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Visor66
08-25-2007, 08:14 PM
hey guys,

I would like to get more into fur rendering at the moment as I have some character that I want to apply hair onto. I dont have much experience in rendering fur, so I would be very interested to hear how you guys render out fur in maya. I usually render my stuff with mental ray, often with FG or GI enabled. I know that there is some possibility to render fur as MR Hair Primitives, but so far I couldnt get the quality as with the native Maya renderer. So, how would you render out characters with fur? Render both, character and fur with different renderers and comb it together? How do you achieve constant lighting and shadows between your Mental Ray render and your Maya Software Fur render? Or would you render everything with Mental Ray, do you have any tips to render high quality fur with Mental Ray? I also have access to Shave and a haircut for Maya, would you recommend using it? Any tips on how to render with shave to get good constant results?

I would be really happy to hear about the way you deal with those problems! I hope someone can give me some advice!

Thanks in andvance

drossxyu
08-27-2007, 05:32 AM
I highly recommend using Shave and a Haircut as opposed to Maya Fur. I've used Maya Fur in production several times and it's incredibly buggy and unpredictable. I had contacted Alias several times about reoccuring problems with Maya Fur and it was never resolved.

So my advice is get Shave and a Haircut and get the digital tutors training dvd. That'll give you a good start.

Visor66
09-20-2007, 10:05 PM
hey guys,

I spend the last days, if not weeks to get a good Hair/Fur Workflow with Shave and Mental Ray. Well, it was a hard time, but I managed it to get along with shave and Mental Ray much better, but I still have some headaches and problems to solve and I would LOVE it if someone could help me a little! I found out that when rendering with Mental Ray, the best way is to use the Rasterizer and Detail Shadow Maps on my lights. This renders out the hair nice and fast. But I also have some other problems:

I do have a head, low geometry where I painted the Displacements in ZBrush! So in Maya, I have the low-poly head and now I want to attach some hair on it! Well, Shave has the Displacement feature, so I attach my Displacement Map so the hair renders at the right "position"! Everythings fine. So, I have no problems to render my displaced head and a seperate hair pass! But now I would like to get a shadow pass, the shadow that the hair casts onto my displaced head! Well, the buffer option doesnt seem to get me the shadow pass with Mental Ray, it works fine with the Maya Software Render, but not Mental Ray, which is no good because with Maya I dont get my displacements. So I tried ctrl.fur and attached a Blinn Shader to my hair and made it transparent and used a "Use Background" Shader on my displaced head! So far, I coulnd manage to render it out, it takes ages and I dont know why.

Well, thats where my knowledge now ends and I really need a hint from someone who has experience with using fur, rendering with Mental Ray on displaced geometry! ANY Tip would be really much appreciated! I really hope someone is willing to help.

Thanks

jupiterjazz
09-20-2007, 10:57 PM
Well, thats where my knowledge now ends and I really need a hint from someone who has experience with using fur, rendering with Mental Ray on displaced geometry! ANY Tip would be really much appreciated! I really hope someone is willing to help.
Thanks

I have a lot of production experience with it, 2K plates for feature film, full cg character, to be integrated in live action.

We tried using maya+shave+mental ray in our pipeline.
After in depth tests we soon switched to maya+shave+3delight where:

- displacement and fur are super fast and perfectly aliased
- you get yours shadow pass and any other pass you need
- you can use filtered deep shadows
- you can render your poly meshes as SDS and use displacement at a fraction of the time

We went from 40 minutes to less than two minutes per frame, with 6 passes (including shadows) generated in one go.
And it looks another world.

If you want more details feel free to PM or mail me.

p

Visor66
09-20-2007, 11:15 PM
Hi Paolo,

thanks for your answer and btw also for all your mental Ray help to the community! I follow your stuff for a long time now and learned much from you, thanks for that!

Yeah, I read a lot about 3Delight the last days, especially from you, following the other threads here! The main reason I didnt had a look on Renderman or compliant renderes like 3Delight, is the fact that Im not a programmer and I really like to use the Mental Ray shaders and so far, I cant imagine to have access to those kind of shaders with a Renderman compliant renderer, at least without being a programmer! Or would you say its easy to setup and render stuff like hair, displacements or SSS...would be interesting to know. Also read about your upcoming 3Delight article...really looking forward to it!

I actually cant send you a PM or Mail, otherwise I would have tried it! I hope you read that and drop me a line or give me some advice eventually switching to 3Delight to render fur! You can also PM me if you want!

Again, thanks for your help!

Pascal

jupiterjazz
09-21-2007, 08:19 AM
Hi Paolo,

thanks for your answer and btw also for all your mental Ray help to the community! I follow your stuff for a long time now and learned much from you, thanks for that!


Thanks dude.


Yeah, I read a lot about 3Delight the last days, especially from you, following the other threads here! The main reason I didnt had a look on Renderman or compliant renderes like 3Delight, is the fact that Im not a programmer and I really like to use the Mental Ray shaders and so far, I cant imagine to have access to those kind of shaders with a Renderman compliant renderer, at least without being a programmer!


Understandable.


Or would you say its easy to setup and render stuff like hair, displacements or SSS...would be interesting to know.


Yes, very compared to mental ray.
I am preping a full set of tutorials with shaders.
Stay tuned.


Also read about your upcoming 3Delight article...really looking forward to it!


;)


I actually cant send you a PM or Mail, otherwise I would have tried it! I hope you read that and drop me a line or give me some advice eventually switching to 3Delight to render fur! You can also PM me if you want!
Again, thanks for your help!
Pascal

no probs.
mail here: info <at> jupiter-jazz (dot) com

p

reptil
09-21-2007, 10:19 AM
Thanks dude.
Yes, very compared to mental ray.
I am preping a full set of tutorials with shaders.
Stay tuned.
p

:scream: great ! i discover 3delight after your advises from the other post and it's a very great experience globaly it's very simple to configure ie you need occlusion : attrib the occlight to the one light and you have occlusion with any shader it's very very good workflow ! you can have then occlusion in reflection, with bump and displacement without making a spider node in the hypershade with a lot of customs shaders like mentalray workflow.i love that!
now yes you need to program shader if you want specific shader it's the under the wood of renderman for me :shrug:
i need to learn SL i know but it's not easy .

your help with renderman like you did it with mental will be fantastic for beginners !
nice to see man like you helping noobs guys !!

ps i want to testing gi or fg or both with 3delight and i can't see where to begin if you know an easy way please

mthemelis
09-21-2007, 10:42 AM
hi,

as i can see this thread tends to become a mr to rman transition thread!!

i have also tried 3delight for the last month and i can tell you that it does all the top class features a lot faster than mr.

In case of fur rendering it's super fast....but unfortunately my version (6.5) only supports fur on nurbs and NOT polygons.

displacements, occlusion, motion blur and the other usefull toys are also faster than mr, BUT there are not free available shaders (like MIA-MAT) for arch viz work or better with control of BRDF and so on.

Perhaps Master Zap can provide the whole community with such powerful stuff oneday!!!(like the occ shader mentioned in the 3delight forums).

Maxwell render made a hit in the archviz industry not because of it's top class features but due to the facts:

1. easy render setup (ok we can adjust it in rman renderers)
2. material libraries (nothing on the whole internet for rman and this HURTS)
3. lighting (very buggy especially ags and glass)

If only companies provided us with great shaders (some free and the others at reasonable prices) they could enter a whole new market....

i can't understand why they don't. Both sides would benefit

thanks,
mike

particlefx
09-24-2007, 07:47 AM
Hi..guys
I am using maya 8.5 and shave and haircut 4.5.
I need to use 3delight to render fur using shave and haircut.
I got 3delight for maya(I dont have any knowledge of renderman)
so anybody can explain the basic workflow for rendering fur using 3delight....

thnks in advance
prakash.K

jupiterjazz
09-24-2007, 12:31 PM
Hi..guys
I am using maya 8.5 and shave and haircut 4.5.
I need to use 3delight to render fur using shave and haircut.
I got 3delight for maya(I dont have any knowledge of renderman)
so anybody can explain the basic workflow for rendering fur using 3delight....

thnks in advance
prakash.K


I'm writing some tutorials, including what you're after.

Super briefly:

- in the renderpass Pre Render MEL scripts put:

shaveWriteRib "test.rib";

- attach a delightGeoAttrib node to the shaveDisplayShape node, and always in the delightGeoAttribs you need to set a Pre Geometry MEL binding:

RiReadArchive -an "test.rib"

- attach a shader to your fur
You can use any shader here, but you should use one specific for hair shading (there is a lot of research out there, the basic model is the kajiya-kay).
So if you want you can use the one shipped with Shave (that is made on purpose to mimic same behaviour of Shave renders) you should compile shave.sl with 'renderdl' (the 3delight renderman shader compiler, note that compilation is easy since it's using a Virtual Machine, that's the beauty of RSL!), so run from the shell a:

shaderdl shave.sl

you will get then a shave.sdl compiled shader to load with the shader manager and assign to the shaveDisplayShape.

Then you can render.

- you can finally feel free to set higher antialiasing (6 6 or even 7 7, don't worry it's renderman :) ), sinc filter, deep shadows on your lights, displacement wherever you like, poly2sds conversion, multiple render passes and 3D motion blur.

You can render in this configuration millions of hairs, perfectly, at film res, and at renderman speed.


BTW I just noticed Joe is shipping a nicer shave.sl that supports self shadowing which should allow decent looks even without custom shading writing.


Have fun!

P

Visor66
09-24-2007, 02:47 PM
you, my friend, are my personal hero of the day.......again! ;)

Thanks so much! It feels so good to be able to render fur so easily! Here some example furball just for your pleasure:

http://www.floerks.de/furball1.jpg

the only thing I now need is a shadow pass, the shadow that will eventually fall from the hair onto my pre-rendered head! Is there a "Use-Background" shader or similar for 3Delight?

Again, thanks! Your help is priceless! And thanks for the mail ;)

jupiterjazz
09-24-2007, 03:40 PM
you, my friend, are my personal hero of the day.......again! ;)

Thanks so much! It feels so good to be able to render fur so easily! Here some example furball just for your pleasure:

the only thing I now need is a shadow pass, the shadow that will eventually fall from the hair onto my pre-rendered head! Is there a "Use-Background" shader or similar for 3Delight?

Again, thanks! Your help is priceless! And thanks for the mail ;)

...well thanks man ;)
Note that in the very near future this workflow will be all automatic, can't say more ;)

As per the shadow pass, of course yu can.
I can't remember if in 3Deight 6.5.0 it's in the UI.
Check under secondary images> display AOV> shadow in the renderpass.
The name of the variable is RSL is aov_shadow.
If it's not in that version, then if you buy support and you get access to the client updates.
Or just wait for 3Delight for Maya 7.0 which is due soon.

Also note that there is the official 3delight's forum here:

http://www.3delight.com/en/modules/PunBB/

Visor66
09-24-2007, 03:52 PM
thanks Paolo!

I will check it out! Cant wait for the future... :)

And for the forum...well, you answered me there too! ;)


Visor

particlefx
09-25-2007, 06:34 AM
Thank u paolo...
The tutorials is very helpfull
now i renderd the shave with 3delight....

particlefx
09-25-2007, 12:06 PM
Hi guys..
I rendered the shave fur with 3delight it rendered fine without shadow.
Then i tried rendering shadow maps,the map is created in the specified directory.
But how can i composite both the fur and the shadowmap.(How can i convert the shadow map to required format to use with the compositing software like shake).



thanks in advance
prakash.K

mthemelis
09-25-2007, 12:59 PM
...well thanks man ;)
Note that in the very near future this workflow will be all automatic, can't say more ;)

As per the shadow pass, of course yu can.
I can't remember if in 3Deight 6.5.0 it's in the UI.
Check under secondary images> display AOV> shadow in the renderpass.
The name of the variable is RSL is aov_shadow.
If it's not in that version, then if you buy support and you get access to the client updates.
Or just wait for 3Delight for Maya 7.0 which is due soon.

Also note that there is the official 3delight's forum here:

http://www.3delight.com/en/modules/PunBB/

hi,

Is there an inside info about fur on polys?
thanks, in advance
mike

jupiterjazz
09-25-2007, 01:13 PM
hi,

Is there an inside info about fur on polys?
thanks, in advance
mike

Yes. It was added just after the public release 6.5.0, if you are under support you can access to to several product updates.

You can ask also in the 3delight forum.

p

mthemelis
09-25-2007, 05:24 PM
:) I will be in the 3delight update list from next monday morning!

i am totally satisfied with it.

i tried to FINE displace a texture in an already heavy scene with mr and of course never rendered...

it was about 6m tris (plus 10m retesselated) with fg gi and about 3k image size.

pc specs 2X 5345 - 4gb ram

Guess what! 3delight rendered it perfectly with ONLY 2 THREADS that my current license allows....

thank you PBerto for all your kind advice AND your valuable stuff! :thumbsup:
(sorry for confusing the name! i was replying to another thread and we all know what happens if we get messed with render settings!)
mike

mental
09-25-2007, 08:16 PM
thank you Zap for all your kind advice AND your valuable stuff! :thumbsup:

mike
Ohh... what a kick in the pants :D

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