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dickma
10-07-2007, 08:01 PM
http://zea.yoopix.org/1191782572/93129130/21/capture.jpg


UPDATED Youtube Link (same animation as deleted before)

http://www.youtube.com/v/Upx7p2gzQoI (http://www.youtube.com/v/Upx7p2gzQoI)

At the end, I have the animation finished.


Opening: Lightwave 3D, After Effects

Character Animation: Softimage|XSI, Lightwave 3D, Zbrush



Actually what I do is an animation clip that demonstrated all technical skills in animation, especially the hair and animation setup and it will be a part of my demo reel. However, for some reasons, I have to do it more look like a “fan” gift, for the people who love Hugh Laurie and House.



C&C are welcome.

jason108
10-07-2007, 09:30 PM
get the book stop starring. then you'll know whats wrong with it right away.

SBadea
10-07-2007, 10:24 PM
This is just animationwise:
... before you buy something, try to figure out what is wrong by yourself!
Look at yourself! Look at your eyes, at the way you blink, or the way other people do such things... and... there's no shame in using a reference for training!
If you don't get any new conclusions and knowledge in a week... buy the book.

webhead
10-07-2007, 10:46 PM
Very good likeness on the House model, but the animation does need work. First off, he appears to be blind. His eyes don't blink or seem to register on anything, just kind of circle all over the place. His body movements seem floaty and not very natural. Have you studied the facial and body movements the actor is making in the clip you got the audio from? That might be a good start to get a more natural/believable performance from your House model. Try acting it out yourself in front of a mirror, or film yourself doing the dialogue and study it. I hope that is helpful.

Steelhelmet
10-07-2007, 11:31 PM
Over all I like it. He looks like he got problems with orientation. He makes movements without purpose or motivation (eyes, torso, head). I don't know the show thoe. maybe it is done in purpose? The part where he puts his walkingstick (stick?) on his ankle is not pleasent timed. When he talks sarcastic or aggressive don't let him blink. Blinkin' weakens the character. Let him blink if he has not blinked for some time so he doesn't look dead. Let him close the eyes when he gets a new idea or new thought. Let him close eyes when he changes the fix over a bigger distance. Open them again when he almost reached position and so on... You can move the head to accentuate the speech, that would give it a purpose to move it. Just don't move anything without reason.

This is just reflecting my opinion. I often hear I should move my character at all times (just slightly) to make it look alive. I don't see that.

I think I am going to watch the show someday. Your animation made me curious. Maybe Im wrong at all and he IS like that. Then I apologize in advance. However this is just my opinion, and others disagree with what I wrote... You will find out soon

Thanks for that entertaining animation

-Simon

dickma
10-08-2007, 05:31 AM
OK, here I voice up here.

To: Jason 108 & SBadea,
I think those guys comments are attacks and I don't wanna spend time to do the explaination here.

My animation has a section in the WIP section at CGTalk, and this is where my animation came from. Why your guys don't spend time on giving something constructive, or point the mistakes directly in the WIP and wait the chance to do the attack here?

To: Webhead and Steelhelmet.

These two comments are two controversial one and I would like to spend time here.

First of all, I turned the voice track to be a monologue, But the current situation is about Dr House is talking to a group of people (If you are interested search the scene related in Youtube). So he has no specific target to starring at, and I avoid him to starring directly to the Camera (I only let him do that for about 1 sec). So he is not "blind" or not "blinking" because I think in the actual real acting, actors don't stare to the camera all times.

I think Steelhelmet has the right implementation.
He looks like he got problems with orientation. He makes movements without purpose or motivation (eyes, torso, head). I don't know the show thoe. maybe it is done in purpose?

About animation, well, actually this is my FIRST time to do animation in a new package and I am not a formal animator that receive training in school. It is not an excuse but for a guy who do All tasks to do the animation, I think I do a good job (I can mimic this by invite an animator to do the animation for me, but I didn't)

Although I don't have a formal training in animation, but I don't think I have to apply all the principles of the animation into this one. Because he is not a toony design. I know my task is about to translated him from real to 3D. (And animation I think it is a skill that cannot just grab a book and study, mentoring is more important but I seldomly receive comments in the WIP section)

My strongest part is to do character modeling, texturing and some specific setups like the hair. Especially for the hair setup, at least myself I never see a lot of animation that feature a guy with skinny beard and moustache with real hair setup, and able to sync with the facial expression. (OK, they can do it by texturing on the face layer, or change the design to long beard to mimic the sync)and I did it.

Last thing I would like to say, Steelhelmet mentioned about I have a wrong timing about to put his cane to the ankle(should be elbow, right?). Here I would like to say,THERE IS NO THIS ACTION in the original screenplay, I challenged myself to add the additional action to the original. Just I would like to add personality to the character and bring some entertainment to the audience, rather to show him just standing here and talk.

uiron
10-08-2007, 10:18 AM
guys above do not have intention to attack you, this was quite constructive critic and you should appreciate the time they spended to write it to you.

yes, model, shading is very well done, but animation is poor, it's just floaty actions with no real purpose. no poses, facial sync is almost non-existant, timing way too slow (e.g., taking a pill) and not accented.

as you say, this is your first time animating, so accept critic, find some learning material (i'd recommend Osipa's book "stop staring" as others suggested, as well as "animator's survival kit" for basics), and get to work:]

dickma
10-08-2007, 11:13 AM
OK, I mislead some meanings about the book mentioned "stop staring". "stop staring" is a book I never heard before. I apologize here if I offended someone.

However, do I really make a serious mistake about everything? The comments from the above guys really thinks me that I am a newbie, and the animation seems that it is not worth to take a look.

The real fact is I have my progress when doing the animation. I have think about the facial expressions, like the facial asymmetries, lip sync and different parts of facial movement and studying faces and everything like poses. I have make corrections to improve myself, somebody know that.

Or think about a situation, if you do a critique about my monologue performance, How do you implement that if you do the animation? I do really think about acting.

First of all, I turned the voice track to be a monologue, But the current situation is about Dr House is talking to a group of people (If you are interested search the scene related in Youtube). So he has no specific target to starring at, and I avoid him to starring directly to the Camera (I only let him do that for about 1 sec). So he is not "blind" or not "blinking" because I think in the actual real acting, actors don't stare to the camera all times.

The reason about why I feel frustruated is about that I pay effort to do the animation. And what I received is about "Grab a book" and do a study. It feels like they failed the student in the exam but they never show the student the answer.

I believe I am not doing something crap...

dickma
10-08-2007, 11:30 AM
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0471789208/ref=sib_dp_pt/103-5512761-0465468#reader-link

This is the book they mentioned, and at the left hand side cover you see some facial expressions about a photorealistic man. What do you think if I portrait Dr House acting with those expressions. It is just inappropriate I think because the script doesn't have those exaggerated acting like shout, yells etc.

I think the principles of animation are important, just everycase is different.

uiron
10-08-2007, 01:23 PM
look, if you posted Dr. House in 3d stills forum, comments would be different - the model is GREAT. but this is animation forum, and people judge animation, which is here very basic and weak at the moment.

Osipa in his book covers a lot of things about facial animation - from building topology, setuping controls for it, and finishing with WHAT and WHEN and HOW moves on the face.it's not a complete resource for facial animation, but has a lot of basics and guidelines for a guy who's just starting with facial animation. i've yet to find a better resource to start with.

uiron
10-08-2007, 01:29 PM
because the script doesn't have those exaggerated acting like shout, yells etc.
..this is very untrue, the script has quite a lot of accents that can be followed by guestures. "...i'm one of THREE doctors...", "i am a BORED...", "..but NOT to worry..", ..you may seem to reach for THIS", and these were just a few examples.

Bluder
10-08-2007, 04:10 PM
u seem to get very defensive when getting critic. they are not attacking u they are trying to help u.
what they say is true, the eyes must focus on something. the eye motion is more rapid and get stuck on different places, right now there is allmost no "eye darts" so he dose look blind.
the movement of the the eyes expresses things like emotions and thinking progress try make the eye darts express something.
the eyes are the most important thing when u bring life to the charcter right now he seem lifeless because the eyes dosen't express anything.
the body movement are flooty and slow and u need to think more about strong poses.

i know u didn't get the response u expected and its hard in the beginning to see flaws but believe me if u continue to practice and look at this in 2 mounts time u'll be shaking your head thinking "i can't believe i didn't see that".

good luck!

dickma
10-08-2007, 04:13 PM
What I do is just express my feel.

What do you prefer to see, if I just do a presentation reel and just to present my good modeling, texturing by doing a whole rotation of the models, no movements or the animation reel that I make him move and act.

That is why I feel frustrated, I choose the latter one to work on, and I seems that I do an extra work on animating and times for rendering. However the feedback is about "oh he is dead, his eyes are blind, And everyone seems thinking about I didn't do a hard job to do the animation, just make him move and hit render.

What I do is trying to bring entertainment and in the other hand, I would like to prove that, my model is able to animate, but the technical skills on the animation is an other thing.

And about the exaggerating of the facial expression, I didn't say I didn't concentrate on that. I have spot on some words that you mention. About the result, it is good or bad is the another thing.

Or may be I should talk about more about the animation.

For the facial expression, I did the morphing by seperate parts, like the tongue, teeth and lips, cheeks, jaw, eyes and eyebrows. (so it is not just the mouth movements). I didn't do anything lazy about the facial expression and I have a good topology on the face. In conclusion I think my problem is about I didn't do too much exaggerated on the facial expression.

I am not making an excuse about my animation techniques. but I agree somebody in the other forum say that even the animation masters or with a powerful high-end tools, there's still a distance to achieve realism in animating, and usually those projects are looking dead.
However in my mind is it a good reasons about not doing the challenge? Or I already to expect I will receive the bad comments. or I shouldn't set the goal too high and unrealistic and I expect people will be understand that (but it seems that it is not). I have to realize that my goal is just to present that he is good in modeling and texturing quality, and animation really is another thing, but my job is about he is able to animate.

That is all I would like to talk about.

Bluder
10-09-2007, 09:17 AM
look here, like uiron said this is the animation section and we will give critic on animation, u can't expect ppl to only give good critic, if u post something u will hear what they think especially if u say "C&C are welcome".

ofc we know u worked hard, who dosen't?
would u rather have us saying that everything is great when we dosen't think that just because we know you worked hard? the point of c&c is to get feedback and eventually get better.

dickma
10-09-2007, 09:26 AM
Bluder,

I am trying to change my attitude here. I hope you can understand.

However in my mind is it a good reasons about not doing the challenge? Or I already to expect I will receive the bad comments. or I shouldn't set the goal too high and unrealistic and I expect people will be understand that (but it seems that it is not). I have to realize that my goal is just to present that he is good in modeling and texturing quality, and animation really is another thing, but my job is about he is able to animate.

For the whole animation production I have moments that something doesn't feel satisfied for me. Like the beginning sequence (about 200 frames) I make changes for three times, that means I have to dump all the rendering sequences and do corrections. Nobody told me and this is only my "self-alert" to do the correction. like the lip-sync "that's true isn't it, but not to worry" I 've done the strengthen and exaggerated job when saying "true". Of course, it is another redo process because I was unsatisfied and once I do the correction, still somebody still say I didn't exagerrated it and I just don't know "what's wrong?"

I really feel hesitation once the animation was released. I thought it shouldn't be that bad but I just thought "do I really doing crap?" Even now I am still considering to make changes after hearing your guys comments. However, my hesitation is still exist and I just need time to recover. (think about I can make changes, however, after waiting for a long time and hit render the result may not be good). Of course in my POV I will think "oh, that will be very good if an expert really mentoring me."

I wanna be straight forward and still C&C are still welcome, just I feel interaction is important.

SBadea
10-09-2007, 10:40 AM
First of all, I really did not intend to attack you in a certain way!
And for the constructive critics and advises, there they are:


Look at yourself! Look at your eyes, at the way you blink, or the way other people do such things... and... there's no shame in using a reference for training!






Every artist, who's dealing with reproducition of nature has to have an open eye and LOOK around! You know that from drawing, modeling, texturing, shading, even rigging, and it is the same for motion!
Motion is difficult, because EVERYBODY is an expert in watching humans move, because we see them all day! That's why toony-animation is so much easyer (but needs a excellent feeling for timing), because you can't compare it with reality!

You set up a high goal for your first animation, and I appreciate that! BUT it might be a bit too high for you yet. Ofc you did a good job on the model, texturing, hair and all the stuff. It looks good, and you're challenging reality. BUT the more realistic a character looks, the higher the level of animation has to be, so it doesn't look odd! This sentece gives you two things in one for your piece. One is a compliment, one is a critic.
For getting better animationwise, all you need is looking and understanding.

And to get a good reference to look at should be easy for you, since you have already a certain scene from House and can repeatedly look at it, pause it, and even go through it frame by frame, to exactly look at what he does.
If you have to change the scene, because he originally is speaking to a bunch of people, you can use other scenes of Dr. House or yourself as reference. Film yourself (or a friend) or put yourself in in front of a mirror and look! Examine! Study the motion and what you do why.
And yes, as you already said, a book is not the ultimate solution, since animation is "understanding motion". You can't learn that form a book. The book gives you just the direction to go. But you have to understand it by yourself. It's like doing math. You can't just learn math. You have to understand why you come to the exact solution! The book gives you just the path to go. Without understanding, your head is just filled with information... not with reasoning and conclusions.

So, here the principles you will have to look at for realistic animation.

1. Everything is moving in arcs (not just on one axis), even if they are very small, nature movement is always arc-like!
2. Animation is exaggeration!
3. Animation is overlaping movement!
4. Behind every movement is a reason! And since you have a human to animate, this reason is thinking!

So, please stop whining about that we do not give you compliments for your animation!
It's your FIRST piece of human animation and you posted it in the FINISHED ANIMATION forum! What did you expect? A homerun? A whole in one?
Not without practice! WE ALL have been through this! We all got our blows.
And only a small number of lucky ones have a mentor. Most of us tought themselfes and experienced on their own, read books, watched movements over and over again, trained movements by ourselfes, looked in mirrors for hours, watched others, got our own actors, our own psychologists, our own phoneticians... so, as you see, we are not just moving things, when we do animation.
The mentor, the book... they can help you and show you ways... but you have to walk those on your own.
Get over it and improve what you want to improve!

Chin up!
Man is a pupil, pain is his teacher.
Sebastian

dickma
10-09-2007, 10:59 AM
Thank you SBadea, Once again I would like to apologize here for my words.

May be I need more chance and opportunity to practice...

SBadea
10-09-2007, 11:05 AM
Yes, no problem for me.
Now recover... We all did that, too. :)

You have all the chances you give to yourself.
Sebastian

PostProductionGuy
10-09-2007, 02:10 PM
The movements could be better but in general it was cool!

dickma
10-12-2007, 11:30 AM
Hi all,

During the days seeking feedbacks from forums, the general comments are about to work harder on the animation skills.

I would like to rework on the whole animation, because I really don't wanna disappointing people...and somebody mentioned it, it should work better for job hunt.

I just have an idea to create a closed group, seeking advice from the animators, to spot on the problems of the animation on time based or even frame based. I contacted some people here by personal messages and see how we can run the group.

if you are interested, just contact me via private message.

PS. Because I would like to rework on the animation, so the links from Youtube and Rapidshare will be removed.

Steelhelmet
10-12-2007, 01:09 PM
Oooooh. :sad: Why don't you leave the link for comparison. I think the progress is also interesting. Or at least you could upload both versions when you are done. That would be really nice to see.

Thx

dickma
10-12-2007, 01:34 PM
I just make the decision today (sorry, another mistake to remove the animation) And This is the finished work gallery may be posting WIP is inappropriate.

Mmm.. But as from you and other people's request (Spinquad) and for people to give suggestion during the rework process, I uploaded to Youtube again, (but I just upload it, it takes time to process.)

http://www.youtube.com/v/Upx7p2gzQoI
Rework takes time and I hope you can wait for that.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

dickma
10-12-2007, 08:09 PM
I know what's wrong about me, what's wrong about the animation...

You CANNOT just translate the ACTING from ANY MEDIA to ANIMATION DIRECTLY.

http://www.spinquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20093

this is where I came up this conclusion(that is what I wrote to a friend in E-mail).


It is about the animators actually wants me to execute the animation
with animation principles, because i was heavily influenced by the TV
shows, that what they do is so normal in the reality, but in the
animation world, it will not success if I just translate them
directly. The animation will become not so interesting, robotic and
slow. Currently this leads to a problem about how I perform as an
animator:

imagine:
Dick Ma as Dr Gregory House?
Hugh Laurie as Dr Gregory House? or
Dr Gregory House as Dr Gregory House (he is just a made-up)?

My past experience proves me that just translate the animation from
TV, just it will not be successful. Once I saw someone resembled
Marilyn Monroe and performs "Gentlemen Prefer Blondes" in 3D. and I'd
already see something strange, her eyes didn't blink for over 1 1/2
minute. I ask the creator and he answered me that he works base on
the movie. And another bad example is about the FF Spirit Within you
mentioned, that using motion capture instead of keyframing.

(I forgot to mentioned, my friend likes FF Spirit Within)




This is the end of Day 1 about reworking on the animation, any thoughts?

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