a writer myself, I felt compelled to comment on what I perceived to be some serious issues with the article. I intended them as constructive, but they may not have come off that way. If you feel that they are out of line, please let me know and I'll be happy to remove them.

Rebeccak

11-02-2007, 08:18 PM

I'm not sure I see the need to treat the author, who has provided numerous articles for CGS in the past, with such disdain. This is not a popular topic perhaps but let's not make the comments personal in nature. I think that the nature of web forums incites a bit of mob excitement when people don't like something, but let's keep this discussion reasonable.

Thank you

Renee Dunlop

11-02-2007, 08:21 PM

I agree with everything Rebecca said. An article like this inevitably lumps all women together into a category. CGS's intentions with the article may have been good, but it does a disservice in ways that I don't think is healthy. If you want to inspire aspiring artists, men or women, focus on individual's success as Rebecca mentioned. It will have a more powerful impact than your article. I'm an Asian-American woman, and I would have been just as disappointed if you had featured an article with a group of Asian artists working in the west.

The photo in question would have created strong reactions regardless of gender. To me, this was a cheap bait, and I don't believe that you (CGS) didn't see this coming.

First:
Well, of course it lumps them all together, after all, I had two pages to cover an enormous topic, LOL. I have the information on how both Eberle and Goulakas got into the field, let me dig that up for you and post it here in a moment.

Second:
But what I find curious is why this particular photo has such a reaction, as compared to, say, the images of women barely keeping their clothes on? Please note, this is a true question. Why, of all the images on the page, did this one raise such an ire when the others haven't even been mentioned? Is it offensive? and why is it so offensive compared to, say, the buxom babe who can barely keep her clothes on?

Trojan123

11-02-2007, 08:24 PM

is it time already for the obligatory 'women in cg' article? I'd rather someone did a 'disabled' person in cg article or something like that. But since, I'm not capable of creating it myself, I guess i'll just shutup and read the article.

Co-sign.

Besides, if women want to be considered equal, then why are we still counting geintals in the workplace? I'd rather worry about capabable people than whether or not we had enough numbers of the other gender, skin color, sexual preference, etc.

Trojan123

11-02-2007, 08:27 PM

Ya know, on a somewhat related / unrelated topic, I read an article in my local paper about a latin woman becoming a big time producer in Hollywood.

Her statement was "we need more latinos in Hollywood."

Sorry, that is a very racist statement... just like people saying "we need more women here".

It's stupid.

SylvanMist

11-02-2007, 08:29 PM

Second:
But what I find curious is why this particular photo has such a reaction, as compared to, say, the images of women barely keeping their clothes on? Please note, this is a true question. Why, of all the images on the page, did this one raise such an ire when the others haven't even been mentioned? Is it offensive? and why is it so offensive compared to, say, the buxom babe who can barely keep her clothes on?

Actually, I would like to ask you what the point was in having those 3 or 4 really sexy overexaggerated 3d & 2d renders of the "buxom babes" in your article? I honestly saw no point to it at all, and if your article is in any way trying to gain support, or shed a positive light, on women in the industry, then I'd even go so far as to say those pictures are offensive. As a women in the industry, I surely wouldn't want to be represented or associated with such stereotypes.
So why did you choose to include those images?

I think that the pic of the woman giving the finger is just trying to state something like "women can play a men's game too" "see i'm tough!", and I think that's really sending the wrong message as others have stated. It's really cheesy and isn't helping make things "equal". If there are still gender issues around making such statements I don't feel will help anything.

Rebeccak

11-02-2007, 08:32 PM

Besides, if women want to be considered equal, then why are we still counting geintals in the workplace? I'd rather worry about capabable people than whether or not we had enough numbers of the other gender, skin color, sexual preference, etc.
In a way, I think the author was (rightly or wrongly) thinking mainly of women as her audience when writing the article. I think that the intention was there to give encouragement to women thinking about the CG field by examining some of the societal assumptions that some women may have internalized and to question their validity. I'm not saying that the article necessarily succeeeded in accomplishing this goal, but from what I took from what was written, I think the purpose was to sort of rally more women to the field by attempting to dissect why women might not want, or might not be 'encouraged', to try CG.

Having said that, my personal take on things is that respect is earned, and I think of the profession before the gender. That's true for any field, not just VFX or CG generally speaking. I think most professionals want to be taken seriously and highly regarded for the job that they do, and that's it.

RubenDrakkar

11-02-2007, 08:33 PM

I think also that in this thread itself all the opinions are made by male. There are 3 or 4 ladies that make opinions here, and I think that a good solution is to send this thread to more ladies going around this forum to find an answer regarding this issue.

Best Regards
Rubens

Renee Dunlop

11-02-2007, 08:40 PM

You wrote:
You mentioned that two pages is not a lot of room to address a topic as large as this. Perhaps, but that's why you distill the information down to its basic components, then augment those components with facts relevant to them, tying it all back to the main focus of the piece. You needn't include every detail, but you should include all of the relevant ones.

This article was supposedly written to share the information you obtained during your research. But that isn't all there is to writing, be it for an essay, article or novel. The presentation of the information is crucial, and it seems to be very lacking here.

Reply:
This article was intentionally open ended to encourage (intelligent) questions that could be either addressed here, or in a follow up article. I do appreciate your observations, they are quite true. In my defense, though, I was still receiving feedback only hours before the deadline. It was quite an undertaking, and quite frankly, even tackling this topic had me losing weeks of sleep. It's not like I didn't know I would be shot no matter what I wrote.

Aside from the literary critique, do you have any questions about the topic you would like to address? I am happy to share whatever I have here.

Renee Dunlop

11-02-2007, 08:46 PM

Loren Smith, Digital Line Producer for Simpsons Movie and Producer for TV’s King of the Hill started her career in live action, working as an intern at Warner Brothers spotting on movies with sound editors, then landing temp work as a writer’s assistant. Her first job in production was for a small documentary company, and went on to script supervising, learned about editing, and eventually worked as a full set decorator. Her script supervising led her to doing music videos and concerts where she became First AD. All these combined skills led her becoming a Producer in live action, where her work got her noticed by Disney, who recruited her for animation. Her last stint was for the Simpsons Movies for Film Roman and 20th Century Fox.

Producer Ellen Coss’s particular path started in 1984 in computer animation worked in commercials. From there she moved to CG theme park films before moving to Universal to work on The Funtastic World of Hanna Barbera before landing at Rhythm & Hues. At Disney, she worked on two more theme park attractions, PhilharMagic and Magic Lamp before moving to DreamWorks where she was Associate Producer on Over the Hedge. She now works as a Producer at Walden Media.

Catherine Winder, Producer at Lucas Film Animation, is currently working as the Executive Producer for The Clone Wars Series. After college, she traveled the world for 14 months before settling in Japan to work at Disney Television Animation Japan in production management, where women typically painted cels, served coffee, or brought men cigarettes. The head of production asked her to clean ashtrays, and Winder had to decline, explaining that was not what she was hired for. It was so unusual to have a woman in management that people would come to look at her as part of the tour. Though things worked out for her in Japan, after that, any gender bias in the USA seemed negligible. I have lot’s more on Catherine, but would need to edit it down quite a bit.

Next I will post the paths for Eberle and Goulekas. But first I need more coffee!

ekah

11-02-2007, 08:52 PM

First:
Well, of course it lumps them all together, after all, I had two pages to cover an enormous topic, LOL. I have the information on how both Eberly and Goulakas got into the field, let me dig that up for you and post it here in a moment.

Second:
But what I find curious is why this particular photo has such a reaction, as compared to, say, the images of women barely keeping their clothes on? Please note, this is a true question. Why, of all the images on the page, did this one raise such an ire when the others haven't even been mentioned? Is it offensive? and why is it so offensive compared to, say, the buxom babe who can barely keep her clothes on?

Hi Renee.

I appreciate the effort you made in putting the article together even if I don't agree with the way it was presented. I also thank you for participating in this open discussion while taking all the heat. I understand that it can't be too much fun.

I thought the other images were meant to be a joke targeting specifically the game industry more than the VFX industry, which is what your article focused on. Whether it's tasteless or not, I think people got the point you were trying to make by featuring cartoony women/girls with over-sized boobs depicting the industry albeit a generalized point of view. To me, the message was that the industry needs to grow up. I don't know that if it applies to the VFX industry, I don't know it enough to have an opinion. I still think you were being provocative with the images you have chosen for the article. You said you sought out to not blame anyone, but what messages were you trying to send with the images? The images come off as statements and commentaries, not questions.

The photo, on the other hand, is one of the featured women. What message were you trying to convey with it? To whom is she flipping her finger? To the industry? To the men? To the readers? What are you trying to say with this image? That she is just as tough as the boys are? Is this necessary? Is it not enough that she is already a working professional in the industry in a respectable position?

Imagus

11-02-2007, 08:56 PM

Aside from the literary critique, do you have any questions about the topic you would like to address? I am happy to share whatever I have here.I'm glad you see the literary critique for what it is, and not as a personal attack.

As to specific questions, I really don't have any, as the article itself doesn't really present solid enough statements/topics upon which to base further questions. I will say that, if the purpose of the article was simply to stimulate discussion on women in the CG industry, then that goal could have been just as easily accomplished through a well thought-out post on CGTalk, or any other industry-themed message board.

I also found it amusing that the article seemed to imply that only men make unrealistic 3D Females. I've seen women doing that too.Just caught this when re-reading the thread, and thought it worth mentioning that the very last image (http://features.cgsociety.org/stories/2007_11/women/im12.jpg), complete with the line "come... it's not much further..." and arguably the most unrealistic figure of the bunch, is actually captioned "Illustrated by Kate Bradley, character property of Midway Games."

tatiana

11-02-2007, 09:00 PM

...There are countless reasons why women don't flock to this industry which are very easy to identify such as stupid work hours, inconsistent benefits and pay due to down time between projects, horror stories everywhere you look in the news and etc...Also because the field is so male dominated it might turn many women off who would be perfectly capable of being above average in the industry.

I hate the broad generalizations....

Quoted for agreement.

Megann

11-02-2007, 09:04 PM

Besides the fact that this article contains a lot of sweeping generalizations, I also believe that two pages aren't nearly enough to cover such a subject.

The reason I believe this, is because VFX is not the only industry in which women are less represented. Perhaps the causes do not lay with this industry, but with present culturual views of what what men and women are expected to be.

If this is indeed the case, than this is not a topic for this forum. Getting more women into this industry would only be a small band-aid for much larger problems.

Renee Dunlop

11-02-2007, 09:39 PM

Hi Renee.

I appreciate the effort you made in putting the article together even if I don't agree with the way it was presented. I also thank you for participating in this open discussion while taking all the heat. I understand that it can't be too much fun.

I thought the other images were meant to be a joke targeting specifically the game industry more than the VFX industry, which is what your article focused on. Whether it's tasteless or not, I think people got the point you were trying to make by featuring cartoony women/girls with over-sized boobs depicting the industry albeit a generalized point of view. To me, the message was that the industry needs to grow up. I don't know that if it applies to the VFX industry, I don't know it enough to have an opinion. I still think you were being provocative with the images you have chosen for the article. You said you sought out to not blame anyone, but what messages were you trying to send with the images? The images come off as statements and commentaries, not questions.

The photo, on the other hand, is one of the featured women. What message were you trying to convey with it? To whom is she flipping her finger? To the industry? To the men? To the readers? What are you trying to say with this image? That she is just as tough as the boys are? Is this necessary? Is it not enough that she is already a working professional in the industry in a respectable position?

No, it's not fun. Thanks, I apreciate that.

On the images, first, it was very difficult even getting art, and we used every scrap we could find. Everything has to go through multiple approvals. Since this was not an article on a particular film, there was little to choose from, so I put out a massive call for art, but only received a few images. Some had copyright and licensing issues and couldn't be used- actually those were the best. As a matter of fact, this article was delayed just to find more art, and I would have loved something that applied more myself, but to get things started, this was all I could find. (I had hoped to ask for CGSociety submissions for Part 2, if it was ever commissioned. I thought it could be a great way for the readers to participate.)

On the photo, first, in Eberle's defense, she is one of the coolest people in the world. I've interviewed her twice over the years and she is just fantastic to talk to, completely fearless and genuine and lots of laughs. Both her and Goulekas are the kind of VFX Sups anyone would want to work with. I interview a lot, and honestly, I get some that are so _______ to talk to that I wonder how they ever got their jobs much less get a team to work with them. These two are the type that would make the job rock so much that you would hate to leave at the end of the day. With that in mind, perhaps you can realize Eberle wasn't giving the finger to anyone. This photo wasn't taken for this article, it's one of several, and I am guessing (she has not said this, these are my assumptions) she was just giving the finger to say, "world, you will not take away what I love and excel at". It's not targeted at any group in particular (BTW she was reading this forum earlier, BTW, when so many decided to shorten their careers in favor of being the first to post attacks, ahem). Haven't you ever just looked in the mirror and dared the world to stop you from doing what you wanted to do? If you haven't, you should! ;-)

fuss

11-02-2007, 09:40 PM

Another point of interest is the photo. Why is there such a strong reaction to that?

You mean this one?

http://features.cgsociety.org/stories/2007_11/women/im13.jpg

Because it says "**** you" to me, the reader.

EDIT:

Renee, looks like we posted almost at the same time, so I did not read your explanation of this photo until after I already posted my response. Your explanations aside, none of us - readers - can know what was on the photograph's or Charlene Eberle's mind when the photo was made, all it says to me, ESPECIALLY in the context of your article, is still just "**** you".

Vagab0nd

11-02-2007, 09:41 PM

Without the privilage of reading the article, as each time i try I get "cannot find server", I can say that I loved this thread, the debate is fantastic. I am a chef, by trade, and if you have ever worked in a Kitchen near Christmas youcan truly understand Crunch time, NOw, there are very few women in this industry , and who can blame them, if you ever heard what cooks say moment to moment, you may not even want to eat the food they make, it is a boy's club, and for the women that thrive there, well Gender is perhaps a factor, but not theirs, that is for sure, it is their understanding of men, and the fact that guy's will be guy's, and those who can accept that fact, well they have a great time, they are relaxed, and they happily particpate in all of the goofing off, and comradery. Those who want it to change because they are in the room, well they get the same treatment as ANY GUY who wants the world to change whenever he shows up, they get the cold shoulder, If your expected to accept a person AS they are, what gives them the right not to accept you as they found you, people are not their gender, they are a collection of every person they ever met, or interacted with, they are a collection of evrey thought they have been exposed to, there hardly ever their gender. The only place I have ever experienced a moment(S) in life where the clearest differance between man and woman were clear cut, were in the bedroom. Anyplace wlse it was a moot point.

Renee Dunlop

11-02-2007, 09:47 PM

If the interview was based on work experience and the path they came along till the place where they are today, it would be so much more interesting to read.

My 2 cents.
-Kris

Most articles cover that. This one covers a different topic, and is meant to seek what people want to know so that can be addressed next. (Frankly, though this was tremendously stressful to research- and the forum isn't much fun either, it was a nice change from asking the same general questions and getting the same general answers that many article require. I do enough of those to sleep through them now!) ;-)

I posted the pathways for the producers on this forum, and will post the VFX pathways shortly. Hope that helps. Thanks.

Red82

11-02-2007, 09:48 PM

Yup, I drew that voluptuous Enchantress, who is actually a Marvel character and not the property of Midway games. The property error was simply made because I had also submitted a Mortal Kombat piece for the article. Sorry to disappoint you, there's no controversy there. Just a name mix up.

I drew the piece as a commission for a fan of the character. Her exaggerated features and the short sentence fit with who she is and what she does as a comic character. http://www.marvel.com/universe/Enchantress

I think the images in the article shouldn't be taken so seriously. Mine wasn't included to say that women are or should be like what I drew... and the images of the exaggerated CG character aren't there to say that ONLY men create women in such a fashion. It seems to me that some of you are focusing on individual elements of the article without really having taken in what was written.

Renee Dunlop

11-02-2007, 09:51 PM

Because it says "**** you" to me, the reader.

There was no reader when this was taken. There was no article.

Renee Dunlop

11-02-2007, 09:57 PM

You mean this one?

Because it says "**** you" to me, the reader.

EDIT:

Renee, looks like we posted almost at the same time, so I did not read your explanation of this photo until after I already posted my response. Your explanations aside, none of us - readers - can know what was on the photograph's or Charlene Eberle's mind when the photo was made, all it says to me, ESPECIALLY in the context of your article, is still just "**** you".

Well, if this really bothers you, maybe working as a VFX Sup is not so much for you as being a Producer or something. This is the environment of working on set. You get dirty, wet, tired, work very long hours, hear and see everything. If this type of photo offends you, then you know what area of the field to stay away from. If nothing else, at least that has proved helpful.

eek

11-02-2007, 10:02 PM

Its a powerful thing when a form of communication is taken out of context - you must of known there'd be a backlash to it? especially, when it concerns matters of power, employment, rights etc. It's an image relating to a person in the article - all the reader see's is someone giving the the finger, f**kyou and all to them.

How is this meant to go about firstly proving this person is professional at there job, and secondly allowing the reader to be unbiased about there opinions? - it does'nt and in doing so taints the entire article.

fuss

11-02-2007, 10:04 PM

There was no reader when this was taken. There was no article.

Yes, I got that in the meantime. Because we apparently posted at almost the same time, I did not read your explanation before posting my own response. That's why I edited my initial posting afterwards. I'll copy&paste it here again, just in case it gets overlooked:

"Renee, looks like we posted almost at the same time, so I did not read your explanation of this photo until after I already posted my response. Your explanations aside, none of us - readers - can know what was on the photographer's or Charlene Eberle's mind when the photo was made, all it says to me, ESPECIALLY in the context of your article, is still just "**** you"."

MarkD

11-02-2007, 10:06 PM

I don't think anyone is keeping women out, they just aren't interested. I have to agree, the article is trying to make an issue out of something that isn't there.

I work for a small company that makes games for girls and prides itself on not making "girl games" but games girls want to play. I'm afraid to say it but if we had two equal canidates and the only difference was that one was female, she would get the job. Maybe my perspective is scewed, maybe its because I'm not working on big buget films, but I just don't see a glass cieling. I see a ladder females aren't interested in climbing.

Not only doe the article make sweeping geralizations about men but also about women.
Men have a tendency to bond through extracurricular activities. They might go to Happy Hour, might discuss a weekend soccer game, or take in a round of golf. They compare cars or their latest electronic gizmos. All of these social interactions build a knowledge that is outside of the workplace scenario Yeah that's your "typical guy". Drunk, playing golf, and mesuring his penis with the latest tech gadget while driving 120mph down the shoulder of the freeway in his super expensive sports car. You couldn't have been any more sterotypical if you tried. I would like to know who has time for extracurricular activities? I'd also like to know how many people in the VFX industry are actually interested in those things, the people I know, aren't and work too hard to much to late into the night to really care about bonding with co workers outside of the office. Lets be clear about what will advance you in the industry, a burning passion for what you do, not golf...

Women tend to be highly creative, and also lean towards broader interests. They are less likely to suffer from color blindness.
They are also less likely to have hairy palms... VFX is not 100% creative, its a blend of technical and creative. Its the tech side that scares most women away.

Anyway, thanks for the read it was interesting, even if it was a little skewed and jaded.

Renee Dunlop

11-02-2007, 10:17 PM

Eberle: University majored in Radio and TV communications. Minor in psychology. College Fine arts degree. Eberle worked as a PA for Stargate on the pilot, then worked as a coordinator for many years, then started working in feature, and worked with A-List sups, like Ariel Shaw, Ed Jones, John Nelson, Scott Andersen, John Berton, Rich Hoover, Eric Nash. I don’t have a complete list of her projects to date or her path, but she was the VFX Sup for Garfield 2, and is now VFS Sup for Bionic Woman. She is very respected and well liked in the industry.

Goulekas: She went to college from 1980-1984, and there was no computer graphics. She started as a journalism major, then got her radio license, was the anchor woman. Opened up a campus TV station, and was the anchor woman. She was gearing her career towards news ad writing because she didn’t feel she had strong skills as an artist. Goulekas worked for PM Magazine and Channel 30 News in Connecticut for a semester each. She didn’t really like to be in front of the camera, but watched them tell the talant what to wear and how to wear their hair, and thought it looked much cooler to be behind the camera. So, before she got out of school she was hired as a Chyron operator at Channel 12. As luck would have it they bought one of the first 3D computers, the Dubner CBG2. She never took courses at school, and rejected math, and hadn’t studied any art. But you couldn’t peel her off of the system, she loved it so much. She learned enough about programming to write some basic scripts. She got a Dubner job in Boston. Over the next three years, the company went from the Dubner to the Cubicomp to Wavefront.

Her next job was in NY, and she realized she needed to study programming. She took courses at NYU, but a year later she turned to freelancing. “I was really fast, and made sure to charge $100 a day more than any other freelancers.” She had logins at every company she worked at that had Wavefront. Terminator 2 convinced her that doing Pampers commercials were perhaps a bit too boring. She took a stint as a 3D artist at the Barcelona Olympics, for which she received 2 Emmys. On return to the US in 1992, she sent reels to every company and got responses from all of them. But money was an issue, offering as little as 25% of what she was making in NY. Finally Jim Rygiel of Boss Films hired her for half her normal rate. It was a 3 month contract so her husband remained in NY while she tried it out. 2 weeks later, she called to say she had purchased rollerblades, a mountain bike, and was eyeing a Miata, and was not coming back. Her husband quit his editing job and drove cross country to join her. 10 months later Jim Cameron opened DD. Goulekas was the 10th artist hired, her husband left editing and joined DD, training in rotoscoping. Goulekas moved up to digital FX Sup, then VFX Sup. However, things at DD slowed down after Titanic was released, so Goulekas started looking for other projects. She was offered a position of (Associate) Digital FX Sup on Godzilla. She was hired, and realized after she was now on the production side rather than on the facility side, a lucky break since so many now are waiting to get a similar chance. She has worked on a ton of the top films, you should check her out on IMDb.com

Renee Dunlop

11-02-2007, 10:19 PM

Yes, I got that in the meantime. Because we apparently posted at almost the same time, I did not read your explanation before posting my own response. That's why I edited my initial posting afterwards. I'll copy&paste it here again, just in case it gets overlooked:

"Renee, looks like we posted almost at the same time, so I did not read your explanation of this photo until after I already posted my response. Your explanations aside, none of us - readers - can know what was on the photographer's or Charlene Eberle's mind when the photo was made, all it says to me, ESPECIALLY in the context of your article, is still just "**** you"."

Well, it's not. Try not to take it so personally. Remember, that is one of the messages in the article. :-)

Renee Dunlop

11-02-2007, 10:21 PM

"Sometimes a young woman is the only person in class, and feels completely isolated, or even worse, feels unwelcome."

What is this with making women victims all the time? The only person in class?? How many time would that happen?

"They are often the ones sacrificing lunch, breaks, and evenings."

Not im my experience. Women with little children are the first to go home every time. If people have to work late it's always the people without or with grown up chidren who'll do the time.

Judging by the cross section of people I spoke to, that's not so much the case in the US. However, this could be a topic worth exploring further. Thanks for your input.

Renee Dunlop

11-02-2007, 10:24 PM

Quoted for agreement.

Me too, it affects everyone in the field.

Renee Dunlop

11-02-2007, 10:31 PM

Missis Rebecka I agree totally with you and with Mister Costa. Its about each other and passion of work you can put. But its really strange that in this industry women do not populate the carreer. In my experience in Argentina we where 16 people in the class approximately, and here there was only 1 single women doing VFX. As gentelmen we make friendship with her, for us it was another classmate-friend. My experience in India we where 40 to 50 guys and there where only 4 girls in the whole TEAM. . . Also another friend that studies Videogames Bachelor in Argentina in the same place I study there´s not a single woman in the whole Bachelor. . . ALL MEN. So maybe someone can explian here something. But I know some few missis´s that do a really great jobs and really talented ladies.

Yes it´s about decision and passion for this job, and lots of heart on it.

Best regards
Rubens

Thanks, Rubens. I have a lot of numbers along those lines too. The current certification course at Gnomon has more women then men this time, a total change from every other class. Usually there are only a few at best. I was told that some female students at the Art Institute have dropped out because they felt so alienated in the classes. Even though gender is truly not an issue when you can do the work and have the talent, what it comes down to is that it seems to be an issue in getting there. And the only one who can change that is the individual involved. To me, that is really encouraging.

eirenicon

11-02-2007, 10:37 PM

Why do men outnumber women in CG? Same reason they outnumber women in any field that has long catered to those who don't mind loneliness, little to no social life, long hours, late nights, and not a little math... boys and girls are different. It's not that they can't do the same things, it's that they don't want the same things. There's really nothing stopping women from getting into CG, it just seems that more of them than guys want to do something else.

heavyness

11-02-2007, 10:48 PM

i remember someone asking me why there aren't a lot of women doing 3d modeling... i then asked them how many "My Little Pony" Lego sets have you ever seen?

fact: men and women are different. i don't know if we blame society for that, our history or what, but we're different.

raffael3d

11-02-2007, 11:06 PM

as constructive side note here 3 interviews we three successful women in the biz.

Sze Jones, and yes she models hot babes http://www.xsibase.com/articles.php?detail=110
Julianna Kolakis, just amazingly good http://www.xsibase.com/articles.php?detail=136
PeiPei Yuan, animator and breakdancer http://www.xsibase.com/articles.php?detail=137

Tama

11-02-2007, 11:55 PM

Well, if this really bothers you, maybe working as a VFX Sup is not so much for you as being a Producer or something. This is the environment of working on set. You get dirty, wet, tired, work very long hours, hear and see everything. If this type of photo offends you, then you know what area of the field to stay away from. If nothing else, at least that has proved helpful.

That's a pretty weak and downright silly defense of the photo.

Even the mods had enough sense to replace her photo on the front page with a less offensive image.

Grgeon

11-02-2007, 11:58 PM

That's a pretty weak and downright silly defense of the photo.

Even the mods had enough sense to replace her photo on the front page with a less offensive image.

I totally agree with you Tama.

-GC

RockstarKate

11-03-2007, 12:26 AM

Just caught this when re-reading the thread, and thought it worth mentioning that the very last image (http://features.cgsociety.org/stories/2007_11/women/im12.jpg), complete with the line "come... it's not much further..." and arguably the most unrealistic figure of the bunch, is actually captioned "Illustrated by Kate Bradley, character property of Midway Games."

Very true, my bad. I'll admit it. I couldn't get past the first page. I just went back to read the whole thing and apparently the "offensive" photo has been censored, which personally I find more offensive than the photo itself.

Heber

11-03-2007, 12:52 AM

wow this is a pretty poorly written article and somewhat offensive to both genders. :/

CaptainObvious

11-03-2007, 01:06 AM

A lot of people assume that you're a man unless your name clearly labels you as female. It's more amusing than offensive though when someone says "Dude, man, nice job buddy!"
You'd think that the "Kate" is a dead give-away...

mdee

11-03-2007, 01:46 AM

What's all that fuss about?

Woman, man, alien, whoever.. it's all about personality and skill, until, of course there is some electricity sparkling after hours... :twisted:, but even that won't alter work relationships in any way.
The lady pointing finger.. I don't know her in person, but if she has guts and reason to do that, I assume she has got a strong personality and something to say, I'd rather prefer to work for/with people like that... no matter what gender they are.

I think people who feel uncomfortable working with women or try to discriminate women in any way, have rather serious issues with their confidence.

RockstarKate

11-03-2007, 01:59 AM

You'd think that the "Kate" is a dead give-away...

Yes, you would think that, and you would be surprised :)

ZeroNeuro

11-03-2007, 02:29 AM

From my experience in the industry so far, I have worked with many great artists. Some of who just happen to be female. Very few of them were militant or angry people ;)

I do not think this article is applicable in the United States. Not from what I have seen. You have 'lushes' working in the industry who try to flirt and get ahead by degrading themselves sure... But you get just as many guys doing that as gals. :D

I think that the obvious aversion to the photograph of the attractive lady shooting the finger, comes not from any negativity in the way she looks... but that in fact, it is almost a stereotypical portrayal of 'individuality' that usually goes along with a feminist article. I think that the article itself could very well be its own contradiction. The images used along with the content of the article were not too far from being what you would 'expect' to be used in an argument proving that men demean and objectify women.

Personally, I just don't see gender as an issue. Not here anyway. I think we have come a long way from that ideology. And I have had the honor to work with many fine artists. Whether they are men or women? Not an issue. I never have said, "You know, for a woman she's a great artist." And to be honest, I have not seen that kind of thinking in this industry.

Cheers,
Ritchie L. Roberts

sinic

11-03-2007, 02:36 AM

dont post much but.....
what a shithouse feature article. rubbish.

mummey

11-03-2007, 02:52 AM

http://features.cgsociety.org/story_custom.php?story_id=1752

Thank you Mike for finding that. I could of sworn I remembered one a few years back but didn't remember the details.

-b

angel

11-03-2007, 02:57 AM

For what is worth, the second I saw the one finguer salute photo I hit the back button. Not that it offended me, I'm not easily offended but by seeing that picture it lead me to belive there was nothing constructive there... it was a strong bad first impresion.

-dc-

11-03-2007, 02:58 AM

This is the worst article I've ever seen regarding the CG business. CG Society should pull the article and put in it's place an apology.

It makes me wonder about their credibility. We have plenty of women supervisors and producers at Imageworks (in fact, we have more women exec. producers than men).

And of all the people to chose, you chose Karen Goulekas, who has one of the worst reputations in the business and can't step foot anywhere in LA.

Write better articles, or don't write them at all.

Sarford

11-03-2007, 04:27 AM

I must say that I'm quite offended by the images of the 3D bimbo's with the "Why industry needs more female 3D animators"

What is this, male 3D animators can only model and animate crude CG chicks with barly any clothes on? I think its sexistic and pretty degrading to male animators!

The persons who made that surly doesn't think much of male animators.

I think it shows bad taste to choose these pictures in the context of this article...

Rebeccak

11-03-2007, 04:55 AM

Well, I've got to give big props to Renee for responding in a rational and reasonable way to a very inflammatory (and overreactive, imho) thread. I think though at this point people are starting to state the same opinions over and over (yes, we know that no one likes the message the original middle finger image sent, and yes, we know that the article has its flaws). At this point I think it's time to retire this thread...after all it's the weekend, let's all disperse and get back to our normal lives. :)

Renee Dunlop

11-03-2007, 06:03 AM

Thank you, Rebecca.

I do have plenty of information that will help anyone get into the field, offered by the people that do the hiring. For those of you who posted an opinion without reading the article, please do read it and feel free to ask me questions, I will pass along whatever information I can. That’s why I worked so hard to gather as much as I did, and I want to thank everybody that was so generous in helping me do that. The article is NOT inflammatory, the only finger it pointed was in that one photo. ;-)

And for the record, I have nothing to do with the selection of photos.

Renee Dunlop

11-03-2007, 06:03 AM

repeat post

RubenDrakkar

11-03-2007, 06:19 AM

I think that we should see how women "SWALLOW" VFX, or see this different approach from art. For example we where playing videogames with some male friends and we where 7 guys and 3 ladies, suddenly they got really bored, they can chat or do other things, it seems that ladies are not attracted to videogames, specifically on this field. I was on a Cinema Course and again the same situation more MEN less LADIES. So. . .something is there. . .something is not really matching. So I need to know if, we all are agree about gender isnt an ISSUE, but as BEEN MEN AND WOMEN, which are the inherit things that MEN and WOMEN look or search at their particular gender tastes?

Again the case of this Institute I was in Argentina, the students where almost all MALE but. . . our particular Academic Advisors where all women not a single male. . . so it brings into my mind how the same "INDUSTRY" makes some categorization there.

I leave now
RUbens

Renee Dunlop

11-03-2007, 06:40 AM

So I need to know if, we all are agree about gender isnt an ISSUE, but as BEEN MEN AND WOMEN, which are the inherit things that MEN and WOMEN look or search at their particular gender tastes?

Again the case of this Institute I was in Argentina, the students where almost all MALE but. . . our particular Academic Advisors where all women not a single male. . . so it brings into my mind how the same "INDUSTRY" makes some categorization there.

I leave now
RUbens

I want to make sure I follow your question first. Are you asking what men and women look for in the industry? If that much is correct, do you mean when they are looking for jobs? Or when someone is looking to hire?

As far as games, I haven't researched them yet. They are an entirely different area than film, and deserve their own focus.

Thanks.

mummey

11-03-2007, 07:52 AM

Well, rather than focus on the negative, I'm going to take this moment to mention a producer I had a chance to see speak a month or two back.

Gnomon & Sony Imageworks dedicated a night to presentations of Surf's Up and the first to present was co-producer Lydia Bottegoni (http://imdb.com/name/nm0098647/). It is unusual to have a producer speak at a vfx presentation but she had her own vfx experience on movies such as Spiderman, Stuart Little, and Sphere to back her up so she knew the crowd she was dealing with.

Her talk was by far the most interesting, if at the very least it demonstrated how post-production and vfx fits into the "grand-scheme" of the production, something you rarely see in an industry talk.

Though being a producer is something I have little interest in, I hope to have the chance to hear more talks like this in the future.

Kai01W

11-03-2007, 12:49 PM

The reactions this article stirs up seem to tell more than the article itself...

And about that photo.... gosh you are easily upset. Sometimes I quite like a little punk attitude. I worked with these type of women in that field (directors/editors) and it was a pleasure to do so. Some heavy rough fun.

Why do men outnumber women in CG? Same reason they outnumber women in any field that has long catered to those who don't mind loneliness, little to no social life, long hours, late nights, and not a little math... boys and girls are different. It's not that they can't do the same things, it's that they don't want the same things. There's really nothing stopping women from getting into CG, it just seems that more of them than guys want to do something else.

I mainly agree but then you still have this kind of idiots that say women can't model cause they have worse spatial sense than men!

-k

Carina

11-03-2007, 01:00 PM

RubenDrakkar

11-03-2007, 03:09 PM

I want to make sure I follow your question first. Are you asking what men and women look for in the industry? If that much is correct, do you mean when they are looking for jobs? Or when someone is looking to hire?

As far as games, I haven't researched them yet. They are an entirely different area than film, and deserve their own focus.

Thanks.

It seems to be about the roll they are into, in the case of India I was supervising 3 ladies as texture artist then there was another lady on particle sistem then it was another girl who was proyect manager and our supreme boss which was the owner of the company which was also a woman. . .Also I state before the Academic Advisors in Argentina all women, in the job there not a single woman doing 3d stuffs for movies, one was a pencil artist, the other one an editor then other ladies in organizational fields there where like three or four.

I think the roll or the position also its the issue here. " MAYBE " ladies are more into administrative and organizational part, which I believe that its the part in MEN´s life that keeps everything on its place. (AS MY FAMILY WE ARE DAD, TWO BROTHERS, MYSELF AND THE QUEEN MY MOM) so as I said she keeps everything on place.

any opinions?

Rubens

RockstarKate

11-03-2007, 04:46 PM

I work in games and the female/male ratio in my office is probably about one in ten.

Do I find it strange? Not in the slightest. Does it make me uncomfortable? Not in the slightest.

If I'm in the pub with a group of people and conversation turns to workplaces, the reactions are always pretty predictable. Many of the blokes will be very interested and within a few minutes a games discussion will be in full swing, whereas most women I know will go "oh.. cool!" then glaze over if the discussions goes into any great detail.

I know this is very much a generalisation, but if you look at the female/male ratio in who actually plays the majority of games that come out, or at least the ones that are passionately interested in games, it's not particularly surprising that the workforce in the games industry is predominantly male..

At this point I was going to go on and comment on how the VFX industry will be similar, but I read the article again and I'm just confused. I'm not sure what the actual message is, so it's difficult to argue with it. I just find this sort of topic exasperating, and somewhat offensive to women in general. But maybe I'm just too dense to realise I should feel victimised.

I agree completely. Everything in your post applies to me too, except that I'm not making games, I'm working in visual communication, mostly for the courtroom. Most women I know do not play games, but I've been playing games since I was a kid. Right now I'm playing guitar hero 3 :)
I do think that has a lot to do with why I got interested in 3D and CG in general. And I also find that men in general, whether they are in the industry or not, are a lot more interested when I talk about my job. A lot of men think its cool or interesting, but most women seem a little confused about what it's all about.
I really do think that has a lot to do with whether or not you play games. Why women don't play games is a different question entirely.

I take issue with this:
"Men have a tendency to bond through extracurricular activities. They might go to Happy Hour, might discuss a weekend soccer game, or take in a round of golf. They compare cars or their latest electronic gizmos. All of these social interactions build a knowledge that is outside of the workplace scenario."

That's hilarious. I work with about 40 engineers, most of whom are men. They ALL have children. None of them go out to Happy Hour. I'd love to go out to Happy Hour! I'm a 29 year old woman and I'm the only person without children in the whole place. I'm just saying that this stereotype is totally wrong. My female friends who work in other fields together all go out and hang out together after work.

"Noone would hate to make cool art for movies. So why are so few applying for the education? It appears the girls that are coming out of high school still tend to suffer some fears and insecurities related to gender bias. Though this is becoming less of an issue every day, it still exists. Young women still tend to cluster in groups. This does well to support each other, but why limit yourself from the very beginning of your career?"

This is totally untrue, at least in the US. The number of women graduating from college is higher than the number of men (58% of Bachelors Degrees were earned by women in 2004 (http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/womcolge.htm)). Women out-perform men in grades and attendance in high school and college. This is well known and widely reported. I've read many articles about it. I don't think fear or insecurity is holding too many of us back these days :)

Sometimes a young woman is the only person in class, and feels completely isolated, or even worse, feels unwelcome. Is this a real perception, or a false one? And the even bigger question is, why would any girl care?

I've been the only woman in many classes or one of a few. I never felt strange about it. If anything, I felt sort of proud! I don't feel I was discriminated against in any way. So, I'd say that is a false perception.

With the opportunities that await, the nearly unlimited directions that one could take, and an industry that is begging for women to take this chance, why would anyone want to deny themselves such an opportunity?

Like I said, I don't think it is fear or insecurity, just a lack of interest and awareness.

The whole article is just really full of untrue and offensive stereotypes. It's more offensive to men than women. Most of the members of this site are men, so obviously it was going to cause a stir.

Carina

11-03-2007, 04:52 PM

Like I said, I don't think it is fear or insecurity, just a lack of interest and awareness.

That's it there, in a nutshell.

slime

11-03-2007, 09:01 PM

Terrible "article", but spawned some very interesting replies, like RockstarKate's.

I personally think that precisely because of the ratio, it has more advantages to be a woman than a man in this field; almost every company will hire a female candidate instead of a male if boths candidates have the exact same qualifications. And it makes sense.

About the discrimination / "glass ceiling" / etc, I really think that is almost inexistant. Most of the people in the field are intelligent enough not to treat women any different from men, if something, - like I said before - because of the ratio, they will treat them better :)

CaptainObvious

11-03-2007, 10:35 PM

Like I said, I don't think it is fear or insecurity, just a lack of interest and awareness.
I have to jump on the bandwagon and agree with this as well.

None of them go out to Happy Hour. I'd love to go out to Happy Hour!
If you happen to be in London on a friday night, stop by Cityscape! Happy hour! :buttrock: The vast majority of my coworkers, men and women alike, are very sociable, and "bond through extra-curricular activities" (read: partying).

In a male-dominated industry like this, there are bound to be certain, shall we say, preconceptions, in certain workplaces. But really, I haven't noticed much of a problem. Computer graphics is primarily a meritocracy.

Layer01

11-04-2007, 01:37 AM

This article made no sense, why did it have all the pics of voluptuous CG women!??! what did that have to do with anything!? It'd be like having an article on the negative effect of how women are portrayed by the media...in playboy magazine!!...just retarded.

Renee Dunlop

11-04-2007, 01:14 AM

post removed for editing

Renee Dunlop

11-04-2007, 01:48 AM

It seems to be about the roll they are into, in the case of India I was supervising 3 ladies as texture artist then there was another lady on particle sistem then it was another girl who was proyect manager and our supreme boss which was the owner of the company which was also a woman. . .Also I state before the Academic Advisors in Argentina all women, in the job there not a single woman doing 3d stuffs for movies, one was a pencil artist, the other one an editor then other ladies in organizational fields there where like three or four.

I think the roll or the position also its the issue here. " MAYBE " ladies are more into administrative and organizational part, which I believe that its the part in MEN´s life that keeps everything on its place. (AS MY FAMILY WE ARE DAD, TWO BROTHERS, MYSELF AND THE QUEEN MY MOM) so as I said she keeps everything on place.

any opinions?

Rubens

First, thanks for the question. Based on the interviews, the general consensus was that some women just prefer various tasks, and therefore lean towards certain directions. That might be why some departments wind up with more women, and others wind up with more men. It’s just the differences in gender wiring from years of survival behaviors that have been incorporated into today’s society. However, there are those who might be potentially extremely skilled who don’t go in the direction they really want to. Could be a lot of talent out there is wasted from all genders because of social pressures, self esteem, and poor training. It seems the only way to address the new talent entering education, or those still finishing high school is to convince them that they can do this.

The only two things that were consistently required for any of the positions were, one) talent and knowledge and two) being easy to work with. Though a broader range might get to enter the field, they do not advance due to lacking one or both of the above, and often stay in the same level until they are either fired, laid off, or get sick of what they assume is a lack of recognition. It seems that instead, they are simply used up till they go away, as it is with any field. As one interviewee put it, there can only be a few chiefs, and the rest are destined to be Indians.

shmooel

11-04-2007, 02:11 AM

So call me sexist or whatever you wish, It sounds like you got caught trying to push a view that isn't true. I think the main issue is; that I (I will speak for myself) have nothing against any woman working in the field. I find them to be a welcome addition to any team. But I cannot fix their perceptions or the way they feel about anything. I could go out of my way to make them feel like they are welcome but the fact remains that we are fundamentally different. The same Jokes are not going to work with a woman as they do with other Men. The same likes and dislikes are not going to be there all the time. You just cannot change this. So when people say this is a pointless article, it is. Instead of backlashing towards those who don't agree with your opinion, why not take the time to find out why they think it "isn't" the way you have portrayed it? You say you did your research did you attempt to find out what the overall opinion of the industry was? It sounds like you didn't.

LopezDeVictoria

11-04-2007, 08:32 AM

when i saw this article the first time i thought it would mention how everywhere in art galleries, books and museums females are very often the subject but its not the same when you look at the artists ... if you go through an expose, or even these forums and read the indexed credits you could see the vast difference. i'm letting anybody just look for themselves and compare how many women artists are being awarded compared to men... i guess they missed the point and just kept writing nonsense in this article. and i saw some posts here that didn't make any sense either >.>
anybody that says females are pampered on any job is very horribly wrong. the ones i work with are constantly struggling to break away from this assumption and you can see them working as hard as anybody. a graduate from my school went over to give animation students an inside look at how she worked for Dreamworks as a 3d modeler. she had crunch time with her coworkers, she had models she worked on for weeks cancelled on post-production just like anybody else and still she struggles, nothing was given to her without working for it.
in my school is like hell: men and women both just hacking at each other on the same stupid theme "i think i could make a really hot babe wear some platinum bikinis and wield a cool sword!!" and this came from a girl in game design working on her demo reel, but i've heard this and worse from males too... so it is very stressful to think a human being can go so low.
i agree on most people's posts, this article wasn't well written. it won't change a thing, though... heh, this kinds of things make me want to travel to some deserted area and stop hearing and seeing all the bs, since it will just keep going on and on in an endless circle of angry replies

spurcell

11-04-2007, 01:07 PM

Thank you Mike for finding that. I could of sworn I remembered one a few years back but didn't remember the details.

-b

the best thing about that article? Look how adorable leigh looked back in 03.

soriah

11-04-2007, 01:52 PM

What an interesting article to read, I can see how the men are quickly throwing this as a feminist point of view and quickly rejecting its actual truth that there are less females. I think the article missed a beat a little and i think that there are less females because its socialy harder.

I'm a female in a male dominated industry. I have always been that one token female thats stuck it through and believe me i have given up a lot to follow my passion. I am a web designer and I also work casually on a Internet helpdesk of which i am the only female.

I dont beleive there is much sexisim in the way the company hires or treats females although i can only speak from my own experiences and i have not yet encounted this form mistreatment.

I beleive there are less women in the feild of cg because its socially harder. The fact of the matter is we will never truely be one of the blokes no matter how many happy hours we attend. In my helpdesk role i am respected by the men however i still havent been invited to hang out with them socialy at one of their movie/TV nights of which i know takes place because they talk about it at work. I feel alienated when this happens but there is nothing that i can do but drop major hints that i like the same stuff and hope i get invited or invite myself by asking "can i come too?". It will take months of work before i am invited along by one of them.

playmesumch00ns

11-04-2007, 02:27 PM

What an interesting article to read, I can see how the men are quickly throwing this as a feminist point of view and quickly rejecting its actual truth that there are less females.

You needed an article to tell you that there are less females than males in a computing-based industry? Seriously?

Boone

11-04-2007, 03:22 PM

I was watching a program on the tv about doctors who started in the NHS back in the early 80s, and the BBC have kept an eye on them since then to see where their careers ended up today. One of them was a woman who didnt seem to be advancing up the ladder even though her performance suggested otherwise. It would be interesting to see if this experiment can be applied to the CG industry.

It may appear to be a bit of work now, but the report could be beneficial to others in the years ahead.

gnarlycranium

11-05-2007, 12:04 AM

What a terrible article. More like Angry Feminists in VFX..........What. No, seriously, WHAT? :curious:

There are countless reasons why women don't flock to this industry which are very easy to identify such as stupid work hours, inconsistent benefits and pay due to down time between projects, horror stories everywhere you look in the news and etc. Also crunch time for games and movies is extremely stressful, only people with a passion for it will willingly jump on for that ride. Also because the field is so male dominated it might turn many women off who would be perfectly capable of being above average in the industry.

I hate the broad generalizations...yes, women and men are different, that's why they're called women and not men...........What does this even MEAN? Are you hearing yourself? You hate generalizations, yet here you are making a big stinking pile of them. Why should specifically women care if the hours are stressful? What, like that doesn't bug the guys too??? And what is this about passion, anyway? Like women don't have that?? These 'easily identified' reasons of yours are either nonexistent or complete BS. Except the bit about the male-dominated environment turning some off from joining, that's the only angle that makes any darn sense.

I was featured in Leigh's past article (the main image at the top of it is mine)-- although I'm still just a student-- and I don't think much has changed since then. Yes, this topic gets brought up regularly. That's because it IS an issue. There is a major imbalance in this industry-- not a small, ignorable one, but a major one. This merits some examination, as the reasons are still not fully understood. The reactions the topic gets show VERY clearly that there is a problem. Sure, the article does meander a bit, and the inevitable 'multitasking' generalization does kinda bug me-- but what could possibly justify this thread's flood of juvenile attacks and bitterness? In the past I've tackled some discussions of this sort on the forums, and been called a pretty tall stack of ridiculous schoolyard names for daring to open my mouth. Frankly if that's ANY indication of the reaction women get when they try to speak up on their opinions in the workplace I guess that would explain a few things-- but I am going to assume that people so argumentative and insulting wouldn't get very far in the industry to begin with, and in that case must be bored trolls who don't really count.

I believe it when Renee says that these women did not encounter any real resistance, and to me this is probably the most important piece of information in the entire article. That and the part about the difference in wages, although there were too few subjects to really represent a usable statistic-- I would be VERY interested to know how this stuff measures up overall. More information on these artists' backgrounds and thoughts would be cool, are there interviews that can be posted?

ZeroNeuro

11-05-2007, 02:19 AM

I suppose what we should look at really are what draws men to the industry, what differences there are in interests between men and women... and what makes people think that there is a bias these days. When, from everything I have experienced thus far, seems to indicate that the only issue I can see in this industry are in numbers.

So, when I post this paragraph please do not jump on me :D

When men get together we talk mostly about games, movies, music, sports, cars, girls (I'm being honest at least), computers, electronics, and other topics that are linked in some way to this industry. These are our common interests usually. I personally like poetry, art, and food as well. But aside from the occasional recipe or mention of the best places to eat it never really becomes a huge topic.

Now, never having been disguised as a woman and sitting in with a group of women in discussion, I am not aware of what interests are shared in conversation. I do not know if they talk about the same things. However, whenever I talk about some of these things to a lady I can usually tell that I am boring her to tears. Not in all cases mind you. But usually in a group of guys and girls the two genders split off and talk amongst themselves if there is a fairly equal split in numbers.

Now, having seen that men and women may have different interests; perhaps the reason for the difference in numbers in the workplace in this industry is a lack of interest?

I don't want to cause any kind of stir or anger. I'm only saying that men and women are different, with different interests. And that maybe that is why there are more men who get into this industry, in our positions on a team. It certainly cannot be a victimized feeling from where I have seen. The ladies I have worked with were all equally good in their jobs as the gentlemen. In the US, I do not know if the sentiments are just not as apparent or what it is really. But I have definitely never heard anything like what is being described in that article. I HAVE seen a bit of sexual harassment (From both men and women) and the issues were dealt with in equal measure and fairly.

Maybe I'm blind, or naïve. Maybe I just have no idea because I personally do not see men or women as better than the other. But there ARE differences between the genders. That's biological. Doesn't make one stronger than the other. It just makes us different.

In my case, I am an obsessive workaholic. Even when I am not at work, I am thinking of new techniques and new workflows. I spend some personal time trying to perfect the way I work. I'll spend a sunday afternoon at the computer doing personal projects. Etc. :)

(hoping I do not need an asbestos suit)
-Ritchie

Aneks

11-05-2007, 03:34 AM

withdrawn. why bother !?

gnarlycranium

11-05-2007, 05:49 AM

When men get together we talk mostly about games, movies, music, sports, cars, girls (I'm being honest at least), computers, electronics, and other topics that are linked in some way to this industry. These are our common interests usually. I personally like poetry, art, and food as well. But aside from the occasional recipe or mention of the best places to eat it never really becomes a huge topic.

Now, never having been disguised as a woman and sitting in with a group of women in discussion, I am not aware of what interests are shared in conversation. I do not know if they talk about the same things. However, whenever I talk about some of these things to a lady I can usually tell that I am boring her to tears. Not in all cases mind you. But usually in a group of guys and girls the two genders split off and talk amongst themselves if there is a fairly equal split in numbers.-RitchieWhen you REALLY dig down to the guts of the machine, there's a difference in the way men and women are brought up, which puts a slant on things somewhat-- women aren't expected to butt heads as much to have a good time, and get to cry in public on occasion without as much hassle, and JUST THAT BY ITSELF is probably the main thing that creates differences. Guys are encouraged to engage in more violent social activities, and women are pressured in other directions that don't result in quite so many hours of Mortal Kombat and zombie movies.

That aside, I don't really think that men and women naturally have different interests, in any way that can be easily generalized. The women I know don't sit around and talk about needlepoint, and the men I know don't sit around and talk about cars. One thing to remember-- and this is very important-- is that the guys who get into CG are themselves an unusual type of person, and don't represent that large a slice of men to begin with. This throws the discussion with a whole new convoluted take on apples and oranges.

I do think the vast majority of CG-utilizing games and films are marketed specifically to a certain segment of teenaged boys-- and it is through those channels that most of us got into the CG industry. That is probably the single biggest factor in the gender imbalance, one that reinforces itself because this segment of teenaged boys tend to grow up to market things towards more of the same type of teenaged boys.

Me personally? MY interests are the same as most people I see on these boards and at siggraph. I was amazed when I first stepped into this community and found myself among people who can practically finish each other's sentences-- we watch the same movies, read the same books, tell the same jokes. We are a very narrow, specialized slice of society. OTHER women, not in this field, are more different from ME than I am different from the MEN I share these interests with.

I have never felt discouraged or actively discriminated against-- to the contrary, the response to my presence is generally positive, although I haven't yet tested this in the workplace dealing with promotions and office politics. HOWEVER. I do occasionally get very frustrated with the skewed subject matter in CG, the boob babes and so on, and when I speak up, I have been insulted. This is a problem I chalk up to ignorance-- sorry to generalize, but no, a lot of these guys do not understand how this stuff seems from a woman's perspective.

I was not offended by the article. I definitley found it overtly sexist and childishly unbalanced in it's prejudice. I have no intention of offending or personally criticising the author for writting it. They obviously felt they had something to contribute with it. On a personal level I am thoroughly in support of those who voiced their objection to it. There is a worrying trend in our society that people, male and female, feel inclined to remain silent on issues of gender, race and religion simply because they feel their own personal opinion does not meet the "acceptable" norm.How is the article prejudiced? And how would deleting it make anyone feel safer to express their own personal opinion???

Pyke

11-05-2007, 07:11 AM

Slightly OT, but they had a discussion on the radio the other day about woman in the corporate world, and why their salaries arent equal to those of men. The reason had nothing to do with sexism in the workplace, or the fact that woman are seen as 'inferior' to men...but rather that men are more agressive in salary negotiations. Just some food for thought. ;)

Carina

11-05-2007, 08:16 AM

When you REALLY dig down to the guts of the machine, there's a difference in the way men and women are brought up, which puts a slant on things somewhat-- women aren't expected to butt heads as much to have a good time, and get to cry in public on occasion without as much hassle, and JUST THAT BY ITSELF is probably the main thing that creates differences. Guys are encouraged to engage in more violent social activities, and women are pressured in other directions that don't result in quite so many hours of Mortal Kombat and zombie movies.

That aside, I don't really think that men and women naturally have different interests, in any way that can be easily generalized. The women I know don't sit around and talk about needlepoint, and the men I know don't sit around and talk about cars.

I disagree, first of all most girls I know weren't pressurised into playing with barbie dolls or cry in public.. And for crying out loud, most boys aren't given gold stars for their violent social activities. Yes, groups of boys influence other boys when you're young, and vice versa, but that doesn't mean that they only do things because of pressure from peers or society.

If we are generalising, and let's admit it, there is no way on earth you can talk about this sort of topic and keep every single individual in mind, women and men are just wired differently. This doesn't mean that girls can't play with boys and vice versa, or anything like it, just that we tend to have slightly different interests (as groups, not as individuals).

Noone in this thread has even indicated that women sit around and talk about needlepoint all day. Similarly, noone says all men just talk about cars. Outside of the women I know on these forums and at work, I can seriously say that I can't think of a single female in my extended group of friends who particularly cares about vfx or games. They play games, watch films, yes. But do they sit around talking about them? Nope. Do they get slightly bored when I do? Yep.

No one is saying every individual is carefully placed in a box marked "girl" or "boy" when they're born and then stay in it when it comes to every single interest in their life. But I honestly don't get the sensationalism here.. Of course not as many girls are going to be working in the industry, when there aren't as many girls that find the industry particularly interesting in the first place...

Artbot

11-05-2007, 08:29 AM

I'm with Carina on this: I can't figure out what this article is saying. First, it seems borderline anecdotal to focus on fx supes and fx producers. These are rarified jobs that tend to attract both men and women who have a passion for film technology and leadership skills and who have dedicated their lives to the industry. I would venture that there are probably only a few thousand of these jobs out there, so it may not be the best field to discuss what gender inequalities mean to these industries. Yet it's often spoken of as these people having "chosen" to do do these jobs, but these are not the type of jobs where you wake up one day and decide to be an fx producer.

The article is aimless in that it doesn't report or expand on anything that would offer any insight into the supposed inequalities that prevent women from attaining equal status among men. These aren't case studies, they're more like promotional bios. Again, what's the point? With all due respect, the author's responses to the comments here are just as weak and pointless as the article, sometimes with even less foundation.

I missed out on the middle finger pic (and I realize you say it was not your choice to include it), but this has to be the height of editorial myopism. C'mon! Some fx supe flipping the bird!? Pul-eeze! Johnny Cash spent 50 years being a rebel and a musical genius and probably nearly died on multiple occasions and went through a transformational hell few of us would ever know or survive. He can flip off the camera. Some yuppie fx nerd (woman or man) cannot. No respectable senior supe or ceo would ever let himself be photographed flipping the bird, so why is it deemed appropriate when attempting to illustrate that "women are tough, too!", or whatever it's supposed to mean?

A far more interesting and relevant issue to explore on this forum would be a discussion of how family life affects these industries and its practices. Every mention of "women in this business" mentions the issues around having children, but they seldom explore them. Typically it's dismissed much as it was in this article - if you want kids, don't choose this career.

Want another appropriate and far more relevant topic to write about? Ageism in the fx & games industry. It's seldom even mentioned, but as the industry ages, what happens to these people in a business built on pasty, arrested adolescent geeks with no life outside of the office? The games and digital fx industries both exploded in the early to mid 90's, so an exploration of where all those older artists and engineers are going would be much more timely than another "women at the glass ceiling" article.

katisss

11-05-2007, 09:35 AM

I don't see the point about going to after hours or hanging out with colleagues after work at all.
There is nothing wrong with my colleagues but seeing them 40-50 hours a week with is pretty much enough for me. Sacrificing your lunch break wont help your career much.
The women and men brain blabla is proven to be nonsense.

I have personally not experienced any problems. Respect is earned as they said.
I quite often have colleageues not beliving my advice even if they are dead wrong.
Usually they come back after they see it's not working.

Ruramuq

11-05-2007, 09:57 AM

Both genres are radically different,and kind of opposite, the quality one possesses is usually something the other does not possess. there are women who wants to be men(feminism), and men who wants to posess female¡s natural qualities like social skills for example.

The human brain is mainly instinct, with very specific and complex purposes. for example intelligence and personality are biological/superficial characteristics inherited for a reason.

woman and men are different as flexibility vs strength are. so usually one cannot possess both by nature.
We don't see many women here, perhaps because they have a brain focused more in social skills than technological skills. which requires to stay in front of a computer, boring for most women, And especially because it would require a radical change in most women's life to become really good in CG. the same applies not only to CG, but let's say with firefighters, Polices, technicians, scientifics, doctors.etc I think that is a global tendendy, not only CG. The brain differences of male/female are predominant. so this is mainly a biological matter.Though I hope to see much more girls involved in CG, in future..
·

Carina

11-05-2007, 10:12 AM

there are women who wants to be men(feminism)

Deary me.. that's opening a can of worms for sure;)

Boone

11-05-2007, 10:16 AM

And there are men who want to be women - car insurance is much cheaper under Shelia's wheels!:D

Megann

11-05-2007, 10:29 AM

I disagree, first of all most girls I know weren't pressurised into playing with barbie dolls or cry in public.. And for crying out loud, most boys aren't given gold stars for their violent social activities. Yes, groups of boys influence other boys when you're young, and vice versa, but that doesn't mean that they only do things because of pressure from peers or society.

This is true. Nobody is holding guns to the heads of girls and tells them they had better play with barbiedolls or else.. However it is no secret that the advertisement for barbiedolls is aimed at girls alone. Never will you see a boy feature in a commercial for barbiadolls.

Likewise boys are punish when they are fighting, however there are few parents or friends of boys who will support them if they don't fight back. One often hears the phrase: "You are such a girl!" This is then aimed at the boy who cries instead of fights when other kids are bothering him.

Just look at the toys being advertised for boys and girls. You will find that at least 75% of them at aimed at a specific gender and depicts the boys and girls as vastly different. This starts from a very early age and can have a huge influence in the developing interests of children, especially of you also look at the pressure they put on eachother. (Popular kid decides what the current trend is.)

If we are generalising, and let's admit it, there is no way on earth you can talk about this sort of topic and keep every single individual in mind, women and men are just wired differently. This doesn't mean that girls can't play with boys and vice versa, or anything like it, just that we tend to have slightly different interests (as groups, not as individuals).

Yes there is no reason that they can't play with eachother, however in the different kinds of toys and games that are being advertised it doesn't help to promote the kids to play together. I do believe that there is a difference between men and women, however I don't know if that difference is taught or biological. At the moment I believe that a great deal is learned behavior.

Noone in this thread has even indicated that women sit around and talk about needlepoint all day. Similarly, noone says all men just talk about cars. Outside of the women I know on these forums and at work, I can seriously say that I can't think of a single female in my extended group of friends who particularly cares about vfx or games. They play games, watch films, yes. But do they sit around talking about them? Nope. Do they get slightly bored when I do? Yep.

I found this to be not true. I found a great deal of women play games. In discussions when the guys are not around plenty of women have told me the types of games they play and why they like them. However when guys join the conversation, the women quickly become silent. I don't know why this is.

No one is saying every individual is carefully placed in a box marked "girl" or "boy" when they're born and then stay in it when it comes to every single interest in their life. But I honestly don't get the sensationalism here.. Of course not as many girls are going to be working in the industry, when there aren't as many girls that find the industry particularly interesting in the first place...

I wonder where this inerest comes from. At first when computer enter the picture you see young kids, both boys and girls sitting behind the computer enjoying themselves. At a later it is mostly guys. So it is not that the interest isn't there. Somewhere along the line it gets lost.

My mom has recently started to take an interest in computers. For many years I ave been trying to get her interested, however without much luck. Now she is starting this on her on without anyone interfering or trying to do things for her. She is really enjoying herself. I suppose the fact that it is all her own doing really helps.

I do get the impression that most women are intimidated by technology and the fact that it is such a male dominated world. When I asked my mom why she would not work with a computer she would generally shrug her shoulders and say that it is not her world. So something was keeping her from it. Perhaps the male-geek-stereotype is what is scaring a lot of women off.

Also if you look at the Nintendo Wii games for example. They are marketing some of those to be aimed specifically at women. I have heard it mentioned numerous times on this thread that women don't want "pink" boxes, yet this doesn't stop marketeers though. Why? Is there evidence to suggest that these tactics work afterall? If it doesn't work to market or develop certain games specifically at women, then why are people still doing this?

Carina

11-05-2007, 10:40 AM

I found this to be not true. I found a great deal of women play games. In discussions when the guys are not around plenty of women have told me the types of games they play and why they like them. However when guys join the conversation, the women quickly become silent. I don't know why this is.

I'll just point out I never said women don't play games, I said they are a great deal less interested in talking about them than men *in general*. I'm also not implying they don't talk about them full stop, just that I very very rarely hear women discuss game in the technical detail I hear men do.

Megann

11-05-2007, 10:49 AM

I'll just point out I never said women don't play games, I said they are a great deal less interested in talking about them than men *in general*. I'm also not implying they don't talk about them full stop, just that I very very rarely hear women discuss game in the technical detail I hear men do.

Perhaps that is what causes women to be more quiet. They will not venture into technical discussions. I imagine also, because on average they don't know that much about it and are reluctant to look into it.

Megann

11-05-2007, 10:54 AM

RockstarKate

11-05-2007, 03:20 PM

You can't even mention the word "feminism" without sparking a nasty fight. This goes for everywhere, not just the CG world and not just the internet. The word means something different to everyone who hears it. To me it means equality regardless of gender and I would call myself a "Feminist". But to a lot of people, they think it means man-hating, lesbianism, women who "want to be men" and over-sensitive militant attitudes.

Let's not let this thread degrade into an argument about the word "Feminism". The issue is much bigger than one field where women are under-represented.

Ruramuq

11-05-2007, 07:28 PM

Oh deary me. You may want to read this first before making such statements: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism

And also:
Men have no social skills? Or have less of them? Huh? Did I read that correctly? It is not a natural quality in men?

No, I'll explain: I didn't say men have no social skills, I said social skills is a natural quality in women(by nature). This is something very clear, woman personality, comunication, speed of processing of words,... all kinds of subtle details about expresssion, are very good habilities in women, that are inherited naturally, in a sense of biology. quatities that men can have/develop/ or already possess, but in general not by nature. Men have other qualities by nature.
Women personality is much more flexible since puberty, that is a brain characteristic that is equal to the fact that women muscles are more flexible, I'm just pointing natural tendencies, BOTH genders are equally capable. but not with a natural tendency(biology).

feminism
n. doctrine which advocates total equality between women and men in all areas of life;

I'am radically against feminism, because it introduces discussion instead of solution, and it proposes the dead of the genders, and especially because it hides behind the phrase "same rights for everyone", feminism is the same as"machismo", a no sense.
the original concept of woman or man, is not anymore valid for many humans. but you can see the basic representation of genders in different species of animals. that's a clear behaviour, represented probably since million of years, that has nothing to do with rights. Feminists trying to overcome biology, are simply trying to destroy their own gender instead of enforce it, because there is no way to claim equality in every aspect of life and at the same time preserve the gender, that is impossible.

I like differences, and I think both genres deserve the same rights, but BOTH, and accepting biology as something natural, and not as something imposed by one gender.

WIKIPEDIA: In recent times some women and men have distanced from the term "femin"ism in favor of more inclusive terminology such as "equal rights activist/advocate", "equalist" or similar non-gendered phrasings

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dneg

11-05-2007, 09:11 PM

This thread is hillarious! I love all the posts about "women aren't technical" or "get bored" with tech stuff. You should come and meet some of my technical leads, they seem to have aquired a slew of physics and engineering degrees and yet are strangely unequipped with male genitalia... Seriously though, anyone who makes professional decisions based on such generalised preconceptions will, in the long term, fail. After all, they're shutting out 50% of the potential workforce.

RockstarKate

11-05-2007, 09:22 PM

@ Ruramuq

There's no reason we can't acknowledge that men and women are different and still advocate equal rights for all. If you think the word "feminism" means the same thing as "machismo" you really don't understand idea behind the word.
"Feminism" does not mean that men and women should all be the same, only that we should all have the same opportunities.
If I, a woman, want to work full-time and not have children, I should be able to without being discriminated against.
If you, a man, want to stay home and care for your children, you should be able to without being discriminated against.
There is nothing sinister about it, but a lot of people don't understand the concept. This is mostly due to ignorance that is perpetuated by those who oppose equal rights. "Feminists want women to act like men! They're all femi-nazi lesbos!" This is the cry of a person who wants to stop women from having equal opportunity and wants to scare other people away from the idea of "feminism" by equating it with being a man-hating b*tch.
As much as men would like to forget it, just as whites would like to forget slavery, many repressions were put on women by men for a long time. In the US, women were given the right to vote less than 100 years ago! There are still many places in the world where women are still treated as property. There are still many people who believe that women are less intelligent and worth less than men. That is why we still need feminism.
It has nothing to do with trying to erase genders.

And what solution will we ever find without discussion? If we can't even talk about these things without everyone getting upset, how can we hope to implement change?

To bring this back to the CG field (from which it is drifting farther and farther away) I do think the true reason there aren't more women in CG is because of societal influences and not anything inherently different about women. I'm not saying that our parents all forced us girls to play with Barbie. I'm saying that the habits of our species can't be thrown out over night, not do I think they should be. Women will slowly begin to have more of a prescence in the CG as more and more video games are played by women and as computers become more and more mainstream.
I don't think women of my generation are afraid of technology, but my mother couldn't use the VCR and my grandmother didn't even know how to drive. Now that children, boys and girls, are raised around computers, cell phones, etc, that has changed. I truly think that as time passes, more women will show up in the CG field.

Another facet that I think has been missed here is that most people who aren't educated about CG think it's more about the "C" than the "G". So when the author of this article wonders why more women don't want to make "cool art for games and movies" she misses the point. A lot of people don't realize that CG is ART! They think it's all about the computer and not about the visual arts. They haven't realized yet that the computer is just another tool like the pencil, paintbrush or camera. When that changes, I think we'll see a change in the type of people who get involved in CG.

(Note: my opinions are skewed by being an American. I'm expressing my opinions based on my experience as an american woman. I think that experiences of women are different throughout the world.)

Ruramuq

11-06-2007, 12:12 AM

I just tried to say that machismo is a 'no sense' like feminism is, that's what I tried to say, similar because both have a history of hate.
And there are interpretations, like the ones you said about Women rights, that sounds great(we all deserve the same opportunities), but that's not the only kind of interpretation we have in this world.
And there are children too and we don't have a espeical name like infantism to defend them. do we need one, that will make a difference? is that much different than the whole idea of "Justice and rights". Call the attention might be good, for the benefit of the one who needs that attention, and perhaps thats the good point of this article 'Women in VFX'.
There are also some women that think men are obstructing their opportunities.
Feminism is like a double edge sword. Many woman use the word with good will, but many uses that with hate, and in that sense that word nullifies it's own meaning.

So when we think about CG, it's seems logical to me, that genders matters a lot. because they define social behaviours. another thing that comes to my mind, is, how much involved are women with CG, not only the idea or art. for example developers creating new technology for VFX, they are constantly re-defining the rules. and would be interesting to see more women there, interested with the technical side of CG. but I ask myself, how much a woman would need to discard to get balance. perhaps men are more involved, because they have less to lose, in a gender sense.

p.d I should't have said thaaat wooord, I made a mistake because that is a complex subject to discuss, that can easily lead to misinterpretation :D
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Bonedaddy

11-06-2007, 02:55 AM

Wow, what a total firestorm for this article. Yikes. Well, haven't read all the comments, but here's some other people that you could put on the list of high-up women in VFX:

Pauline Tso - co-founder of Rhythm and Hues (kind of surprised she was left off this one, thought she was pretty high-profile)
MK Haley - part of Disney Imagineering; when I met her, I was under the impression she's in a high-up position, but I can't find confirmation on it
Claudia Sumner - Post supervisor on several movies, and active member of LA SIGGRAPH
Joan Collins Carey - VFX super on several films, also active member of LA SIGGRAPH

As for the article itself, I wish it'd been more geared towards interviews than summaries. Still, anything that brings this subject up is doing some good.

Renee, you got guts coming in and defending the article like you're doing. Don't take the reaction too hard, CGtalk can be a bit of a cesspit at times. :)

Lunatique

11-06-2007, 05:12 AM

I'm currently the studio art director at a casual game publisher/developer, and that segment of the industry is a bit different. I've never seen more balanced male/female ratio at any CG-related company, ever. Maybe because the casual game market is targeted at women 35+, they make it a point to hire female employees as to better produce content that will appeal to women.

From my perspective as an art director, I do find that most women artists tend to have feminine qualities in their sense of aesthetics that is tangibly different from most male artists, and it's very obvious when you compare the average portfolio from a female and male artist. Casual games require a blend of charm, simplicity, pleasant visuals...etc that my female artists can do better than my male artists in general. Even when tasking my artists with something like UI design, the women artists tend to be a lot more creative, injecting cute and charming little things into the UI that my male artists would never have thought of. I'm now using more and more female artists because of this. In fact, at this point, I'm using more female artists than male artists because they simply have more appropriate aesthetics for casual games.

As far as the article goes--I work with a bunch of women all day long, and you can't just lump them all together. Different personalities are just that--different, male or female. I've worked with dudes that are total drama queen bitches, and also chicks that are totally laid back and way cool. But (at the risk of inviting flaming) I have to say that in general, women do tend to be more sensitive. The same remark said to a guy would be totally fine--the guy would just blow it off, make a self-depricating joke, or actually make a come back and turn it into a male bonding thing, whereas a woman might just get offended and get bent out of shape, and once you're on a woman's shit-list, you stay on it unless you one day save her baby from a burning building or something. :D

Megann

11-06-2007, 02:47 PM

I don't know if anyone has seen this, but I found it very interesting.
http://www.boingboing.net/2007/06/26/disney-rejection-let.html

Also Update 2 happened only ten years ago:

Update 2: danah boyd sez, "During my sophomore year at Brown (1997), I attended SIGGRAPH. There was an Imagineering booth where Disney was doing recruiting. I approached and asked if there were internships available, but the recruiter told me that there were no internships available for artists. I responded by saying that I was a developer and that I wanted to code. The response I received was, 'but you're a girl.' "I walked away stunned and midway out of the convention hall, I ran into my advisor (Andy van Dam) and relayed this story. He turned beet red and ran off to 'make things right.' Not 15 minutes later, I saw the recruiter at Disney stomping out of the hall. I found out later he was fired. "

Was this not posted here a couple of months ago?

Also Roskstar Kate, I completely agree with your last post and I am not even an american. ;)

CaptainObvious

11-06-2007, 02:56 PM

No, I'll explain: I didn't say men have no social skills, I said social skills is a natural quality in women(by nature). This is something very clear, woman personality, comunication, speed of processing of words,... all kinds of subtle details about expresssion, are very good habilities in women, that are inherited naturally, in a sense of biology. quatities that men can have/develop/ or already possess, but in general not by nature. Men have other qualities by nature.
I am fairly sure there is no conclusive evidence of that.

mkirylo

11-06-2007, 10:54 PM

this article sucked balls can i have my 10 min back please

Lorecanth

11-07-2007, 07:29 AM

Bad article solely based on its length...it was silly and amateurish to attempt such a statement in 2 pages. I was looking forward to hearing these intelligent women speak on their viewpoints, perspective, and experiance. Not a writers general observations of an industry even few people who are in it understand.

I've been wrapped up in post now and out of the cg loop for a while, but the women I've seen rise to power here in hollywood exhibit the exact same qualities as any of the men. Artistic ability, combined with technical excellence. Half of the post house I run is staffed with women, just for the shear fact that they bring the game and are more bad ass than any of the men that I interviewed. Thats what it comes down to.

gnarlycranium

11-07-2007, 06:43 PM

Another interesting piece of information: Pixar just made a small visit to my school, sending a shading tech and shading art director Tia Kratter. When asked by an audience member what the male/female ratios are like at Pixar, her response was "Pretty close to 50/50, actually."

Wow, Megan, thanks for the link. That Disney letter (with Snow White smirking at you on it) makes me feel a bit sick to my stomach.

I personally find story #2 a little unsettling. I am used to getting second looks at siggraph when I explain to people what I do, and it's got to be even worse in the programming field-- but unless this Disney guy's tone was COMPLETELY out of line, I can't imagine this being worth fussing over. If somebody reacts to me by blinking and saying in surprise "But you're a girl", it's because they honestly don't see very many of them in a particular area and are speaking in sheer kneejerk reaction to the unexpected-- and once they get over the initial 'bwuh?' moment, they're usually pretty delighted. I would not throw a fit or call sexism on this-- I'd simply smile and answer something like "Yeah, last time I checked anyway."

Thank you, Captain Obvious. :D (hell, I've got all the "natural" social skills of a platypus on fire!)

The ONLY things we can really, honestly, definitively generalize without sounding like complete jackasses, are the basics. Men tend to be larger, and physically stronger due to higher testosterone levels. That's biological, and heavily documented. Women usually have a higher body fat percentage, more flexible hip joints, and slightly longer life expectancy. Etcetera. Any pointless generalizations beyond that are mainly just wasting our time and making us all look silly.

Feminism = something different to everybody you ask and their momma, nothing but pointless argument bait. I ain't touching that one with a ten foot pole, not today.

silvia

11-08-2007, 06:42 PM

I liked the fact it mentioned that the actual industry hiring practices are not skewed against women, which is, in my experience, correct.

I didn't like the generalization that to be in this industry a woman must be some kind of tomboy to have a chance. Coarse language isn't something to encourage in any workplace.

The part about happy hour is the usual stereotype. What is true is that often women have to run home right after work because of family obligations. When it comes to family, women still sacrifice more of their work than men do, and this is true in many high-pressure jobs. The article should have elaborated more on that.

You will not find the answer to the issue by asking women in CG. We ourselves don't understand why others wouldn't love this job. The author would have more luck going to other types of creative industries with more women and ask them "why didn't you go into CG instead?"

kuronekogrrl

11-09-2007, 02:34 AM

OMG thank you so much Renee for that article! It gives me hope that I can still reach my goal of being a Pixar animator and that I am not the only person in the world working overtime and sacrificing my lunch breaks! :)

I feel that there is some kind of gender bias in the VFX world. I have only been a 3D artist for the last 2 years and when I work with male producers/directors their reaction to me being a female VFX artist ranges from no response (which is awesome) to looking at me up and down and saying sarcastically "well, good for you!".

I think I know why perhaps women may start a career in VFX and then end it; the get knocked up. I have just discovered I'm pregnant and I am terrified, yes, TERRIFIED, that I am going to loose my job. I have talked to my boss about what to do about maternity leave and they said, and I quote;

"When you come back from your leave we will most likely want to keep the full-time guy who has been replacing you for the year you have been away. It's only fair, you understand, right?"

...fantastic, hey? (not)

I also asked them about part-time work once I come back from leave, because I did some research and found that working mums find it extremely hard, if not impossible, to juggle full-time work and the family/new baby/housework. My boss said "there is no such thing as part-time in VFX". Aaargh! Makes me so frustrated! I love my job and I worked very hard to get this job and now it looks like I'm going to loose it because i want to have a family!

Anyways, wish me luck in trying to get my boss to think otherwise and thanks again Renee for article, keep it up!

Megann

11-09-2007, 09:30 AM

OMG thank you so much Renee for that article! It gives me hope t
"When you come back from your leave we will most likely want to keep the full-time guy who has been replacing you for the year you have been away. It's only fair, you understand, right?"

What? In what way is that fair? A new person would be hired on a temporary basis, unless they promiss this person otherwise. There are plenty of people who only get hired on a project basis, but firing someone over a pregnancy?

This stupidity causes many women in my country to not want to have kids and it's only just now that employers and the governement are starting to realize that this will be a problem, because there won't be enough employees to replace the ones that will eventually be retiring.

I am keeping my fingers crossed for you that they will change their minds about this. Also can't you ask the father to take an equal share in raising this kid? I mean it's hardly fair that you should have to give up your dreams only because you are helping with the creation of the next generation of industry professionals.

dneg

11-09-2007, 11:13 AM

In the UK at least this kind of behaviour from an employer is illegal.

We have several returning mothers here at Double Negative working in all areas, some come back full time, some part time. It works out fine for us.

Good luck with it all!

I think I know why perhaps women may start a career in VFX and then end it; the get knocked up. I have just discovered I'm pregnant and I am terrified, yes, TERRIFIED, that I am going to loose my job. I have talked to my boss about what to do about maternity leave and they said, and I quote;

"When you come back from your leave we will most likely want to keep the full-time guy who has been replacing you for the year you have been away. It's only fair, you understand, right?"

...fantastic, hey? (not)

I also asked them about part-time work once I come back from leave, because I did some research and found that working mums find it extremely hard, if not impossible, to juggle full-time work and the family/new baby/housework. My boss said "there is no such thing as part-time in VFX". Aaargh! Makes me so frustrated! I love my job and I worked very hard to get this job and now it looks like I'm going to loose it because i want to have a family!

Anyways, wish me luck in trying to get my boss to think otherwise and thanks again Renee for article, keep it up!

RockstarKate

11-09-2007, 03:29 PM

I feel that there is some kind of gender bias in the VFX world. I have only been a 3D artist for the last 2 years and when I work with male producers/directors their reaction to me being a female VFX artist ranges from no response (which is awesome) to looking at me up and down and saying sarcastically "well, good for you!".

I think I know why perhaps women may start a career in VFX and then end it; the get knocked up. I have just discovered I'm pregnant and I am terrified, yes, TERRIFIED, that I am going to loose my job. I have talked to my boss about what to do about maternity leave and they said, and I quote;

I don't think this is only in CG work, but in all types of work women encounter this obstacle if they decide to have children. I'd look into the laws regarding this where you are, but in the US there's usually a standard amount of time for maternity leave (not a year though! more like a month or 2.) and you can't be fired for having a baby. On the other hand, it will be very hard to be a mother and work full time unless you have a lot of resources for childcare or a husband who will stay with the kids.
There ARE part time jobs in CG though- maybe you should look into freelancing?

paulorchard

11-30-2007, 04:38 PM

Most of the artist women I know are in Graphic design and or web design, it could be that I just don't know enough poeple, but I will say that I knew ONLY one girl in college who was into 3D design and being the victim thing is kinda awful to say.

Being the first person to do somehting you are always going to pave the way alone.

Women in the industry know that they are the pioneers for their gender and as such have to push twice as hard as the guys, its always been that way, NOT just for women.

the first time blacks started doing predominantly white jobs they had to work twice as hard to prove themselves worthy.

It can be labelled discrimination but as a single father I have to work twice as hard to prove to the women of society that I am capable to raise a child. cuz guess what, raising children is not a man's area of expertise. *according to society*

Admit it, everything we can do they can do, same brain, same logic. Its not really that big a deal either way. I know there are many women who could kick my ass in design, im not that good, there are plenty of 14 yr old guys and girls that are better than me. Once these pioneer women make it to the top then other girls will have something to look to and admire. best we can do is give respect where respect is due.

There was one thing in the article that wasn't really addressed, WHAT is the difference in the pay between men and women in the same role? are you saying that a VFX sup for 300 being a man would get 20% more than a female? doesn't make sense and I need to look in on it.