WIP: Neanderthal Caveman

[zkanal]

Front and side wireframe coming up !

[zkanal]

,

[sforsyth]

It's a decent start. Looking a little more monkey than neanderthal though... not sure why. Might be the large ears. Have you tried making them smaller just to see?

[zkanal]

Ears made smaller ,what do you reckon?

Btw,the cranial structure of a monkey and a neanderthal is not that huge difference.
But I agree ,he looks better now I think.

[sforsyth]

Yeah, I think it's a little better too. I think you're right, not sure what the differences are between monkeys and neanderthals specifically. Have you gotten any reference material for it? I mean, I know you're going for a cartoony look, but still... it'd give you an idea of parts to exaggerate.

[zkanal]

Yeah ,ofcourse I've got reference material , I've been looking att the craniums of neanderthals.
This is the product of it ,I'm sure it will look right with the textures and body to fit.
The eyebrow part is probably what's mainly giving it a monkey look ,but I'm gonna keep it nonetheless I think.

If you look at the side and front angle it doesn't look like a monkey.

Thanks for the c & c anyway :) we'll see how it turns out.

[EVIL]

could you post a wireframe image form the low poly model? instead of the meshsmoothed model.

[zkanal]

Sure thing .. why ? :P

[zkanal]

Here comes the sideview
Sorry for the hard compression ,but the forum doesn't allow me to post images larger than 10k in size :/

[EVIL]

I learn from other peoples basic meshes and your's is very clean and almost all quads, nice job!

[zkanal]

Thanks ,I've really been trying to get it all quads.

The only tri I know of is on the ear ,I would be happy if you could find some that I've missed.

:wip:

[zkanal]

Started working on the body .. I know a lot that's wrong with
it ,but I'm only starting ,some C & C wouldn't hurt anyway :)

This is how far I got today.

[zkanal]

Kept on working on the body .. only upper body worked on so far.

[E.Z. Schwartz]

Pretty cool. I think his nose is helping to make him look more like a monkey. I'd give him a more human nose. His body is looking good so far, but it might be getting too muscular. I don't think neanderthals worked out. Even though they were active in looking for food and hunting, they wouldn't be so defined like that.

[zkanal]

Hehe ,thanks powdered-toast-man ! :)

I have looked at a lot of references ,and neanderthals seemed to have an ape like nose .. however ,I will change it when I see it all together if it looks wrong.

Reguarding the body ,heh I agree ,I don't think neanderthals worked out ,but since I'm going for caricature like features ,I will try it anyway. I'm sure a lot of this will change as the work progresses. Thanks for your valuable input though :P

I have already made the chest muscles smaller.
I'll post an update soon.

[DrakeX]

hehe i saw powdered toast man once :) thought that's who your avatar was.

yeah, if you look at, like, aboriginies in nat'l geog or whatever, they've got muscles, but they're more lean than anything. they don't have the muscles of a bodybuilder, let's put it that way :) but they do have definition.

[zkanal]

Yep I know .. but I couldn't find good reference images of that kind of male bodies. So I think I'll work a good model out of this ,and then if possible change it to a leaner body type.
My primary target is getting the muscles somewhat right.

[zkanal]

Well .. I worked and worked and worked .

Now .. tadaaa ,a leaner version. Partly courtesy of Artisan :P

here comes the front.

[zkanal]

And the new leaner back.

Watch out girls ,this dude is gonna be hot! :hmm:

[zkanal]

Update body.

[Man]

it's going very well,but i think he has too many muscles.....i don't think neanderthals would have a perfect shaped abdomen...maybe his legs and arms would have some muscles
that's it

[zkanal]

Tried slimming him down even more...

This actually looks ok ,the front part ,but not the back ..
So imagine this front ,and the other back.

[dbach]

I don't have any reference, so what I say could be way off but the thing I notice is the chin, it is very pronounced if you bring it back a bit that will make the whole mouth area stick out more making him look a bit more ape like. Again I could be way off.

Hope this helps.

Out,
Don

[zkanal]

Maybe I misunderstood you,

But I dont want it to be more ape-like .. it should be somewhere between man and ape :)

Thanks anyway ..

[dbach]

Here is an example of what I was talking about. However during my google search I came across two designs one like in my example and the other you are using. In order to avoid artistic interpritation (my example) I also found some pictures of Neanderthal skulls with the same differing builds.


I guess I was way off, well sorta. :D


Out,
Don

[zkanal]

Cool! nice inspiration :)

We'll see what will happen .. hehe
As you say it's a lot about artistic interpretation.

Thanks Don !

[Gompachi]

its a good start, the orbital ridge looks good. I would recomend looking at the skull of a neanderthal. The size of their nose was huge in comparison to modern humans, which is evident when you look at their skulls. The lived during the last Ice age and the main purpose of a nose is to heat and humidify air. Since they lived in a cold climate, the needed the function of a large nose. The protuding of the maxcilla forward looks good, but I would watch out about having a chin that proturdes to far forward. Neanderthal didn't have much of a mental protuberence (the point at the front of a human chin). Humans by nature have a much more pronounced mental protuberence, thus we have simi to rather pointy chins. Their faces where also longer and more square than most humans. Also, you may want to change the back of the skull, because Neanderthal has an interesting feature, that we humans don't have. Its called an "occipital bun", we just have a human occipital bone. The occipital bone is the bone in the back of the skull, just above the atlas(vertebrae below the skull). Theirs was square, like a shelf. Ours is more flat and round. As far as I can remember from physical anthropology class, they really didn'y have much of a neck and where pretty robust. These guys hunted huge game. Can you imagine wrestling and hunting down deer that stand 10 feet tall. What comes to mind when you look at the skeleton of these guys, is how much they look like football players. They where really strong, acording to some studies on muscle mass and bone structure. I think that you could infuse some of these unique qualities into your character, that whould really make him a character. Neaderthal were a unique species and contrary to what a lot of popular magazines and tv shows want to convey them, looked different from us. Its not a huge difference, but there is a diff. Research is a valuable tool. Hope this is helpful.

[zkanal]

Thanks a LOT gompachi !! :)

This is really cool :)

I'll see what I'll be able to incorporate of those features .. it certainly would be cool !!

However I'm not going for 100% realism,more half toon.

[Gompachi]

wow that was quick,
yeah stylized is always good, but sometimes we need insperation from reality. I respect artistic license. no one really knows for sure how they really looked, no soft tissues survived, just bones. But the physiology of their bones can tell a lot about them. I'd personally make him short and stout. They where very strong, like I said and probaly not very lean. After all they lived in cold places. Short, robuts bodys are known to fare well in the cold. think vikings. And the game they hunted where huge, like I said. Bears where also something they hunted, big bears. An interesting fact is that Neanderthals share a lot in common with the type of bone brakes and fractures that rodeo riders have nowadays. Neaderthal skeletons almost always show signs of damage and ware. They where a rough bunch. Too bad their time ran out... Good luck:thumbsup:

[Gompachi]

oh yeah and one more thing, their arms arn't as long as ours, relative to our body size. As the story goes the species they came from left the trees before the ones we come from. Longer arms are more common in species that swing around in trees. but then again some would argue that we come from the same family. Who knows... just conjecture... later

[zkanal]

Of course reality is a very good guideline :)

I actually looked att att cranium of a neanderthal when building the face ,but I missed the nose width.

For the body I'm just going after human anatomi first ,and then maybe later I can adjust it to more neanderthal like qualities. I just want to get the edgeloops ,and anatomy somewhat correct before going too much caricature.

Thanks alot for your c & c :)

[zkanal]

Gompachi ,very nice info ,hehe ,will see what I can technically incorporate without loosing the ability to animate and deform it well.

This model is meant to be animated too :)

[zkanal]

Also ,if you're still there ,do you know the width -height ratio of the body?

For example humans are rougly the same width fingertip to fingertip ,as they are in height head to toe.

Are they much different I wonder..

[Gompachi]

not really sure... hold on....

Taken from sciencenet website:
Biologically the Neanderthals are characterised by a number of features of their skulls and their post-cranial skeletons. The size of their brains equalled or exceeded that of living populations (around 1400 to 1500 cc). The face was generally much lower and longer than ours, with extreme anterior projection (prognathism). The orbits of the eyes and cheek bones retreated markedly. The effect is to make the face look as though the nasal region had been pulled forward, with the cheekbones sweeping back from the nose, creating a pinched look to the mid-face. They had very powerful neck muscles, leading to the formation of a dense bar of bone, called the occipital torus, with a pronounced depression located just above this, the suprainiac fossa. The back of their skull is ballooned into a noticeable bun-shape, termed a chignon. Neanderthals also had a pronounced series of bony crests on their mastoid process, located just behind their ears. Modern humans do not possess these features. The front teeth may have been actively used as a vice or clamp, in what are termed 'paramasticatory activities', such as softening furs or stripping branches with the front teeth. Postcranially the Neanderthals were very robust, suggesting extraordinary physical strength and great endurance. The distal limb segments (lower legs and arms) were usually short and markedly curved, most likely as an adaptation to cold environments.

Taken from British Archaeology:
In terms of body proportions he is `hyper-arctic' - his limbs are relatively short compared to his abdomen, and his tibia is relatively short in relation to his femur. These proportions reflect an adaptation to cold, dry environments that is characteristic of European Neanderthals and is distinct from the subtropical body proportions of our own species.

and from another website:
Neanderthals were a bit shorter than most modern human populations who inhabit their former range; about 5ft 7inches for males. They were very stocky and heavily built, with short but very thick legs and arm bones. Their limb proportions were quite different from modern humans: the forearm and the leg below the knee was proportionally much shorter than in any modern human populations.

The size of the 'muscle scars' (areas where muscles were attached to the bones) show that Neanderthals were extremely muscular and thus presumably very strong. An average Neanderthal male would have had about the same muscle and limb bone thickness as the most heavily built heavyweight boxers existing today. Neanderthal women were less heavily built than their men, but still far more heavily built and more muscular than most modern human males! Even Neanderthal children were very muscular by time they were a few years old.


hope this helps...sorry I'm tired had school all day and its 5 am PST. If I have time I look for more info... later

[zkanal]

You are the man ! supercool !

[Grub]

I read something somewhere that neanderthals had shoulder bones that were shaped different to ours.:thumbsup:

[zkanal]

Allrite ,time for an update!! :)

Stumped him together and put nice big feet on him .

Here comes the front..

[zkanal]

And the back ..

[zkanal]

New update .. total assembly .

Front first.

[zkanal]

And the back...

[E.Z. Schwartz]

It's a good model, but it doesn't look like a person. It looks like a monkey more I think, probably mostly because of his face. The nose and the space above the lip make it look like a monkey to me. Why the fewer fingers and toes than he should have? That looks sort of funny to me too.

[zkanal]

Thanks ,I've been working hard on the model ,still some edges to fix ,but all in all I'm pretty satisfied.

The face will be worked on some more ,it's still not 100% ,and I will try different nose designs :)
Maybe the long jaw looks too big because of the small nose??
Because I tried to follow the pics Gompachi sent me with the cranium of a neanderthal.

The reason for the four toes and fingers is that it should be a half-toon ,not 100% realistic and not 100% toon.

Thanks again for all the wonderful c & c .

Here comes an early render.

[CGmonkey]

Really awesome mate :thumbsup:

[DrakeX]

i don't think he looks like a monkey, but that might be because i kow someone who looks like him :D

[LORDISH]

Looks sweet dude. I like the style, not too realistic. Nice job. :)

[zkanal]

Thanks a lot for the kind words everyone ,it makes me feel more motivated to actually finish this guy.

The major plan (in a perfect world) is to make blendshapes ,weighting ,texturing ,and put him in our world by using 3d tracking.

:cool:

I will work on this guy really hard tomorrow ,and hopefully post some updates too ..

[XAQT]

Maybe his skull is a bit to round. In my head they are more squarelike. Do not know if this is correct tho ;) Just a thought. Good looking model Zkanal

[zkanal]

Yes supposedly their heads were more square'ish .. and I can tell you it's all just personal preference from my part ,I like the round head :P

However I regret the title of this post ,it shouldn't really read neanderthal ,more like caveman guy or something. I'm not going for 100% historically correct ,but more making a good model that has some appeal.

Thanks for the c & c

[zkanal]

If there was someone looking forward to an update ,I must regrettibly say I didn't get any time to work on this today.

I will as soon as I can.

[ThreeDFineArtist]

Hey I like your cave man model, and I was wondering if you have put him up for sale on any sites anywhere. If so, how much?

[zkanal]

Thanks for a comment on such an old post.
The caveman had to go to sleep for a while since I got my new job, and he is currently not for sale.

[ThreeDFineArtist]

your welcome, and good luck on your work.

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