Still: 2D, I R A Q

[bigbad]

Can you explain what this picture is about. I see a womans face and USA flag wraped on her head. Is there more to it.


Otherwise it´s very clean and nice piece.

[j00st81]

oh dear, this could become a flamewar ;)

I like the thought behind it, very well done
:beer:

[winberg]

I love it...

-Tom (norwegian)

[=kz=]

nice image, it's really powerful.
hope this doesn't turn into a flame war.

[iBlue]

posting things like this is just begging to be flamed.

>lips sealed<

But man, i could really let loose on this.

[robinson]

Originally posted by iBlue
posting things like this is just begging to be flamed.

>lips sealed<

But man, i could really let loose on this.

me too, me too ! :insane: :twisted:
stop it, control yourself :argh: :D

ok , i'm getting down, :rolleyes: great work... :cry:

[bowman]

I guess it is supposed to be some sort of profound political statement...:shrug:

[Spirit2029]

nice oil drill holes there, I really like the overal thought behind this...flame war, no really?...:annoyed:

[xynaria]

:beer: :)

[JasonA]

I think it does exactly what good art is supposed to do -- provoke thought. Very nice work xmb, and cool form to it. definitely captures my thoughts about it

:thumbsup:

[Ferg]

I like it. Very good work. Good concept, well executed. :beer:

[MidNit]

Excellent concept, and very well portrayed, it's quite thought provoking...

[snikki]

XMB,

Excellent piece of work! I might not agree with the statement but IMHO that's a real piece of art.

Keep it up!

SAmi

----------------------
- www.saminikki.com (http://www.saminikki.com) -
----------------------

[ghilbli]

i love it , i very clean design. and also very obviuse where you stand on the subject. maybe people around these forums spend too much time in la la land. it's about time we tactle the subject.
has anyone created anything inspired by the present situation???

[aenema]

awesome work. nice and clean, and really good concept! :thumbsup:

[chk]

Crit Sandwich:

I can't believe it hasn't been mentioned yet, but the descending strokes (blood) are WAY too long. Annoyingly so. Plus the fact that there are only 2 of these extra long strokes unbalances the entire graphic.

The shapes in the center work VERY well, with some great curves on the flag that describe both the figure of the woman, and the flag itself.

The typeface is an aesthetic copout imho. In fact, both the type at the top, and the descending strokes both feel like they didn't have the same amount of attention that was paid to the rest of the image.

The face is a small part of the image, but if this was to be used any larger, it would need some more love and refinement.

Conceptually, this is an impressive piece of work.

[hanzo]

This is actually very funny xmb...

HOW DOSE AMARICA COVER IT'S WEMAN? :shame:

the very idea cracks me up...:applause:
I CAN SEE IT NOW A BLANKET OF BOMBS COVERING OVER ALL PORE IRAKY WEMAN...

sorry about any flame war I could cause
and don't try to pull any of that anti Amarican
bull shit on me, my fathers Amarican,

I just had to get that out, Because

BUSH IS SOOO INOCENT AND LOVING AND GOD ON his/OUR SIDE etc, etc bla bla bla...

[JasonA]

Originally posted by chk
...I can't believe it hasn't been mentioned yet, but the descending strokes (blood) are WAY too long. Annoyingly so. Plus the fact that there are only 2 of these extra long strokes unbalances the entire graphic...
I almost thought that at first too... from a pure design/composition point of view that might be true... but then I thought how interesting it was that in a way in illustrates the mood and feeling behind the picture itself...it makes me feel something that I suspect the artist is feeling with respect to the subject matter. then I thought that it was in fact quite clever. it captures multiple things without having to say words.

and are those streaks blood, or oil? :buttrock:

[chk]

I almost thought that at first too... from a pure design/composition point of view that might be true...
I stand by the crit, but I am very much a product of a print design background. This graphic currently works only within the context of a screen, as it benefits from a double border and then an infinite boundary. Print this on an extra long sheet and trim, and it would look even more unbalanced than it does now, and even now the entire graphic won't fit within a browser window.

[hanzo]

ow man I don't know how to take this peace...

hmm, this makes it great!
realy very puzzling...

[xmb]

thank you all...

to chk: the regular piece is only within the white space/ boarders. the extra-long "stripes" (blood or oil, whatever you want it to be...) was made only for cgtalk.

i'm glad it makes you think, something else than the usual 3d troll-robot-stuff. no offence...

[STRAT]

um

[rollmops]

TRUE!

[dbach]

Excellent, awsome work. And one that will inspire powerfull feelings. I love it.


Out,
Don

[Cyn]

I think it is an excellent thought provoking image and statement. Could just be me but it looks like an american flag wrapped around an Iraqi woman and those lines are drilling in beneath her, like it's representing a hidden agenda. Anyways just what it appears to be to me! :)

EDIT: typing at 2AM = bad news for spelling

[Incitatus]

lol artists making political statements.
As a student of politics and an amateur artist I can say there is absolutely nothing worse or less naive.

Anyway the image does have a certain je ne sais quoi.

Even if the view is overly simplistic and uninformed, anyway...
I'll stop now before it gets nasty :)

On a purely graphical note (forgetting politics totally) It reminds me of the style of Nazi images and graphics, which were extremely well designed

[xmb]

hehe...

actually i find it worse doing 3d trolls and pseudo futuristic spacecraft/ robots than something to think about, even if it's naive too in some way.
but in this case i dont know why "naive".

why i did it is because i felt sad about this young woman who lost it's child during a hard "alliance"-fire on a bus with innocent people. they eliminated a whole family and she, the only survivor (i think) kept some part's of her torn-up child in her arms, while she was forced to leave the bus.

[colt]

I like it. Clean and effectiv style. And I understand your feelings. It's a sick sad world.
But that typo is really strange, imho. I would change it.

[Incitatus]

Originally posted by xmb
hehe...

actually i find it worse doing 3d trolls and pseudo futuristic spacecraft/ robots than something to think about, even if it's naive too in some way.
but in this case i dont know why "naive".

why i did it is because i felt sad about this young woman who lost it's child during a hard "alliance"-fire on a bus with innocent people. they eliminated a whole family and she, the only survivor (i think) kept some part's of her torn-up child in her arms, while she was forced to leave the bus.

Well read 'naive' as 'simplistic'.

Well that is a sentiment worthy of a good image but I don't think you can blame the US for that as you seem to do. It could be more a lament on the tragedies of war in general.
And the tragedie that it is some times forced upon us by simply evil people that have no regard for human life.

But I agree 3d trolls and 'mechs' are worse :annoyed:

[Agent D]

Ok... I'm only going to respond once, as this thread is headed for trouble, and I'm not going to get tangled up in it.

The artwork is good, but the warping of the flag is almost too obviously an effect (Or maybe it just appears so). I think you could get a more realistic look out of it, and make it appear to be draped cloth. I agree with Incitatus about the style, it does look like a WWII propaganda poster, which you probably intended.

On the polical side...
Well, I'm just going to say that in my opinion it's very shallow, and not really thought provoking. That should really be an Iraqi flag, or one of the many posters of Saddam Hussein, but you're entitled to your own opinions and beliefs.
[Truck incident remark edited with new information. Now it's looking like a miscommunication between the troops and civilians. Still very unfortunate.]


Sorry to get political, and probably fan the fire, but not all artwork is meant to be appreciated in a purely aesthetic way, and must be responded to in kind.

[xmb]

we quickly forget about particular lives in such tragedies...
from a perspective of this young woman, what do you think she thinks about usa and its "operation free oil for usa", i mean "operation iraqi freedom"?
that's how/ why i created it.

i'm glad we can share opinions here... it's not all just about "i love your stuff and you're nice guy, bla..." discussions are inspirative.

[typeA]

whos placeing bets on when this one gets locked.....

[xmb]

why locked? every individual is free to contribute, or not...
is this democracy? then we should be able to decide ourself.

[AndreKling]

This is a very nice piece, and in memory of the victim I will shut up now.......

[Per-Anders]

nice image, well executed, though i'm not sure about the overall balance (i mean even without the drips going off the canvas which is actually i think a really cool idea).

as for the politics, don't ask for freedom of speech if you're not willing to listen or consider, freedom of speech means respecting the views of others no matter how inflamatory they may be to yourself or others. personally i don't count myself as naive enough to believe in freedom of speech as i actually do have convictions, morals (hey i know some would have you believe it's immoral to have morals these days... most amusing) and beliefs, one of which is that i would respect the mods and please keep cgtalk a propoganda free zone.

[Hydra]

I like this one very much... very artistic and clean. I only find the name "iraq" kind of provoking (with connection with the flag/cloth women had to wear whatever they were called)...

:surprised says many things this peice..

[Howzat]

Originally posted by Incitatus
lol artists making political statements.
As a student of politics and an amateur artist I can say there is absolutely nothing worse or less naive.

Anyway the image does have a certain je ne sais quoi.

Even if the view is overly simplistic and uninformed, anyway...
I'll stop now before it gets nasty :)


I'm impressed xmb didn't have a go at you about your post, it's a credit to him. It sounds incredibly arrogant to me. "Absolutely nothing worse" than an artist whose level of naivety you have no idea about, commenting on an important subject... nothing worse you reckon? I wish I lived in your world...

Edit: I forgot to mention that I thought it's a great piece :beer:

[MrWyatt]

wow. :eek:

[Darkchild]

Originally posted by Incitatus
lol artists making political statements.
As a student of politics and an amateur artist I can say there is absolutely nothing worse or less naive.

Anyway the image does have a certain je ne sais quoi.

Even if the view is overly simplistic and uninformed, anyway...
I'll stop now before it gets nasty :)

On a purely graphical note (forgetting politics totally) It reminds me of the style of Nazi images and graphics, which were extremely well designed

Who cares if you are a student of politics. everyone is entitled to their opinion and this is an ART forum.

By the way nice piece xmb.

[xynaria]

Originally posted by Incitatus
lol artists making political statements.
As a student of politics and an amateur artist I can say there is absolutely nothing worse or less naive.



Got to be one of the most arrogant and idiotic staements ever issued from a mouth. and I'm sure Goya, Picasso etc etc would bow to your truly gifted insightfulness.

I would think that if a debate on *cough* politics and art is desired to be continued it is done so out of xmb's thread and in a new thread elsewhere. :)


5 stars from me xmb for rattling some dodgy cages. :)

[JasonA]

Originally posted by Incitatus
lol artists making political statements.
As a student of politics and an amateur artist I can say there is absolutely nothing worse or less naive.
Obviously you have no concept of art history, for if you did, you would know that a majority of art works including renown masterworks throughout modern civilization were based on political/social/economic conditions of the times they were created in.

talk about over simplified and uniformed opinions...:rolleyes:

[Tommi]

Thanks JasonA for enlightening the politics student. I just wanted to type the same. Well, heck - I'll double at least the rolleyes :rolleyes:

[PHILL_JAMES2000]

very nice, clean piece :thumbsup: Reminds me of Russian posters and artwork, not sure what the style was called but a friend of mine studied it for a history paper at uni, and that style was used before WW2 and before Nazis..

..as for politics and art, what about Picasso's 'Guernica'?

[Remi]

Ahhhhhh......a lack of knowledge...mind you....not a lack of intelligence....I like the art and I look at it in a positive light....I'm going to stop there...:shrug:

[Hamsterhead]

I love this peice, its the only peice I have been aware of a clear way of leading you, my eyes were drawn downwards to the end, dont care about the politics, looks good

[GRMac13]

Very well designed piece. I love the way you offset the square shapes with the curves of the woman at the top. I think the font fits well, it connects the word "Iraq" with the blocky "drips." Nice color choices as well, I agree it has a WWII-era look to it, or Soviet even.

About the politics, what can you say? Freedom of speech is a wonderful concept. Maybe your next piece should be about an unfortunate Iraqi who speaks out against Saddam Hussein. You'd have to include a pliers, a knife and a tongue. I'll leave the rest to your imagination.

Good work. :thumbsup:

[Milho]

This is a great, clean piece. And it made me think. That's all I have to say. Everybody should have the right to think his part :shrug:

[Jabo]

Very very nice piece, quite expressive. And I like the expression. Too bad that nobody in the US-government reacts on the demonstrations, so my appearence at one of the latter was not enough. And I quit with a word that I read on a banner today:

Stop The Bush-Fire!


My 1239 cents...

[hanzo]

Originally posted by Incitatus
lol artists making political statements.
As a student of politics and an amateur artist I can say there is absolutely nothing worse or less naive.

I can't believe you said that.. what the hell are you doing in this forum? an artist feeds off of past, present and possible future conditions, Simply put it is bombs on babies, :annoyed: "naive" isn't the word
in my opinion we don't hide behind political excuses, whats wrong is wrong, I think we got plain moral superiority.. who are you to call that stupid! :shame:

[Remi]

Just enjoy the artwork...i'm sure we all have something to say in this matter....:shrug:

[ThirdEye]

Originally posted by Remi
Just enjoy the artwork...i'm sure we all have something to say in this matter....:shrug:


I agree with you Remi, we should think more about the artistical part of this work. BTW i like it, i like both the ethical and the artistical sides of that. :thumbsup:

[Prisoner]

Originally posted by Incitatus
lol artists making political statements.
As a student of politics and an amateur artist I can say there is absolutely nothing worse or less naive.

If an artist can't make a political statement, a politics student can't criticize art.:shame:

[DZL]

Originally posted by xmb
why locked? every individual is free to contribute, or not...
is this democracy? then we should be able to decide ourself.

how ironic. i guess 'every individual' doesn't include iraqi's. maybe we should all turn away and ignore the mass genocide and atrocities that occur under saddam hussein's regime.

i found your comment about the war being for oil extremely offensive. if we had wanted the oil, we would've taken it in '91 - and that's the bottom line.

i have friends over their fighting, for my - and everyone's else's - security... putting their lives on the line EVERY DAY.

[Witchy]

North Korea. China, Syria. Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Syria etc etc etc.

Human rights enforcement in those countries please. Everyone deserves an equal chance at such altruism after all.

The art is OK, it is fairly iconic, and I assume the intention was to take that political art style used by Fascists and Communists alike and do something with it. Whether it says anything true about the war depends on your views on the war rather than the art itself however, imho.

[Howzat]

Guys don't start this debate here please...

[robinson]

Originally posted by mattconway
how ironic. i guess 'every individual' doesn't include iraqi's. maybe we should all turn away and ignore the mass genocide and atrocities that occur under saddam hussein's regime.

i found your comment about the war being for oil extremely offensive. if we had wanted the oil, we would've taken it in '91 - and that's the bottom line.

i have friends over their fighting, for my - and everyone's else's - security... putting their lives on the line EVERY DAY.

If you want to meet me somewhere on a political forum, send me a message, I would say thats enough for a cg forum !!!
:annoyed:

[bowman]

Originally posted by Witchy
North Korea. China, Syria. Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Syria etc etc etc.

Human rights enforcement in those countries please. Everyone deserves an equal chance at such altruism after all.



Gotta start somewhere.

[GRMac13]

This thread will be closed/locked in 5...4...3...2...

[hanzo]

mattconway I don't think many of us are anti American (haha!).
but I don't think Bush is good for this planets health..

When Bush goes down his list with all us innocent suckers supporting him, he will leave much hate behind to brood, this hate will take our freedoms and the world's freedoms away..

After Bush is done, we won't be able to go to Europe, Asia, or the Middle East, there will be much bigger threats to American lives...
"the big threat!"

Do you know what path Bush is putting us on?
In my opionion we are all going to regret this man.

[robinson]

Originally posted by hanzo

After Bush is done, we won't be able to go to Europe, Asia, or the Middle East, there will be much bigger threats to American lives...
"the big threat!"

Do you know what path Bush is putting us on?
In my opionion we are all going to regret this man.

You can visit me every time in the old europe, it is just your goverment I don't want to see here !!! :rolleyes:

Again lets go to a political forum if you want to discuss this stuff !!!
:thumbsdow :thumbsdow :thumbsdow

[hanzo]

Thanks man..I'm glad to here it!
:annoyed:.....you know what I ment! be realistic..

[robinson]

Originally posted by hanzo
:annoyed: man.....you know what I ment! be realistic..

yes, i know !!! But still, stop it....
Lets meet on a political forum if you know one, or send private mails, but not here..... :annoyed:

[fawazr]

wow... that's really tasteful and respectful of you all not to sully this artist's post with political tangents and personal convictions. That shows a level of maturity and consideration that the community should be very proud of. I love the piece and only wish that it were followed up by a series of similar works. I'm sure that once everything is said and done in Iraq, you'll have more than enough to work with. Thank you for sharing this, xmb. :thumbsup:

[GRMac13]

Originally posted by Merkry
wow... that's really tasteful and respectful of you all not to sully this artist's post with political tangents and personal convictions. That shows a level of maturity and consideration that the community should be very proud of. I love the piece and only wish that it were followed up by a series of similar works. I'm sure that once everything is said and done in Iraq, you'll have more than enough to work with. Thank you for sharing this, xmb. :thumbsup:

"Sully his post?" "Tasteful and respectful"? lol, are you kidding? Or are you just upset that someone holds a different opinion than you about something? You're totally missing the point.

The purpose of this piece is blatantly obvious. You can't expect to post something so politically motivated and not get some politically motivated comments. I'm sure the artist's intent was to evoke more than a simple "hey that looks pretty" response. If he wanted that, he could have ommitted the word Iraq and the American flag. Of course then, the piece loses all of it's impact and just turns into a nice graphic.

This was an apparent attempt at provoking a debate about the situtation, and it was obviously very successful. Good job xmb.

[robinson]

Yes, good job xmb…:thumbsup:

[Astral]

Awww look

all the Anti American people gathered in one place.

I think I will draw a picture of a Iraqi soldier putting a Iraqi woman through a paper shredder and have a bunch of people laughing, while holding french, german, russian flags

how about that for art :P

oh wait let me add in my infinite artistic wisdom

I will add Hitler holding the german flag, stalin the Russian and Chiroc the french



---

Tehcnical - the piece is not bad. I like the strokes and style. I have seen far worse

[robinson]

Originally posted by Astral
Awww look

all the Anti American people gathered in one place.

I think I will draw a picture of a Iraqi soldier putting a Iraqi woman through a paper shredder and have a bunch of people laughing, while holding french, german, russian flags

how about that for art :P
what the f***, where are the anti american people here ? :mad:

[Astral]

Originally posted by robinson
what the f***, where are the anti american people here ? :mad:

If it does not apply to you then do not sweat it. Anytime you use a flag you represent a nation.

[GRMac13]

Originally posted by Astral
Awww look

all the Anti American people gathered in one place.

I think I will draw a picture of a Iraqi soldier putting a Iraqi woman through a paper shredder and have a bunch of people laughing, while holding french, german, russian flags

how about that for art :P

Dude, I'm far from anti-American, it disturbs me that so many people have a negative opinion of my country. If anything, it's anti-American to try to stop someone from expressing their thoughts and opinions. Isn't that what this country is all about? Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of fill-in-the-blank. I may not agree with xmb's statement, but I admire his courage, and I think that he executed the idea well.

I say go ahead and make that picture you described. Nobody is stopping you, you live in a free country. Take advantage of it while you can, because there are alot of people in the world who would love to take that freedom away from you (along with all the others).

Peace.

[Astral]

Originally posted by GRMac13
Dude, I'm far from anti-American, it disturbs me that so many people have a negative opinion of my country. If anything, it's anti-American to try to stop someone from expressing their thoughts and opinions. Isn't that what this country is all about? Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of fill-in-the-blank. I may not agree with xmb's statement, but I admire his courage, and I think that he executed the idea well.

I say go ahead and make that picture you described. Nobody is stopping you, you live in a free country. Take advantage of it while you can, because there are alot of people in the world who would love to take that freedom away from you (along with all the others).

Peace.

The same freedom of speech you talk about is the same freedom of speech I am using. I did not say he could not make it.

I just might make that picture.

[GRMac13]

Originally posted by Astral
The same freedom of speech you talk about is the same freedom of speech I am using. I did not say he could not make it.

I just might make that picture.

Go ahead, I'm looking forward to it. Maybe a more positive piece would be one concerning the Iraqi people living in a society free from opression, where they can express their thoughts and opinions without the fear of violent retribution. Just an idea. Though you'll still likely encountered plenty of anti-American comments. :shrug:

[Astral]

That would not be provocative as say painting Chiroc holding his now defunct oil contract with Sadam

[zoomking]

Great work,
underdog always populace that include Iraqi and American:) :hmm:

[Witchy]

You could paint the CIA funding Osama Bin Laden- that would be an interesting image.

[xynaria]

I'm not trying to widen this debate.. that as others agree is probably best for other forums...... but to be anti Bush is not De Facto anti-American and it is somewhat bizarre to be seen as such. I know lots of Americans who are appalled at Mr Dublya and his actions but they do not in anyway consider themselves as anti American.. remember the amount of people that actually voted for him wasn't exactly huge was it and it is highly unlikely that under another administration that this 'war' would be taking place. :)

[GRMac13]

Originally posted by Astral
That would not be provocative as say painting Chiroc holding his now defunct oil contract with Sadam

True. I'd love to see something done in reference to France's constant attempts at keeping the Ba'ath party in power. It seems that part of it is still being drastically overlooked.

[GRMac13]

Originally posted by Witchy
You could paint the CIA funding Osama Bin Laden- that would be an interesting image.

Interesting, yet extremely innaccurate. Unless you dated it for 1986. Even then, it'd be irrelevant now considering they were training him and his people to defeat the Soviet army who was trying to invade Afghanistan, not funding his terroristic acts. Hindsight is always 20/20, uh?

Maybe paint Chirac selling Saddam a nuclear plant, that'd be intriguing...

[BiTMAP]

Originally posted by xynaria
..." and it is highly unlikely that under another administration that this 'war' would be taking place. :) "

Only becuase the other administration ignored all of that and tried "peace process" after money wasteing Peace Process.

[DZL]

Originally posted by xynaria
I'm not trying to widen this debate.. that as others agree is probably best for other forums...... but to be anti Bush is not De Facto anti-American and it is somewhat bizarre to be seen as such. I know lots of Americans who are appalled at Mr Dublya and his actions but they do not in anyway consider themselves as anti American.. remember the amount of people that actually voted for him wasn't exactly huge was it and it is highly unlikely that under another administration that this 'war' would be taking place. :)

i disagree. in a time of war, the rules change. to be openly critical of the president (and commander-in-chief of the armed forces) DURING a war, is uncalled for.

by your remarks, i can't help but think that you're against this just because you don't like bush. shame on you. maybe, just maybe he knows more than you do about this. to make this political sickens me. this is about removing a tyrant, a murderer, a terrorist - and to free the people of iraq.

and, by the way, the latest polls say 78% of americans are behind the liberation of iraq. i'm grateful there are people that maybe didn't vote for bush but still realize that this needs to be done to ensure our security and freedom of the iraqi people.

[jamihn]

no opinions on the war from me. I avoided this thread because I tought it was going to degrade into a flame war, but the image is wonderful. I find it a very good example of visual communication and excellent design. Thank you for posting it.

okay, back to the debate.

[xynaria]

Originally posted by BiTMAP
Only becuase the other administration ignored all of that and tried "peace process" after money wasteing Peace Process.


Personally I find that a somewhat simplistic arguement, however my point was made and as I said .. that debate will only close the thread down.


Originally posted by mattconway
i disagree. in a time of war, the rules change. to be openly critical of the president (and commander-in-chief of the armed forces) DURING a war, is uncalled for.

by your remarks, i can't help but think that you're against this just because you don't like bush. shame on you. maybe, just maybe he knows more than you do about this. to make this political sickens me. this is about removing a tyrant, a murderer, a terrorist - and to free the people of iraq.

and, by the way, the latest polls say 78% of americans are behind the liberation of iraq. i'm grateful there are people that maybe didn't vote for bush but still realize that this needs to be done to ensure our security and freedom of the iraqi people.


Scuse me but that is just utter garbage.. only tyrants oppose criticism right? land of the free right? free speech right???
I may not like Bush .. why I wonder?? perhaps it might have something to do with his vile appropiation of other peoples misery to his own and his cronies ends and this war and what follows is only in small part about merely oil as events will show. Only the fatally optimistic can believe it has anything to do with opposing a tyrant.
Anyway as I keep saying that debate will only close this thread down, and it might also be pertinent for you to consider whether it is in your or anyone else's interest to think you have some right to tell people how to behave or what to think. :)

[MrWyatt]

to all my fellow americans in this thread.

1. I´m american and lived all my life in germany

2. I know nobody (and I know a lot) who is anti american around here

3. I´ve never been threatened by anybody for the bullylike behaviour of our president and his buddys.

4. I´m happy here , and what ever FOX News tries to tell you over there in the USA. Don´t believe it.

5. No , nobody sits in my back, holding a gun at my head while I type this. actually there are only very few guns in the homes of civilians here in europe.

only, wanted to give my personal feelings about the so called anti-americanism here in Germany. to say it clear: "THERE IS NO SUCH THING"

trust me on this.

:shrug:

Peace

[BiTMAP]

hmm I just thought, If they start another war after this, I think alot of people will be quite pissed, this war I don't like war, but I support this one becuae its fixing thar mistake... but anything else they go against would really be cuaeing me to be qwuite annoyed.

[hanzo]

GRMac13: actually Osama Bin Laden and his CIA trained soldiers played little part in actually pushing the Russians out... makes me wonder...?

mattconway: have you forgotten (or maybe you hadn't seen) some of the problems we could have any day now is because of presidents like Bush, will you deny this like some politition? no my friend shame on you...:shame:

BiTMAP: don't be naive (lol) war only leads to hate, and hate = terror very simple! Bush makes people hate, hate ends up in Americas lap, and I doubt if Bush will really feel any, of any big pinch...:annoyed:

[GRMac13]

Originally posted by hanzo
GRMac13: actually Osama Bin Laden and his CIA trained soldiers played little part in actually pushing the Russians out... makes me wonder...?

That statement makes me wonder where you get your information. The Russians suffered many casualties due to the resistance of bin Laden's so-called "mujahedin" fighters. They used CIA-supplied Stinger missiles to shoot down numerous Soviet aircraft. Afghanistan turned into Russia's version of Vietnam. Anyway, it's all irrelevant now anyway. That was nearly 20 years ago, and as we know bin Laden has pledged his jihad on America. I wish he and his cronies we as ineffectual as you seem to think they are.

Originally posted by hanzo
BiTMAP: don't be naive (lol) war only leads to hate, and hate = terror very simple! Bush makes people hate, hate ends up in Americas lap, and I doubt if Bush will really feel any, of any big pinch...:annoyed:

Now who's being naive? Is it really as simple as you say?War, although not always the answer, also does not always lead to hate, and fighting a war is not always the worst case scenario. If your little equation was correct, then the US would have to deal with terrorism from every major country in the world. I mean, do the Germans and the Jews hate us for liberating them from Hitler (we know the French do, but that's beside the point ;) ). Do the Japanese hate us for defeating them in WWII? Do the British hate us for defeating them in the Revolutionary War? Obviously these are all cases where war lead to better things than complacency would have. Of course this is not always the case, but maybe you have a better solution? Maybe we should have let Hitler keep Poland?

[malkavian2003]

This thread needs to be deleted and the picture needs to stay. Critique the "art" not the message. I believe these forums are for Computer Graphics. Not political pissing contests.

[lildragon]

WE really need to get that policy live. Sorry thread closed

salud