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View Full Version : Spielberg confirms he is jumping into the Perfomance Capture Bandwagon-Tin Tin Movie


RobertoOrtiz
10-11-2007, 03:41 PM
On a recent set visit to the Indy 4 set Spielberg confirmed that he will be working with WETA (and Peter Jackson!) doing a perfomrance capture movie based on the tales of TIn Tin.

WOW

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/34376

-R

PhuongDPh
10-11-2007, 04:00 PM
I wonder that what SFX will be used in Tin Tin ?
http://forums.cgsociety.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

Jassar
10-11-2007, 04:03 PM
Ah great! I've always liked tin tin :D , and I guess PJ is the best choice to do it!

deatheater4ever
10-11-2007, 04:09 PM
I hope the first movie is Tintin in America ..Its total non stop fun from start to end ..... I wonder why are they using Mo cap when animating by hand is definately more suitable for the series.
Captian Haddock should be introduced in the second movie like The Cigars of the Pharoh ..........along with Prof Calculus and of course to be precise the thompson twins

Apoclypse
10-11-2007, 05:05 PM
Andy Serkis has work for life now.

Buexe
10-11-2007, 05:12 PM
Andy Serkis has work for life now.

LOL, as Snowy, the dog? : )

bentllama
10-11-2007, 05:28 PM
Wow. You think the SUCK that polar express and beowulf is would deter even speilberg to create such nonsense, but alas he has joined the ranks of the hollywood obscene



Performance Capture. *groan* Granted WETA handles their mocap the best out of anyone in the insustry, but I just do not see Andy Circus in the role of Tin Tin! He could make a great Tin Tin's dad or whatever that old dude with teh mustache is... ;)



Tin Tin, at least to the classical animator in me, does not seem like the best property for mocap and especially perfomance capture. Ugh. Monster House was only a semi-success because it had a cute original story and to my understanding a large part of it was hand-keyed and/or re-tooled by animators.


Is it horrible that I want this movie to fail to finally put the abuse of mocap to bed?

DangerAhead
10-11-2007, 06:31 PM
Bent Lama.

mocap ain't going away.
And it ain't going to bed.

It'll only get better and better.

Artbot
10-11-2007, 06:32 PM
I'm in the same boat as Nathan on this. I just don't "get" performance capture. It seems to be an unnecessarily complex middle-ground between animation and live action that has none of the positive attributes of either. Motion capture makes sense as a production tool and has many useful applications (though it is sometimes over-relied upon). Acting, is, well, acting! Why on earth someone would want to degrade the performance of a Sir Anthony Hopkins or John Malkovich? Or worse, go through all the undoubtedly complicated hurdles to capture it exactly and transfer that to another medium?

Even if they were somehow magically able to capture every tiny nuance and detail of a facial performance, what's the point? Just leave the actor in there! Process the image if you have to, perhaps to match some fantastical art direction style or whatever, but leave them in there!

In Doug Chiang's interview on ImagineFX, he speaks of performance cap as something in its infancy that will someday mature into, uh, what again? They seem to be fascinated with the idea that they are attempting something groundbreaking and revolutionary, but I just don't see it - and I have a pretty vivid imagination!

mdee
10-11-2007, 07:14 PM
Bent Lama.

mocap ain't going away.
And it ain't going to bed.

It'll only get better and better.

True. If prominent Hollywood execs and directors are fascinated by it, this is bound to happen.

Personally, I am very curious how mocapped Tin Tin movie will turn out, especially with Steven Spielberg involved.

rblitz7
10-11-2007, 07:20 PM
What the hell? forget about complaining about the motion capture....why is it gonna be in 3d?! shoudln't this be in 2d? I mean we didnt make the simpsons movie in 3d, why do it to this?

BigPixolin
10-11-2007, 07:22 PM
Maybee he is jumping off the hand animated bandwagon.


The general public seems more acceptible to mocap than hand animation.
They can relate to it better than someone that moves like a gummy bear.
Cg artist purists are the only one that have a problem with it. And I got a news flash these movies aren't made for cg industry folk.

BigPixolin
10-11-2007, 07:25 PM
What the hell? forget about complaining about the motion capture....why is it gonna be in 3d?!

2D doesn't fill the theaters anymore.

bentllama
10-11-2007, 07:33 PM
Bent Lama.

mocap ain't going away.
And it ain't going to bed.

It'll only get better and better.

read the type man...I said "abuse". I want the ABUSE of mocap to stop. I never said mocap was not a valid tool. I even bolded the word as to not be miscontrued. Jeez.

Malcolm7
10-11-2007, 11:50 PM
The general public will flood the thearthers when they will see a 3D animated story of Tin Tin. Dvds of this will also sale like hot cakes, people will want to see Tin Tin on there expensive Hi-def tv or there brand new Christmas present Blu-ray or HDVD player. Sorry but that's the truth .

But BigPixolin said it best and needs to be pasted at least two more times,because he hit it right on the head:
2D doesn't fill the theaters anymore.
2D doesn't fill the theaters anymore.

one more :
2D doesn't fill the theaters anymore.

As for the Simpson ,it has been running on American tv for years.When was the last time you saw Tin Tin on a US station on a kids T-shirt at Mc donalds ect... ?

I remember reading Tin Tin books only as a kid, on televison I saw it a couple of times, and it was all in french in other words decades ago.So a 3D Tin Tin for me will be awsome even i Mocap is used,I'm not in the CG Biz .. so all this details mean nothing to me .. just make it good and fun :scream:

fbonniwell
10-12-2007, 01:18 AM
Wow. You think the SUCK that polar express and beowulf is would deter even speilberg to create such nonsense, but alas he has joined the ranks of the hollywood obscene



Performance Capture. *groan* Granted WETA handles their mocap the best out of anyone in the insustry, but I just do not see Andy Circus in the role of Tin Tin! He could make a great Tin Tin's dad or whatever that old dude with teh mustache is... ;)



Tin Tin, at least to the classical animator in me, does not seem like the best property for mocap and especially perfomance capture. Ugh. Monster House was only a semi-success because it had a cute original story and to my understanding a large part of it was hand-keyed and/or re-tooled by animators.


Is it horrible that I want this movie to fail to finally put the abuse of mocap to bed?


Every performance capture film to date was heavily augmented by animators. As a matter of fact, a good amount of the original animators from polar express and Beowulf worked on Monster House.

Mic_Ma
10-12-2007, 01:25 AM
Hmm...I kind of trust Spielberg on this one. It is a very challenging project to get right and I'm sure he gives it a lot of thought and consideration. I'm looking forward to see the end-result!

bentllama
10-12-2007, 05:24 AM
Every performance capture film to date was heavily augmented by animators. As a matter of fact, a good amount of the original animators from polar express and Beowulf worked on Monster House.

heavily augmented and in my opinion they still look awful...there is a theme going on here.

grrinc
10-12-2007, 07:56 AM
I thought Monster House was a step in the right direction. With SS and PJ onboard, I am sure they will have something up thier sleeves. Besides, I think the general public dont have the same problem with mocap then perhaps guys involved in CG.

Broesworth
10-12-2007, 08:19 AM
2D doesn't fill the theaters anymore.

You say this as though its a self explanatory statement, but what does this even mean? Did the inherent qualities of 2D 'fill theatres' before or was it the quality of the movies that filled theatres? Does this mean any movie that is 3D will therefore fill theatres? If, theoretically, the Lion King were to be released tomorrow, would it bomb because '2D doesn't fill theaters anymore'?

cresshead
10-12-2007, 01:15 PM
sounds a great idea...3D sells well in cinema's and on dvd too.
i have the tin tin dvd collection and the stories are good so i can see a collection of these 3d versions coming out once the public SEE the first 3d film of tin tin.

i have no probs with mo cap as long as it's done as good as roughnecks, monster house or renaisence.

Gentle Fury
10-12-2007, 06:31 PM
ummmm, well I guess if you want to claim MoCap WETA is the way to go since they only use it as reference and their amazing animation team does 97% of the work......just yet another way to put focus on a technology to draw crowds and away from talented artists that really made it possible.

All I have to say is, I wanna see a director, a bunch of actors in ping pong suits and a computer make a feature length animated film by themselves........good luck!

Malcolm7
10-12-2007, 10:28 PM
Broesworth
You say this as though its a self explanatory statement, but what does this even mean? Did the inherent qualities of 2D 'fill theatres' before or was it the quality of the movies that filled theatres?

It's only a complicated statement if you want to make it complicated to sound Smart.

I saw the transformers movie 3 times .. yes 3 !! . I don't think that I would of seen it 3 times if it was 2d Animated maybe once, Be honest, didn't the fact that it whas an old 2D animation that we all grew up watching and now at an older age with this 3d compositing Visual FX magic (super Magic really) around , wouldn't that be the proper if not smarter direction to go. aren't they supposed to be super advanced Technologicaly and all that stuff .? well 3d fits them better then 2d would have. The lion king is a diffent beast .. so the call to make it 2D was right on the money.
And you know that someone or better yet a small group of people had to make the desicion 2D or 3D.

At the end of the day is up to the producers/directors and studios gut feeling Budget and forseeable revenues...yes that's right, it's not an exact science but it seems to make sense to do it 3D.

We all have seen Tin Tin in 2d before, for decades some of us. So what's to bring me in the theaters ? Another 2D animated Tin Tin with richer colors ? None sense.

With the way that the Incredibles was made and looked in the back of my mind, I can't wait to see a 3D Tin Tin... :thumbsup:

Broesworth
10-13-2007, 02:35 AM
Im not trying to sound smart, Im more wondering why you thought that statement was so insightful you repeated it 3 times in a row.

Yeah Transformers as live action/3D was a fantastic project for using the latest 3D technology, it added a huge amount over and above the original. Are you sure that a 3D production will do the same for Tintin? Is 3D automatically the right choice for this show because '2D doesn't fill theaters anymore?

Personally, if I went to a Tintin movie I would be hoping that the style would capture and enhance the essence of the books, if it didn't, what would be the point? Did Tintin not have a great visual style already thats worked well for what, 40? 50 years now? Why change it? The point here is not that you shouldn't change it, but that if you do you would want to be certain that you were adding something very significant to the show, and not losing a great deal in translation. Otherwise you are not using technology to make the movie better, but simply for technologies sake. This never makes for good filmmaking.

Im not saying a 3D Tintin movie will suck. Hopefully its awesome. Im saying that the move to 3D (especially relying very heavily on mocap) is risky because whilst you gain allot of new filmmaking advantages from a 3D production, you also face the risk of losing much of what made the original Tintin great. Some mocap looks amazing, other mocap looks floaty and fake. Im betting most audiences are not really interested in seeing Tintin characters float about the screen, they're interested in seeing Tintin come to life in movie form, in a way which expands upon the original works. No matter what production methods are used to do that.

I think a 2D Tintin movie, which made good use of 3D and compositing elements where it helped the visuals, would be just as commercially viable as a 3D production.

bentllama
10-13-2007, 04:41 AM
I think a 2D Tintin movie, which made good use of 3D and compositing elements where it helped the visuals, would be just as commercially viable as a 3D production.

Hear hear. I concur.

Apoclypse
10-13-2007, 07:34 AM
Every performance capture film to date was heavily augmented by animators. As a matter of fact, a good amount of the original animators from polar express and Beowulf worked on Monster House.

Is this supposed to be a good thing? I personlly thing Polar Express and Monster House animated like ass. Beowulf I havent seen so I can't say much about it. PJ understands that MoCap is just a tool. Zemeckis doesn't understand animtion at all and looks it from the point of view of a technician, manly it should work without help from an animator. The problem with that form of thinking is that he relies to much on technology to do th work as opposed to the human element which is what really makes animation shine.

anakinbrego
10-13-2007, 01:19 PM
What Peter Jackson and Steven Spielberg are using a new version of motion capture technology by James Cameron that's being used on AVATAR, that hasn't been publiclly seen yet, that promises photorealism. Spielberg want to use this new version of mocap so the characters will retain the look of the way they look in the illustrations.

RobertoOrtiz
10-13-2007, 01:37 PM
What Peter Jackson and Steven Spielberg are using a new version of motion capture technology by James Cameron that's being used on AVATAR, that hasn't been publiclly seen yet, that promises photorealism. Spielberg want to use this new version of mocap so the characters will retain the look of the way they look in the illustrations.

So you mean it would be a hybrid realistic motion/ cartonny look right?
In other words it would be like the look they went for in Monster House but taken to the next step.

-R

bentllama
10-13-2007, 10:15 PM
http://www.cnet.com.au/i/r/2006/Games/uncannyvalley1_422x330.jpg

hello and welcome to the uncanny valley, enjoy your stay.

Buexe
10-13-2007, 11:36 PM
This is the chart I see almost in every speech on cg I go to. Usually the presenters seemed to have not much more insight into this topic to offer. If it gets used more often they should make it a template in powerpoint . Mocap will be there to stay. IMO because the people making decisions can rethink their previous decisions until the very last minute, like "Hey, I don`t care what I said yesterday, put that camera there now, or I`ll have your xxx fried!". Oh, in the english speaking world you say it more politely of course, like "Hey, wouldn`t it be nice if we try to move the camera a little bit over here and see what it looks like." : )

Venkman
10-14-2007, 03:48 AM
Most people here are pretty familiar with the uncanny valley chart. Unless my eyes deceive me, that line goes back up on the right side before it gets to "healthy person".

I think we're on our way up the right side of that valley in that chart. Notice how steep it is on the right side of the "moving" dotted line! It may still take a while before we're into the "human likeness" category again.

I applaud those who even try to climb that steep valley wall. It can't be easy with so many people demanding they stop trying to climb it.

What have we got to lose by trying, besides those highly payed Hollywood actors?

anakinbrego
10-14-2007, 05:55 AM
So you mean it would be a hybrid realistic motion/ cartonny look right?
In other words it would be like the look they went for in Monster House but taken to the next step.

-R

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/6656635.stm

"Spielberg told the publication: "Herge's characters have been reborn as living beings, expressing emotion and a soul which goes far beyond anything we've seen to date with computer animated characters. We want Tintin's adventures to have the reality of a live-action film, and yet Peter and I felt that shooting them in a traditional live-action format would simply not honour the distinctive look of the characters and world that Herge created."

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/film/article1830463.ece

Were making the characters look photorealistic the fibres of their clothing, the pores of their skin and each individual hair, Jackson says. Its possible that the work, certainly on the first one, could well be starting this year,

SheepFactory
10-14-2007, 07:13 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/6656635.stm

"Spielberg told the publication: "Herge's characters have been reborn as living beings, expressing emotion and a soul which goes far beyond anything we've seen to date with computer animated characters.


Thanks to the miracle of moc...performance capture we will finally have characters that express emotion and have personalities! truly amazing.

Artbot
10-14-2007, 04:01 PM
Thanks to the miracle of moc...performance capture we will finally have characters that express emotion and have personalities! truly amazing.

Now if they could only invent a moving picture device we could point at these performance capture players as they emote. That would cut out the whole time-wasting technical stuff in the middle and let you get right to the performance! Hey, I can dream, can't I?

ManuelM
10-15-2007, 05:13 AM
it's tintin, which means i will go and see it the day it comes out and so will millions of fans alike. let's see what kind of style they'll come up with. afaik the original drawings from herge look like this, which leaves a lot of room for interpretation besides to what we're used from the comic books:
http://tintinesque.com/archives/therm_smaller.jpg

MrPositive
10-15-2007, 09:59 PM
Most people here are pretty familiar with the uncanny valley chart. Unless my eyes deceive me, that line goes back up on the right side before it gets to "healthy person".

I think we're on our way up the right side of that valley in that chart. Notice how steep it is on the right side of the "moving" dotted line! It may still take a while before we're into the "human likeness" category again.

I applaud those who even try to climb that steep valley wall. It can't be easy with so many people demanding they stop trying to climb it.

What have we got to lose by trying, besides those highly payed Hollywood actors?

I agree that everyone should try and overcome the uncanny valley conundrum (I am working with one of the lead researchers now). However, I don't agree that it should be trial and error periods on classic 2D/3D animation movies. This movie in my opinion would be much better served animated in the traditional sense than realism, which makes little sense to me. Personally, I still haven't seen straight motion capture on cartoony stylistic characters done that well (I mean does it even make sense to combine the two?). I guess you could say Happy Feet but in the end it was almost all fine tuned by hand. Regardless, I guess I'm just in the Pixar camp of going the traditional route for 3D cartoony movies. *shrug*

jludwick
10-15-2007, 10:13 PM
I love the ARTFORM of animation. That is, the definition set forth by animator Gene Deitch, "The recording of individually created phases of imagined action in such a way as to achieve the illusion of motion when shown at a constant, predetermined rate, exceeding that of human persistence of vision. (http://www.cartoonbrew.com/2005/01/page/2/ ... scroll down to "Deitch's definition"). This process is expensive, and though it's possible that it's too expensive (thus the creation of alternatives) Pixar will continue to make money doing it this way. Real animation.
Mo-cap is reminds me of synth keyboards trying to replace real musicians (late 70s?). Synth is just a Wal-mart symphony; it delivers the goods cheap while squeezing someone else dry and anyone who knows good aesthetics knows when to use a real instrument vs. a fake one which is why real musical instruments are still around! But I still own soundtracks created by keyboards.
The story and 3D will make Tin-Tin art, but the animation will just be some automated process tweaked by artists who know how it should look anyway... and it won't be a contribution to the animation artform.
(cut to the laughter of several Hollywood producers swimming in money)

bentllama
10-15-2007, 11:59 PM
Mo-cap is reminds me of synth keyboards trying to replace real musicians (late 70s?)...
...[mocap] will just be some automated process tweaked by artists who know how it should look anyway... and it won't be a contribution to the animation artform.

I could not have said it any clearer, but I wish I had.

kudos to all the hard working traditional animators out there...

Venkman
10-16-2007, 12:46 AM
You guys are no fun! ;)

At worst, we are going to get a crazy adventure movie.

DangerAhead
10-16-2007, 04:33 PM
you can still enjoy the artform of animation. No one is trying to replace it. There have never been more animated series on TV, more animated films in theatres, more web animations, or animated commercials than there is now. Animation is everywhere.

I work a Disney performance capture studio and we plan on having 40+ animators at peak production working on every single character and frame for over 2 years.

It's about trying to capture the essence of a performance, not replacing the animator.

this whole argument of animation vs. mocap is stupid.

As an animator in full awe of every frame produced by Tex Avery, Chuck Jones, Frank And Ollie, Ham Luske, Fred More, Bill Tytla, et al, mocap can never replace a great animated personality.


You can't capture any performance by any human that will ever remotely resemble Bugs Bunny. But Scrooge, on the other hand, a human in a human story.... maybe. We'll have to see.

Pedrotheartist
10-16-2007, 08:57 PM
I totally agree Geordie but unfortunately a lot of animators have a superiority complex when it come to motion capture :)



I can guarantee the next piece of mocap related news will produce the same hostile comments.

BillB
10-17-2007, 01:21 AM
This is funny, suspect Spielberg is getting ahead of himself :

Spielberg told the publication: "Herge's characters have been reborn as living beings ... far beyond anything we've seen to date with computer animated characters."

Jackson says. Its possible that the work, certainly on the first one, could well be starting this year,

If anyone could pull this off, it's those two! Fingers crossed...

Quatermass
10-17-2007, 04:15 AM
Firstly:
The point is, human motion on cartoon characters looks wrong, without even looking at the face. Monster House looked wrong, like big heads on people at a mardi gras. Tin Tin is not a realistically drawn comic, the characters do not have realistic proportions (although they appear to be at first glance). There is no point in going to the expense of making every pore on their body visible (as someone quoted Peter Jackson saying), since you've got all this great merchandising in place (i.e. all the pre-existing comic books and figurines and t-shirts etc), so why alienate the public from that.

Secondly:
Yes, there are many animated shoes on tv today, mostly 2d animated, so that argument is circuitous and whoever tries to make out that 2d won't fly better tell Pixar, because, as we all know, they have said that they will do a story in 2D if that makes sense.

Thirdly:
There was a live action film made of Tin Tin, and it lost all the quality of the comics, and I don't believe it was all that popular.

Fourthly:
Everyone I know dislikes Polar Express and Monster House because there's something funny about the characters, and I only two of these people are animators.

Fifthly:
There are hundreds of thousands of people registered on CGTalk, and that has to equate to a lot of movie dollars, so dismissing someones opinion because they belong to a minority group (in this case animators), is an invalid argument.

MrPositive
10-17-2007, 04:44 AM
I work a Disney performance capture studio and we plan on having 40+ animators at peak production working on every single character and frame for over 2 years.

It's about trying to capture the essence of a performance, not replacing the animator.

I completely disagree. I think it is definitely replacing animators as Ludwick so eloquently said earlier: it's diminishing the artform of true animation. It's like a watered down Mountain Dew.

this whole argument of animation vs. mocap is stupid.
I'm sorry but it's obviously not "stupid" for the lead animator of Halo 3, and an animator from cartoon network. People have put up very valid points of their dislikes of mocap being utilized in cartoony or stylistic movies. However, I find your comments the most biased considering your abundant use of mocap on this feature. I believe the movie studios are trying to cut costs and in doing so disregarding the eminent drop in quality animation IMO. Which is bad for the entire animation industry in my opinion. With comments like that, it makes me think you are trying to shoo arguments against mocap under a rug.

As an animator in full awe of every frame produced by Tex Avery, Chuck Jones, Frank And Ollie, Ham Luske, Fred More, Bill Tytla, et al, mocap can never replace a great animated personality. You can't capture any performance by any human that will ever remotely resemble Bugs Bunny. But Scrooge, on the other hand, a human in a human story.... maybe. We'll have to see.
My question to you is this, would you have rather seen Mr. Incredible and his family animated traditionally or with mocap ("humans in a human story"). If you say you like it as is, then I have to question your last comment. The only three cartoony animated human movies I can recall are The Incredibles, Monster House, and Polar Express. Would anybody in their right mind choose the mocap animation of Monster House and Polar Express over the hand animated Incredibles? Personally, I felt that Polar Express hurt the respect of animation in the entertainment medium. I'm am not all out cracking on motion capture. I know it has a time and place (live action films), but I'm not sure it's warranted in cartoony stylistic movies.

earlyworm
10-17-2007, 06:02 AM
Mo-cap is reminds me of synth keyboards trying to replace real musicians (late 70s?)... anyone who knows good aesthetics knows when to use a real instrument vs. a fake one which is why real musical instruments are still around!

Sorry to turn your analogy up on it's head, but wouldn't an animator be the one synthesizing a performance where mocap would be like recording a real instrument to a digital format?

The techniques and tools used to create a film are often nothing more than barely interesting by-products of what really counts - the final result.

I like and appreciate good animation, but I also see the allure that mocap presents to live-action directors who wish to maintain the actor-director relationship that exists on a live-action set, and yet create a film using a rather different paintbrush.

The technique may have not been entirely successful in the past, however that doesn't mean it can't be used successfully in the future.

Devvv
10-17-2007, 06:30 AM
Tin-tin?!? What the heck! What about Jurassic Park 4?! :(

MrPositive
10-17-2007, 06:49 AM
I like and appreciate good animation, but I also see the allure that mocap presents to live-action directors who wish to maintain the actor-director relationship that exists on a live-action set, and yet create a film using a rather different paintbrush.

The technique may have not been entirely successful in the past, however that doesn't mean it can't be used successfully in the future.

Why are you using live action as an example? I understand that Gollum needs a realistic sense of movement to keep the audience fixated in his believability. But we are talking about Tin Tin, one of my favorite cartoons of all time, that is no doubt stylistic and deserving of traditional animation. Truthfully, I cannot even see how this can be debated. I can understand "Jackson not wanting to change his style". But sometimes you have to right? Shouldn't the goal be to represent the cartoon in as respectable and accurate a light as possible?
http://www.michaelspornanimation.com/splog/wp-content/e/tintin.jpg

Ismail
10-17-2007, 07:12 AM
Mocap productions don't come cheap. Polar Express cost well over 100 million dollars (165 million production budget http://the-numbers.com/movies/2004/POLAR.php). Same with Monster House. (Monster House 75 million for the production budget. I don't know how much they spent on prints and advertising, I can only speculate on that one)

My personal issue with some mocap films is when subtle nuances that create the illusion of life are overlooked. For instance, for all the subtle shaking that goes on in a characters' movements on mocapped animation, when the camera focus goes to the eyes, the skin around the eyes does not move at all. The nostrils don't flare when the character breathes or gets angry and twitches.
As observed in life eyes are constantly focusing on something and therefore moving yet from all the mocap movies I've observed, "MOnster House, Polar Express, Beowulf (trailers for Beowulf) those micro eye movements are practically ignored. Yet watching a movie like Toy Story, Monster's Inc. King Kong, Surf's Up, Stuart Little. Look at the eyes of Buzz, Stuart, Mike and Sully, Kong, Big Z, they have micro movements, showing that the characters are thinking and focusing. Stuart Little, Ratatouille. Look at those noses!:) Imagine a rat or mouse sniffing without nostrils flaring!

And another thing with the mocap movies I've observed is how constrained the characters are in movement. They look like people with restricted movements. Their movements do not complement the space that they occupy. By this I mean, when a character appears on screen in a large envirionment, why do they move like they are confined to a limited space? Answer, because the actors are confined to a limited space. A mocap stage!

There's more than one example of mocap being utilized well in a film, for now I'll mention one example "Pirates of the Carribean" worked well in my opinion because the actors interacted with the environment that their CG counterparts would appear in. (Davey Jones and his Crew) Yet when I observed the behind the scenes for a movie like "Monster House," the movements of the actors did not complement the vast environments the CG counterparts would appear in.

When it comes to motion capture, you still need a great actor and great set organization aswell as animators to pull it off well. If Motion Capture is speculated by some as a way of easing animators out of the process of animating and cutting costs..I honestly don't understand why the productions still cost the same and sometimes more.

My two cents. I'm looking forward to seeing a great story complemented by great visuals. May TinTin be one of those.

bentllama
10-17-2007, 07:48 AM
Tin Tin, one of my favorite cartoons of all time, that is no doubt stylistic and deserving of traditional animation.

Hey now. Give live action cartoon adaptations a chance! I mean just look at this shining gem!

http://www.topthat.net/webrock/images/movie2.jpg

Need I say more? LOL

bentllama
10-17-2007, 07:57 AM
there is a time and place for mocap. the nostalgia and expectations surrounding a Tin Tin feature throw the IP into a 'oh I wish Brad Bird was doing this! that would be awesome' type of mentality, at least for me.

the highly stylized Tin Tin is the last property you would expect as 'performance capture'...I think the nostalgia surrounding Tin Tin and his universe/style is the crux of the malcontent when Tin Tin is juxtaposed to performance capture.

at Bungie we have had a good relationship with Weta for a little while now, and are working with Peter and his team in tandem on a project. i have blind faith in his team's ability to produce good work, I have seen some of that work first hand.

however, the mere mention of 'performance capture' on a property that oozes a unique, non-realistic style kind of irks me.

I look forward in seeing what PJ and Steven come up with, even if I am somewhat jaded towards 'performance capture'...it will be an interesting experiment nonetheless.

earlyworm
10-17-2007, 10:09 AM
Why are you using live action as an example? I understand that Gollum needs a realistic sense of movement to keep the audience fixated in his believability.


My 'live-action' point was nothing to do with the type of movement you get from mocap. What I was getting at was that although they are similar, there is a different type of interaction that occurs between an animator-director and an actor-director, and that mocap provides an actor-director relationship very much like directing a live-action film. Now that isn't to say that that type of relationship is better at achieving an amazing performance or telling a good story - only that it's a different way of achieving an amazing performance or telling a good story.


But we are talking about Tin Tin, one of my favorite cartoons of all time, that is no doubt stylistic and deserving of traditional animation. Truthfully, I cannot even see how this can be debated.


I wasn't putting forward an argument either for or against doing this particular film utilizing mocap based performances, I'm more interested in the final result then debating should it be drawn, filmed or mocap'd. My comments were more philosophically in nature than anything else.

Quatermass
10-17-2007, 11:38 PM
Okay, what I'm getting from this discussion is that there's going to have to be a humungous amount of effort involved in getting the the personalised/characterised motion out of motion capture/performance capture data so that it has the same warm feeling that a film like Ratatouille acheived via hand animation. Seems like a lot of work to get to a place that you could get to via a shorter route.

bentllama
10-18-2007, 12:06 AM
Okay, what I'm getting from this discussion is that there's going to have to be a humungous amount of effort involved in getting the the personalised/characterised motion out of motion capture/performance capture data so that it has the same warm feeling that a film like Ratatouille acheived via hand animation. Seems like a lot of work to get to a place that you could get to via a shorter route.

i had a dog, and BINGO was his name-o.

Gentle Fury
10-25-2007, 11:30 PM
Now if they could only invent a moving picture device we could point at these performance capture players as they emote. That would cut out the whole time-wasting technical stuff in the middle and let you get right to the performance! Hey, I can dream, can't I?

I think someone needed to tell that to the Beowulf people.......Who's bright idea was it to make zombie looking CG characters that are modelled directly off of their hollywood counterparts??? Its like a really high end Tomb Raider.

LAME!

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