mac guy wants to build pc

[chi]

dont get ati :D

[dirge]

dont just say dont get ati, explain why not and tell me what i should get

:buttrock:
throw up your goats

the dirge

[JIII]

Because ATI does not suppost dual planes. thats the reason why,

Macs also dont support them. so the speed increase you would get with your cheap PC would be nullified.

[Iggy]

I'm no pro, but I've built a few high end computers. I lean away from Ati too, but I can't say for sure if there's really any good reason. I buy nVidia and I've been vey happy. The Geforce 4;s are supposed to be great, but the Geforce3 Ti500 64 meg is a great card for a good price (~$75), and it can be software hacked into a Quadro (software is called RivaTuner), a much more expensive and more useful card for 3d (don't think you can hack the 4s). I also have used P4s instead of AMDs. Again no good reason, though the folks at my local shop are much more into P4s and they oughta know. Overall I think that the P4s still have a little edge. You can check the ratings on a lot of PC hardware at Tom's Hardware (http://www.tomshardware.com).

I think that the hyperthreading that Intel has just introduced in the 3.06 Ghz P4 is going to be a big deal, especially for 3D, so even if you can't afford it now, it might be good to be ready. I'm trying to convince my boss to get me one soon, and I can just swap it out with my current 1.8, 10 minutes work. It's still $500 for one of those, but they're comign down. I definitely recommend ASUS boards. They're super reliable (if you go P4, get the P4TE something). I got into P4s for Solidworks, 3D CAD software. I've been nothing but happy with them. I only just started with Cinema, but it works great with them.

When you get ready to buy, a great site for price comparisons is www.pricewatch.com. You can generally find the lowest prices on components there. Also www.tigerdirect.com has some great deals sometimes.

Sorry I can't give you more info. I recommend that you head for Tom's Hardware. There's a LOT of great info there. Might take a little time to wade through, but with the investment that you're about to make, it'll be worth it...

Iggy

[Iggy]

Because ATI does not suppost dual planes. thats the reason why,

JIII, what does that mean? I hadn't heard this before. What are dual planes?

[JIII]

well I can't really explain it really well but over at postforum there was a long debate about this.

basicly what I have learned is Dual planes is good and anything else is bad.

but really I dont know well enough to tell you exactly what is going on under the hood.

However some people here do know so you will just have to wait for them to clear this up.

[Matt73]

Nice choice for your motherboard, I currently have asus a7v8x deluxe and have no problems with it at all. My current rig is as follows.

A7N8X Deluxe mobo
AMD XP 2400+
512 MB ram (PC3200) <-- I just ordered another 512 :cool:
PNY GeForce 4 4600
WD 120GB (special edition 8mb cache)

My rig runs non stop 24/7 smooth and quiet like, and when I need the power its there.

Good luck to you.

-Matt

[Per-Anders]

it doesn't matter what graphics card he gets, if it's for rendering only then just get the cheapest card you can, the graphics card has no bearing on render speed.

[dirge]

ive been doing toms hardware for recomendation etc, but a major problem i have is that i live in new zealand (actually thats a benifit but..) its realy hard to find online places that will ship here. hence pricewatch is pretty much useless.

so you guys would recomend a gf4ti6800/6400/6200 over the ati 9700pro? the benchmarks ive seen in cinebench seam to show the 9700 is more powerfull, are then any other reasons specifically for going nvidia over ati?

also the benchmarks ive seen (toms hardware) seam to show no benifit with hyperthreading with rendering, and in some cases its actually slower than the same chip with hyperthreading disabled. i guess it comes into its own with multiple processes running at once ect, but im not sure if it justifies the extra price over the p4 2800 barton. and teh amd 2800+ compares quite well with the 3.06 p4 in cinebench, especially when you consider its about half the price...

thnaks for all your help, more opinions would be much apreciated, as this machine is gona have to last me a while (just had a kid so no more toys fer about 20 years..)

cool.

and thanks again


the dirge :scream:

[dirge]

sorry when i ment for rendering i ment for running cinema as a whole, i will use my g4 for every day stuff and switch to the pc for 3d/audio

so the card will definately matter

cool

the dirge

[AdamT]

The benchmark that counts--Cinebench 2003--shows an 18% improvement in rendering with hyperthreading enabled, which is pretty significant.

[Iggy]

The benchmark that counts--Cinebench 2003--shows an 18% improvement in rendering with hyperthreading enabled, which is pretty significant.

Plus, if you're like me, you've got a dozen other applications running at the same time. Hyperthreading will really help pick up the slack in those situations. Obviously it's new, and it's hard to say what'll happen, and how useful it'll become...

I hadn't considered the New Zealand thing. I guess I'm surprised vendors won't ship their stuff wherever you want it sent. But not as surprised as I'd like to be.

[dAfTiE]

Only prob is the 3.06 with HT is a 3rd of the budget it seems :)
I'd say the setup you have there seems pretty nice.
I'd also like to just recommend you getting a good PSU.
With the XP 2800+ you'll need a pretty powerfull cooler,
and the CPU and GPU will take alot of power as well,
and it's no fun getting stability issues because you bought a cheapo psu.
The Enermax 530 ones are just great stuff :)

About the ATi vs. Nvidia thing,I go for the nvidias every time.
To be completely honest tho,I haven't tried the latest generation of ATi cards,
or their drivers,but I haven't been impressed by what I've read,
and before they can improve the OGL stuff in the drivers,
and their linux drivers in general,I'm not going to even look in ATi's direction.

And finally,good job dumping mac for the 3d work!
Pretty sure you're not going to believe the difference :)
Oh,dual planes are SO nice while animating...
Say you have a REAL dense,like wood or mountain landscape,
or something like that in the background,
that's static,and some other stuff that moves in front of it...
What the dual planes feature does is ONLY redraw the moving stuff.
Really speeds stuff up :)
Oh,and you know,the PC just generally being 3x faster helps as well ;)

[astrofish]

Iggy mentioned Tom's Hardware already. This is a _very_ good site for finding out what's good and what's not in PC hardware.

Whenever I'm doing an upgrade I always have a look around over there to see what's current and good.

Make sure you get a good motherboard. Lots of people think that the motherboard doesn't matter much and all they need is a fast processor and ram. If your motherboard's slow then your CPU will be held up and you won't get the benefit.

Cheers - Steve

[AdamT]

Good point about the power supply, although I'd say 500+ watts is overkill for a single cpu machine without a massive RAID array. I prefer Antec over Enermax for quality, price and lower noise.

Another important point, particularly if you go AMD: do *not* underestimate the importance of a high-quality heatsink/fan. Read everything you ever wanted to know and more about PC cooling at http://www.overclockers.com

Be aware that some of these high-performance HSFs are *loud*--like having a Hoover upright under your desk.

As far as hardware sites, I think Dr. Tom is still good, but not the authority he once was. Here are some other good sites:

http://www.anandtech.com
http://www.hardocp.com
http://www.lostcircuits.com

[LucentDreams]

on the issue of ATI cards, I ahve seen a few users CHI and Paul Everett come to mind, who have been riddled with problems using STI with C4D. Seems recent drivers have made some issues I didn't have at first with dual display and C4D, basically using C4D with dual display for a while eventually will freeze, the crash is always given error to the card and not C4D, though MayaPLE Clay and Warcraft do not create this problem even after hours and hours of use.

I also know a lot of users who are loving their ATI's, as long as I use mine on a single screen and not with dualdisplay on, then I have no problems, works just fine, great performance.

Never take advice from CHI when it comes to computers though, he seems to manage to crash anything and everything :p:rolleyes:

[handige_harrie]

[CPU] AMD or Intel:

It's almost the pure gHz's that count when it comes to rendering. The hyperthreading support of the 3.06gHz makes such a difference that it is worth the extra money. If you are into overclocking AMD's Thoroughbred-B core might be worth considering but still I don't think the AMD will beat the Intel in rendering.

In other words: just get the darn 3.06gHz :D

Perfect demonstration of Hyperthreading gain:
http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/20030210/barton-21.html

If you want to go for AMD the only options are the 1700+ Thoughbred-B, the 2100+ Thoroughbred-B.
These are specific cores; ask your hardware-supplier if they have them.


[GFX-card]NVIDIA or ATI:

Get the cheapest 128mb GeForce4 Ti4200. I am pretty sure you will not notice the difference between a Ti4800 or a Ti4200 in reality. Check my Cinebench result, I beat most Ti4600 and Ati 9700's. So it also comes down to CPU-power in the viewports.
I have no experience with ATI but the stories I read here and the Cinebench result say it all.

GFX-cards will become REALLY REALLY REALLY interesting when they are going to asist in rendering. They are working on this, and probably in three to five years time hardware and software will support this. I expect this will cut renderimtes about a hundred-fold. If you look at current FX in games that are pumped out at 50-100 frames per second and compare it with minutes to hours that some single frames take when rendering in C4D just on CPU-power. Probably only professional cards are going to support this in the future, and thus be very expensive. But it may well be worth the money.


[Memory]Brand or noname:

Definitely brand! I will never buy noname RAM anymore! Take it from me, just spend the few extra bucks on some decent RAM (Samsung, Infineon, Kingston, Corsair, Winbond, GEIL, Muskin, OCS, KingMAX, Curcial, TwinMOS) and save the troubles you get with OEM memory (about 1 in 4 OEM dimms are DOA(Dead on Arival)). Get some DDR 333(PC2700) or better (PC3000, PC3200, PC3500, PC3700). Currently Kingston HyperX is really nice; it will run at fast timings without troubles.
The amount of RAM is not so important because you can always upgrade later (just get a minimum of 512MB). Keep in mind that IF you want to overclock, two 256MB dimms will perform better than one 512MB dimm.


[Mainboard-Intel]What chipset is best:

If it is something I have learned it's that I will never by a mainboard with a VIA chipset again. The troubles I had with several VIA mainboard... I currently have a ASUS with a SiS 645DX chipset that has never given me a Blue Screen. SiS' chipsets after the 645DX had some troubles, so I cannot really recommend them. Intel chipsets have always been very stable (although the 645DX was at that time [6months ago] the fastest DDR chipset) so I would go for one of these if you want the latest technology with lots of features. If you want to save some money I can still recommend you the ASUS P4S533 (SiS645DX).

As for brands: 1.Asus


[Mainboard-AMD]What chipset is best:

Same story about VIA...
One word if it comes to a good AMD chipset: NVIDIA NForce2.
As or brands: 1.EpoX (8RDA, 8RDA+) 2. Asus

The Epox 8RDA(+) with NForce2 chipset is the best overclocking mainboard you will find. A lot of people buy a 1700+ or a 2100+ (just these two!!!) in combination with the 8RDA+ and run @ >200mHz FSB and speeds of >2.3gHz with the AMD. You have to do some overclocking but it's worth it. My 2100+(1733mHz) currently runs at 2080mHz with a cheap heatsink-fan combo (HSF) and without increasing Vcore (CPU voltage) I havent tried anything higher because mainboard doesn't allow that (el cheapo Asrock K7VT2).


[Power Supply Unit (PSU)]fuel your pc:

This is more important than you would expect. It influences stability a lot. Especially with current power-draining CPU's and GFX-cards. The number of Watt's is far less important than quality. An Enermax 300Watt will probably perform a lot better than a noname 400Watt. Just get an Enermax 350Watt (or higher if you have a lot of extra hardware).


[Harddisks]no IBM:

Not really important if you stick with IDE (ATA100, ATA133). Stay away from IBM discs, a lot of people have crashed them due to heat-problems. The last you want is to lose your C4D-files. Get Maxtor or Seagate or (a bit slower in general) Western Digital. I recommend getting two smaller discs. Put the OS and your apps on disc one and all your files (IE C4D-files) on disc two. You can format disc one (cleaning up your registry and removing obsolete apps) without having to save your data to disc two first.


[Extra consideration A]to overclock or not to overclock:

Extra perfor,ance for free is always a nice thing. I have my P4 2.0gHz running at a rock-stable 2.66gHz for 6 months now. Works like a charm. If you are doing Intel the boxed HSF will be sufficient. If you are getting AMD don't buy the boxed version but get a decent HSF (Thermaltake Volcano 7, 7+, 9). A good PSU is essential. And one or two extra casefans are not a luxuary. If you are planning to do some serious FSB overclocking on the 8RDA+ you will need to put small fans on the North- and Southbridge.

And as for the risks: don't increase Vcore too wild (Intel max 1.75V, AMD max 2.00V) and keep track of the temperature (take 60 degrees Celsius as a max for guideline) and you will never destroy your CPU, mainboard or anything else.


[Extra consideration B]single or dual PC:

Two systems linked together (cross-over cable is enough) can be the best thing that ever happened to you. You use one pc for modeling and animating and the other just for rendering. And with Maxon's Net render you can benefit from both systems if you are doing some serious rendering.
System 1 for all-round use doesn't need the best of the best in cpu-power, but needs a nice gfx-card and a fair amount of ram.
System 2 only needs cpu-power and a fair amount of ram. Save money on the rest.

Two pc's might not be within your budget, but I just wanted to point out the posibility.


Forgive me for some of the terms and my crappy English (after typing all this I don't feel like checking it for typo's :rolleyes: )

[Thalaxis]

Originally posted by astrofish
Iggy mentioned Tom's Hardware already. This is a _very_ good site for finding out what's good and what's not in PC hardware.

No, not really... you'd be much better with the sites that AdamT suggested, and in addition:

www.aceshardware.com
www.tech-report.com
www.arstechnica.com

[Iggy]

As far as hardware sites, I think Dr. Tom is still good, but not the authority he once was.

No, not really... you'd be much better with the sites that AdamT suggested

Okay, I don't doubt that you guys know what you're talking about regarding review sites, but could you give us a little more info than "It's not a good site"? What's not good about Tom's Hardware that's better about these other sites? I've gotten some great guidance in tech purchases from Tom's site, but I'm definitely open to others. Tell me what the difference is.

[Thalaxis]

Sites like Aces' and Tech-Report take the time to review machines thoroughly. They take the time to attempt to find out why their results are the way that they are. They generally don't get their reviews up as quickly as sites like Tom's, but they are generally more thorough and hence a lot more accurate as well.

Originally posted by Iggy
Okay, I don't doubt that you guys know what you're talking about regarding review sites, but could you give us a little more info than "It's not a good site"? What's not good about Tom's Hardware that's better about these other sites? I've gotten some great guidance in tech purchases from Tom's site, but I'm definitely open to others. Tell me what the difference is.

[flingster]

i think your original spec was fine.

personally i would go for fastest amd chip i could afford (pref 333buscompatible) and the most amount of ram my board could take...bare in mind...pc2700 ram on 333 boards...usually will only take 2pieces....o and get a 333 compatible board of course that way...ram, chip, and board are all running at 333 and not 266.
as for graphics card...at moment gforce4600 imho cos should get a good deal at moment what with ati9700 and nvidia fx chips competing.

good luck...:thumbsup:
ps. i think amd 333compatible bus chips start at 2.6gig...and up maybe 2.7.

[dirge]

thanks to everyone for thier opinions, lots of helpfull stuff.
its probably gona take me a month or so to fully decide, and hopefully by then some of the prices have dropped..then ill have to weigh everything up again...and buy then the prices will have dropped....

on o those viscious cycles.

anyhows thanks again =)

the dirge:drool:

[neonghost]

I'm alittle surprised that no one has mentioned using a dual Athlon solution (which I believe still comes out cheaper than the new 3.06gHz intel chips). Two dual Athlon MP's at 2gHz each (MP 2400+s) will cost AUD$820, while the motherboard to seat them will cost around AUD$465 (Tyan Tiger MP S2466N). A single stick of decent 512mb DDR ram will be ~AUD$200. You will also need a 530w power supply.

In a program which does support multiple processors, such as cinema4d, you would see performance surpassing the virtual threading (which, though obviously not in all applications, can also hamper performance) which the new Intel chips procide.

[AdamT]

Don't forget that in a dual rig you also need double the ram, so you'd want at least 1Gb total.

[dirge]

i had actually considered going dual, but a while back i saw a tomshardware review comparing dual athlons to a single athlon/single p4 and the reveiw didnt realy sell me

http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/200203131/dual-08.html

i had a look around locally a while back and found limited dual motherboards availiable so i would have to go through the hassel of finding and importing one as well.

i will look around some more

the dirge

[Erik Heyninck]

I tend to agree with HandigeHarrie.
My suggestion would be :

-Asus P4G8x Deluxe mainboard (dual channel ram, Glan, sound etc on board)
-PIV 3.06 (don't forget that Hyperthreading needs WinXPPro!!)
or PIV 2.8 with Win2000Pro SP3(still my favourite OS)
-1GB of brand ram (2x512), or even 2GB if the budget permits it.
-a HDD of 40GB
-Geforce4Ti 4200 128MB graphics card (the differences with the 4400 and 4800 are mostly for gamers)
-a case with some 350watts power supply

Dual planes means that only that what is changed is redrawn. The rest of your pic in the viewport is kept.
I can't guarantee that the Geforce4Ti 4200 supports dualplanes, but I suppose so.

[handige_harrie]

If the Ti4600 supports dual-planes, every Ti4x00 will.

In any case don't get a GeForce 4 MX 4x0, it's old and slow technology compared to the Ti4x00's.

[handige_harrie]

Another benchmark that shows how much you can gain with Intels Hyperthreading:

X-bit labs:

We can’t say anything principally new about rendering with CINEMA4D package. By the by, just look what a failure an AMD Athlon XP 3000+ appears in 3D modeling applications. This situation became a common case after Intel had provided its CPUs with Hyper-Threading technology support. The “virtual multi-processor configurations” implemented with the help of Hyper-Threading improve the performance of the Pentium 4 processor quite a lot, as it allows using its resources in a more efficient way.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/images/cpu/athlon64/cinema4d.png

http://www.xbitlabs.com/images/cpu/p4-800/cinema4d.png

It is also interesting to see in the second image that in C4D cpu clockspeed is more important than fsb speed or memory speed.

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