3dsmax 6?

[BrandonD]

I would think not. A rewrite of an app like MAX takes roughly 3 years, so I'd speculate they would have had to have started a while ago. While MAX is showing it's age (development started in 1993) it's still got some life in it. There was an interview with one of the execs at Discreet who mentioned the development cycle of MAX would accellerate though. In the past it's been 18 months between major releases. Still, NAB and SIGGRAPH are the two events where major issues like this are announced - stay tuned ;)

[treed]

Yeah, it would be awesome if discreet integrated several things like hair, caustics, and better particles.

treed

[BrandonD]

Originally posted by treed
Yeah, it would be awesome if discreet integrated several things like hair, caustics, and better particles.

treed

It's funny, I've only seen caustics used once in production. Hair makes sense, but it's still specialized right? I mean, if I'm doing predominantly effects animation, I'm not going to have the same needs as a character guy. That's why the plugin model is nice. If you're hardcore into characters there's CStudio, ACT, Stitch, Shag, Shave 'n Haircut, etc. For effects guys there's Thinking Particles, Afterburn, etc.

[jeb]

Originally posted by BrandonD
It's funny, I've only seen caustics used once in production.

yeah the only time i saw caustics was in final fantasy the spirit within. it was a glass with whisky

[BrandonD]

And that may not have been caustics. More often than not it's just faked with maps and/or lights.

[Dave Black]

Ok, the rumors surrounding max 6 being a total rewrite stem from the fact that a new code base is being laid down. Plugins for 4 and 5 won't work with 6...so in a sense, it's being rewriten, but really it's just being upgraded.

Look for some really neat new features, but Discreet is saying that stability superscedes all other developments.

That's straight from the horses mouth.

-3DZ

:D

[holosynthetic]

I figured you'd jump on that before i got a chance :)

[Mahlon]

Does NAB start on Monday? I'm tuned.

Mahlon

[tauf]

It's possible that discreet may take this opportunity of upgrading the old 2.5 codebase to also port or make a native linux version of max. Discreet seems poised to make larger inroads into the film 3d post production and having a linux version of max or at least a linux renderer could open it up as an option to vfx houses who primarily use linux.

[mullemeck]

Yea. it would be great if they made a linux version.

If so i would totaly go over to use linux instead of Windows

[Namroth]

I hope for linux render...

[Neox]

a new version would be really great... look at the scripts some are from 1992, the program is damn slow, can't reach XSI's Feature List (ok no software can't right now), its not stable, the "new" modellingtools suck, meshtools 2.5 aren't working in max 5, the rigging/skinning process is just painful... overall i'd say, max is getting old... old and heavy

a new code would be really great, but such features as stability and speed would be ok too :rolleyes:

:edit: i heard a while ago, that the new max would get a new core, but i guess these are only rumors, hu? :edit:

[PokeChop]

Gosh, I know how Max feels...sometimes I too feel like I'm getting old and heavy...oh wait...

[visualboo]

Originally posted by Neox
a new version would be really great... look at the scripts some are from 1992, the program is damn slow, can't reach XSI's Feature List (ok no software can't right now)
Actually max has about a zillion features that XSI doesn't..... Don't get me wrong, XSI is awesome and the features that it does have are very nice but "feature" wise max is way heavier.

meshtools 2.5 aren't working in max 5
Whaa? I've been using them in max 5 since the beginning, right next to csPolyTools.

[EricChadwick]

Don't know if you guys have seen this preview of 3dsmax6 (http://www.ericchadwick.com/examples/3DSMAX6.exe). Absolutely amazing.

Shhhhh.


P.S. I don't normally send or run EXEs, but you'll just have to trust me on this one.

[Dave Black]

posm: I remeber that one, lol....ahhhh...good stuff.

neox: I use Meshtools 2.5 in max 5 as well.

holosynthetic: Sorry, hehe, I do that sometimes. :D

-3DZ

:D

[Neox]

1. i'm a maxuser and i'm working with it since years, i love it and i won't change but there are things, that xsi, maya (etc) have that max doesn't, sure max has a lot of other features, such as softselections or a clean chamfer which maya doesn't have... but the point is that a lot of features in xsi or maya are just great for the workflow, a hotbox plus a quad system would be cool, such great automatic skinnings as in xsi, working booleans and maybe i'll work with nurbs if they were better in max :D

yeah max is heavier then xsi, but its damn slow and not stable, xsi is i never saw xsi crashing when one of my workmates is working with it...

u are using the meshtools 2.5 not the meshtools on the second max cd? :surprised
how do you do that? the connect doesn't work... nothing works as it sould and that totaly sucks, i had to use the meshtools 3.0... a later version with a lot of tools missing :hmm:

[Dave Black]

Neox:

I have no idea what I did different, as I just loaded meshtools 2.5 as I always have, and I works. If fact, it've loaded it up on about 10 machines the same way, and it's worked every time.

-3DZ

:D

[visualboo]

Neox: Go to www.scriptspot.com and DL 2.5. It works fine.

yeah max is heavier then xsi, but its damn slow and not stable, xsi is i never saw xsi crashing when one of my workmates is working with it...
Yup max is a bit slower than XSI (one of the "features" I love about xsi) but it still crashes quite a bit. XSI is still pretty unstable imo.

but the point is that a lot of features in xsi or maya are just great for the workflow,
totally agree with that about xsi... although I REALLY wish it had some kind of quad setup. Ah I'm getting off topic now.

[treed]

Rememeber it's all about the user. You can create pretty much anything you want in standard max if you know what your doing. Look at The Cathedral for example. Tomek used Brazil and Stitch to make it but if he used standard max 5, his film still would have been as poplular as it is now because he knows it so well.


treed

[3dsmax5]

Wasn't max 3 an almost complete rewrite? :D

[treed]

I'm pretty sure it was. It had like a thousand new things to it.


treed :)

[visualboo]

Lots of new features and a complete rewrite are completely different though.

[Dave Black]

Exactly.

If you guys have evidence to suggest that Discreet is planning on scrapping years of funtional code, I'd love to see it.

There is no re-write. Period. There never has been. They have updated, and upgraded the core system, but have never built the software back from the ground up.

-3DZ

:D

[sam]

More than likely the maxcodebase will live on in some form or another in some product that Discreet targets a market with (Plasma anyone?) and Discreet will debut some totally new 3d program paradigm that will open up the high-end market for them.

It will have maybe family resemblance to 3ds max but again be a whole new paradigm. And, I've heard rumors of this since before max 4 came out, so they've had plenty of time by my calculation to get this stuff together. And the reluctance that Discreet has towards dropping its price point lends credibility to the likelihood that Discreet has something BIG up its sleeve. Max 6? who knows, but they will be giving us something new and big to look at soon, I betcha. I am guessing it will be some beautifully integrated 3d animation/3d compositing solution.

Keep asking yourself why are they keeping to a losing price point . . .

They got something up their sleeve . . .

sam

[robioto]

"Look for some really neat new features, but Discreet is saying that stability superscedes all other developments."


3DZ, did they mention any features specifically, or areas of the program that were going to be improved?

-r

[Dave Black]

Hey, sam, I really agree with that on so many levels, but the way Discreet(3dstudio Divison) seems to be portraying themselves, is that they are just treading water. That the pricetag of 3DS is due to the high cost of upkeep and futher development, and that A/W etc. are lowballing Discreet in attempt to gain market share. In fact, I've been told that directly by a Discreet Rep.

I'm not as in-the-know as you, sam, and I greatly respect your opinions on the matter. You seem to have a major grasp on the product, and I'd like to hear more about where your thoughts on the matter are coming from.

It would seem that R6 will be a significant enhancement, but nothing really earth-shattering. We see more and more with each release that Discreet/Kinetix/Autodesk has been purchasing technology from 3rd party developers, and integrating that tech into their product.

I find Combustion to be an interesting Discreet product to look at. Discreet combined i think, paint, effect, and flame...I could be wrong...

So you forsee that they will continue to combine product lines to eventually come up with some sort of...SuperApp?

Interesting stuff for sure.

-3DZ

:D

[SuperMax]

Well they better hurry with something new fast

Maya is catching upto us. They will be out with Maya 5 soon:applause:

we atleast have to stay one number ahead!!!:thumbsup:

[Dave Black]

Damn, got that one under my long winded reply to sam..hehe.

Yeah, robioto, they mentioned a bunch of stuff, but I'm not privy to the other side of the coin. I was at a Game Developer's Con, so it was targeted at gaming, which max really does own the market on.

I'd be interested to find out about more features geared to the cinematic side, as that's more my interest.

Most of what they mentioned was pipeline integration, workflow enhancements, and of course, stability....which I don't like to see listed as a "feature"....

-3DZ

:D

[santiago]

I heard in 1999 that MAX 5 was going to be a complete re-write
i hope so

yeah, it could be much faster, and yeah, it's been like a decade straight, it deserves a rewrite.

I personally would love to see MAX on linux, back in the day when it was one of the cheapest 3D apps, it would've been expected to see MAX port to linux. Those days are gone it seems.

What if discreet lowered MAX's price to like a thousand bucks?
:p

I like the name "3D Studio" by the way, I hope they go back to that name again

[holosynthetic]

hey 3DZ...what I don't understand about the GDE was that discreet asked about why maya is considered high-end and Max isn't when the number one thing 3ds max is going for is the gaming side..why ask the question if they've made their mind to take the lesser route to become high-end

high poly models will always be around in max in my opinion, just as long as they keep editable poly and the mesh smooth modifier

[Dave Black]

You gotta look at it from a couple of angles, holo.

What we saw that day, was the game-dev's side of the coin. I think we can all argue that Max is not generally considered a high-end app, though it really can hold it's own now. They were mostly marketing people, and they wanted to know what the hell Maya has over max.

Really, Maya, Soft, etc. are just considered "High-End" because they got to the high-end market first, and now are integrated with the pipeline. *EDIT* Not to say that Maya and Soft are not High-end, or very nice apps, just that max is a contender with them as of lately.*EDIT*

At GDCE, there was a room full of game developers, who where getting a sales pitch. Discreet taylored their demo to fit the audience. They even said so.

I understand where you are coming from, as I thought their overall behavour to be a bit unprofessional and unorganized.

That "Round Table" discussion, was basically us asking for a feature, and Discreet saying 'Well, do you want that feature? Or do you want stability?"

That, my friend, was utter, and complete BS.

-3DZ

:D

[halo]

was told by a discreet rep 2 months ago to expect max6 in q3, and that was in the same breath as he was trying to sell me upgrades to 5

as far as max's user base in games, i think thats dwindling, maya has an excellent path direct into the xbox, and thats reflected by at least 3 big studios i know using maya only. however max is still strong in the market, but i think its no longer in domination. theres also the + side of say learning maya allows you to expliot opportunities not only in games but also in the fx industry where max is less prevailent.

if you want to see how much of a hold max has, go check out the recruitment boards and see how many ask for max experience and how much ask for maya.

back OT, maya 5 is around the corner, maya 5 is in wide beta but i dont have any details of it. if its a good upgrade then there could be a good little scrap on :)

[holosynthetic]

hey 3DZ, the round table was probably the most interesting part in my opinion, nice to see what they are putting in max 6, but it also seems that almost every feature people asked for was rejected by discreet saying "well why should we incorporate it if some old plugin can do it" when people like myself would rather have a workable plugin made by discreet so i know it doesn't screw up max when i use it, they had open ears..and listened well, but i think the only one really listening to us was the guy with the not pad...everyone else seems to disagree with our thoughts

[Reality3D]

And what they are putting to max 6 ?

[holosynthetic]

I don't really know if i am allowed to say anything, but I guess i will say what suprised me the most, and one feature I really wanted in it, they are incorporating a full version of deep paint in max 6 in order to make textures alot easier to deal with by just editing the 2d work in max..i guess it is gonna be alot similar to the ghost painter 2.0, but we never saw any screen shots..just saying they were implimenting it in there..not how it was gonna be done

[Dave Black]

Reactor 2 will make it's debut in R6 as well. It has alot of new cool stuff like ragdoll joints.

There is alot of cools stuff, and It will all come out soon enough.

-3DZ

:D

[holosynthetic]

3DZ..why don't you ever get on AIM?

[Dave Black]

I don't know...

I guess because I hate the client it puts on my system. I sometimes use the jahva version, but I prefer yahoo messenger.

zealot3d would be my handle on there, and I'm online now...Just invisible.

-3DZ

:D

[SuperMax]

Just a question

Do you think Discreet is more intouch with its customers than the other 3d users and thier respective apps?

The impression I get is that Discreet likes to do it as a team and they wanna do it their way!
But the other 3d apps are more intouch with their customers, they give them what they as for if its possible. More friendly relations.


Am i correct on this?

Like i said this is just an impression i got from reading various thread on cgtalk. I could be totally wrong.:shrug:

[halo]

perhaps take a visit to the discreet max forums and see what you think :)

[holosynthetic]

I personally believe that if you ask for something from discreet they'll go out of their way to try and say there are other ways to doing something even if its not as easy as the thing your asking for..

simple as this..i asked for a feature like c4D has that lets you separate the render into different layers in after effects..their reply was that you can do something similar to that with combustion..which from there you can convert file types..then import into after effects....hmm interesting..but what if i don't wanna buy combustion for $1000....when i already invested in After effects..that pissed me off

[Dave Black]

Hey, holo, you do realize that you can render the different elements IN max, right?

That feature has been built into the software since R4.

At least, if I'm reading you right.

-3DZ

:D

[holosynthetic]

i would much rather just render it as one big file type then import it into after effects...i want simplicity..to much to ask for?

[googlo]

Isn't that what hte RLA format save option is for?

[Icestar]

Sheesh i never knew i would start such a big thread.......thxs guys very interesting read.

[xynaria]

Discreet to date don't seem to really know what to do with Max... they don't seem that cognizant as to why many ended up going the Max route intitially and it's advantages in the market place and neither do they seem to want to see that market place as in constant flux and dynamic.
Take plugins... yes the plugin architecture works well for 4 years ago when Max was competitively priced but often as not it's a pain. Some don't get along together so well and every time they make major changes (all but R5 .. they have to be recomplied which often can take months.) Also they don't know what features are possibly best left to the plugin developers and what areas to concentrate on getting Max up to par on. Their rendering solution for R5 wasn't the 'best available' and still leaves many wanting plugin renderers for a more complete and speedier solution. LW uses plugins a lot but they tend more afaik to complement the feature list rather than replace it.
Whilst the Ik rewrite was great, schematic view, render elements, HSDS modifier, etc etc etc were not and were far from elegant solutions if they could be called solutions at all. I really do hope that they have actually picked the ball up with Max 6 cos with Max 5 it was bouncing around yelling help me help me all over the place.
They also know how to design a usable interface so let's hope they make one for Max. :)

[Dave Black]

Well, as for max's user interface, that's a load of steaming horse shit. There is almost nothing that you can't do to change it's interface to your liking. I don't even want to hear that.

Max 5 is a significant improvement over 4, and 6 will be that much better. If you want max to BE Maya, or soft, or LW, then go buy one of them. Max is an open plugin chassis. That's what makes it max. Yes, it's lacking certain things that need to be addressed, but they are being addressed. Give it some time, guys, this app is different, and has it' own problems and benefits. I've been using it to make money for years now, and have always been very happy with it in the end.

-3DZ

:D

[Equinoxx]

Amen to that 3DZ ;)

if ANYTHING I want to see max improved in areas of speed & stabillty . . . then and ONLY then, add more usefull stuff to it.

would be nice tho if even more was customisable. like the mousebuttons for instance.

also, it would be nice to have 'area's you know, like a model area, animation area, texture area that sorta stuff. areatabs on the topside of max, to provide only the tools nessecary for the task at hand.
that might be only me tho . . .

[xynaria]

Originally posted by 3DZealot
Well, as for max's user interface, that's a load of steaming horse shit. There is almost nothing that you can't do to change it's interface to your liking. I don't even want to hear that.

-3DZ

:D

Not quite.....some does require scripting which some haven't got the time or capability to do and some isn't apparently that ammenable to that even
I view Max as Max not as a Maya substitute or a LW substitute. There are things I dislike and like in all programmes and some things are just inane. I would say scrolling panels are the latter. Things like selections at sub object level should be easily visible whatever tool you need to use but they aren't in an area that can be made always visible.. that is just plain bad and ill thought out design. As for scrolling panels.... quads can only take so many instructions and if the whole tool set was organised in a much better way then there would be no need for scrolling or dragging across the viewer screen.
What is the point of having selection sets if the moment you do any mesh editing they no longer work? .. very little. If Max did look at its problematic areas and do a proper fix a la IK then people wouldn't even mind the wait but as long as it keeps throwing in features that are half assed attempts to be able to say they are included in the feature set then it doesn't inspire confidence. :)

[KiboOst]

Originally posted by Equinoxx


also, it would be nice to have 'area's you know, like a model area, animation area, texture area that sorta stuff. areatabs on the topside of max, to provide only the tools nessecary for the task at hand.
that might be only me tho . . .

Oh please no no no aeras !! Maya has this, and this is really a pain in the ass ! your menus allways change you never know where to take your functions, really crappy ! Big studio use it, as some guys model, different one textures, and other animate/render. BUT freelance and small studios don't works like this.

Kib

[Equinoxx]

hm, didn't know maya had that :shrug:

dunno IF it's usefull either, just thought it might be . . .
cause when modeling i sure as hell don't want to see the timeslider and trackbar . . .

i know i can hide those [got hotkeys setup for them]
but well, yeah, dunno i think i might find it usefull . . .

[Libor]

I have just saw a Maya 5 polygonal modelling video (with big expectations) and I have to laugh every time they scrolled a long list of commands for extrude, bevel etc at the top of the screen! I know that Maya can be totaly customized (as Max can be too) but standard user want to just start the app and use it not go deep with customizing hotboxes all day long! Yes, there is also huge construction history on every step you ve done ie. during modelling but in real life the fastest way is to "touch" geometry and correct things by hand in a second not to go searching in a long list of commands you have done playing with some fancy gizmos!

When comes to UI, I think that any other package cant beat max poly modelling workflow and I cant believe somebody can say Max´s new modelling tools sucks compared to polytools scripts (I used them too of course)!!!

Yes, there are still missing features, but the elementary tools (mainly used during projects) in fifth incarnation of max are more than satisfying and thats why we are max users. Or not??!

[KiboOst]

Personnaly I love the way max work (stack for instance) and its UI, which isn't slow at all, as somes are saying. Go on maya, you will see what a heavy ui is.
Anyway, I'm really fed up with the arrogance of discreet claiming 3dsmax is high end and the best, and then it's normal it cost 2x more than maya. But compara complete solutions : maya unlimited, and 3dsmax+cs+shag hair+fR+realflow. And don't forgot all these OLD and totally useless stuff (booleans, shematic view, etc etc). I don't think there is much highend functions in max. Even if yes, poly modeling and new max5 unwrap really rox. 3dsmax5+fR stage1 is definitely a good package, but wo, what a price !! :eek:

So no other way, switch on maya :annoyed:

[gaggle]

Yeah sure the UI in MAX is pretty cool, I think what discreet has done to it has been rather spiffy. My grief with MAX is how limited those improvements seems to've been.
I think this may be what xynaria was refering to: For instance, in R5 we got the incredibly handy Repeat Last command, but it only works on epoly's.. it's a feature imo clearly included because Maya has it, but the way it's been implemented is halfassed.. in Maya it's a feature supported through every level of the program..

There's also, say, MAXScripting. In Maya, essentially everything you do is outputted to the script-editor, which comes in incredibly handy for automating certain tasks and setting up simple scripts. MAX has that as well, infact it's a direct copy of the Maya feature, it's just that not everything outputs to the recorder.. gah.

MAX has SO many things -- well, lets say "inspired" by Maya, and yet many of them seem to've been poorly implemented. The list goes on: we got the ability to convert subselections in epoly objects, but in the UV Editor it's done with other buttons, in its own UI. Confusing, imo. So that's my wish for MAX6, that they take a look at their various features, and integrate the whole thing more.

That, and stability :)

I agree that, at least from my perspective, it seems as if discreet has been treading water, not really being able or just not wanting to devote the time and energy on keeping MAX truely up to date. I like the program, don't get me wrong here, it has certian things going for it that are very very nice. For what it's worth I think Maya has its share of problems as well :).

Essentially, I'd just like to see less "wow" features quickly implemented so MAX can present a long bulleted list of "we can do this and this and this", and instead a focus on making it the best 3d platform to do our work on.

Sorry for the ranting :)

[xynaria]

In it's way the repeat last command has been available since R4 in that if you click on the inner quad of the quad it repeats the last command as such.. this was especially useful for Mesh Tools.

To my mind for the 18 month wait R5 was a bad joke, one especially in poor taste for anyone who had bought Viz as a rendering solution. Sure there were improvements, but so much of Max hasn't been touched for years and has fallen well behind in what is generally considered the 'norm' on far less expensive programmes, particularly particles. Again E Poly was a great improvement.. but conversion of Nurbs is still triangulated!!!! and as for the Nurbs themselves!!!!!.. the list is lever so long.. the remedies ever so missing. :)

[gaggle]

Oh right, the quads has that. Just for the record I'm refering to the Repeat Last in the epoly rollout. I find it pretty darned handy when bound to a key :)

[ronald_hartman]

I've tried the workflow of many programs like XSI, Lightwave, Maya, Cinema4D, Wings3D and MAX. When i'm looking at polygon modeling workflow only 2 programs really work intuitively: XSI and Wings3D which is free! I've worked with MAX since version 1 and the basic workflow is still the same as it was in 1996. Sure, we now have quad-menu's and true polygon editing but still.....once you've seen the simplicity of something like Wings3D and the way it works.....a lot of 3D programs can learn a lot from that!
When it comes to out-of-the-box modeling (not customizing the ui for a week) MAX is still a LOT of work....(and MAYA even more....)

[ronald_hartman]

oh and what would come in really handy in MAX6 is a way of intuitively changing the weight of a vertex, edge or polygon. In cinema4D you just select one or several vertex, edge or polygon...press and hold the '.' - key and you interactively adjust the sharpness (weighting) on that part of the polygon object. Very handy to fine-tune your model and no need to browse through some sort of command panel..

[KiboOst]

Edge creasing could also be enhanced. Actually creasing an edge become very easy sharp. It could attract vertices around but stay "smooth" AND sharp, more organic.

[Dave Black]

Perhaps the overall problem we are seeing here is lack of focus.

Really, what is Max's strength?

Or Maya's for that matter?

I've always looked at Max as "Jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none".

Until R4, Max's modeling ability was, IMHO, so piss poor that I was forced to use Nendo(A cheap little program that wings3d is copied from). It's modeler is pretty great now. Could it be improved? Yes. I've been a vocal critisicer of Discreet's lack of motivation in regard to of beefing up Max's core modeling set.

Booleans, NURBS, and even patches NEED a big rewrite. Period.

I think I can speak for a grand majority, when I say that when Discreet gives us a new feature, it's usually so lack-luster, disabled, and unpolished, that it seems it takes 1 or 2 further releases to flesh-out the tool, and by that time, we've had to find a workaround.

Some of the new stuff in R5 is such an amazing improvement, that it's quite frankley blown my mind, but it's still got along way to go.

My own personal belief, is that so many people "grab" the latest version of Max, take a quick look at it, and never really delve into the new features, then bitch that they want a feature that is already part of the package. That little booklet that comes with Max, you know, the new features book...that's a great little thing that very few seem to read...eh hem....

I'm tired of seeing people using scripts to do functions that are native in R5.

Ok, this post is too long as it is, so I gotta stop for now...sorry.

-3DZ

:D

[eek]

Mmm.. i had a play with max 5 but found it a bit flaky. Maxs is 4 fine for now, its stable and reliable. Also mine is scripted as f*** which gives me all the features i need. Also if you use FR!! ahh nice. Im waiting for this max 6, re-write ive heard about oh, must be last august i heard they where gunna do that. Im still thinking whether to jump to maya, dont know yet?

eek

[Mahlon]

Max 5 has been doing everything I need so far, which is mostly high poly character stuff, and really very well -- even though it is a bit awkward in the skin modifier. Just kind of clunky all 'round.

The main thing I could be critical of discreet for has already been mentioned lots by others -- and that is to see better implementation of a feature when it is introduced. In my mind, if you're going to have feature 'x', you've got to make it the most inovative, user friendly way. Especially now, with lower pricing of Maya. I think they've done very well with several features though,(like 5's UVW unwrapping, HI/IK and I have no problem with the poly object modeling tools at all) but they've missed on some like the skin modifier and I think some of the new lighting functions don't seem quite the best.

I'm sure I have no idea of the mechanics of how discreet evolves or creates their software, and I'm sure the peeps at discreet are more on top of things than most give them credit for. So I only say these things from a perhaps ignorant --but valid-- consumer point of view.

Ok, good implementation of a feature, you ask? I think that the NLA Mixer in CS4 is pretty impressive. It's easy to work with, it's fast, it's intuitive and lots of cutting edge features to keep up with the Joneses. But why oh why must we have to keep splitting things up in max? Why can't this whole system work with regular bones? It's such a vex to break the workflow between the two. It's fro reasons that I probably don't understand, but why keep on with TCB and quaternion function curves. I can work fine with Euler, and it makes sense and works.

And let's not forget particles....but I just read that little NAB snippet this morning which sounds like great news for particle folks.

...a 3ds max technology demonstration of new particle flow tools, and new 2D/3D workflow capabilities with the industry's best implementation of the FBX file format.

(now I think about, I'm really curious as to what the 'new 2d/3d workflow capabilities...' are)

Anyway, just rambling. But eek, if you can use 5.1, it's pretty stable -- at least on my machine. I think they did fix a lot of the flakiness in 5.0. Good for me was fixing the reactor controller which works perfectly now.

Mahlon

[KiboOst]

this particle flow seems really promising. Anyway I'm asking mysef if we will finally be able to do wiring in medit. Or mayeb a schematic implementation for medit ? let's dream.. :/

Kib

[halo]

Nurbs dont need a rewrite, they need to be written in the first place ;)

[xynaria]

Originally posted by 3DZealot


My own personal belief, is that so many people "grab" the latest version of Max, take a quick look at it, and never really delve into the new features, then bitch that they want a feature that is already part of the package. That little booklet that comes with Max, you know, the new features book...that's a great little thing that very few seem to read...eh hem....

I'm tired of seeing people using scripts to do functions that are native in R5.

Ok, this post is too long as it is, so I gotta stop for now...sorry.

-3DZ

:D

A company in the position that Discreet is in is going to generate most of its revenues from upgrades not new sales.. something that at least on the surface makes its pricing strategy in the face of what amounts to a full on assault by A|W seem very bizarre.. even if they have got something in the wings. A lot I've heard haven't bothered to upgrade to R5......and if R5 is indeed as competent an up grade as you mention then that is a failure of Discreets ability to communicate because it isn't coming over as such.......meaning that they are losing out not just from those who have migrated to Maya but also those who continue to use Max whilst shaking their heads in despair. :)

[drunkirishmic]

hey xyn, knew u couldnt resist.

anyways, they stick with tcb and quaternions because they r the most accurate for of rotational transformations. they eliminate gimbal lock, and now that they hav fcurves, why even bother with euler?

max rocks

i think they should dumb it down some, in the initial package at least. kinda what maya has in its, unlimited,complete, etc. but make the sub packages for animating, modelling, effects, stuff like that. so u could buy the base package for like 600 bones or somethin, u couldnt do much with it, but for 600 bucks who would complain. then sell the other packages for 800-1000. but they would hav to make the individual packeges the shit. i guess thats what the plugin model was all about, but if they could organize them better and integrate them better than third parties.

[Dave Black]

Hey, xynaria, I was talking about the people who are using R5, not R4...if that's what you meant by quoting me...

Not sure what you infered from my post...

-3DZ

:D

[holosynthetic]

after seeing two big releases from two big companies in these last few days...should we expect max 6 on thrusday or friday? just kiding :)

[halo]

q3 i've been told....

[xynaria]

Originally posted by 3DZealot
Hey, xynaria, I was talking about the people who are using R5, not R4...if that's what you meant by quoting me...

Not sure what you infered from my post...

-3DZ

:D

Basically that you say R5 is a huge improvement.. aplogies, I quoted not the best quote. ... it doesn't read to a potential purchaser as neccessarily being so., and so they aren't going to delve in the first place. :)

[Dave Black]

Gotcha.

Now that, I agree with.

I was speaking out at what seems to be a growing epidemic of either seemingly lazy, or dishonest(pirates) max users, not willing to invest the time to learn the new features of a very expensive program.

Discreet does need to get it's act together with promoting Max.

-3DZ

:D

[Mahlon]

Originally posted by drunkirishmic


anyways, they stick with tcb and quaternions because they r the most accurate for of rotational transformations. they eliminate gimbal lock, and now that they hav fcurves, why even bother with euler?

I know that quaternions avoid gimbal, etc. And that's great. But their f-curve's in CS4 are not that great. There are no tangents and still, x, y, and z, are not broken out into seperate channels with seperate keys. Seperate channels seems much more valuable than avoiding gimbal lock, imo.

Mahlon:beer:

[drunkirishmic]

i agree their fcurves arent as intuitive as eular, but the fact that they hav fcurves on quaternions at all amazes me. hav u seen the math involved in those damn things!? anywyas, i think the cs dev is going further than the max core dev is. look at the benefits given to cs4 from 3, its got a lot of new things, and i havent had it mess up on me once.

i agree about the skinning too, physique isnt too bad, but the skin mod is clunky

[BigSerge]

Woooooe!!... Doggy!! and sweet nelly what a thread. Okay I must jump in on this one (Maya vs Max) or (Max vs The world) of High-end 3D app etc... I will say up front that I do 100% agree with My man 3DZealot on saying that Max is a "jack of all trades and master of none" next I must mention that I see that some of the CG artist around here seem to forget a key element when
it comes to art (The artist makes or defines the pencil or tool thy are working with and not vise versa) well vise versa to point cause, seriously you'd be kidding me if you told me you drew a kick arss drawing with a pencil on the classroom blackboard?? I think you guys get where I'm going with this I hope. Maya "High-end" yes because of the work the talented artist generated with it and the work they've produced is the kind that is used mainly in film. Maya, Soft, Houdini all did not fall in that bracket because the developers created a new pencil that with a push on the eraser you have stunning art generated. Same deal goes with Max folks if a company wishes to use Max especially R5 to generate a feature film, can they do it?? you dam skippy they can. I'll be repetitive by stating that the 2HB pencil is only as good and as high-end as the Talented Artist that uses it. Finally I'll stop my bickering by saying be thoughtful on your demands or should I say be realistic. Think about it some users ask for better particles, better NURBS etc... the question that we all should ask is, how many of you are pro's that are in dying need of that tool and it will definately Maximize your workflow? example of listed requested items (particles) how many of us are particle guru's or special effects techs? bottom line is if the tool is implemented
you'll most likely use it once out of 10 times you launch the program. I for one practice my modeling for film attached a couple of pics (Patch Modeled head) on the head I was practicing realistic Muscular structure "ALL MAX STANDARD PATCH and SURFACE TOOLS"


Love and Peace Peops

[Mahlon]

Originally posted by drunkirishmic
i agree their fcurves arent as intuitive as eular, but the fact that they hav fcurves on quaternions at all amazes me. hav u seen the math involved in those damn things!? anywyas, i think the cs dev is going further than the max core dev is. look at the benefits given to cs4 from 3, its got a lot of new things, and i havent had it mess up on me once.

i agree about the skinning too, physique isnt too bad, but the skin mod is clunky

Yep, agreed. CS4 is really a huge leap forward. I mean that's really an 'upgrade'. I'm happy with what they put in there. I just wish that it was part of max instead of CS. Think how awesome it would be if all the power and convenience of CS were able to be harvested from max bones and objects. But I see why they have to keep it as is because so many people's pipes rely on.

Mahlon

[xynaria]

@ Big Serge

LOL.. and if you tried to draw with a pencil that kept snapping or the lead was broken .. you'd have a hard time.. it's called workflow. A lot using Max for film work are going to want a decent particle solution and polys aren't the be all and end all of modelling. Nurbs can be extremely useful for a lot of instances and if you think you got em it's better that they they are usable.. and not just a lame excuse for a pricing policy...no? :)

[BigSerge]

Here yee Here yee on that Xynaria. I will admit for sure that using Max NURBS is like having rocks for breakfast with a side of sewage water to help the swallow. On the particle issue, even those using Maya, Houdini or Soft in the film business have programmers that build on top of what's already there or write P systems from scratch to meet the film demands. So with Max for now I can definately settle with plug-ins Thinking particles would be Ideal from what I've read on it. That means if a company was to use Max for film, there programmers would be doing the exact same thing (their jobs) rather they had a plug-in or not. Some one did make a great comment in a prior post that I think would be benificial to Discreet and may just be the solution to the end-users request and that is to have 2 versions of the pakage one basic and one with all the candy you need to satisfy your sweet CG tooth. I must ponder on another possibility for the Next Max release and that is it Having Combustion intergrated, think about it on Combustions release and few months to follow the thing was going for $3,000 smacks if not $6,000 somewhere between those 2 and about a few months ago WAM BAM THANK YOU MAM $995 wow pretty dramatic price cut don't you think (must be a significant future development reason ?) and also not a dollar price cut on Max after Major competitors blew the roof off the house with their cuts?? Let the game of Clue begin in trying to figure what will the next Max release be sporting ;)

[holosynthetic]

I agree with max having more modeling tools, anything thought up would be cool, and i would really like to learn nurbs..unfortunatly the max guides are hard to understand when trying to learn current nurbs...plus its not that much of a push for me to learn it if everyone says they suck..why learn something no one uses

[xynaria]

Originally posted by BigSerge
Some one did make a great comment in a prior post that I think would be benificial to Discreet and may just be the solution to the end-users request and that is to have 2 versions of the pakage one basic and one with all the candy you need to satisfy your sweet CG tooth.
I have commented for years on Max benefiting from a more modular approach and with the introduction of Plasma in a way they had the perfect opportunity to make that happen.. t'would be a huge boon for those cash strapped who wanted Max mainly for its polymodelling capabilities..... but Discreet made them unable to have a proper conversation with each other by giving Plasma a native file format in a similar fashion to G max, which started me seeing Discreet as a cynical exploitation exercise as opposed to a company that had any interest in its user base.
There has been rumours for ages about a version of Max called Maximus which in theory was Max with a whole bunch of plugin solutions incorporated though whether that is based much on fact is open to question as is how beneficial it may or may not be.
The problem with plugins is they are fine if the company continues its development and at a suitable pace.. but look what happened with the Reyes family when R 3 came out. The other problem is that if Max develops its own solution that it cares to do it well. I'm astounded that Max still hasn't got in built volumetrics but after the travesty that is the ink and paint shader then I'm half glad they left them alone. As 3D Zealot said its a question of focus and Max defining its strengths and building on them and either fixing it ditching its weaknesses. The other thing to remember is that, especially in Europe, a lot of small shops use Max and many of them want as complete a solution out of the box as possible.. they don't have the capabilities for dedicated TD's and if another programme has more usable features they'll go there. :)

[googlo]

xynaria,
The new DCP program Discreet has just started is supposed to guaruntee that plugins which make it into this program will continue on with Max even if the company that created them doesn't, I think, amongst other things.

[AnimBot]

Originally posted by Mahlon
Yep, agreed. CS4 is really a huge leap forward. I mean that's really an 'upgrade'. I'm happy with what they put in there. I just wish that it was part of max instead of CS. Think how awesome it would be if all the power and convenience of CS were able to be harvested from max bones and objects. But I see why they have to keep it as is because so many people's pipes rely on.

Mahlon

Mahlon I've been saying this for a long time. Personally I think it sucks that CS's functionality is not incorporated within Max itself. I felt pretty let down when release 5 actually didn't have any NLA and then here comes CS with it's brand spanking new system. As for pipelines they can change and adapt. It's certainly not unheard of for companies to switch over to completely different programs. It's not going to break anyone if disscreet dissolves CS into Max in some form or another. Just think how ridiculous it would be if A/W or Softimage released a character animation solution for their systems. Both packages are known for being very strong in this department. The fact that CS exist I think shows max still lacks in that area. The result seems to be instead of making max's native animation tools stronger they seem to be putting the focus on the inovation of CS instead.:annoyed: I will give them credit for release 4 though. The new bones and IK system was a major jump in the right direction. I just want to see more of that.

[drunkirishmic]

which brings us back to the modular approach of max. particle guys arent gonna want cs. so its not nesecarily sayin max lacks in that area, just that it gives a basic set of tools, but if u want the real deal, buy cs.

max is a hub, u get what u need to do the job u need to do. the idea is fine, but they charge too much for it. if i can buy maya or xsi for about 5 grand and it has everything i would ever need in it, then why would i spend 3 for the base package, another grand on character animation, another grand on thinking particles, another grand or whatever on reactor(which may or may not be worth it) well there is about 6 grand just to get as complete a package as maya or xsi are. i think if they lowered the price of the base package, they would revamp their user base. clean it up, make it more stable and let the user decide what kind of package he needs.

max wasnt designed to be a full flavored app, and i dont think any app should be. why spend money on crap u dont need?

[Mahlon]

Originally posted by drunkirishmic
which brings us back to the modular approach of max. particle guys arent gonna want cs. so its not nesecarily sayin max lacks in that area, just that it gives a basic set of tools, but if u want the real deal, buy cs.

I can agree with you here. Fine. Let CS be a module that you have to buy separately. (although it should cost less -- hell, max should cost a bit less, too)

The only thing I want is for CS to be assimilated into the rest of max. In other words, make Bipeds FULLY compatible with regular bones and all other aspects of max's animation/rigging techniques. They are moving in that direction, but I'd like to see the point where, when you create a biped, it's just the regular bones which can use euler controllers, etc. without having to put them in a sub-animation track that won't show up in the mixer until you collapse them. See?

Again, I'm not at all dissing CS. I've really grown to like it. And I feel sure discreet is taking all these kinds of things into consideration when they make these decisions, and they know better than I do. Here's hoping for some kind of marriage between the two, either in max 6 or the infamous 're-write', i.e. 'new program'.

Mahlon

[KiboOst]

The problem actually is that Discreet base their politic on the "buy what you need". So ok, we have a base package, and then can buy cs, shag hair, fR, thinking partucle, etc etc. Ok, I'm right with this point of view. BUT ! tell me how they can follow such a politic where the BASE price is 200% the price of several COMPLETE packages. This diesn't make any sense !!

[sireel]

After reading the entire thread (yes I'm a no lifer) I can say one thing: I'm really glad I'm not the only one feeling like this :)
I love Max, its a great tool and it has such potential to be an even better one but discreet just seems so resistant to making changes to it that really matter.
Whats more is that we all have a vested interest in seeing this application grow in stability as well as features (usuable features I should say) but is seems that with all of your crying and pleading Discreet really couldn't give a rats hole.
So we are stuck in a love hate relationship, we love max but hate how discreet is doing things. We ought to compile a document which lists the major changes that we think are needed and email it to discreet to just see if anyone really even cares.

So far it seems that the major things needed that we all mentioned here are:
1. Stability Stability Stability
2. Cleanup - removal of useless crap/ better integration of its current usuable tools (reactor, epoly tools etc ....)/make some unuable tools usuable (nurbs, HSDS, etc...)
3. Particles (?) not sure if everyone wanted or needed this
4. Better Prices - perhaps by making it modular.

[googlo]

those other packages aren't complete though.

To get the additional plugins for Maya to make it complete, you either have to buy third party stuff, or by the unlimited version Maya. Maya Complete should be called Maya Limited, that would fit better and match in relation to Maya Unlimited.

Maya limited = 2,000
Maya unlimited (actually complete)= 7,000

XSI, for the additional 'plugins' you jump from a base package of appr. 4,000(for new users I think) to like 12,000 (they should make the compositor optional) for the complete deal.

The same goes pretty much for all the other big 3d programs (except for lightwave, I don't know that much about it).

I agree though, Max should be less if it's suppose to be a base package that runs on the idea of being plug-in driven.

[AnimBot]

Drunkirishmic first let me say I totally agree with you on the points made about being modular. I however dissagree with the idea that max as it stands now follows the model of most modular systems.
The reason is this, programs that are modular seem to start out as a bare bones program that you can enhance or simply purchase the components in need. The intent being that the base program is limited only to the minimum of what is needed and the modules added would carry out the more specific needs of the user. From my observations of earlier versions of max to the latest release they seem pretty directionless. The extra "modules", mostly provided by third party, are created because of lacking, or inadequete functions in max not because it was all planned from the begining that they would provide users only the bare essentials and they can then add on to it as they wish. For evidence of this you can see what improvements they've added to the last couple of releases.
In R4 they added the new bones and IK system, along with wire parameters, epoly, rendering, camera, and lighting improvements. In R5 they added a slew of animation tools including character tools. A huge enhancement on rendering and lighting tools and a bunch of "new modelling tools". They also included reactor formerly a "module" into the package. Most of these were pretty highend improvements in their areas. I think these improvements show that they are trying to provide an all in one solution. They touch about every area of the package with some pretty advanced features. However even with all of these improvements they all seem to be half complete or less than stellar.
Now in contrast let's look at some other programs that are modular. Cinema 4D's base package is only $595 http://www.maxonshop.com/us/ they actually mention on their website that the base package is suited more for hobbiest. Of course you can add on more professional tools if you wish. Or buy the full bundle for $1695 Max has no such model.
Messiah is also an interesting product line. http://www.projectmessiah.com/x2/cgi/shop.pl?page=shop.htm What's interesting about this is that you can buy their different modules for use with completely different packages or you can purchase the bundle set in Messiah Studio for $1795. Max also has no model similar to this.
So basically what I'm saying is if max is going to present itself as an all in one solution then it should go full steam and provide the stable advanced and necessary tools to warrant the price. If it's going for the modular approach then it should also go give the same quality tools, but break it up at reasonable prices for each module, particularly the base program and let the consumer decide what he/she needs. Alright enough of my rant sorry if I was a bit long winded.

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