vehicle: WW1 aircraft, Nieuport 17

[mmiller]

And here is the fuselage so far.

http://www.wwi-models.org/Images/Miller/render/Nieuport/n17wip.jpg
http://www.wwi-models.org/Images/Miller/render/Nieuport/n17wip1.jpg
http://www.wwi-models.org/Images/Miller/render/Nieuport/mm_n17tail.jpg


Some on-line references for this aircraft:

http://mars.ark.com/~mdf/N_17d.html
http://www.aviation.technomuses.ca/Eng/Collection/coll_period.html

http://users.skynet.be/fa233213/RealAircraft.html

Any critique is welcome
Mark

[Stungun]

Wow! That is a VERY ambitious project!

Really like what you got so far, looks like that Autocad software
you're using has a nice renderer and all to go with it, or are you
importing it to other software?

This would be really cool for weapon and vehicle encyclopedia :thumbsup:

Good luck on this!
- Stungun

[nanabaky]

the plane looks really excellant !! the gun is cool too, but less interesting... very nice global job :thumbsup:

[simarilius]

amazing work as always, one of your abatross images is the backdrop on my workstation at work, showed it to our cad guys and they had kittens. (we use UG @ an aerospace manufacturer)

[Man]

:eek: you are crazy man........i just saw 2 models (ever) with such a high detail.....it's really amazing..keep iy up:thumbsup:

[Troub]

whahoowwww!!!
:beer:
speechless
this is truly amazing work...could you tell us a bit more about the software and the renderengine.
this thread is definitely subscribed :applause: :applause: :applause:
keep up... it's going to be a masterpiece
greez
troub

[mmiller]

Thanks for the comments :)

as for info on the software etc..
I covered some of this in my posts on the "show your aircraft" thread
If you go to this page, it should answer some questions:
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39835&perpage=15&pagenumber=15

Mark

[mmiller]

Hi
I was able to put some time in on this project lately.
added the landing gear:

http://www.wwi-models.org/Images/Miller/render/Nieuport/mm_n17_2.jpg

and started work on the exterior surfaces:
http://www.wwi-models.org/Images/Miller/render/Nieuport/mm_n17_1.jpg

more coming soon
Mark

[BiTMAP]

*drooL*

wow nice work :D

[Undseth]

Very impressive!!!

I wonder; what kind of references do you have for your plane?

[mmiller]

Originally posted by undseth
Very impressive!!!

I wonder; what kind of references do you have for your plane?

Undseth
If you scroll to the bottom of my first post on this thread you will find three links to some excelent on-line refernces for this aircraft.

The first site has 3 blueprints that were made by the Germans of a captured N17 during WW1 - VERY nice drawings, and best of all they are dimensioned. :thumbsup:
90% of what i have modeled so far is based on these plans.

The other two sites are aviation museums and contain photos taken during restorations.

Other than that
I have the "Windsock Datafiles" published by Albatros productions.
a set of drawings made by Bergen F. Hardesty
and a set of Machi blueprints - an Italian Aircraft company that manufactured N17s (slightly modified)

for the engine I have a copy of the owners manual :cool:

Oddly enough, the most difficult part to find reliable info on was the Vicker's machine gun. This gun was used on a wide variety of aircraft, but was modified for the different instalations.
It seemed that every photo I looked at was different.

also
I am active on a couple of on-line forums.
The aerodrome dedicated to WW1 aviation history:
http://www.theaerodrome.com/
People here are VERY knwoledgable and happy to help out with technical issues and historic information.

and the WW1 modelers mailing list:
http://www.wwi-models.org/
Primary focus is "physical modeling" (the plastic kind)
But they tolerate me :)

Mark

[JonC]

amazing,.....:eek: :eek: :love: this is gorgeous! good luck for the rest!

[heipei]

I can hardly find words for it: amazing, great, detailed.
I agree to Knoxville, you dont see models this detailed very often. It gives the impression you were building up the plane from its very smallest parts. Even though in the final render with the hull attached you cant see any of the skeleton you modelled them, thats passion! Keep on!

That brings me to a question i've always wanted to ask: How is it possible for the vickers machinegun, or any other, to shot in a blade-powered plane? I mean, the shoots pass through the area the blades are turning, and without jedi-reflexes you would soon have a lot of holes in your blades. Maybe you can help me ;)

[Izu]

nice details on those guns there...engines are coo too..maybe fix the coppar meterial a lil..too clean.. ;)

[mmiller]

Originally posted by heipei
How is it possible for the vickers machinegun, or any other, to shot in a blade-powered plane? I mean, the shoots pass through the area the blades are turning, and without jedi-reflexes you would soon have a lot of holes in your blades. Maybe you can help me ;)

Interesting topic
The first attempt to address this problem involved metal wedges on the prop that were supposed to protect the prop from bullets.
i don't believe this was very succsesful as the impact of the bullets on the wedge eventual did damage the prop and the engine as well.
Not to mention the fact that I believe several people were killed during the testing.

eventualy a synchronisation device was developed that prevented the machine gun from fireing when the prop was in the way. I believe it is actualy a pretty simple device involving an eccentric cam fixed to the rotation of the engine that actuates a set of linkages that stops the gun from firing at the appropriate times.

There were quite a few synch devices developed and this is one of the reasons that modeling the Vickers ended up being such a pain.
The nieuport used an Alkan Hamy gear - which is the device on the top of the gun just aft the barrel.

hope that answers your question
Mark

[mmiller]

Originally posted by swirly-chicken
nice details on those guns there...engines are coo too..maybe fix the coppar meterial a lil..too clean.. ;)

Good point
in fact I think the entire engine could do with a little more dirt and grime. as well as the firewall and the inside of the cowl.

I'm not sure how much you know about these types of engines (rotaries).
But, the way they work is that the entire engine spins around a fixed crankshaft .:surprised
point is - they make a huge mess.
and the entire engine area quickly gets covered in oil.

Should be fun ;)
Mark

[motion_82]

!!!HOLY SHIT!!!

You're Texturing ability is amazing. Not to mention your precise Modeling ability. Cant wait to see your Lighting ability.

This is A grade material :bounce:

[mmiller]

Originally posted by motion_82
[B}You're Texturing ability is amazing. Not to mention your precise Modeling ability. Cant wait to see your Lighting ability.
[/B]

Thanks
Unfortunately, I would have to say that lighting is my weakest point, for several reasons.

almost all of the renderings I have done to date are ray traced.
This has worked out ok in the environments I have set up so far,
But lately I have tried some more complicated stuff with indoor elements. (big open hangar door) and this has clearly illustrated the limits of this type of rendering.

most importantly - NO reflected or indirect light.

I have been experimenting with radiosity which looks to be able to more accurately deal with this, but it is not a very robust feature in the version of the software I'm currently using and tends to crash the application. :annoyed:
and it takes so long to resolve a solution that making decisions as to lighting/material parameters is difficult and time consuming.
I'm used to ray trace mode where you can get back a screen display within a couple of minutes.

also - Radiosity requires that I redefine ALL my textures because the spectral properties need to be different :cry:
A huge task at this point.

not to metion the fact that the latest version of the software (which i don't have) uses a different (and better) method called particle tracing.

ah well... I'll get there
eventualy

Mark

BTW - I've made quite a bit of progress on this project and
Should be able to posts some updates in the next couple of days:cool:

[mmiller]

Hi
Here's the latest

Still quite a bit of detail to add to the cockpit area.
But most of the major stuff is in.

Moving along at a gratifyingly rapid pace:cool:
Mark
http://www.wwi-models.org/Images/Miller/render/Nieuport/n17mmrev6.jpg

http://www.wwi-models.org/Images/Miller/render/Nieuport/n17mmrev7.jpg

[Angelus]

Wow Amazing !!
Good job Man ! Really ! :eek:

[DaKrunch]

damn good!
a scientific presentation?


great details, very good work!
:applause:

[ChrisS]

That's really nice! I've always loved WW1 era aircraft. You can keep your jets, give me a wood and canvas biplane any day!

I modeled a Fokker DR1 that I was pretty proud of, then I saw this.
Incredible!

[mmiller]

Originally posted by Da Krunch

a scientific presentation?

Da Krunch
Yes, I suppose you could describe this as a scientific presentation.
I am a technical illustrator by proffesion but my educational background is fine arts. So, I guess I'm aiming for something in between. :)

The truth is, I got sick of doing half-assed work at my job. So I started my own project just to see where it would go.
fun stuff :thumbsup:

Mark

[mmiller]

Here's an image that shows progress to date on the N17 cockpit
interior. This is a view from the starboard side with a lot of the other cockpit stuff turned off - like the seat, control stick, gun, etc..

I have most of the major assemblies finished.
But it still needs quite a bit of work.
I want to put in all the plumbing this time and there are several important features that are still not modeled

But it's getting there
:)

mark

http://www.wwi-models.org/Images/Miller/render/Nieuport/lerh2b.jpg

[Dangeruss]

Zounds!

Wow, you've really redefined obsession to detail with this project. There's nothing to criticize from my point of view. I'm also a technical illustrator, and you're correct in your statement about doing personal projects and doing work related chores. The freedom to go crazy on the personal stuff is so much more fun.

Your work here is very inspiring. It occurs to me that you should publish a small volume of your cutaways and details and I'm certain WWI A/C miniaturists would devour it with glee.

[wayfaerer]

This looks like a lifework! I think, It would take me decades to get this far :-)

Is there anything small enough to be not modelled on this plane?

[mmiller]

Originally posted by Dangeruss
Your work here is very inspiring. It occurs to me that you should publish a small volume of your cutaways and details and I'm certain WWI A/C miniaturists would devour it with glee.
Dangeruss
Thanks
now, if this same idea occurs to a publisher, I'll be all set :thumbsup:
I have a strong association with "WW1 A/C miniaturist" and I been a memeber of the WW1 modelers mailing list for several years now. In fact the site i post this work on is dedicated to ww1 models, almost exclusively of the plastic variety.
nice people and they are always willing to help.

This looks like a lifework! I think, It would take me decades to get this far :-)
Is there anything small enough to be not modelled on this plane?

As for time
Yes, it is rather time consuming, but not decades by any means.
I think I started to work on this project seriously about 6 months ago. But it's hard to say because i usualy have a bunch of things going at once.
I have never actualy tried to figure out hours spent but I would say the N17 will be a couple of hundred anyway.
One thing that helps is that I'm using a CAD application. If it has any strengths it's accuracy and detail, and it's designed to do stuff like this...sort of :)
level of detail is as outlined at the begining-
full structural model, inside and out, down to bolt level.
I'm not going inside the major subassemblies, like the engine, guns, etc...
but I'd like to, and if I had adequate reference, I probably would :cool:
I think it would be fun to make a series of images that clearly illustrate the way the major systems work:
fuel, lubrication, weapons, flight controls etc...
One of the beautiful things about these machines is that they are not realy that complicated. And the nature of the technology with which they were built, makes them relatively easy to describe visualy

fun stuff
Mark

[Darkman1A]

hot dang man i think you missed a rivot.
nice work.

[Skyraider3D]

LOVELY! :thumbsup:
Absolutely nothing to crit!

[Krisc]

*falls off chair*

holy sweet ripe tomatoe juice, that is one sweetly detailed model. I wish I could something even remotely close to that. :buttrock: :beer: :thumbsup: :drool:

[munkY]

amazing :drool:

[3Dan]

OMG that Monosoupape...
Well when fully done you will have to test fly it...
I wonder if you keep this file in separate subfiles to avoid the risk of crashing. How do you manage so large a file?

[mmiller]

Ronnie
How did you manage to dig this thread out of the ancient past.
I haven't been able to work on this project since the spring so I would imagine it was buried pretty deep.
But the freelance job that has sucked up all my spare time is just about complete and I should be able to get back to work on this project next week sometimes :D

3Dan
Yes, I do keep major assemblies in seperate files and then reference them into the main file. This is particularly helpful for complex assemblies like the engine and guns that are used on a variety of different aircraft.

Also - I only have 63 seperate levels in my software and these tend to fill up pretty quickly. and then the fact that you can just toggle the whole file off and get all the data out of the way.
it's pretty a pretty useful feature.

however
When I'm done with all the modeling and want to render out some scenes I usualy copy all the external data for a particular aircraft into one file and then reference that whole file into another file that has environment data.
The software does not support nested reference files.

hope that made sense ;)
Mark

[mmiller]

Had to dig deep to find this thread
It's been a while since I worked on this, but I think it's time i finished it.

Only thing left on the fuse is the plumbing and wiring and the ammunition containers.

recently modeled the oil pump, magneto, and carb.
more soon
Mark

http://mwmiller.net/engine/lerhrev1_700.jpg


http://mwmiller.net/engine/lerhrev_cu.jpg

[Skyraider3D]

Neatness :)
Now animate it all ;)

Excellent work Mark! The amount of detail is great!

I'm amazed though how you find the time for all this!


I just checked back to the first post and the original engine... good grief! It's quite an improvement and the original was very impressive already! Two big thumbs up! :)

[mmiller]

I revised some of the modeling
and quite a few of the texture maps.

I wanted to constrict the detail threshold down a little so that i could output higher resolution files.
Biggest task was getting the distortion out of some of the maps.
You can't realy see it on the images I posted because of the resolution, and, in some cases, creative croping :-)
but when you got in close you could see some obvious tiling.

Here is a close up from an earlier stage, there are some maping probs, but I like the lighting:
http://mwmiller.net/engine/lerhrev2_700.jpg

Here's a later stage.
this version enlarges better - but it lost something as well
the texture pattern is a little too predictable in some areas
http://mwmiller.net/engine/lerhrev4_cu.jpg

The overall image
http://mwmiller.net/engine/lerhrev4_700.jpg http://mwmiller.theaerodrome.com/engine/LeRhplan_700.jpg

I also made up a composite plan view image.
original is about 8000 pixels across :-D
http://mwmiller.net/engine/LeRhplan_700.jpg
1500 pixel version here:
http://mwmiller.theaerodrome.com/engine/LeRh_plan_1500.jpg (http://mwmiller.net/engine/LeRh_plan_1500.jpg)

I suppose it is time to stop obsessing over this engine and move on ;-)
Mark

[mmiller]

Working through the last details in the fuselage area
http://mwmiller.theaerodrome.com/n17/n17pumb.jpg
Here;s a legend for the callouts on the first image:

1 Gas overflow pipe - I believe there should also be an overflow pipe coming from the carb
there is a white line on the image that indicates where the connection is - in some photos it looks like they just merged the two overflow lines together then ran them out the bottom of the AC
2 Oil - from tank to pump
3 Gas - from tank to regulator
4 two lines from the "sight feed lubricator"
5 Gas - regulator to carb
6 cable from fuel pump to tach


http://mwmiller.net/n17/n17pumb.jpg

http://mwmiller.net/n17/0n17_cu.jpg

[mmiller]

here's my post holiday update.
Added most of the remaining fuse details.

http://mwmiller.theaerodrome.com/n17/0n172_700.jpg

http://mwmiller.theaerodrome.com/n17/0n17b.jpg
Most of the additions are to the weapons system.
ammo cans, empty belt chute and drum, synch device etc...
Time to start the wings.
mark

more images here:
http://mwmiller.theaerodrome.com/n17/index.html (http://mwmiller.net/n17/index.html)

http://mwmiller.net/n17/0n17b.jpg

http://mwmiller.net/n17/0n172_cu.jpg

[Skyraider3D]

Mark you gotto tell me... where do you find the time for all this???

It's stunning!

[mmiller]

Time
Always a problem.
My solution is to take FOREVER to complete anything.

One thing that can help is to not be goal oriented.
Or, if you are working on a huge project, try to focus on subassemblies.
You aren't making an airplane - you are making an oil pump.
focus on that and be happy when it's done.
then move on to the next assembly.
head games

So what if it takes three years ;-)
Mark

[Clanger]

You are the Aircraft master, how is anyone supposed to top this?

Just the inspiration I need to get my train project back on track thanks!

[Songbird]

I, I just want to know do you really have a Nieuport 17 in your home?
:)

[mmiller]

Clangor
funny you should mention steam locomotives
After I finish this Nieuport I think i'm done doing WW1 aircraft structural models.
I'll still generate external models,
but I think it would be a little redundant to do another full blown structural project now.

so
I'm thinking of doing a steam locomotive next as well.
And this time I'm going to be smart and pick a subject that i can get my hands on.
There are 2 Mikados about an hour away and a Mogul right where I work.
The Mikados are a better choice because they are operational.
This is a huge advantage as i would imagine they would appear quite different when in use.
I like the wheel config better anyways
My first choice was a NYC J3 - but, i don't think i have the refs.

This will be a monster of a project
Steam locomotives are very complex, particularly the later versions when they started to hang all kinds equipment on them.
But, no matter what, we are talking about 10 times more complicated than the ww1 aircraft I have modeled so far.
And modeling castings can be time consuming as well.
But I just have to do this :-D

Have you decided on a subject?

I looked at some UK traction engines and was extremly tempted.
Nice looking machines
But, the availability of comprehensive refernce material on these local machines makes it a pretty easy decision.

nice to hear from you again
Mark

[Clanger]

Mikados? Not familiar with them, will search the web for a look.

I have started my train but at a very early stage. I'm doing the "Evening Star" which was the last 9F to be built.

Reference is a big problem as always, I have the plans for a 3 1/2 inch scale live steam model which is quite close to the real thing but no cigar. So I'm modeling the model and altering things where I can. The real thing is at The National railway museum in York when it's not loaned out to someone but that's 300 miles away! Still I hope to visit it before I'm finished, at least I can then get the external details accurate.

Can't wait to see how you tackle a train.

[mmiller]

Clangor
A Mikado is a locomotive with the wheel config 2-8-2
The middle number is always the number of drive wheels.
Obviously, there were many different locomotives built with this wheel config, but the one I'm looking very much like this one:
http://www.ebtrr.com/pics/ebt-loco_14.jpg

I guess that will look a little odd in my N17 thread ;-)
Mark

[Clanger]

I've had a look around the web and that's one complicated loco. Best of luck with it.
Don't let it distract you from the Nieuport though, we want to see it finished and on the front page.

[mmiller]

Clangor
I took a closer look at the evening star as well.
Nice looking locomotive.

and pretty darn complex as well
I think you will have your hands full ;-)

Google search found lots of refernces.
I'm sure you have probably seen these before, and I don't know about their accuracy or usefulness,
But these two sites look interesting:
http://www.kimsim.co.uk/pages/9Fs.htm
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andrew.herbert1/andrew_herbert/steam/evening_star_plans.html

You should start a WIP thread

Your point about staying focused is well taken
I do tend to be easily distracted
Mark
Mark

[Clanger]

Thanks for the links, I had seen the Winson plans before, they would be perfect but for the low res if only I could get hold of the plans proper, the company that produced them is no longer trading, sniff.

Start the WIP? Maybe I will I'm at such an early stage though.

Just thought, with all your aircraft models and eventually a train you could make a very impressive science museum scene, that's if your computer can manage a 4 billion poly render!

Back to the wings.

[Fishbiproduct]

Sorry, still on the "locomotive" subject, but there are a few
CAD files that are worth looking at, at this address:

http://steamcad.railfan.net/larry.htm

[mmiller]

Originally posted by Fishbiproduct
Sorry, still on the "locomotive" subject, but there are a few
CAD files that are worth looking at, at this address:

http://steamcad.railfan.net/larry.htm

Fishbiproduct
Thanks for the link
I have seen the site already, and it does have some nice plan views generated in autocad.
In fact, I contacted the guy who generated the NYC J3 elevations and got his ok to use the files to help generate a 3D model.
I love the J3, and it could easily be turned into a J3a - which is, IMHO, the nicest of the streamlined locomotives.
But, I don't think I have the refs.

But, I need to think about my detail threshold on this project.
a bolt level thing could take forever.
and if i can get the generation time down, I could concievably model mutiple prototypes. :-D
We will see.

I'd like to do some architecture as well, in particular, train stations. Be nice to bring back Penn Station ;-)

in any case
despite all evidence to the contrary
I am focused on the Nieuport wing structure
checked through all my refs and it looks pretty straightdorward.
Should go quickly
Mark

[mmiller]

I finaly have an update.
Got a freelance job that tied me up for a month.

Here is the top wing structure.
Still have some brackets to generate - but this is pretty much it.
Wings are a pain - more work than it looks.

http://mwmiller.theaerodrome.com/n17/0n17w2.jpg

http://mwmiller.theaerodrome.com/n17/0n17w3_800.jpg

http://mwmiller.theaerodrome.com/n17/0n17w4.jpg
and I still have some texture issues
My wood maps need some work
Mark

BTW there is a new gallery at the aerodrome forum open to artwork depicting early aviation (up to WW1)
can be digital or trditional.
http://www.theaerodrome.com/photopost/index.php

http://mwmiller.net/n17/0n17w.jpg

http://mwmiller.net/n17/0n17w1.jpg

[Fishbiproduct]

Great update, as usual, and thank's for that link
(theaerodrome.com)! I just spent an hour going through
the FTS's D V11 thread in the "replica aircraft" section...:)

[mmiller]

Originally posted by Fishbiproduct
Great update, as usual, and thank's for that link
(theaerodrome.com)! I just spent an hour going through
the FTS's D V11 thread in the "replica aircraft" section...:) Fishbiproduct
Thanks
And i'm glad you enjoyed The Aerodrome.
I have been posting there regularly for quite some time now and it is a wonderful place for anybody interested in early aviation.
Many of the regulars know the subject inside out.
And you can generaly get the answer to just about any question.
They have helped me many times.

Achim's repro DVII is impressive.
and well documented
Perhaps you have seen this already, but he has a site here:
http://www.fokker-team.de/

Mark

[BradMick]

Jesus dude....freaking amazing! The detail is insane, absolutely love it. Keep it up.

Brad Mick

[Skyraider3D]

Great work as always Mark! I hope one day I can persuade you in doing a cutaway of a late 1930s Fokker (C.V/C.X/D.XXI/D.XXIII/T.V) :)

[JesterRace]

Geez this looks nice, i cannot wait till this whole thing is finished... too awesome for words

[aQu]

You are doing great job on those details!
Keep it going!

[Clanger]

My, you have been busy.
I can't imagine how you manage to texture everything as well as the insane level of detailed modeling.

[mmiller]

Originally posted by Clanger
My, you have been busy.
I can't imagine how you manage to texture everything as well as the insane level of detailed modeling.
Hi clangor
Busy?
Yeah, busy drawing up plans of garden furnature. :-)
I've had this freelance job for about 6 weeks now, I suppose i shouldn't complain as the money is good
But it required that I set aside all my personal work, which begins to drive me crazy after a while.
good news is - the client is away for two weeks.
so now is my chance to try and crunch this stuff out

textures - these are mainly what I believe is generaly called "proceduaral"
But, the fit is bad in places so i'll probably have to go in and make some custom textures.

Only major assemblies left are the lower wing , V-strut, and Lewis machine gun. Also a lot of little stuff like the seat belts and some of the plumbing which i still can't figure out.
But, I'm realy close.

then comes the fun part - rendering
I can't wait
Mark

[mmiller]

Top wing is finished
Textures still need work, particularly the external ones.
Would be nice if I could get a closer look at a wing surface
bottom wing is next (groan)

Mark
http://mwmiller.net/n17/0n17w4.jpg
http://mwmiller.net/n17/0n17w3_800.jpg
http://mwmiller.net/n17/0n17w2.jpg

[Akiraghost]

Hello there,

WOW, seeing what you made is amazing. Great detail and accuracy to your modeling of the aircraft. Every tiny bits seems to be there of the aircraft materials. I wasn't alive when that happen but man a plane like that was really something in that time. Congrats.

[blindsleeper]

just happened on to this thread, and i must say, this is an incredible replica, the intimate knowledge you have is amazing, and for once, i dont think there is any room for critisizm... kudos to you my friend

[mmiller]

A guy just pointed this photo out to me
WOW - a real color photo (I think)
first I've seen of this aircraft
What a goldmine of information :-D
Mark

http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/image/memoire/0084/sap01_cvl00085_p.jpg

[Guybrush]

amazing work mmiller...cant wait to see more progresses

[LeadToDeath]

that is truly amazing! one of the best works ive ever seen!

heck, how did you get these textures and the detail?? it looks so real!

[cgg]

wow mmiller i guess you know what you are doin cuz this model rock, i have absolutely nothing to criticize.
great work

[lapinbily]

aiii ... really great stuff !

need to work more on my plane before posting it =)

[neu]

mmiller

I can't belive this....you're crazy. I'm pretty sure you have the real thing in you're garage :)

Congratulations! Signed up for this thread..

Greetings, neu

[Lourdelle]

Hey,

you are very crazy to make all parts of this plane, it's very beautiful but you had to spend a lot of time. You are making
this plan like if you want to make it in real :)

bye

[frizzank]

First off, wow. That is an amazing amount of detail work for things you don’t usually see. Second, I think you have a lot of people watching you now (including the government, because they think you’re an alien from another dimension with super human modeling skills). Third, have you tried any other 3d programs? Some of them have excellent rendering, mental ray is a good example. It might save you some head aches when you render.

[mmiller]

Thanks guys

LeadToDeath - textures
one of the best parts about textures is that you can steal the good bits from previous projects.
so you can use the best of what you have done before as your starting point.
after a while you start to get somewhere.
Just keep the original .psd files and try and keep all the effects segregated in their own layers.
this way you can steal individual effects for later use.

neu - nope, don't have one in the garage, but I have the next best thing
a comprehensive set of plans with dimensions. ;-)

I have been pretty anal with this project.
the stuff based on the Rozzendall plans was input by the numbers - so it should be dead on.
where I had to resort to photo interpretation you would have to figure in some kind of roundoff - should be within a couple of mm though.

Fizzank
I worked in the aerospace industry for government contractors for 20 years
I'll bet the government knows stuff about me I don't even know. :-D

I have begun working with 3Ds but I haven't invested much time in it yet. I think in order to make any real progress i'd have to shut down everything else and focus on it.
I'm not ready to do that yet.

thanks again for the comments
mark

[mmiller]

i'm finaly back with another update.
Here's a preliminary render of all the internal structure.
Still have a rather long list of odds and ends that i need to model.
But the major stuff is all in.

http://mwmiller.net/n17/n17fin_full.jpghttp://mwmiller.theaerodrome.com/n17/n17fin_full.jpg

http://mwmiller.theaerodrome.com/n17/n17fin.jpg
http://mwmiller.net/n17/n17fin.jpg
http://mwmiller.theaerodrome.com/n17/n17fin_cu.jpg
http://mwmiller.net/n17/n17fin_cu.jpg

[mmiller]

soo...
why is the word "odds" in my previous post linked to some c...asino site?
anybody else get that?

i can't seem to get rid of it - and it has infected this post as well
grrr....
help !

20 minutes later - hmmm... now it's gone
i'm confused

[Clanger]

Fantastic as ever, what more can anyone say?

No strange links here, I'd guess something dodgy running on your computer.

[OveR4tEd]

quite impressive, and its not even done yet... wow. you need to rig this with real life physics and dynamics on every part. its only suiting lol

[mmiller]

Fantastic as ever, what more can anyone say?

No strange links here, I'd guess something dodgy running on your computer.
Hi Clanger
how are your projects coming?

I think your right about this weird link.
it comes and goes - and suddenly I'm getting a ton of pop ups.
must be something I picked up

[Clanger]

Hi Clanger
how are your projects coming?

Old projects on the serious backburner, new projects i.e. I'm doing the SFX for a friends film that involves modeling cars and an Airplane (Sukhoi S-37) are coming on well.
I'm being paid in computers! I wouldn't have the capacity for the rendering otherwise.

I've found out my Reference for the Evening Star is a long way from the original so I'll just have to go and visit it, major journey I probably can't do in a day.

I do find getting the correct reference a major pain.

[Skyraider3D]

You never fail to impress, Mark! :thumbsup:

I like the way you progressively zoom into the image. Again, impressive!

[LeeC]

Mark, only just found these threads and am amazed at the level of detail you work to... really impressive.

What I am actually posting for is you seem to have been browser hijacked. I would spend a bit of time trying to get rid of this because if it is anything to do with Cool Web Search then it is a complete pain. Have a look here to see if this is what your problem is.. http://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/index.php?showtutorial=47


Hope this is of some help, keep up the excellent work, I am looking forward to seeing the end product... as I am sure you are.

[mmiller]

Mark, only just found these threads and am amazed at the level of detail you work to... really impressive.

What I am actually posting for is you seem to have been browser hijacked. I would spend a bit of time trying to get rid of this because if it is anything to do with Cool Web Search then it is a complete pain. Have a look here to see if this is what your problem is.. http://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/index.php?showtutorial=47


Hope this is of some help, keep up the excellent work, I am looking forward to seeing the end product... as I am sure you are.LeeC
Thanks for the advice.
I don't know exactly what the problem is.
But, I'm sure I'm infected with something.
I did a scan with Adware and that cleaned up the immediate problem - but there is still something not right.

also - my sons like to play games on my computer, and for some reason allmost all of them began to crash about three months ago.
I think it is a video card problem, but all my efforts so far have not resolved the situation.
I think I just need to take this PC to somebody a little more knowledgable than I.
But, my productivity software is unaffected up till now (knock on wood)
and I don't have the time to take my PC offline for a couple of days right now.
So, it will have to wait.

and Yes
I'm extremly eager to get back into this project.
It's so close to being complete I can smell it
oh well :sad:

[LooK OuT!]

Oh well, I speak rarely here, so it must be really something like a 'milestone' to make me talk :) Anyways, I think you can't get any higher level than this, you get to the limits with this amount of details. Only thing you can do more is to put another pixel between every two, but that's just a blind circle and gets us to nowhere.
Absolutely top quality. I'm really honoured I'm allowed to watch this kind of highest-end computer tech-art. Congratulations!

.... why not SPAD XIII? :)

Naaah, just kidding :)

[mmiller]

Oh well, I speak rarely here, so it must be really something like a 'milestone' to make me talk :) Anyways, I think you can't get any higher level than this, you get to the limits with this amount of details. Only thing you can do more is to put another pixel between every two, but that's just a blind circle and gets us to nowhere.
Absolutely top quality. I'm really honoured I'm allowed to watch this kind of highest-end computer tech-art. Congratulations!

.... why not SPAD XIII? :)

Naaah, just kidding :)Hi Look Out
Thanks for the comments
But, I don't think I agree with your "blind circle" idea
You can ALWAYS improve a model or image, and if you think you can't you are probably not looking hard enough :)
Yes, you are right in that eventualy you get to the point where any additional detail gets lost unless you output higher resolution images.
Closest I am to that is on the Mercedes engine, as I made a concerted effort to constrict down the detail threshold and increase the res on all the texture maps.
And I was extremely happy with the results.
But, i never dreamed that it was finished
nothing is ever realy finished.

No - i am happy to say i see unlimited potential for improvement. :thumbsup:
and thanks god for that

"...why not a SPAD XIII?"
why not indeed - you must be reading my mind.:)

[Obizzz]

yeah, give us a Spad :)

I'd love to see one...

[LooK OuT!]

SPAD XIII - 'gliding like a brick' or something like that :) Oh well, my favourite WW1 fighter...

Yes, in this case only room for improvmenet is with texture detail and maps. I think you should release your own program with this Nieuport model. Something like a virtual walk-around of this plane. Is that ever possible?

[mmiller]

Finaly cleared out a bit of time to try and finalise the N17

Internals are just about done.
I'm now working through what's left of the external details.
Just added the stiching, cockpit coaming and windscreen this
weekend.

I considered just mapping the stiching between the upper cowl
and side covers, but it's a prominent feature so I decided to
model it.
Not sure i have the configuration exactly right
and The windscreen as it stands now is grossly simplified.

Not too happy with that belt return channel either - looks like
it sticks up too far.
I hope to get some clarification on these questions from my friends in the Ww1 aviation community :)

almost there

http://mwmiller.net/n17/0n17d_800.jpg

http://mwmiller.net/n17/0n17c_cu.jpg


and I ran a preliminary test render to see how it integrates into a background
Please note that the markings are incorrect
roundels are british and the personal markings are French
like I said ....it's just a test :shrug:

http://mwmiller.net/n17/n17pre3.jpg

[LooK OuT!]

I'm so glad to see Your work going to the final stage :) I'm still ensured, that this model could be a very good virtual museum exponate.

[mmiller]

Just about ready :)


http://mwmiller.net/n17/0n17e.jpg

http://mwmiller.net/n17/0n17e_cu.jpg

[Skyraider3D]

Coming together really nicely. I like the lighting.

I'd say, start make some space on your shelf for another award... :thumbsup:

Only comment is the background photo... it needs some of the more modern looking structures edited out, I think.

[mmiller]

Ronnie
Thanks.... but how can you tell those buildings are modern :)

Here's a render on my standard grass field

http://mwmiller.net/n17/0n17grd_800.jpg

http://mwmiller.net/n17/0n17grd_cu.jpg

[SuperHal]

absolutely first rate. keep it up. I love it.

[Clanger]

Oh, no... an update I really want to see and all the pictures are missing :cry:

[mmiller]

Oh, no... an update I really want to see and all the pictures are missing :cry:
Clanger
My website went down
It seems to do that from time to time :shrug:

but it's back now

[SuperHal]

I was in awe of everything until you did the skin. It looks metalic. I am sure WW1 planes were canvas covered. Except for that you are my hero.

[mmiller]

SuperHal
Yes. you are right - most of the external surfaces are fabric covered.
However the front of the fuse (from the rear of the cockpit to the front) is covered in a couple of materials.
The front cowling and the panel on the top are sheet metal
The side panels are made up of thin laminated wood strips.
But, they must have worked the finish as I have never seen any evidence of wood grain or seams.
I figure they smoothed it out and used a metaic paint on ot - so i have it looking pretty metal-like.

So the fabric textures aren't working for you
well... I'll be working over the textures quite a bit now
we will see where it goes :)

Currently modeling a Lewis Machine gun for the UK variants
http://www.wwi-models.org/Images/Miller/render/Nieuport/lewis9.jpg


My site is obviously still down
Hope to fix it this week
until then, a lot of the WIP images can be seen here:
http://http://www.wwi-models.org/Images/Miller/render/Nieuport/index.html

[Guybrush]

looking very nice, really like your textures

[Skyraider3D]

Looks awesome!
The gun mount bracket bolts (still with me?) look a bit flimsy, but I am sure you've done your research well! ;)
Only crit perhaps is to darken down the gun a little bit. Textures are great indeed, though! :thumbsup:

[solidesign]

It look great!

I like this biplane, i already made two of them in scale model.

Greets

[mmiller]

Hi
unfortunately my website went down because I stupidly let my domain nmae expire.
I figured i would just re-establish it, but some nasty commercial site selling all kind of stuff you probably don't want picked it up.
which means that now all my links take you back to this horrible site.
sorry about that.

I now have a new location here:
http://mwmiller.theaerodrome.com/

I wanted to go back through this thread and just edit all the pointers, but the bad links don't come up.
So I tried to re-insert the images as best i could.
tough to remember that far back though so the continuity is a little off.

This N17 project is just about complete now.
I'm currently generating a series of images on the UK variant for publication.
So i'll have to hold off on posting them until after publication.
But I did post a complete ghosted view here
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=186499&highlight=nieuport

more coming soon

here are some external views
http://mwmiller.theaerodrome.com/n17/0n17e.jpg

http://mwmiller.theaerodrome.com/n17/0n17grd_800.jpg


http://mwmiller.theaerodrome.com/n17/0n17grd_cu.jpg

[safakoner]

super job :thumbsup:

[Mar'ak]

That's realy amazing! You'v done a very good job. I don't know if you already said that but...how long did the whole project take you so far?

thz

[dr1Zzt]

Whos driving it? (first screenshot) o_O OMG its going to fall!

[mmiller]

That's realy amazing! You'v done a very good job. I don't know if you already said that but...how long did the whole project take you so far?

thz Hi Mar'ak
Thanks

as for time
I can honestly say i'm not entirely sure
and I'm not so sure I even want to know :)

But I started it over three years ago.
Of course, i haven't worked on it continuously since then.
Just kind of a secondary project i would pull out and pick away at from time to time.
but there is a LOT of work here - couple hundered hours maybe (?)

actualy, I'm still not entirely done
There was a whole series of Nieuport designs that were based on this basic frame and I would like to illustrate them.
first would be the N17 Bis
Same basic structure - but they put a fairing on the fuse giving it a rounded shape, replaced the LeRhone with a 130HP clergert
and installed both the Vickers and Lewis MGs.
end result was it flew like a pig
should look cool though. :D

[mmiller]

Here's a structural view that i think came out ok:

http://mwmiller.theaerodrome.com/n17/0n17f.jpg


and another Phantom View

http://mwmiller.theaerodrome.com/n17/N17_ght2.jpg

http://mwmiller.theaerodrome.com/n17/N17_ght2_3.jpg

http://mwmiller.theaerodrome.com/n17/N17_ght2_4.jpg

[wybl]

why is this thread not rated yet? You got 5 stars from me already.

Details are simply amazing. :eek:

[mikeVerv.]

yeah 5 stars from me to
nice work

[dan1el]

Hi, sorry to slide abit off like this.
let me first say, cool pics great sence of detail...
I'm also crazy about mechanical stuff (engines especially) and I was so lucky to get hired at the only engine manufacturer in Denmark...the largest combustion engines in the world :)
I'm currently involved in several project where we try to make nice renders of CAD models.
For now we have rendered in UG (Unigraphics, our CAD system) example (http://www.baggravation.net/daniel/calender.jpg).:)

But we just finished our budget for this year buying Maya 6 Unlimited, and after the new year I'll be going back to work trying to make realistic animation and rendered stills like the phantom view you showed in this thread (and on your HP).
how do you make those ? is it several different stills same viewangle and then in Photoshop or something you make the phantom effect or can you actually do the phantom cutaways in your render ?
I like the idea of mapping the materials, I thik I'll try my way with this when I get back.

[mmiller]

Hi dan1el
No problem

congrats on the job,
I assume you are a technical illustrator - and jobs seem to be rather scarce these days.

engines can be a lot of fun to illustrate.
and BIG engines would be better still :thumbsup:
I'm curious - what are the "biggest internal combustion engine in the world" used for?
BTW - I can't get your image link to work - I'd love to get a look at these engines

as for my phantom views
Yes, I make them by rendering out multiple views from the same angle and then merging them together in Pshop.
This way you can interactively select the areas you want to "ghost"
allows you a lot of control and flexability.
I suppose you could do it in the render stage, but with my software you could only define an overall transparency - which IMHO would not be nearly as effective.

I'm using an ancient surface modeler called microstation
But, coincidentaly I did some work for a model company out of the Czech republic called Eduard - they use Unigraphics.
They sent me an IGES version of their 3D model and I converted it to enable me to make some box art illsutrations.
File transfer went surprisingly smooth
WIP thread here:
Fokker DVII (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=161046)

good luck with your project

[dan1el]

Yeah I know MicroStation, abit like the PC version of CADAM I guess (our old CAD system)

I fixed the link above...

Me make 2-stroke Diesel engines for marine and electrical power plants.
The one I am showing in the example is the worldst biggest, 110.000 BHP. Currently being tested and installed in a few months as far as I know...
I am a technical designer, hired for making vector graphics instruction book drawings, but have involved myself in more and more illustrations and animations...
may I ask what you work with ?

Thanks for the idea of Phantoming....might come in handy ;)

I dream about making my dream motorcycle in a CAD program to the detail one day (Zündapp KS 750 WH 1943)

[mmiller]

dan1el
CADAM ?
If that's the system I'm thinking of, then that's REALLY ancient :eek:
I seem to recall the designers at Perkin Elmer using it back in the early 80s
Microstation is very similiar to Autocad.

I am currently working for a compnay called Lorad who makes breast imaging equipment (mamogram machines)
before that I spent 19 years working for various aerospace companies.
sample of work can be seen here:
http://mwmiller.theaerodrome.com/prowork/prowork.htm

[KaDDD]

aaahhhrr! ! !le cry of the processor which melts: pcchchchchhhhhhhHHHHHhtst poouUf... . no criticism for me, only one salvo of applause, the levels of details is incredible, the precision has to fall floor
really a splendid work, I am in admiration in front of patience that it have to ask to you
... excellent .. . . ***** stars . . . .

I am sure, on the museum of French aviation would be interressé by rplique of this quality

[mmiller]

Hi m@lonet
thanks

and yes, my processor did choke a little on this
internals took about 24 hours to crunch out @ 6000 pixels across.
I'd like to render out larger files as I think the detail level will hold up to about 8000 or so, but I don't want to tie up my PC for 3 days :scream:

But, I think the fact that this software is so old is helping me out a bit.
It is about 8 years old and I think it is designed for the lower processing resources available at the time.
more current CAD apps I've used are resource PIGS!
of course, they have far more advanced features
but for what I'm doing - I don't need them :)

biggest problem is that as the file size grows the chances for software crashes grows as well
when you initialise a render the texture maps load up - and I get a lot of crashes here.
usualy I can trick it into working by rendering portions of the geometry and then adding the rest.
not sure why this works ... but it does...usualy.
can be frustrating though.

I do think that it would be cool to make up some museum displays, and I have offerd to provide artwork to the "Royal Army Museum", in Brussels.
they have been restoring a Nieuport 23 (very similiar to the 17) and photos of this restoration have been extremly helpful.
Philippe's site (http://users.skynet.be/fa233213/En/RealAircrafts/RealAircraft.html)
i figure it's the least i could do

well, to be honest I'd just like to see one of these images printed out realy big :)

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