What render passes for maximum post production control?

[beenyweenies]

The real questions are:

1. how long (running time) is the final animation?
2. how long does a render of the full animation take currently?
3. how large is your budget?

Render passes are most practical in an environment (typically very large productions) where the client will actually be very picky over the things render passes get you. For example, will your client REALLY be coming back to you asking that the specularity be dropped back slightly or the highlight color shifted slightly? These are the types of issues render passes solve. In my experience, typical clients are focused on bigger issues that render passes would not solve at all, but your current project may be different. On smaller productions, most of these issues should be resolved via sample stills prior to final render anyway.

Also consider that setting up and rendering out all those passes will take much longer than just rendering out the complete shot, especially when you factor in all the added time needed for compositing etc. Will this added production time more than make up for the potential that your client might want reduced specularity AFTER your final render?

[mixermanic]

Hi Brendan,

Thanks for the reply.

To briefly answer the questions:

1 - There is about 1 1/2 hours (it is a concert, and the animation is used as a backdrop - virtual scenery almost), but a lot of it is looped, so probably in *total* about 45 minutes of animation...

2 - Still testing that... In (*VERY*) early tests it was about 6 hours per frame, but that was exceptionally early on in the design phase and before changing renderer. Because it has to be projected on such a large screen the frames unfortunately have to be 2k... The new renderer is much faster now...

3 - Hahahahahahahahahaha!! ;) Nil, nada, niente.... I am my client in this case (and to answer your question later on, no I won't be worried about changing specularity etc etc, but I *may* want to change the overall mood of the piece - adjusting lighting and modifying the colour perhaps...)

Also consider that setting up and rendering out all those passes will take much longer than just rendering out the complete shot, especially when you factor in all the added time needed for compositing etc. Will this added production time more than make up for the potential

No :D . Ideally I want to render everything out in 1 pass, but I know me and I know I will want to make little tweaks :wip:

I am already rendering out 3 or 4 layers as it is to separate certain elements (and so that my machine doesn't keep falling over!)

Thanks,

Martin

[scrimski]

Which program do you use? In 3dsMax rendering the render elements doesn't add much time, the only thing you may *waste* is disk space.
I would rather add passes, like for single lights/spots and a normal pass but get rid of the GI.

[mixermanic]

There is a bit in Max, and for that I am using V-Ray (rendering to PSD files using PSD Manager)

The majority of the work is being done in Maya though, and being rendered with RenderMan for Maya (2), apart from the ocean elements being rendered in MR.

I'm not worried about *wasting* disk space - storage is cheap... Time is the only factor though.

EDIT: Something I forgot to mention. For many of the shots, there are long periods where the only things varying are the effects - smoke and fire mainly. The background stays exactly the same, so for a lot of the shots I will only be rendering the background layer once (the camera rarely moves)... So rendering multiple passes isn't going to be too much of a waste of time/space.

M

[beenyweenies]

Even at 2k, I can't possibly imagine what you are working on that is taking 6 hours per frame. I know it's possible, but I have worked on scenes with 6 million polys, GI, HDRI and final gather at 1200x1000 pixels and my render times were STILL only about 45 minutes per frame once optimization was performed. I know those time were based on early tests, but surely there will be room to optimize your render times!

Given the length of the project and the render times, you may very well be better off rendering passes.

[mixermanic]

Even at 2k, I can't possibly imagine what you are working on that is taking 6 hours per frame. I know it's possible, but I have worked on scenes with 6 million polys, GI, HDRI and final gather at 1200x1000 pixels and my render times were STILL only about 45 minutes per frame once optimization was performed. I know those time were based on early tests, but surely there will be room to optimize your render times!

Given the length of the project and the render times, you may very well be better off rendering passes.

:D As I said - these were initial tests. The scenes were not optimised and I knew much much less than I knew now (and even that's not much...!)

This I think is destined to be the largest environment in the whole sequence - a highly detailed recreation of "The Emerald City", complete with thunderstorms, fireballs, smoke etc etc.

M

[beenyweenies]

That's cool. It might be more beneficial for you to consider ways to create some of those effects outside of Maya rather than focusing on the render side of the equation. For example, storm clouds, fireballs etc. can all be created quite convincingly using a mixture of Particular for AE and Wondertouch Particle Illusion. This way, when you need to do tweaks you're not looking at a 4 day re-render, and even performing those tweaks is generally easier than it would be with Maya particle systems.

[mixermanic]

That's cool. It might be more beneficial for you to consider ways to create some of those effects outside of Maya rather than focusing on the render side of the equation. For example, storm clouds, fireballs etc. can all be created quite convincingly using a mixture of Particular for AE and Wondertouch Particle Illusion. This way, when you need to do tweaks you're not looking at a 4 day re-render, and even performing those tweaks is generally easier than it would be with Maya particle systems.

Thanks for the tip Brendan! I have to admit that my knowledge of effects plugs for use in comp applications is VERY limited (even more so than 3D apps themselves ;) - I am however enjoying this learning curve!)

I will look into Particular and Particle Illusion.

As a reference, the *kind* of effect I am after for the storm clouds is that of the long distance shots of Mordor in LotR. Heavy, dark, rolling clouds with sheet lightning lighting up the sky, and the occasional fork of lightning (that's a can of worms I haven't even thought about yet!)

Cheers,

Martin

[Mylenium]

As a reference, the *kind* of effect I am after for the storm clouds is that of the long distance shots of Mordor in LotR. Heavy, dark, rolling clouds with sheet lightning lighting up the sky, and the occasional fork of lightning (that's a can of worms I haven't even thought about yet!)

Cloud tank footage with some additional layered Fractal noise works wonders... Lightnings can created easily with the Lightning/ Advanced Lightning effects in AE or Particular even. You can also use PaintFX in Maya

Mylenium

[beenyweenies]

You could also try comping in some stock footage of real clouds. There are a billion stock video sites out there (try fotosearch.com, corbis, etc.) with thousands of options. Just try googling "Sky stock footage" and you will see what I mean. After all, why reinvent the wheel trying to do everything in 3D or with an effect when the real thing would look more realistic ;) and probably save you thousands of dollars/dozens of hours?

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