Nodal Based Composition for win?

[beaker]

Nuke, Toxik, Fusion, they are all $3,500-5k. For normal people you will have to stick with AE or Combustion. There are some opensource node based compositors but they are pretty buggy and incomplete:
http://www.jahshaka.org/

[dnashj33]

Combustions the only compositor among the entire group (except it's slightly bigger Brother, Toxic) that has both Nodes and Layers, so you can choose which one works best for you. I use both modes. Another nice compositor for the money (under $500 USD) is Mirage
http://www.bauhaussoftware.com/products_mirage_studioPRO.php

It's paint tools are unrivaled, and it even has some nice effects included(like volumetric lights) that you'd have to buy plugins for, in AE or Combustion.

[Jahmaica]

yeah, its a shame Jah Shaka is still buggy and all that. For the Price, Mirage is a really good software, even just for the 2D animation, I've tested it a few years ago within the trial period, seemed cool, thanks for remembering me that app.

Do you people know this tools ? http://fxhome.com/compositelab/pro

129 Euros


Impressive

[Hugh]

Has Combustion's node (schematic) view changed hugely in the past 4 years? That was the last time I used it, and the node view was worse than useless - it was okay as a view, but working in it was beyond painful.... Especially for someone who was used to, at the time, working in Fusion...

[dnashj33]

Has Combustion's node (schematic) view changed hugely in the past 4 years? That was the last time I used it, and the node view was worse than useless - it was okay as a view, but working in it was beyond painful.... Especially for someone who was used to, at the time, working in Fusion...I bought my first copy when C4 was first released, so I can't accurately compare it to C3. One of the changes to the node/schematic view was the introduction of "Capsules." The TimeWarp Operator was another addition.

I don't see how it can be worse that other node compositors...you can toggle on and off the thumbnails. I really like it, and find working in both nodes and layers a nice way to work. If you've ever seen a Flame, you'll notice that the schematic view is inherited from Autodesk/Discreet's high-end systems. The ability to see each node thumbnail update independently, and the ability to scrub each one indepently back and forth (like previewing a glow operator) to see just it's effect through the timeline, is a really cool and often used feature. Not sure how Fusion or Shake's nodes are supposed to be superior to a system borrowed from a Flame.

There should be a new version anytime now, because it's (Combustion 5/2008) been in Beta for some time now. Should be a 64bit version too...which will really open it up when working on these new 8 core workstations and 8-32GB of RAM...not to mention the new 15,000 RPM SAS drives. Can't wait.

[lazzhar]

... Not sure how Fusion or Shake's nodes are supposed to be superior to a system borrowed from a Flame.
....

What I don't like in Combustion is that masking operators effects is not as straightforward as in other programs.
Say you have to blur parts of your plate, in Fusion you use the Blur Tool then plug a mask into this one:
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/2851/42328727dm1.png


However in Combustion you need more nodes and work as well:
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/2999/61178714mt6.png

Or I could be missing something?

[beaker]

Not sure how Fusion or Shake's nodes are supposed to be superior to a system borrowed from a Flame.Fusion and Shake nodes are more derived from Chalice which was the first commercial compositor, not flame.

Shake and Fusion are just more flexible then Combustion. Combustion is really more of a roto/paint/motion graphics tool then a compositor. It just breaks under it's own weight with compositing and in float colorspace it is completely useless.

[dnashj33]

What I don't like in Combustion is that masking operators effects is not as straightforward as in other programs.
Say you have to blur parts of your plate, in Fusion you use the Blur Tool then plug a mask into this one:



However in Combustion you need more nodes and work as well:


Or I could be missing something?
Yeah...I think you are in this case. What you are trying to do there is use a MASK to do what a SELECTION is made for...to isolate an effect or filter on the same plate. That's how it's done in Photoshop, and AE I'm sure (using Selections). A Mask is intended to knock out part of the top layer to reveal the layer beneath.
However, using a SELECTION in Combustion would be the proper method and is real straighforward too. Very same steps you used, actually.
Can't blame Combustion because you decided to use a corkscrew to pop the top on a bottle of beer. :)

[Kai01W]

Not sure how Fusion or Shake's nodes are supposed to be superior to a system borrowed from a Flame.

Cause it is not true. The flames "batch" schematic is rather different to Combustions node view and closer to shake/fusion (you name it) though still rather different.
The problem with Combustions nodes is that it always needs to be somehow reflected in a layer tree and this causes pretty weird structures sometimes.
In flame you don't have layers until you go into an action node and even then those layers are different.
I think the only stuff borrowed from flame is color correction, keyers (though not all of them), the tracker (a little modified) and the rotoshapes (also modified not to the better imho).

-k

[dnashj33]

Fusion and Shake nodes are more derived from Chalice which was the first commercial compositor, not flame.

Shake and Fusion are just more flexible then Combustion. Combustion is really more of a roto/paint/motion graphics tool then a compositor. It just breaks under it's own weight with compositing and in float colorspace it is completely useless.Care to elaborate as to how you draw that conclusion. That sounds like a subjective statement, without specifics. Collapses under it's own weight? What is that supposed to mean?

What does Motion Graphics have to do with being able to set up your Max renders to output RPF files that allow more options in post...render elements already saved in a Combustion Workspace. RPF Motion blur and Retexturing in post, what does that have to do with Motion Graphics? Having the ability to use it's paint tools to paint textures and displacement maps live in Max. It's not a toy and is certainly good for alot more than Motion Graphics.

[beaker]

So I am incorrect, Combustion works just fine in float space? Smooth as butter, nice and peppy fast? Have you worked on a feature film with 50-100 2k layers of 3d and cineon plates and Combustion moves like the wind and doesn't crash like a sick dog? Ever tried to use Combustion on 4k plates? It is not a pretty sight.

There is a reason many houses dropped Combustion for their major compositing pipelines and moved to Shake or Fusion about 3-4 years ago.

[dnashj33]

So I am incorrect, Combustion works just fine in float space? Smooth as butter, nice and peppy fast? Have you worked on a feature film with 50-100 2k layers of 3d and cineon plates and Combustion moves like the wind and doesn't crash like a sick dog? Ever tried to use Combustion on 4k plates? It is not a pretty sight.

There is a reason many houses dropped Combustion for their major compositing pipelines and moved to Shake or Fusion about 3-4 years ago.I've been ready for an update for a while and would like better performance, no doubt...but when you use "Commit to Disk" with layers...yeah, it does run smooth as butter. You can always go back and edit that layer (Combustion maintains a link between the working layer and the rendered output of that layer, called the Switcher).
I may not lean on it as hard as you, but it's been pretty stable for me. Comparing it's performance 3-4 yrs ago, when Desktop capability was pretty lackluster, to Fusion's performance on much faster machines today hardly sounds like a fair comparison.
So, let me get this straight...Fusion can load a number of 4k plates, and you can instantly scrub through the timeline buttery-smooth...with no waiting for it to cache it into memory or your HD first? Boy did you show me? I feel so small all of a sudden.

Sorry you have had such a bad experience with Combustion. She's been pretty good to me.

[Aruna]

How is Combustion's "Commit to Disk" different that other packages "write to file" or "write a proxy"? I haven't used C in a while, not since version 1, so let me know.

I'm just confused, as you say you can scrub through image sequences, but then you have to "commit to disk" to do that? Sounds like a cache disk on some fast hard drives. Most desktop packages can scrub through proxies.

[dnashj33]

How is Combustion's "Commit to Disk" different that other packages "write to file" or "write a proxy"? I haven't used C in a while, not since version 1, so let me know.

I'm just confused, as you say you can scrub through image sequences, but then you have to "commit to disk" to do that? Sounds like a cache disk on some fast hard drives. Most desktop packages can scrub through proxies.I never said you had to Commit to Disk or that it was superior to what other compositors use....it just helps when the normal RAM caching isn't sufficiently fast enough for you.

Look, I am not trying to turn this into a Fusion or Nuke hatefest...I was just pointing out the fact that Combustion was a good option at the price point...Shake now is too (even if it's no longer being developed), and that it isn't the step-child among Compositors, like some of you are claiming. Being a daily user I pointed out some of its unique features...and have acknowledged that others have their own as well. But hating on Combustion and saying it's not really a compositor is just silly.

[beaker]

But hating on Combustion and saying it's not really a compositor is just silly.We're not hating, just saying that right tool for the right job from our practical experience. Roto/paint/motion graphics: great, compositing: a lot to be desired.

[beaker]

When I said smooth as butter, I mean in float colorspace, not the actual application itself? I just previously found working in 32 float makes Combustion a brick. Float is slower in Shake and Fusion, but it is not useless(nuke on the other hand is like butter with float).

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