City be the sea matte

[SEDiT]

nice..but der r some mistakes..
1st) y does mountains in the mid n background full foggy.. the foreground mountain has nice sunlight on it but after dat everything is foggy..

2nd)... in dat supporting pillar of the pyramid building.. the texture looks like repeated...

3rd).. the buildings in the background looks like a painting..giv it some hard lines..wot is happening der is its all merging nd doesnt look clear..

4th) the rocks on third mountain in the background doesnt look proper..it looks as if u hav croped some image nd placed it der.. the rock is getting sun light nd the mountain is all foggy..

5th).. try to give some reflections of the mountain on the water.. u wil be able to c atleast a little reflections of mountain..

6th) work on the shadows nd lighting of the buildings..

if u r not using a pen tablet, i advise u to use it.. alllll the best..

[Photoshopped]

Hi SEDiT, thanks for taking the time to reply and add comments. Below are my replied to your suggestions.

nice..but der r some mistakes..
1st) y does mountains in the mid n background full foggy.. the foreground mountain has nice sunlight on it but after dat everything is foggy..

REPLY:
I can understand how this may seem, but the background elements are suppost to be like that to represent the distance. Objects and especially buildings in the far distance loose both saturation and clarity due to atmospheric perspective. I think I need to look at reworking the sence of scale and distance instead.

2nd)... in dat supporting pillar of the pyramid building.. the texture looks like repeated...

REPLY:
Yeah, I did intend to repeat the texture as it is suppost to be a metal which would be the same throughout really. However, I am going to considerably change the whole pyramid when I get chance as it really doesn't work as well as it needs to. Thanks.

3rd).. the buildings in the background looks like a painting..giv it some hard lines..wot is happening der is its all merging nd doesnt look clear..

REPLY:
Again, as with my first reply. Objects and especially buildings in the far distance will never appear clear. I too agree that they would look better if they were indeed clear, but its not realistic that way due to atmospheric perspective and lighting etc. They may appear a bit too painted at the moment though so I will have another look, thanks.

4th) the rocks on third mountain in the background doesnt look proper..it looks as if u hav croped some image nd placed it der.. the rock is getting sun light nd the mountain is all foggy..

REPLY:
I will correct and improve this as it did not look that bad originally but I can see it now, thanks.


5th).. try to give some reflections of the mountain on the water.. u wil be able to c atleast a little reflections of mountain..

REPLY:
Again, this would not be the case. Look at the direction of the sunlight and the angle of shadows. The sun is shining in the oposite direction to the water and therefore you would NOT get relection on the water from any of those things.

The image (mountain,sea and sky is all a high quality stock photograph from Istock. I did not make or contribute to any of this except for the far right hand side which is all cloned and extended to fill the required horizontal space needed. Therefore, the sunlight, sea and shadows on these things should already be spot on as its a photograph.


6th) work on the shadows nd lighting of the buildings..
REPLY:
Yeah, struggled a little on some shadows of the buildings due to colours and clarity. Will revisit a bit.


if u r not using a pen tablet, i advise u to use it.. alllll the best.

I use a Wacom Intuos thanks.


Thanks once again but a lot of the things you suggested would take realism away from the composition instead of improving it.

Jay

[crazybread]

Besides what Sedit said, I'll also say tha the perspective is seriously off. So much so that it makes it seem as if your structures with the bridge were going up that hill. A good thing to do here if you can't do perspective properly yet is to use a 3d program, bring in your rough painting as an image plane and move the camera a little to see and correct your perspective. Other then that its a good start. Cheers!

[Photoshopped]

Hi crazybread, yeah the perspective on the pyramid building does look off now you mention it. I was sure I had corrected that so I need to check I have uploaded the version with all the modification I had made as I am not sure now??????

I can't see any perspective issue with the rest of the image though?

Cheers,


Jay

[JJASSO]

I agree with the guys above, the perspective here is a big issue as well as black values and levels ,also within distance aereal perspective will add color , in this case cyan to the further elements , always look at real photo reference, with all the big metal structures you have there, the specular highlights would be way bigger and stronger , and would play an important role on giving detail. I feel the composition some how boring, it's just a vanishing point landscaspe , try to play with foregound or middle ground elements on the right of the image , the clouds need the shadow side as well as your assets, I agree there can´t be reflection at all on the water, I would definitly think it need a port with big cranes and futuristic ships. I hope this helps

[Photoshopped]

Well thanks for the feedback again, I will look at the points you have mentioned. I can't help but feel frustrated with your comments about the composition being boring though!
Its unhelpful and you don't even seem try to give an explanation as to why.

There are countless other mattes presented on these forums which consist of nothing much more than a front view of a field or waterfall and yet you don't see such comments about them?

This is my first attempt at painting and I obviously have a long way to go yet. However, it always makes me laugh how technical people try to be with there answers without actually stopping to think, was that helpful at all to somone new to the industry? Your comments about perspective, cyans, blacks etc??? How is that helpful when you don't explain? Whats wrong with the blacks, darker, lighter? Which areas have perspective issues (apart from the pyramid building), all of it, leftisde, rightside, background etc?

You also made comments about the clouds, these are part of the actual photograph so I don't understand what you think should be changed and why either,unless you are refering to the small area on the far right which was clones and re-painted. Again, you don't say,

I will also be adding some more structures to the far left of the composition nearest to us too, which should brake up the mountain area. I also agree the background looks a little too painted and I will rework this also.

I am not being funny or stroppy here, so please don't think I am. I take all advise seriously and only get frustrated due to the time I have spent creating these compositions. Its just if you want to help, then help. Don't say somethings boring without a just reason or explanation to actually help someone like me who has only done 4 mattes EVER. You were there once and for my first attempt at painting EVER, I don't think its a bad start!

Thanks,

Jay

[crazybread]

CHill out dude. you should be thankfull that people responded to your post. Different artists have different methods of working and different ways of looking at things. You need to sift through what people have said and determine on your own what suggestions to take and what to overlook. There isn't any one way to do things either. The way you paint will only get better, but I think you need to start with the basics. Who cares if you can texture nicely when you don't have the basic, I'm talking about this perspective here. you said:

I can't see any perspective issue with the rest of the image though?

please take a closer look for yourself, and see where your structures should lie.

http://www.nikiforuk.com/forum/seaCityShadow_persp.jpg

[JJASSO]

yeah man chill out , stop this paranoia of thinking on every critic as a direct attack to you. if you don't see any issue with perspective that 's really bad, refer to the tutorial section and start learning a lot , most of the people replying to threads, are people that really know what they are talking about .

here goes your first lesson
LISTEN (in this case read the comments and hard critics, and accept them , if there's more than 2 comments on the same issue ,believe me, then it is a real issue ) :deal: if you really want to learn just like we all did in the beggining , see other guys work , study them ,how do they get that result? perspective is the base for matte painting , once you learn it then move to color or composition etc.

[vander]

5th).. try to give some reflections of the mountain on the water

REPLY:
Again, this would not be the case. Look at the direction of the sunlight and the angle of shadows. The sun is shining in the oposite direction to the water and therefore you would NOT get relection on the water from any of those things.

Hi friend. The reflections of mountains on the water is because the angle of vision of the viewer (you, me, the camera) and not because the sunlight or angle of shadows.
A illuminated city is reflected on the water (at night), if the viewer are in a correct angle to see reflections. In fact, your image have reflections of the left mountain on the water.

mountain, city reflection
http://www.sxc.hu/photo/855646
http://www.sxc.hu/photo/855697
http://www.stockxpert.com/browse.phtml?f=view&id=446948
http://www.sxc.hu/photo/851121
http://www.sxc.hu/photo/847038
http://www.sxc.hu/photo/836757
http://www.sxc.hu/photo/828044
http://www.sxc.hu/photo/822371
http://www.sxc.hu/photo/821586
http://www.sxc.hu/photo/815905

clouds reflection
http://www.stockxpert.com/browse.phtml?f=view&id=121994
http://www.stockxpert.com/browse.phtml?f=view&id=394922

[SEDiT]

hey as every one said... chill.. i kno how it feels wen u do some work nd wen u finish it people start pointing out the mistakes... but dats how u learn... nd second thing u talked abt people being technical.. hey u r doin a matte painting nd not some painting.. matte painting are supposed to be realistic...actually supposed to be photorealistic.... nd one more thing .. if u don like to hear comments.. i don think u should be posting ur work here again... all da best..

[Rockhoppermedia]

Its not bad for a fourth attempt, it is better than what i did at your stage. Just enjoy yourself. I have not posted a matte for a while as the critiques here can get quite severe. I am at the moment sketching away when I have something to post I will post. Any how you have a good starting block.


I have learnt to do it in stages, I have not quite sorted out a workflow as yet but I think that is what helps to do a succesful matte. I agree with you about comments being vague sometimes, what i do is sit down with a piece of paper and write down the pros and cons of my matte. I look at each critique individually and write down each comment in the pros and cons. Then most importantly leave the matte alone for a couple of days then view it with fresh eyes loooking at your list. You will then notice things a lot more.

I like your idea and i would correct the following

Perspective build the buildings up to the top line slightly it will give the eye somewhere to go.

Grow the bases of the buildings into the water slightly (like a buttress tree) this will make the water/mountains/buidings feel together. They look like random elements that are together but not belonging.

Detail some items that people relate to aircraft/watercraft this will help the scale feel immense.

Atmospherics you know colour perspective I can see that how about using fog/haze on the rear buildingsto break up that line.

I have always been told never ever put a symmetrical object ie circle triangle square in a painting it kills the painting. that triangular building is to symmetrical it is killing your painting. Put a structure/chasm/pier anything to break up its shape.

I do like it and what you said you are going to do will be brilliant.

good luck your mate

Rich

PS if you want to see a bad painting have a look at any of mine it will make you feel better LOL

[nickmarshallvfx]

Crazybeard - Could you possibly explain how you worked out the perspective there? I have a lot of difficulty trying to plot perspective on a landscape with no straight lines. If you could explain how to work out perspective on a landscape it would really help me out. Thanks

Nick

[crazybread]

Hey space-sprayer.

Those lines are not correct, as I just slapped them in there to illustrate a rough vanishing point. So this is just an estimation. I usually use maya, try to find what lens the picture was taken with, replicate the camera in maya and TADA! Hey, I'll lay out rhe lines in this picture for you and show you the perspective lines when I have a little time, hopefully over the weekend sometime so you can get a better idea where the lines come from. Peace & happy painting!

cb

[nickmarshallvfx]

Thanks Crazybeard, that would be very cool. Sorry for hijacking the thread a for a moment there Photoshopped.

Nick

[Photoshopped]

Hi everyone and thanks for the feedback and help with improving this composition. Once again though I can't help but get frustrated that some peope just seem to take me the wong way here.

As I CLEARLY state in all posts, I don't mean to sound stroppy and am not actually upset or offended by any negative feedback. I just get annoyed with MYSELF for not noticing something first or being able ot pull something off the way I had hoped, as I would expect a lot of you to be able to understand. Everyone deals with situations differently and on message boards nobody has any idea of other users personal situations at home which may influence there attitude. THATS ALL. However, I also think that some users on here could try a little harder with there help and general attitude when leaving feedback.

Rockhoppermedia's feedback is in my opinion how feedback should be left. Helpful and polite whilst still pointing out all the things that are wrong with my work in a way that still helps motivate you to continue. Simple as, that my opinion but there is some pure arrogance amongst the ranks of some of the users on this forum for sure. I have not noticed this in any of the other CG forums either.

I had been working on this image for a long time without a brake and clearly managed to miss certain things that I should not have. I noticed the perspective issue with the pyramid image long ago and updated it, but uploaded the wrong version. Now I have removed it and am working on large updates to the whole image.

As with regard to my comments about some of you being too technical with your answers. Thats not what I really meant to say. I have an advanced knowledge of photoshop and its functions and I expect some technical replies and answers when required. What I meant to say is that if you comment on something being wrong, then it would be much more helpful and uselful if you actually say exactly what it is you are talking about. Saying somethings boring or that you need to play with the background,midground elements really does not help anyone as you need to know more about those comments to correct them.

I did indeed struggle with perspective here for sure, but somehow got confused with the way the mountains and beach seem to curve round and almost back towards the camera(foreground). I will be studying perspective intensly at my first opportunity as I am aware how important it is. As with my last posts, people just don't seem to note that I have only ever done 4 mattes and this Matte consists of the ONLY painting I have ever done in my life too.

Once again, thanks to anyone and everyone who took the time to reply and help me out. Despite what you may think, your comments are indeed forcing me to get better and improve my compositions.

Regards,

Jay

[Quadart]

I also think that some users on here could try a little harder with there help and general attitude when leaving feedback.
The feedback and advice you are getting is FREE. You should be grateful that folks are taking their valuable time to try and help you with their replies. Instead of dictating how someone should spend more time being thoughtful about maximizing the usefulness of the info they impart to YOU, you should spend a little more time and effort to comprehend what people are telling you.

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