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D-3
08-10-2007, 08:36 PM
fresh news about GG engine.

a pdf of guerrilla games presentation com GC, explaining the defered rendering system to killzone 2 on ps3. (http://www.develop-conference.com/developconference/downloads/vwsection/Deferred%20Rendering%20in%20Killzone.pdf)

amazing!

Venkman
08-10-2007, 08:59 PM
Wow. Guerilla really knows PS3 tech.

davius
08-10-2007, 09:15 PM
Somebody knowns when is this game (intended) lanch date?

Wizdoc
08-10-2007, 09:28 PM
I think I understood only about a third of that. They R smarts.

One interesting thing I noticed that gaming graphics creation has moved a great deal towards the traditional non-realtime CG workflow. Instead of creating everything at once, they have a lot of different passes being created separately and then composited together with color corrections and such to achieve a desired look.

SheepFactory
08-10-2007, 09:52 PM
Somebody knowns when is this game (intended) lanch date?

Next year between january and june I think. I cant wait!

stevecullum
08-11-2007, 01:40 PM
Looks pretty good, but not leaps and bounds above Gear of War on the 360. Infact, I would say GOW looks better.

When are we going to see something that really shows the PS3 is 'twice as powerful' as M$'s creation?

NME-Se7eN
08-11-2007, 04:50 PM
God, why must the console wars ensue? Why is this not leaps and bounds above Gears Of War?

-This game is NOT running UE3. Most of Gears results came directly from that aspect.
-This game is not finished. Comparing games this early in lifecycle is basically like asking why the Sipderman 3 movie negatives don't look anywhere near as good Spiderman 2's finished product.
-PS3 is running 256 steady RAM which the games have easy access to, an additional 256 that require creative finagling and 124 of that is dedicated, at all times, to PS3 system resources. Xbox 360 has 512 RAM which is not only easier to access but also, as you can tell, more than PS3.
-Gears looked great but had a framerate about as steady as a Lindsey Lohan relationship. Apparently the framerate on Killzone, even at this early stage, dropped only on rare occassions. It's a trade-off. In other words, which do you prefer, a fast game or a very, very pretty one? Fortunately, UT3 on PS3 will be delivering both and mod support to boot.
-And finally, MS is not spelled with a $.

If all you're wanting is the best graphics ever, just buy Lair. Supposedly, haven't played it personally....

stevecullum
08-11-2007, 05:11 PM
Not trying to encite a console war here - just trying to find out why on paper the PS3 is clearly a more powerful system but in practice doesn't seem reaping the benefits.

As pointed out the limitations of texture memory is going to have a bearing on this. Maybe my expectations of 'next-gen' gaming were a bit too high. I sadly was taken in by the pre-rendered footage Sony touted around of Killzone 2 - should have known better...

SheepFactory
08-11-2007, 05:19 PM
Not trying to encite a console war here - just trying to find out why on paper the PS3 is clearly a more powerful system but in practice doesn't seem reaping the benefits.

As pointed out the limitations of texture memory is going to have a bearing on this. Maybe my expectations of 'next-gen' gaming were a bit too high. I sadly was taken in by the pre-rendered footage Sony touted around of Killzone 2 - should have known better...

I think it looks way better than any other game I have seen when its in motion. The art direction and lighting were simply amazing.

I dont know what the hell you guys expect this early in the consoles life. Crysis 2 perhaps? I think most have ridiculous expectations out of the current game consoles and get disappointed as a result.

NME-Se7eN
08-11-2007, 05:25 PM
Edited: Stack of shots removed since point was proved.

enbee
08-11-2007, 05:30 PM
You have to remember that the PS3 is still a fairly new system. Most of the currently released games were in production when PS3 hardware was not available. Because of this, a lot of games are essentially ports.

And I think the easy answer is the memory issue. Since the 360 has more, developers can simply throw more stuff in. However on the PS3 you really need a more complicated battle plan. Looks like the KillZone folks are doing a good job of that.

Looking at PS3 exclusive titles, (like KillZone, MGS4, Little Big Planet) I see a lot of very promising stuff.

stevecullum
08-11-2007, 05:37 PM
Now they are laid out side by side, it does look good. Mass Effect too. Anyways enough said about PS3 vs Xbox 360 graphics - the article was my primary interest too and my appologies if I steered things down the wrong track.

Laa-Yosh
08-11-2007, 05:56 PM
Killzone's main strength should be the dozens of dynamic lights which deferred shading allows. I'm not sure about Gears but I doubt there are too many in there. The differentiator for that game is the incredible quality and amount of work that went into the models and textures.

UrbanFuturistic
08-11-2007, 06:22 PM
It's early days for both the consoles and as most, if not all, developers are still getting their heads around the new hardware we're certainly not going to see the full capabilities for a few more years yet.

What impresses me is that they're currently only using half of the SPUs in the Cell processor which leaves plenty of room for their planned features of Ambient Occlusion and Dynamic Radiosity (I wouldn't expect that to use less than two SPUs to itself).

Anyway, I'm sure someone will come up with something else that blows us away on the 360 so I don't think we're going to see the end of this little competition anytime soon.

switchblade327
08-11-2007, 06:33 PM
You have to remember that the PS3 is still a fairly new system. Most of the currently released games were in production when PS3 hardware was not available. Because of this, a lot of games are essentially ports.


Not speaking in anything related to Killzone in particular (though we're obviously glad that people are excited!) but every console's first generation of games (the launch titles) aren't the best showpieces for that console. Accessibility to hardware is less of a problem then familiarity and experience with it. Just like we as artists can squeeze more functionality out of Maya or Max as we learn it's little tricks, coders can squeeze more out of hardware the better they know it. Especially now with so much multi-processing in not only home consoles but PCs now, I would expect the curve could be a little steeper then it used to be.

I remember when I first saw Dead or Alive 2 on the ps2 and it looked worse then the Dreamcast! A year or so later we had Metar Solid 2, which was a big improvement over any launch title. Time went by, devs figured out how to make the most of what it offered and now we have games like Okami, Shadow of the Collosus and God of War which are all just beautiful. The same thing has happened with every console ever released and will happen again with 360 and ps3.

EDIT: I hate these kinds of disclaimers but in this case I should probably add that my opinions here are my own and not my employer's blah blah blah.

anoon
08-11-2007, 10:29 PM
Deferred Rendering (or lighting, or shading) is the new hotness.

This technique isn't PS3 specific; you will see it in at least one title on the 360 that I know of first hand. There was actually an Xbox game (last gen,) that used a deferred rendering engine, believe it or not: One of the Shrek games... I think it was Shrek 2.

Deferred shading can really change the way an artist works and lights a scene. In general, lights with large falloff = bad. The fewer lights affecting each rendered pixel the better off you are. So in a given scene, lots and lots and lots of tiny lights perform better much better than a few lights with overlapping ranges.

RE: Killzone. I really enjoyed Killzone on the PS2 and PSP. Looking forward to the PS3 title too. (I need SOMETHING to play on that machine, afterall!)

jashiin
08-13-2007, 03:53 PM
Three hi-res in-game pics from Killzone 2 just uploaded to the Illuminate Labs gallery, you might want to check them out as well, got a bit nicer resolution than the pics in the pdf!

Killzone 2 pics (the 3 at the top) (http://www.illuminatelabs.com/gallery/bildertest)

At least i hope it's in-game, looking bloody nice!

Cheers,
Jens

BoostAbuse
08-13-2007, 08:34 PM
And I think the easy answer is the memory issue. Since the 360 has more, developers can simply throw more stuff in. However on the PS3 you really need a more complicated battle plan. Looks like the KillZone folks are doing a good job of that.


360 may have more system memory but the available VRAM is only 10mb which makes it next to impossible to generate a solid deferred lighting/rendering method given the nature of the VRAM size (average deferred rendering/lighting setup runs between 40-65mb of VRAM so on a 360 that equates to performing 4-6.5 passes just to achieve the desired lighting effect).

All I can say from a tech standpoint is, my hats off to Guerilla on this one as deferred rendering and lighting has been a huge step up in the next-gen world and for these guys to bring it into Killzone really shows some hardcore stuff :) We may just see what the PS3 is capable of yet.

Strang
08-13-2007, 09:45 PM
Deferred Rendering (or lighting, or shading) is the new hotness... <snip>...This technique isn't PS3 specific;

hotness, yes!

not simply for games either, pixar employed it for cars with their Lpics relighting system. this gave the lighter's realtime feedback on their lighting setups. all using cg versions of their renderman shaders in a standalone lighting application. the main technique used was caching the computations to image formats and deferred shading. the technique for compositing the framebuffers on the gpu is exciting for previs and layout for film too. imagine post effects like depth of field, vignetting, and color treatments for getting that shot as close to final as possible

http://graphics.pixar.com/Lpics/paper.pdf

steven

kiaran
08-14-2007, 01:01 AM
It's really nice to see someone taking the idea of deferred shading to the max. Judging by the recent gameplay trailers, the results will be fantastic.

D-3
08-14-2007, 04:19 AM
now this other pdf show how working on defered shading!!

i thik this come from gdc 2004

deffered shading in games (http://www.talula.demon.co.uk/DeferredShading.pdf)

cya guys!!

D-3
08-14-2007, 04:34 AM
Three hi-res in-game pics from Killzone 2 just uploaded to the Illuminate Labs gallery, you might want to check them out as well, got a bit nicer resolution than the pics in the pdf!

Killzone 2 pics (the 3 at the top) (http://www.illuminatelabs.com/gallery/bildertest)

At least i hope it's in-game, looking bloody nice!

Cheers,
Jens

Guerrilla Games have the turtle to make some bake texture..

jashiin
08-14-2007, 07:18 AM
As I understand it, Turtle has been used to bake all assets, light maps and spherical harmonics, but then again, I don't work for Guerrilla, so I can't know :)

quote from illuminatelabs.com: (http://www.illuminatelabs.com/press/newsarchive/made-with-turtle/view)
" Turtle has been used throughout the whole asset pipeline... "

Cheers,
Jens

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