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naik
10-15-2007, 10:20 PM
Hey guys -

i was wondering if this Upper Thread (Combustion) is dying.
I have also heard some rumors that Autodesk will not support Combustion anymore.
Does anyone of you heard something different or have better information about it?

It would be really a shame if that would happen in the future...

P.S Does Combustion uses more than one Proc. Core to render?
How about a quadcore?



Best regards

NAIK

beaker
10-16-2007, 06:16 AM
v2008 is in beta.

naik
10-16-2007, 07:16 AM
Sounds great beaker.
Any link to some site.
Couldnt find anything on the autodesk home.

By the way - is there anywhere a decent buglist for the latest
Combustion Version 4?
That would be awesome to check if some "errors" or bugs have been
reported or not - and i think there are quite some out there...

regrads

NAIK

beaker
10-16-2007, 08:21 AM
Your not going to find any links, it's beta. Companies don't talk about unannounced products.

As for bugs and stuff there is just the release notes pdf that comes with the newest update and the combustion page on autodesks website:
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/ps/index?siteID=123112&id=5586152&linkID=9241497

Other then that just log bugs with support and discuss them on the autodesk discussion group(online forum).

Rickmeister
10-22-2007, 09:20 PM
In the long run Autodesk Toxic will replace Combustion.

naik
10-22-2007, 09:37 PM
Hey guys -

i dont thinks so Rickmeister.
I have checked out some news and talked to several 3D Stores lately.
And the upcoming Combustion (2008) is going to be a "bomber"...

Sure you can not compare combustion with toxic.
I mean the price range difference is huge!
So now after reading and talking to others i cant imagine
Autodesk will drop their "low budget" compositing software "in the long run"
- that would be odd...

but time will tell mate - Autodesk was and is always good for a surprise - so
you never know - nevertheless, i hope that will not happen....


cheers

NAIK

beaker
10-23-2007, 01:15 AM
In the long run Autodesk Toxic will replace Combustion.I doubt it. Combustion is more on the Paint and Motion Graphics side of things where Toxik is on the feature film compositing side. Yes they overlap some but they both still have their own unique abilities. Also I don't see why they completely rewrote the osx version(4.04) if they planned on dumping it.

markdc
10-26-2007, 05:22 AM
v2008 is in beta.

This is great news.

DuttyFoot
10-28-2007, 02:42 AM
i dont think combustion is going anywhere either. i went to the autodesk road tour confrence in miami, and a old render was shown that was done with mray and max. it was then brought into combustion. the speaker said that even though he wasn't focused on showing much about combustion the next version is going to be an awesome release.

beaker
11-02-2007, 10:22 PM
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=123112&id=10244049

Combustion 2008 (expected availability Fall 2007)
The Colour Warper™ software color-correction tool made famous as part of Autodesk® Flame® software is now available in Autodesk Combustion 2008 software, along with improvements to Schematic and updated interoperability with Adobe® Photoshop® and Adobe® Illustrator® software.

lazzhar
11-03-2007, 01:57 PM
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=123112&id=10244049

Combustion 2008 (expected availability Fall 2007)
The Colour Warper™ software color-correction tool made famous as part of Autodesk® Flame® software is now available in Autodesk Combustion 2008 software, along with improvements to Schematic and updated interoperability with Adobe® Photoshop® and Adobe® Illustrator® software.

That's a *shy* way to announce a new release :argh:

Anyway, glad to read this.

WoolyLoach
11-05-2007, 03:17 PM
v2008 is in beta.

Excellent! I've been saving up for Combustion and I'd hate to think it wasn't going to get an update.

Back to eating Top Ramen.. :thumbsup:

Steve Green
11-07-2007, 06:56 PM
To be honest, (and I hate to say this), I think you'd be better off looking elsewhere.

The feature list that was leaked was really thin for 3 years of development. It didn't seem to be much more than maintenance.

At the very least, I'd wait to see what the official release is like - if it's still the same as what was released, I would look put my money towards something else.

- Steve

el_diablo
11-10-2007, 03:57 PM
Combustion can not expand its features more than higher priced Autodesk tools allow. Its development is stagnating for years. I dont see how it can include any revolutionary features if its placed as the base Autodesk compositing package...

And there are many in line at Autodesk.

Steve Green
11-10-2007, 04:11 PM
I can see their problem, but people will just drift away to products that aren't stagnating rather than automatically stay loyal to Autodesk products.

I don't think it has ever really recovered from the price yo-yoing around. It started just below the price of Max, then had a huge increase before it dropped to around After Effects levels.

There is a limit as to how long you can string customers along before they give up.

- Steve

thatoneguy
11-27-2007, 07:05 PM
Combustion 2008 feature list is back up on the official webpage.... and it's exactly the same as the original leaked "New Color Warper, Schematic View improvements and better photoshop and illustrator compatibility"

*YAWN.

For $150 they've sold me. For $500? Please. That sounds like 2 man years of work. Maybe the combustion team has only been one person slaving away for the last 3 years.

Steve Green
11-28-2007, 07:11 AM
From a post on Creative Cow...

"Autodesk anticipates that Combustion 2008 will be available in December 2007. The 2008 release will be supported on Macintosh and Windows operating systems. Autodesk suggested retail pricing is US$995*. The suggested upgrade price from Combustion 4 to Combustion 2008 is US$199*.

*International pricing may vary.**"

** I bet

- Steve

Kai01W
11-29-2007, 07:52 AM
So after seeing the "official announcement", I guess we can safely answer the original question of this thread:
yes, combustion is dead. scnr :thumbsup:

-k

McMaster
12-04-2007, 01:35 PM
Yes, this is what it absolutly looks like, on IBC I already asked autodesk staff if combustion is dead. Though I wonder, because toxic is missing the painter or anything to make titles and animate them, so it seems like autodesk is completly missing this market section. At the moment I do not know where to go, shake is also dead, after effects is a pain in the ass with its keyframe-appearance, fusion and nuke are quite and expensive...

beaker
12-04-2007, 07:04 PM
Though I wonder, because toxic is missing the painter or anything to make titles and animate them, so it seems like autodesk is completly missing this market section.Toxik has raster paint, just not vector paint.

At the moment I do not know where to go, shake is also dead, after effects is a pain in the ass with its keyframe-appearance, fusion and nuke are quite and expensive...Shake and Nuke are currently the way to go in feature film compositing. Too many big houses use Shake even though it is EOL to ignore it. Nuke looks to be the next big thing especially once v5 comes out which will make it even easier for people to transition over since the fugly interface will be gone. Fusion is mostly Windows only and a hacked linux version that runs under Wine which severly limits it's use in any large houses.

I don't know why your even comparing Combustion to any of these. It is in a completely different user base then any of the node based compositors.

Almir
12-05-2007, 12:13 AM
Color wraper?
Fix your pre-multiplied alpha problem first, what kind of compositing package that can un-multiply alpha from an image? and please can we have better support for OpenGL? it's one thng you don't support DX but the OpenGL really sux. glad toxik can be used now on desktops with no quadro now :)
~sion

McMaster
12-05-2007, 07:19 AM
Toxik has raster paint, just not vector paint.

Shake and Nuke are currently the way to go in feature film compositing. Too many big houses use Shake even though it is EOL to ignore it. Nuke looks to be the next big thing especially once v5 comes out which will make it even easier for people to transition over since the fugly interface will be gone. Fusion is mostly Windows only and a hacked linux version that runs under Wine which severly limits it's use in any large houses.

I don't know why your even comparing Combustion to any of these. It is in a completely different user base then any of the node based compositors.

I didn't want to compare them as such, I just wanted to have a look at what options there are, even though prices vary a lot.

un-multiply alpha
What exactly do you mean by this?

lazzhar
12-06-2007, 03:21 PM
The official website is updated and you can now download the 30 days free trial.
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=5562397

thatoneguy
12-07-2007, 04:49 PM
The real new feature list:

What's New

The following lists the new features in Combustion2008.


The Color Warper operator provides you with advanced color correction tools for everything from subtle color modifications to artistic effects. You can manipulate all of the colors within a frame, or modify selected color ranges. See Color Warper (http://forums.cgsociety.org/javascript:WWHClickedPopup('ACombustion_help', 'ACombustion_help-27-01.html');).
The vectorscope displays a 2D or 3D histogram mapped to a color wheel to help you accurately manage color matching, perform color correction, and conform to NTSC broadcast standards. See Using the Vectorscope (http://forums.cgsociety.org/javascript:WWHClickedPopup('ACombustion_help', 'ACombustion_help-04-20.html');).
The schematic workflow has been enhanced to include quicker and easier ways to restructure nodes in your process tree. You can also import footage or add a solid layer from the Schematic view using the context menu. See Using Schematic View (http://forums.cgsociety.org/javascript:WWHClickedPopup('ACombustion_help', 'ACombustion_help-08-1.html');).
Frame rate, pixel aspect ratio, and field order overrides can be independently set for imported footage. These options can be changed while importing footage through a file browser, or set as defaults in the Footage Import Preferences. See Setting Footage Import Preferences (http://forums.cgsociety.org/javascript:WWHClickedPopup('ACombustion_help', 'ACombustion_help-04-21.html#wp208034');) and Importing an Image Sequence (http://forums.cgsociety.org/javascript:WWHClickedPopup('ACombustion_help', 'ACombustion_help-06-09.html#wp39634');).
Multiple viewports can be synchronized for simultaneous playback. See Using the Playback Controls (http://forums.cgsociety.org/javascript:WWHClickedPopup('ACombustion_help', 'ACombustion_help-04-15.html');).
Paint objects can be displayed for a specific number of frames. See Settings Controls (http://forums.cgsociety.org/javascript:WWHClickedPopup('ACombustion_help', 'ACombustion_help-18-15.html');).
Display operators in the viewport by dragging them from the workspace or the schematic. See Displaying Operators in the Viewport (http://forums.cgsociety.org/javascript:WWHClickedPopup('ACombustion_help', 'ACombustion_help-04-08.html#wp25853');).
Transforming a layer using the Composite Control panel or the Timeline list only sets keyframes on the specific X, Y, or Z channel being modified. See Creating Keyframes (http://forums.cgsociety.org/javascript:WWHClickedPopup('ACombustion_help', 'ACombustion_help-14-08.html');).
Switch to the Footage Library view by right-clicking in a viewport. See Using Footage Library View (http://forums.cgsociety.org/javascript:WWHClickedPopup('ACombustion_help', 'ACombustion_help-08-7.html');).

Almir
12-08-2007, 07:52 AM
@McMaster:
see lazzhar and me had a very vivid discussion about this topic before, it's kinda weird to explain out of the blue, but have you ever rendered a float say an RPF (combustion favourite float format), with pre-multiplied alpha for example a blue ball with motion blur, and tried to comp that against a white background? you'll get all sort of nasty blackness around the edges, because combustion does NOT un-multiply alpha, actually it can not - as far as I know-, so one says choose a better environment color -black-, while this is not always possible - think mr sun and sky, you need the sky, and the background will be premultiplied with blue-, even if you choose black, and try something fancy say Colorcorrect and 3d DOF, you'll get a very nast aliasing around the edges in focus, even though you spent a lot of time for that render to finish with 16/64 samples from max (which is ALOT).
if this is not clear I could elaborate more, I think anyone used float and combustion had run into this before, that's why I dumped it for Fusion - I miss the awesome color correcting operators though-.
~sion

Almir
12-08-2007, 07:55 AM
I also think that node based composting -real node no schematic stuff- is like sex, once you try it it's kinda difficult to replace it with anything else. :love:
~sion :P

lazzhar
12-08-2007, 12:34 PM
The real new feature list:

What's New

The following lists the new features in Combustion2008.



The Color Warper operator provides you with advanced color correction tools for everything from subtle color modifications to artistic effects. You can manipulate all of the colors within a frame, or modify selected color ranges. See Color Warper (http://forums.cgsociety.org/javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:WWHClickedPopup%28%27ACombustion_help%27,%20%27ACombustion_help-27-01.html%27%29;).
The vectorscope displays a 2D or 3D histogram mapped to a color wheel to help you accurately manage color matching, perform color correction, and conform to NTSC broadcast standards. See Using the Vectorscope (http://forums.cgsociety.org/javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:WWHClickedPopup%28%27ACombustion_help%27,%20%27ACombustion_help-04-20.html%27%29;).
The schematic workflow has been enhanced to include quicker and easier ways to restructure nodes in your process tree. You can also import footage or add a solid layer from the Schematic view using the context menu. See Using Schematic View (http://forums.cgsociety.org/javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:WWHClickedPopup%28%27ACombustion_help%27,%20%27ACombustion_help-08-1.html%27%29;).
Frame rate, pixel aspect ratio, and field order overrides can be independently set for imported footage. These options can be changed while importing footage through a file browser, or set as defaults in the Footage Import Preferences. See Setting Footage Import Preferences (http://forums.cgsociety.org/javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:WWHClickedPopup%28%27ACombustion_help%27,%20%27ACombustion_help-04-21.html#wp208034%27%29;) and Importing an Image Sequence (http://forums.cgsociety.org/javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:WWHClickedPopup%28%27ACombustion_help%27,%20%27ACombustion_help-06-09.html#wp39634%27%29;).
Multiple viewports can be synchronized for simultaneous playback. See Using the Playback Controls (http://forums.cgsociety.org/javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:WWHClickedPopup%28%27ACombustion_help%27,%20%27ACombustion_help-04-15.html%27%29;).
Paint objects can be displayed for a specific number of frames. See Settings Controls (http://forums.cgsociety.org/javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:WWHClickedPopup%28%27ACombustion_help%27,%20%27ACombustion_help-18-15.html%27%29;).
Display operators in the viewport by dragging them from the workspace or the schematic. See Displaying Operators in the Viewport (http://forums.cgsociety.org/javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:WWHClickedPopup%28%27ACombustion_help%27,%20%27ACombustion_help-04-08.html#wp25853%27%29;).
Transforming a layer using the Composite Control panel or the Timeline list only sets keyframes on the specific X, Y, or Z channel being modified. See Creating Keyframes (http://forums.cgsociety.org/javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:WWHClickedPopup%28%27ACombustion_help%27,%20%27ACombustion_help-14-08.html%27%29;).
Switch to the Footage Library view by right-clicking in a viewport. See Using Footage Library View (http://forums.cgsociety.org/javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:WWHClickedPopup%28%27ACombustion_help%27,%20%27ACombustion_help-08-7.html%27%29;).

I think there might be some changes here and there not mentioned at all.
In the few minutes I tryed it, it looks like the Diamond Keyer was updated with a Blur parameter or something.

McMaster
12-08-2007, 07:44 PM
I also think that node based composting -real node no schematic stuff- is like sex, once you try it it's kinda difficult to replace it with anything else. :love:
~sion :P

Thats true, I once tried Toxic and think the workflow is real cool, and I think if it had vectorpaint and some options for Text, and maybe stuff like illustrator-import I would go for it...
Maybe I really have to take a closer look to fusion.

Almir
12-09-2007, 10:31 AM
Maybe I really have to take a closer look to fusion.
Highly recommended.
I wish Apple could cut us some slack -we max users who has to use windows- and devolops Shake for windows too /or that new program-replacement they're cooking.
~sion

PiXeL_MoNKeY
12-10-2007, 02:26 PM
I wish Apple could cut us some slack -we max users who has to use windows- and devolops Shake for windows too /or that new program-replacement they're cooking.
~sionLOL, you have a better chance of 3ds Max running native in OSX before Apple develops tools for other platforms. They are a hardware company that uses their software to sell the hardware. Just like OSX will only run on their hardware. If they wanted to they could make it run on other hardware, but again they are a hardware company. If you want to use FCP or OSX you have to buy their hardware.

-Eric

Almir
12-11-2007, 07:55 AM
If they wanted to they could make it run on other hardware
Shake was available on windows until version 2.4something I think, I tried it, you had to do a nasty OpenGL switch in your system, applying a checker map and refreshing took like ever, Shake is a very powerful application, it's really disappointing to promote your products like that, regardless of my respect for Apple's products consistency.
-I think the thread is way off course already, so no harm done, no? :rolleyes: -
~sion

lazzhar
12-11-2007, 09:46 AM
...
-I think the thread is way off course already, so no harm done, no? :rolleyes: -
~sion

LOL, the point of this thread is to ask if COmbustion is dead or alive, and it's obvisous that with this C 2008 , it's already born dead... still we can call it zombie though.

McMaster
12-13-2007, 06:09 PM
Is Combustion 2008 ready for 64-bit?
I couldn't find anything about that...

PiXeL_MoNKeY
12-13-2007, 06:34 PM
Combustion is 32-bit, and in my opinion it will be for a while. For example, if it went 64bit you would lose Quicktime and After Effects plugin support. Since neither Apple nor Adobe have adopted 64bit for their products nor their SDKs, then 64bit applications can't support them.

-Eric

Slugger
12-13-2007, 06:59 PM
Is Combustion 2008 ready for 64-bit?
I couldn't find anything about that...

McMaster, combust works in XP-64, word from my autodesk reseller was that it should work just fine and it does(i've recently switched to 64bit), how things are with QT options(with xp 64-bit/combust 32-bit) i don't know

cheers,

k.

PiXeL_MoNKeY
12-13-2007, 07:38 PM
The plugin and application must be 32bit, so Quicktime will work with Combustion under XP64. The problem is there is no 64bit QT so you couldn't use it in a 64bit Combustion, same with the AE plugins. All plugins, libraries, and/or dependencies must be 64bit, you can't mix them.

-Eric

Steve Green
12-13-2007, 07:57 PM
I don't see why they couldn't work around the quicktime issue by having *c commit to disk and run the files through a separate 32bit app just for that purpose.

It would also mean that you could network render a job which would then be compiled into a quicktime.

As for the plugin situation, again I think Autodesk should not be so reliant on plugin architecture and produce decent versions of the common useful plugins (DOF, motion blur etc.) that run natively. I use RSMB, Lenscare, Shine and KLF mainly - if there were native versions of those I wouldn't really miss any other AE plugins to be honest.

Does Toxik have decent DOF and motion blur at all, or is the same as combustion's? If not, maybe they should develop the base code for these and share them between apps.

- Steve

PiXeL_MoNKeY
12-13-2007, 09:18 PM
You forget that RE:Flex is an AE plugin (.aex file) so a 64bit Combustion would mean that the RE:Flex tools would no longer be available. I doubt AME wants to deal with why it is missing, since most people can't seem to wrap their mind around why Combustion (and most other desktop compositors) are 32bit.

-Eric

McMaster
12-13-2007, 09:39 PM
If I remember right this Combustion-Update took 3 years, so I bet that before another 3 years go by Adobe will have its stuff 64-bit ready and most of the plugin-developers aswell.

So either autodesk brings out the next release faster or combustion is really dying...

Steve Green
12-13-2007, 10:16 PM
Well, I don't use it since I primarily use it for comping all CG rather than CG and live-action.

There's nothing stopping them writing their own warper - this is the big drawback of plugins, you're at the mercy of the plugin makers, rather than developing features internally.

There's also the issue that plugins may not be totally compatible either, such as Form or Particular, either because they use AE specifics or the combustion user base is considered a seconday importance to AE users.

I'm not holding my breath for anything like that though.

Cheers,

- Steve

lazzhar
12-19-2007, 05:56 AM
I thought this would be interesting to some of people here, Ken LaRue posted on the creativecow forums some video demonstration of the new C2008 :
http://www.thestreetproductions.com (http://www.thestreetproductions.com/)

aglick
12-23-2007, 06:17 AM
Combustion is still used on a daily basis by thousands of facilities.

It seems lkely that Autodesk is trying to figure out where to take combustion (and i't user base) but for now it's clear that it will continue to be sold and supported for the foreseeable future.

I like combustion. I think it has an elegant UI and a nice, deep toolset. There are a few tools such as masks, vector paint and a particle system that are very much on-par with anything else on the market in the under $5K price range. The keyer ain't too shabby either...

If you are using MAX (or to a lesser extent Maya) there's the added bbenefit of a well established workflow for moving assets between 2D and 3D workspaces. It also makes great sense as a seat to support IFFS (formerly discrete advanced systems) in this regard.

On the other hand, Toxic, for what it does, is blindingly fast and powerful. It has awesome interop/workflow with Maya and (obviously) IFFS. And you gotta love the idea of working in an HDRI-friendly environment.

Aside from the normal in-house development at Autodesk, I'm guessing (err, well hoping) that plugin developers will take advantage of the SPARKS and OFX APIs. This would broaden Toxik's range of capabilities and allow them to position it with more flexibility -and sooner.

I could see people spending $1K-$2K for an HD-limited version of Toxic...especially if it had the toolset to replace the range of most of combustion's capabilities.

In the mean time, for a thousand bucks, combustion seems like a pretty good deal.

nrgy
12-23-2007, 03:06 PM
I could see people spending $1K-$2K for an HD-limited version of Toxic...especially if it had the toolset to replace the range of most of combustion's capabilities.
Please don't excourage them any more. They already do that now with FFI and there is no reason to start spliting other appliations apart. Look at Imagineer Systems... They have 5 applications that could/should be in nothing more than one or two single applications, not 5.

If you are a Combustion user and think 3 years between releases (and a lame update such as 2008 is) is ok than you are in the extreme minority.

If I relied on and paid good money for an application and the release cycle went in the dumps, then I'd start looking elsewhere just as Combustion users are doing now. Sure you can use Combustion to get things done, thats not the problem. The problem is that requirements are only increasing with time, having a stagnet development cycle such as Combustion will eventually make it worth nothing more than wasting hard drive space.

Look at Combustion and After Affects. Both targeted at the same price range and market, yet one has a far larger toolset. It would be extremly hard for me if I were looking at the two applications to choose Combustion over After Affects. Its a no brainer.

As for plugin developers, last I looked Autodesk was a PITA to get yourself setup to start developing tools for there applications. I looked at Autodesk applications to start developing for, however once I seen the processes involved and $money required it wasn't even worth it.

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